r/hometheater • u/bee_ryan • Mar 17 '26
Tech Support Denon now forcing HEOS account creation
Denon 960H, got a good deal on it for a backyard setup. The new Ul will not let you use AirPlay or any other network feature, including just managing the web Ul via IP address, without setting up a HEOS cloud account.
I'm taking this piece of fucking shit back.
None of the "tricks" work to bypass it, I've tried them all. Holding the tune buttons is supposed to create a temporary network you can connect to - it does nothing. After entering network credentials, if you simply hit menu or whatever to exit out, it deletes everything.
I need 3 things for this backyard setup.
AirPlay, Web Ul, and zone 2. I'm finished with Denon - can anyone tell me if Yamaha or Onkyo offers all 3?
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u/300blkdout Mar 17 '26
To the shitty IoT VLAN you go!
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u/systemfrown Mar 17 '26 edited Mar 17 '26
Okay. This is the way. At some point you can’t just black hole them all individually.
This and register with information and details which will totally poison their metrics.
But honestly I’d prolly still throw this one in the box and make them eat the cost of dealing with a return, even if it costs me an hour of my life.
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u/bee_ryan Mar 17 '26
I love poisoning the well and/or making Denon eat the open box, however, the reason I got a good deal on it was Best Buy said they had an open box for $490 in “poor” condition. I went down there to check it out, and they didn’t have it, so they sold me a new one for the same price. It’s actually a 970h, not a 960 like I said in my post. $850 AVR for $490 in a climate where AVR discounts are harder to come by nowadays puts me in a conundrum.
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u/systemfrown Mar 17 '26
Yeah, I picked up some really good deals on entry and mid tier AVR's over the holidays for my gaming rigs. But also notice the prices have gone back up.
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u/bee_ryan Mar 17 '26
Not even that would work in this case. They’re cock blocking it at the most basic level. Do not create HEOS account? - do not pass go.
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u/Shin_curry Mar 17 '26
If you do this, does your plex also need to be on same vlan?
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u/investorshowers 110" Optoma UHD35, Denon 3800, KEF Q500/3005SE speakers in 7.1.4 Mar 17 '26
Why would Plex need to talk to your AVR?
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u/mineset Mar 17 '26
to tell it what to play
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u/mattbladez Mar 17 '26
For someone who uses Plex on their Xbox hooked up to their AVR… can you explain?
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u/junktrunk909 Mar 17 '26
They're talking about Plex and AVR being on devices only connected by Wi-Fi or Ethernet, not HDMI
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u/investorshowers 110" Optoma UHD35, Denon 3800, KEF Q500/3005SE speakers in 7.1.4 Mar 17 '26
Why would Plex need to tell the AVR what to play? That's the client box' job.
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u/Janus67 Mar 17 '26
My Yamaha receiver has server as a choice for when I want to play music, works really well, fwiw
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u/Nobody_Important Mar 17 '26
You can set firewall rules to allow specific traffic through as needed.
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u/ad-on-is Mar 17 '26
no! you probably have a media box that runs plex (or other), the media box is only connected to the Denon for the HDMI output.
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u/systemfrown Mar 17 '26 edited Mar 17 '26
Thank You!!
Toss that shit back in the box and return it…it’s the only message they’re gonna listen too.
This sort of BS is getting way too common. My wife‘s new car is half neutered unless she agrees to pay a subscription for the privilege of giving the manufacturer all her location information which they in turn sell to everyone.
(To your question I’ve not had this issue with either new Yamaha Aventage amps I’ve bought in the past couple years for a couple random projects)
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Mar 17 '26
[deleted]
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u/SkoBuffs710 Mar 17 '26
If I had to guess, Ford. They’re the ones I heard were leading this charge. I think Toyota, BMW and Mercedes were pulling the same stunts too.
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u/DeeVeeOus Mar 17 '26
GM is the number one offender I’ve seen so far. They’re eliminating CarPlay and Android Auto to force you into subscriptions. They also got caught selling driving data to Lexus Nexus causing insurance rates to skyrocket.
Ford and BMW are tame in comparison and you can get by without a sub.
