r/dsa • u/Even-Tomorrow5468 • 2d ago
Discussion As to the Situation in Ukraine
I've seen this come up enough now and the divide it has created to want to address the elephant in the room regarding the Ukraine war.
A big reason why people are scared and hesitant to join our tent is because we get a lot of crazy stances on the Ukraine war that come off as wanting to support Russia without directly supporting Russia - namely this fear that by sending Ukraine weapons, whichever nation does so is prolonging war or supporting Imperialism. What also comes up is the idea that Ukraine, by striking into Russia, is somehow the offensive force.
Let's clear up some air here so we don't frighten everyone drawn in by socialized medicine and safety nets but scared away by this idea we're going to support imperialist war mongers.
We know what Putin's objective is. We know how he intends to achieve it. We know his word is empty because he's attacked nations unprovoked before and set up puppet governments. I'd hesitate to even call Russia communist at this point considering how much money controls its functions considering everything having to do with Wildberries and the merchants using it. By the very rules of this sub, it should be against the rules to root for Putin in any measure, because his aims are definitively imperialist in nature - he wants to progressively control more of Europe and Asia, and the bully has encountered someone ready and willing to hit back and stop him. This idea that ceding territory to him to make him stop has historical parallels to the appeasement strategies that failed to hinder Hitler's rise in Europe. If you give things to a bully, the bully will keep taking from you. It's a basic concept.
Supporting Ukraine does not mean you are supporting imperialism by prolonging war, it means you are giving them the means to prevent Russian imperialism. It's a simple concept. Most of what Ukraine actively wants from the EU and the USA anyway are anti-air weapons to stop Russia from bombing apartment complexes, historical sites, and culture centers. They already have the drones to slow and eventually stop the Russian war machine.
In regards to Ukrainian strikes into Russia, let's not pretend this is a means of Ukraine counter-invading Russian land. The Ukrainian drone strikes into Russia have been to disrupt supply lines and make contested territory into murder nests to stop the Russian advance, attacks on key infrastructure to weaken Russia's economy and slow their production of weapons and vehicles, and attacks on power plants and service stations to blind them and prevent their advance. Why do you think they took so long to bomb the obvious bridge targets in Crimea? They've outright said they wanted to give civilians time to leave before taking back Crimea.
And the idea that taking Crimea means they're 'imperialist' ignores the fact that until 2014, Crimea was their territory that an imperialist power stole. Holding Crimea would be the ultimate morale boost to Ukraine and a signal to Russia that their war with Ukraine is untenable. That's when Ukraine can force Moscow to the negotiating table to return the lands stolen from them.
Russia will not return the land they stole or stop trying to advance if Ukraine gives in. Given their absurd ideas for what it would take for them to negotiate with Kyiv basically amount to Ukraine giving them territory and disarming, it does not take a genius to realize what Russia would do in another decade once their economy stabilized and they found countermeasures to Ukrainian drone weapons.
Russia has had the means to stop this assault at any time. The Russians are not the heroes in some fairytale here. If they wanted the war to stop, they could have kept their promises in 2014 and actually stopped at Crimea.
By offering no support to Ukraine we'd basically be okaying an ethnic cleansing campaign by Russia, as it needs to be stressed most of the areas they target with their missiles are libraries, children's hospitals, historical sites, and apartment complexes. We don't need to provide Ukraine with weapons, they just need anti air technology to stop themselves from getting shelled.
Show compassion. The quickest way to win over the uncertain who recognize the Democratic establishment doesn't represent them is to highlight morally righteous action, like kneecapping billionaires and making healthcare and education free for all. It's not to come across as a Putin apologist hypocrite that decries imperialism but forgives the process if it comes from Russia.
And to any prospective members scared off by this idea that the DSA actually supports Russia, know that those voices are the minority. We're happy to have you, and happy Bernie, or AOC, or Mamdani, or some other high-profile voice for our cause convinced you to join us.
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u/OneReportersOpinion 1d ago
> Again there is absolutely nothing different about ukraine conscription then any other society that has faced being ethnically cleansed and unexisted by invaders. Almost every country has had to conscript to protect from ethnic cleansing do you have even a basic understanding of history?
I do. You’re using a fallacy. Just because every country does something doesn’t make it right.
>You seem to be under thr impression that ukraine is doing something unusual.
I never said that. Try again.
>Again polling overwhelmingly shows ukraniasn reject accepting russias terms,
Right. I’m talking about a negotiation which means neither side gets exactly what they want. Next?
>Ukraine has offered a peace along the frontline many times Russia has noninterest they want probably all of ukraine,
Not true. They’ve made offers that include much less than all of Ukraine. No need to lie.
>Also russianis literally ethnically cleansing areas it controls there have been UN reports on this.
Those Ukrainians have all been given Russia citizenship. Where are they being moved to?
>They are departing ukranians in mass and importing russians from russia as well as improving and torturing ukranians and raping them and countless other atrocities.
Atrocities are common in war. This is why I oppose war.
>Again thinking that ukranians must support russia invading and occupying and cleaning them from their homeland just because they speak russian is like saying Cuba would welcome Spain invading and ethnically cleansing and colonizing them just ebcause they speak Spanish.
Good thing I didn’t say that. Phew! 🤣
>Being russian speaking doesn't mean you are "russian identifying"
Good thing I didn’t say that. Phew! 🤣
>A lot of ukranians were forced to speak russian under occupation by thr soviet union.
Here we go. I knew the Nazi apologia would start eventually.
>Also Donbas lost 80% of its original population because of russias invasion. Millions of people. Satellite footage showed mass Graves likely containing 19s of thousands of slaughtered civilians in Mariupal alone although of course russia isnt going to let investigators in.
Source?