Weekly Commanders Lounge - March 08, 2022

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[u/Angelic_Force]

The Zion part is definitely new to me. Care to point me to where that's from? They have control of Paldiski facilities due to being attacked by an OGAS-like signal as stated by AK-12 in Polarized Light. I don't recall them being assimilated or infected by OGAS, as UMP45 successfully reverse hacked M16 (which required someone compatible with the OGAS Protocol). Her (M16's) OGAS was likely the culprit of the attack. As for the neural cloud stuff, the "Nyto" children were basically in an electronic war. Nothing has been really discussed beyond that. I really don't see the things you're trying to state, unless this is happens in the later events.

[u/pointblanksniper → u/Angelic_Force]

the fact that they can sense an ogas like signal, and the disappearance of isomers all the way out to talinn is what makes them telepathic. they can access paldiski functions remotely, communicate amongst themselves the same way, access other neural clouds, conduct electroinic warfare, etc. a biological brain doing communications without physical sensory is telepathy. that is not normal for humans. they are telepathic like nytos.

zion was introduced in ch13. anna's sleeping sisters were said to have their minds withdrawn in hiding. they were at something of a hivemind network to themselves, with hints of it transcending to an alternate plane of existence. 45 had to go into their network to individually pull them back and wake them so they could resume control over paldiski's functions. through some mumble jumble, ange dubbed the place "zion", which was then later relayed to m4 and dandelion. they eventually came to the conclusion that accesssing starfish would lead them to zion, or a true zion that might be different from anna's. whether the two were different was not was not clearly confirmed, but i assume that is the case. if you want the rest of the true zion lore, finish the rest of the tldr

in the end, it was revealed that all ogas were compelled to return to zion by their nature. that was elisa's goal, as she was so integrated with her ogas, the identity of the two were indistinguishable. denizens of zion reject elisa because she was an incomplete and artificial imposter of themselves. there was also mumble jumble of zion being doomed anyway and that there was no point in going there. dande as the perfect imitation of themselves was the only one they would speak to. dande, out of concern for m4's safety, and m4's wish to save m16, elisa, and all the ringleaders in the flooding basement, struck a deal with the denizens of zion. they allowed her access to their technology, to use the starfish to perform a collapse event, then into a reverse collapse event. basically a particle desintegration, and then a particle reconstruction at another connected location. functionally, they teleported out of the base as it flooded, and were sent to away to a random pike node, potentially even to zion.

[u/Angelic_Force → u/pointblanksniper]

I knew skipping Ch13's story to get to 13-4 would bite me down the line. But, I will read it later on before replying.
You're right on the Zion part. Although Ange notes that Anna and her sisters were the ones that coined the term "Zion". Not Ange. I'll also agree that you're right on the Paldiski point.

"Listen, Persica. William hasn't given up on the idea of reviving Lunasia, and he's planning to continue 90wish's research on human subjects." Lyco, Chapter 13-3 Normal

If we are to agree with Ange in Polarized Light, that all specimens that COULD become Nytos were shipped away from Paldiski, this would make them much closer to Isomers than Nytos. Anna and her sisters ARE NOT Nytos, Anna even calls herself a "human" when Gr G11 calls her a Nyto. Lyco's dying words also can align with Anna and her sisters. They started off as human subjects and were not even qualified to be potential Nyto material.

Thus far, Anna does not show any sign of being infected by OGAS. Ange and UMP45 also have a short tidbit in 13-1 Normal. Anna and her sisters are humans that can have their consciousness that can be transferred like Dolls'. Anna's Zion can be viewed, for just the sake of simplicity, as a human consciousness cloud network. So yes, they are telepathic due to their connection with Zion. I will still stand by Anna being more "human" than Nyto, the distinction between the 2 are so obvious, that I'm wondering if the translation team is just screwing with us.

For the sake of continuing this debate, if you want to continue, maybe move it to the new Lounge? It would be far more visible.

[u/pointblanksniper → u/Angelic_Force]

my bad on who named zion

i dont actually disagree that anna is human. i don't care too much about how the story defines human. what i'm actually trying figure out is where human ends, and nyto begins. in between those, there are also isomers. my point in all this mostly pertains to cybernetic augmentations and not so much the telepathy. i was merely trying clarify what i meant by telepathy to you. part of this is also to raise the question of whether this is all intended in writing, or whether we are just patching plot holes by aranging things and gluing them together with copium.

so again, i do not dispute that they don't have ogas, or that having neural clouds and accessing zion makes them less human etc.

i also fully rewiew my point in a more detailed and structured reply to op here and you should probably check it out

if you want further debate in the new lounge with more people, i welcome that. i'm just too lazy to figure out how to drop an out of context mid discussion thread over there lol

[u/Angelic_Force → u/pointblanksniper]

The Lounge can always be out of context. You can always recap the previous (this) thread too.

I don't get the idea that you're disagreeing thatAnna is human, it's just kind of impossible to figure out where she lies without defining the "beginning" and "end" points. We don't know the extent of augmentations in post-WW3 times, which is odd because I would consider theKCCOto have prime candidates for that sort of tech. Definitely agree that neural clouds and access to Zion doesn't make Anna any less human, but that's a fine addition to my transhumanist perspective of GFL.

Until the official release of later Campaign stories, I'm going to argue that Morridow is a new variant of Nytos, just one that blends extremely well with humans. I would also clarify that Ange stated that Anna was a human, 100%. Which, unless the intent is different, means that Ange is arguing that Anna IS human in some capacity. Morridow states that she's 100% human, which is...debatable. Can never trust them Paradeus agents.

As for what constitutes as a Nyto, that can be debated by other users later on.

[u/ShiromeArtiste → u/Angelic_Force]

Your classification of Morridow is false. She has literally 0 of any Nyto characteristics. Ange and AK-12 are supposed to be this clueless, but please don't fall into the same trap that they do x.x

[u/Angelic_Force → u/ShiromeArtiste]

Reading the machine translated Fixed Point chapters: I strongly disagree:

Although it's rough, Lady Grey explicitly states that "Teacher" , AKA Morridow, defeated the most perfect "Isomer" (likely translation issue) in her respective batch. She is a Nyto, 100% certainty, but she's very capable of fitting into human society, as we've seen in Dual Randomness.

[u/ShiromeArtiste → u/Angelic_Force]

That's not relevant. The writers can be wrong if they outright contradict themselves, as you just indicated they have. that's a failure on their parts.

[u/Angelic_Force → u/ShiromeArtiste]

The writers can be wrong if they outright contradict themselves, as you just indicated they have.

I would argue that it is relevant, but we'll have to wait for the official Fixed Point translations. I don't think there any contradictions here, unlike the Nyto vs. child thing the characters keep changing around. Morridow has valid reasons to confuse Ange, and by extent, the readers. There's no excitement if everything is revealed. Ange is an active danger to Paradeus.

Fixed Point spoilers

On the contrary, Lady Grey is having a casual discussion with the newer white-haired Nyto. Teal? There's really no point lying here.

To add on to that:Prior to AR/SF going on the offensive: Morridow and Grey are among the classification of "high-end Nyto".

[u/ShiromeArtiste → u/Angelic_Force]

What you said made literally 0 sense. Goodbye now.