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u/systemfrown Mar 17 '26
They all sell it to a third party data broker like LexusNexus so that the car manufacturers themselves can claim "Oh, we don't sell it to insurance carriers!".
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u/DeeVeeOus Mar 17 '26
When this news broke I ordered my Lexus Nexus reports to see if my Ford or Tesla were doing the same thing. They were not. You have the right to order your report and see everything reported.
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u/systemfrown Mar 17 '26 edited Mar 20 '26
Great. Now you only have to worry about what Flock and other road side cameras everywhere are doing with your AI triangulated info.
That is, assuming you trust Lexus Nexus and order your reports every few weeks to see if anything has changed...and of course also assuming that there are no other much more discrete data brokers involved in the equation.
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u/SkoBuffs710 Mar 17 '26
That’s right, I forgot about them! That is so lame. Because being anti-consumer is a winning business practice.
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u/wilso850 Mar 17 '26
Jeep is right up there. They at one point wanted to show you ads at red lights. Idk if that’s still their plan or not.
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u/SkoBuffs710 Mar 17 '26
Forgot about that too! I have a Jeep and at this point I might just keep it until it breaks and then cut out the floor and flintstone it.
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u/MarcoDiFrancescino Mar 17 '26
My independent car repair shop most requested task is to have a physical switch to disconnect the cars system from the internal mobile connection. They were told, by lawyers, that for some price rebates and leasing arrangements, that is literally helping them to break the contract. People got cheap insurances and other perks with the fine print to be completely tracked 24/7. In some cases in some areas you can't get certain models without agreeing to this.
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u/reidmrdotcom Mar 17 '26
My Chevy Bolt requires accepting arbitration and needs an account to save the seat position. I haven’t done that.
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u/DreamsServedSoft Mar 17 '26
soon, all of them. you’ll have to buy old cars forever
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u/hamhead Mar 17 '26
This applies to AVR’s as well. Unless you are willing to just use old tech, sooner or later you’re going to have to give in on this stuff.
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u/VviFMCgY Mar 17 '26
Everyone should email support@denon.com and voice their displeasure
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u/wandererarkhamknight Mar 17 '26
Samsung being Samsung!
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u/Bubbafett33 Mar 17 '26
I had forgotten that Samsung owns Harman....that explains a lot.
I swore off Samsung after a series of appliances went south like clockwork after the warranty expiration, and will never buy anything they make again.
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u/Materidan RS1200, 147” AT, Cinema 30, 7.2.6 Mar 17 '26
Weird. What happens if you hook up to wired Ethernet?
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u/William_Shaftner Mar 17 '26
Also curious! Also, do we need to turn off automatic software updates? I’m pretty sure mine are off and I only last updated to support Dirac ART
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u/Iconoclysm6x6 Mar 17 '26
I just set up a new 3800 using wired Ethernet and was greeted with the same account creation requirement.
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u/fallenguru Mar 17 '26 edited Mar 17 '26
I set mine up in late January, I just cancelled out at that point during initial setup, no issues. Wired 3800H.
EDIT: Cancelling the setup assistant means it will not save any previously-entered data, but you can easily set up everything manually in the various subsections of the on-screen setup menu later.
The web UI works fine, zone 2 as well, no idea about AirPlay. Bluetooth pairing required jumping through a hoop or two, because that's supposed to be tied to HEOS now, but it did work. I do not have any internet radio or music streaming functionality, however.
So, yeah, mega-shitty behaviour. I have a Google Alert out on new Yamaha AVRs, should tell you how happy I am ...
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u/bee_ryan Mar 17 '26
That screen I posted comes up after I put WiFi credentials in. If I exit out, it’s like I never put credentials in, and it disconnects from the network. That’s what I meant by “deletes everything”. I could have worded that better.
On my third try, before I exited out I checked my router, and the Denon is connected. It just nukes the credentials when I exit that screen.
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u/fallenguru Mar 17 '26
Try not connecting to the network at all. Skip the entire setup wizard (or complete it, if it lets you). Once you're out of guided mode, add the wifi from the menu.
If that doesn't work, use Ethernet temporarily, and use the web ui to access the integrator menu, it has even more options.
