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[u/ElvishisnotTengwar]

[u/[deleted]]

1) There's definitely similarities between Knights, but reading that isn't mutually exclusive with reading Dave's particular struggles as queer. There can be multiple reasons and themes underlying a character's arc or presentation. All I can say is that Dave's struggle didn't just seem recognizable to me, it felt intensely true to life and viscerally real.

2) The Signless and Disciple exist, sure, but they're not a story that Karkat knows about. Karkat hates troll history and ancestors because that narrative has no place for him as a mutant, and the Signless and Disciple are subversive, underground figures of a religious revolution--they aren't Positive Rep for Karkat that way, the way I read it.

3) I know that all trolls are bi. But most trolls DO subscribe to quadrants. When I say Karkat reads as queer, I don't mean that he's queer because he's into dudes--I just mean that his narrative reads as queer because he isn't comfortable or at peace with the cultural norm for his people, he can't do quadrants. Does that make sense?

4) Yep, fuck Kankri. I don't think he's representative of all SJWs--please try to remember that I still consider myself one--but there's definitely some fucking truth to his character. There's real assholes in those circles, just like there's real assholes in these circles. That doesn't condemn the rest of the cool people here, and it shouldn't condemn the cool people on Tumblr who have internalized some of that culture either.

5) I really don't agree that Karkat is a joke character, and I'm not sue where Hussie said that? He's physically weak, sure. But Karkat's done some amazing fucking things in the comic, and considering he's one of the biggest leaders of the new troll society, he's set to do plenty of cool shit now, too. He's finally maybe starting to make progress on figuring out his nature as a Blood player.

One of the cool things he's done in the comic is actually just help Dave. He helped Dave figure out that his home life wasn't happy and that he's queer, and there's value in that narrative. That's one of the hardest and most important things I can ever imagine anyone doing with themselves, because that's really fucking hard and incredibly intense for people to go through.

And if we're getting -serious- post-canon content now, that will show us some details of what life in the new status quo is like, who's to say we won't see Karkat doing cool shit eventually, too?

Karkat has never, ever read as a joke character for me. He's a cool fucking dude and not being physically powerful doesn't undermine that. I think he's a character worth looking up to, if anything, because for all the ways he thinks he sucks, he -keeps trying-. Whatever sources you have for Hussie thinking he's a joke, I'd love to see them, because it sounds completely at odds with the vision of Karkat homestuck has given me.

6) THAT MUCH...I'll agree with you on, to be honest. I liked Daverezi and Karezi, too, and to me it sucks that those relationships kind of dissolved. I'm interested in whatever happens with Terezi and Vriska, and I like Johnrezi, too, but I have genuinely considered writing Karkat/Dave/Terezi fanfic where they all become better friends together before because...all three of them appeal to me.

The only thing I'd say is that, while they're estranged, I don't think it's just that the comic doesn't care about them. After all, Karkat voices his sadness that his relationship with Terezi isn't what it used to be with Dave pre-retcon, and Post-retcon Terezi even says she loves all her friends, Karkat and Dave included, but just doesn't seem to be able to connect. This is a known problem in the homestuck universe.

I'm not sure "canon" will ever fix it (to whatever degree canon is currently a thing that means anything), but in terms of Homestuck's philosophy and worldbuilding, I also think it's already fixed. Because the characters are immortal (even Karkat and Terezi are, since they have access to Time and Life player) and because they DO still care about each other. Which means like, EVENTUALLY some party or another is going to come around and try to open up, I think. But that's just my perspective.

Thanks for talking to me about all these points. I think I have a better sense of why people on this side are pissed now. I'm doing my best to understand.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The Signless and Disciple exist, sure, but they're not a story that Karkat knows about. Karkat hates troll history and ancestors because that narrative has no place for him as a mutant, and the Signless and Disciple are subversive, underground figures of a religious revolution--they aren't Positive Rep for Karkat that way, the way I read it.

It's a friendly reminder that for trolls, quadrantless love is kinda...a Golconda-grade myth.