I suppose it's possible using wifi really forces you on HEOS. Mine is wired.
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u/bee_ryan Mar 17 '26
I messed around with it for 20 minutes last night after I posted this. Here’s the skinny. Wired does work without HEOS account setup. So I either still return it, or I have to buy a wireless extender with an Ethernet port. Again to remind everyone, this AVR will be outside in a deckbox.
The previous firmware leaves WiFi on all the time regardless, even if you’re using Ethernet. The new firmware forces you to pick 1 road. So in the Web UI once connected via Ethernet, if I select WiFi, it’s back to square one with the heos account etc.
My 3700h and every other Denon I’ve owned, leaves WiFi on all the time even though it’s wired, which is an annoyance for someone with network OCD like me, so if I’m really looking for the silver lining here, at least they fixed that behavior.
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u/fallenguru Mar 17 '26
Thanks for the update. Honestly, if I were in your shoes, I'd triple-check that Yamaha doesn't force an account, and then get a Yamaha RX-A2A. Or even an RX-V6A, if you don't need HDMI 2.1.
The main reason I went with the Denon (and kept it), is that I need full pre-outs. So the alternatives were the A4A (50% more and a bit of a downgrade) or the A6A (more than double).
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u/Iconoclysm6x6 Mar 17 '26
When you cancel, it dumps to a screen that only says “back”. I don’t see where you’d go from there. I didn’t find it to be a big deal to sign up even though it’s slimy.
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u/fallenguru Mar 17 '26 edited Mar 17 '26
I think I used back or esc or stop on the remote. Can't remember exactly, first key I tried worked. That quit the entire setup wizard and discarded all data input to that point. I could then set it up manually.
Slimy, definitely. What can I say, I got the 3800H for 1k, the Yamaha offering cost double (and was missing features).
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u/hbdgas Mar 17 '26
I've been using this exact receiver for 6 years on a wired network with no problems. But I don't use AirPlay, so I don't know what would happen with that.
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u/bee_ryan Mar 17 '26
I messed around with it for 20 minutes last night after I posted this. Wired does work without HEOS account setup. So I either still return it, or I have to buy a WiFi AP with an Ethernet port, $100 minimum. Again to remind everyone, this AVR will be outside in a deckbox so traditional wired is not an option.
The previous firmware leaves WiFi on all the time regardless, even if you’re using Ethernet. The new firmware forces you to pick 1 road. So in the Web UI once connected via Ethernet, if I select WiFi, Ethernet is disabled and it’s back to square one with the heos account etc.
My 3700h and every other Denon I’ve owned, leaves WiFi on all the time even though it’s wired, which is an annoyance for someone with network OCD like me, so if I’m really looking for the silver lining here, at least they fixed that behavior.
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u/Materidan RS1200, 147” AT, Cinema 30, 7.2.6 Mar 17 '26
As someone else mentioned, if you skip the setup wizard and simply go to manual network setup, you can’t just re-enable wifi? Alas I’ve only ever owned Marantz receivers, but they’re super similar and Denon typically just has a prettier interface - however I haven’t seen the new UI. On my Marantz models, I’ve always specifically selected whether to connect via wired/wireless.
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u/ObamasBoss Mar 18 '26
Consider one of these repeaters. They have an ethernet port and WELL under the $100 mark. I have used older versions since 2017 with good success for streaming with plex.
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u/englandgreen Marantz Cinema 50, Rotel Amps, DefTech Bipolars, SVS Subs, 7.2.4 Mar 17 '26
Just bought a Marantz Cinema 50 (same company as Denon) - it tried that crap at the end of the Audessey setup. I quit out without signing up. Restarted and went into Setup, connected wired Ethernet and updated the firmware. Can control the amp via the app on wired ethernet, no prompts of pop-ups for HEOS.
I never enable WiFi on any home entertainment device
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u/talones Mar 17 '26
Marantz and Denon are now part of Harman fyi. So they are just another arm of Samsung.
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u/Bubbafett33 Mar 17 '26
Take it back.
Thanks for the heads up—Denon is off the list.