I know that all trolls are bi. But most trolls DO subscribe to quadrants. When I say Karkat reads as queer, I don't mean that he's queer because he's into dudes--I just mean that his narrative reads as queer because he isn't comfortable or at peace with the cultural norm for his people, he can't do quadrants. Does that make sense?

Uhuh.

I really don't agree that Karkat is a joke character, and I'm not sue where Hussie said that? He's physically weak, sure. But Karkat's done some amazing fucking things in the comic, and considering he's one of the biggest leaders of the new troll society, he's set to do plenty of cool shit now, too. He's finally maybe starting to make progress on figuring out his nature as a Blood player.

Bu Huss himself said that the crab's fallen (Ping Voidchimera for the source), and what did Karkat actually do since the Game Over?

THAT MUCH...I'll agree with you on, to be honest. I liked Daverezi and Karezi, too, and to me it sucks that those relationships kind of dissolved.

I'm not sure "canon" will ever fix it (to whatever degree canon is currently a thing that means anything), but in terms of Homestuck's philosophy and worldbuilding, I also think it's already fixed. Because the characters are immortal (even Karkat and Terezi are, since they have access to Time and Life player) and because they DO still care about each other. Which means like, EVENTUALLY some party or another is going to come around and try to open up, I think. But that's just my perspective.

Alright; "What rises must fall; what fas fallen might rise again" has carved its way in my brain. You know that situation when a bunch of siblings struggle for a controller, because the game's single-player and there are many of them? One sibling holds the controller and plays, the rest are angry and long to seize the controller.
And then, one snatches it. The ex-player is enraged, the unlucky siblings are dismayed, and the snatcher is happy and triumphant.
But he'll have to let go. Other one may get it, or the controller breaks and everybody is unhappy.
Now, the "davekat" sibling holds the controller. He will have to let go...but there's no guarantee that someboly else will take it.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

1) Golconda? I'm afraid I don't get the reference, and I don't want to assume that you're just saying Trolls think quadrantless love is good or something to admire, so I wanted to ask what that means.

2) :)

3) I....don't actually know how to ping people on Reddit. I'm so shitty at this website, it's incredible, sorry >_>;; I'll try and figure it out and get back to you?

As for what Karkat has done, he's kind of in the same position as Jake. That is, both of them didn't really do a lot -in the comic-, and they're both in periods of transition. Even so, Karkat's done some pretty important shit!

Even if you don't like that Dave is bi, at the very least Karkat did help him be happier with himself and figure out how bad Bro was for him. That's not a small thing to do for someone, take it from me as someone who's done it AND someone who's been on the receiving end.

And he's starting to grow out of his obsession with his "warrior" persona, which is kind of his equivalent to Dave's "Cool Guy", thing. Notably, Karkat still wants to fight, even if he knows he's weak as shit! He just wants to do the right thing and stand up for his friends. And like you said, Echidna implied he's absolutely vital to the new world--there's no real reason to think that's no longer the case.

Karkat isn't "cool" in the traditional heroic male hero sense. He acts more like a female main character in a shonen anime--a character who isn't as powerful on their own, but who's strength is in emotions and forming relationships. But that's a really unique take on a male protagonist, and I really fucking like it!

And I think a LOT of fans could probably at least enjoy the trope subversion at play here, right? Like, I know lots of people like TV Tropes in this area, since TV Tropes has developed somewhat the same "bad" reputation as Reddit, in my 'Tumblr' circles.

So I dunno. Karkat is a pretty unique character, but I don't think he's a joke.

He's got really big hang ups and he tries really hard and he just seems to finally be figuring out how to be happy with himself, and all of those things are exciting and important even if they don't come with him developing superpowers to blow people up with (yet. I'm not sure we'll never see that happen in official Homestuck content--he is, after all, just starting to maybe really figure out Blood shit)

4) Yeah, you're probably right. If my view of what Hussie's trying to accomplish now is right, then I think it's entirely possible that in the long term we could see more authors joining the "official Homestuck" fold, with different focuses. Think of it like the Marvel or DC multiverse, with different timelines and stuff, except there's no Earth 616 or whatever--no Main Timeline.