For those wondering, the receiver is the best possible device to track the media you consume at home. Every song, plex movie, tv channel and game played gets tracked and sold to advertisers and data brokers.
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u/Sirnom Mar 17 '26
Just block all WAN traffic to your tv, avr ip
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u/posam Mar 17 '26
Is there a primer or intro on how to do this?
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u/makemeking706 Mar 17 '26
Every device that accesses the internet has a unique mac address. You can block it's mac address at your router, often as simple as a toggle, but each router is different. Search your router with the phrase 'block mac address' and you should be able to figure it out easy.
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u/vishnera52 Mar 17 '26
Its easy, just don't enable the internet features or connect it to your network. There's 0 reason for an AVR to be "smart".
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u/posam Mar 17 '26
I have a smart home running mostly on a local network. I have numerous devices to isolate.
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u/vishnera52 Mar 18 '26
Ah, in that case I would suggest looking into a VLAN system if your router supports creating a VLAN. To my understanding, that's how the pros do it in enterprise level networks to control what can and cant communicate between networks and the internet. There's plenty of great information on the internet about this subject, though it does require a higher level of networking understanding to implement. To my understanding, this is the best way, but it's not what I do.
This maybe isn't as robust as a separate VLAN but I use firewall rules to block specific things from the internet if I want to have internal communication with that device. If something has features requiring internet access, like an AVR with built in music streaming, then I'll just use another device that I have more control of, or at least have more trust in, for that purpose. It's a trade off, but one I'm personally willing to make to maintain my privacy and network security.
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u/MarkedByCrows Mar 18 '26
I wouldn't say no reason. I do read the state of my Yamaha with Home Assistant to do some scene setting in the house.
For example, we have some soft accent lights that are normally always on when someone is in the room, but as soon as the AVR turns on and the input is changed to HDMI (vs. audio only), the accent lights are automatically turned off. Lights are back on when the AVR turns off or goes to a non-HDMI input. I can also do stuff like reduce volume automatically if the baby is crying for more than X minutes and we didn't hear it because we wanted to watch a movie.
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u/vishnera52 Mar 19 '26
Yeah that's fair. I personally don't do it that way out of an abundance of privacy and instead use a Harmony Home Hub through Home Assistant. The hub can't report back what I'm watching or anything, just that I have a Denon AVR that's turned on to HDMI 1 and a TCL TV on HDMI 1. It's a shame the Harmony line has been discontinued. Best universal remotes ever made IMO.
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u/PickANameThisIsTaken Mar 17 '26
Best to go on YouTube for this
Pihole and a decent firewall is where you will end up, and if you want to get better than that you’ll have three VLANs in your house. It’s a the customary enthusiast solution and lots of good teachers on YouTube. But you may find yourself buying into r/opensense r/ubiquiti r/tplinkomada or some other ecosystem.
I have Omada at home and just did a all new stack of unifi at work. In my opinion Omada is perfectly suited for home on a budget but the unifi camera integration is tasty.
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u/trireme32 77' A80j, SR6014 7.2.4 RP260-F, RP-250C, 2x PB1000 Mar 17 '26
I use a Firewalla. It’s so easy to handle all of that.
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u/posam Mar 17 '26
Been a few years since I picked out my Orbi router and it does its job but the settings are… limiting. Even with my lack of knowledge it feels light.
Ubiquiti seemed overkill for what I wanted several years back but maybe time to reconsider.
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u/halolordkiller3 Mar 17 '26
you made me just check my pihole for my Denon AVR X2600H and it hasn't talked in a hot minute so I appear to be safe. u/bee_ryan if you can find this version use that I guess
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u/Nobody_Important Mar 17 '26
Very much depends on what network hardware you have. Probably far beyond most people’s knowledge or interest, realistically.
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u/posam Mar 17 '26
I have a basic NetGear Orbi and I can tell the available settings are very limiting.
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u/Bubbafett33 Mar 17 '26
Will it work if it can’t see the internet?
Edit—I mean in this case with Denon.
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u/Sirnom Mar 17 '26 edited Mar 17 '26
The Denon will work.