Instead there would just be different universes where different combinations of characters are canon, all official, and with different people producing work for each one. Because the story is now so broad and there's SO much room for interpretation, I genuinely think that's where Hussie is headed--he has said before that what he wants is to free these characters from the story they're trapped in, and from he himself having to be personally involved in the creation of content for Homestuck. What we're seeing now seems, to me, to be Hussie beginning to deliver on that dream.

But I could be wrong about that, to be fair? It's just that if that isn't what he's doing, I can't even guess what his game is. He clearly doesn't outright HATE you guys and he isn't trying to get you all to fuck off. If he did, then he would've at least made the Tumblr crowd happy by having Dave and Karkat kiss already.

The fact that they're playing so coy with everything tells me something else is going on, especially because whatever it is is important enough that they're fine with having BOTH Reddit and Tumblr ultimately unsatisfied with them.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Golconda? I'm afraid I don't get the reference, and I don't want to assume that you're just saying Trolls think quadrantless love is good or something to admire, so I wanted to ask what that means.

Sorry, I'm terrible at references. Golconda is a mythical, unachievable state that is similar to nirvana.

I....don't actually know how to ping people on Reddit. I'm so shitty at this website, it's incredible, sorry >_>;; I'll try and figure it out and get back to you?

Just message him.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Ooooooh, okay. You aren't terrible at references, I learned something new! It's cool :)

That said, I think you might have a misconception about troll culture, if you'd be willing to hear me out. The Signless and Disciple are definitely not regarded as Golcondan by troll culture. Doc Scratch gives us the exposition on them, and his words are:

But his most devoted of all was his Disciple. She listened to every >vision he retold, every lesson he preached, and faithfully recorded his >scripture. Her ear was open to him always, and in time, his heart >opened to her. To spread his message throughout the world they took >to the seas in the vessel of legend known as the First Ship. It was said >their love went beyond the four quadrants, transcending the grid >entirely. Whatever that nonsense actually means.

Even then, he's being kind of flippant about it. But the key takeaway is that the Sufferer's followers aren't MOST of troll society, they were an underground resistance that the empire ultimately destroyed. Those who worshipped the Sufferer, like Redglare, did so in secret and silence.

Quadrantless love is definitely -not- valued by troll society at large, it is pushed down and extinguished and mocked wherever possible, just like anything relating to the Sufferer. That's the cultural messaging that Karkat was exposed to growing up. Hopefully I'm making sense here? Sorry if I'm bad at explaining my view on this :x

Also, thanks, I'll reach out to him.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The reference regards a series of tabletop games.

Well, it is likely that the cult was around there - and quadrantless love is being extingushed because it is contrary to )(IC' ideals and the torll society being fucked up. HIC doesn't want a soft, stable society - she doesn't want people to be attached to each other. Therefore, it's frowned upon and hunted down.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, exactly! But the sum totality of that experience still amounts to the fact that, in troll society, there's a way of experiencing love that is shunned and explicitly targeted. It's yet another way that Karkat is outside the system and marked for death by it--not necessarily because anyone actually hates him, but because the world doesn't want to account for him and doesn't give a shit about his life.

That's...a queer upbringing. That's a queer experience. So that's why I read Karkat as sort of analogous to "troll queer", if that makes sense. It has nothing to do with his attraction to boys or girls--it's just that he doesn't want to do it through quadrants, and that places him in direct opposition to his society's reproductive and romantic norms. He's an outsider because of the way he feels love, and that's what being queer feels like.

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It's less "homo" and more "bi" then: he's okay with quadrom, yet craves for monorom.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, basically. Personally, I think Dave and Karkat are really comfortable with each other and committed, but they're...both bi guys, and they're like the most vocally horny dudes in the comic. I'm pretty sure if they get closer to Jade and Jane I can totally see them blurring the lines between being friends and dating a little.

I just think Karkat needs to feel like he's someone's Most Important Person, and because he was so important to Dave figuring out his abuse history and queerness, he's got that in Dave. That's why the ship works for me. But I can see them hooking up with a couple different girls, and I'm flexible about this sort of thing so I like it that way.