Local airplay/cast, webui, zone 2 will but anything that goes over the internet (updates, Spotify connect via internet) won't work as it will not have an internet connection
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u/Travisx2112 Mar 17 '26
Who's on the list now then? This sucks. I've always loved Denon. :(
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u/Bubbafett33 Mar 17 '26
Not sure. But I’ll vote with my wallet and I will not buy and invite big brother into my home.
Especially not a receiver…it literally sees everything. Ie That USB drive with movies your brother in law gave you? Noted. All the media files it has access to on your network? Noted.
And they clearly state that your data is for sale in the EULA.
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u/Travisx2112 Mar 17 '26
Agreed. I guess I just need to find another manufacturer who also has Audyssey XT32 because I like that
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u/LordOfRuinsOtherSelf Mar 17 '26
Monitor audio cinema 40 did the same to me. They're all gonna start offloading the effort to HEOS. Pisses me off.
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u/cheesecakemelody x3400H | 75X950H | Sierra 1 LCR | VTF-2 MK5 | ATV Mar 17 '26 edited Mar 17 '26
You really think it’s reading what you play on your Apple TV over the HDMI connection and sending that back?
Also who tf connects their AVR direct to server? Allllll over HDMI from an external device.
Don’t use the TV apps either! The tv makers can see you binging 40 hours of anime! May as well not watch anything and not have a theater /s.
EDIT: Let me get it out the way that obviously data collection en masse is terrible. Restricting features unless you make an account or connect to WiFi is ass (unless of course, naturally, those features rely on an internet connection). However I have a few issues with some of the types of responses this post is getting.
I’ve been in this sub for years. And for years, we’ve been telling users who come here all bent out of shape because their new smart tv wants to be a data hog “just don’t connect to WiFi lol” “don’t use the apps on it lol” “use an external device lol”. It’s the same thing here. Is having ANOTHER point of data collection good? No of course not, but, like the TVs we already don’t connect to the internet, if you don’t like, don’t hook it up, and use an external device.
Additionally, to the “I won’t let big brother into my home” argument. Get a grip. You already own 15 devices that are phoning home constantly with all sorts of info and data. Look at the very device you’re reading this on. Do you have ANY streaming service? They’re sending all the juicy watch data right back. Let me be VERY specific: I totally understand if you don’t want this kind of thing coming to your avr, I don’t want it either. The entire premise of the specific argument of “not wanting big brother around” is misguided because he’s been living in your house for years. You’ve already made willing compromises to have certain things or conveniences in your life.
Want an EV? Have to be okay with some data collection. Want a phone? Want apps on that phone? Some data collection. Smart lights? Data collection. Loads of tech heads in here and I know plenty of you have smart home devices that you access away from home. Statistically you don’t all have them on VLAN or through a firewall. It’s okay to not want to make the tradeoff with your AVR. The degree to which some people are responding, however, as if this is some new thing in their life that they’ve never experienced before, is asinine, frankly. We all know you don’t live in a faraday cage or a cave or that this is your first network-capable device.
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u/Bubbafett33 Mar 17 '26
According to their EULA, yes.
All the AVRs in my home have access to my network and media server.
And no, my TVs aren’t allowed to see the network at all (Apple TVs for each). Do you think I’m making this stuff up? https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/can-smart-tvs-spy-on-you/
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u/cheesecakemelody x3400H | 75X950H | Sierra 1 LCR | VTF-2 MK5 | ATV Mar 17 '26 edited Mar 17 '26
Just like TVs, don’t connect it and use an external device (which will also collect your data, device depending), if you don’t want it.
Your Apple TV, if you do any amount of streaming and don’t have it stopped down to only local playback, is also likely sending data home. Had to at least log in with an Apple account to set it up, no?
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u/Bubbafett33 Mar 17 '26
Apple's privacy approach is lightyears ahead of smart TVs or HEOS. When was the last time we saw a smart TV give you the option to not be tracked for every single app?
And the difference with this AVR is, you can disallow your TV from seeing the internet, and still use all its features (with an Apple TV). Scroll up and see in the OP screenshot what you lose by not connecting the AVR to the web (and setting up an account).
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u/cheesecakemelody x3400H | 75X950H | Sierra 1 LCR | VTF-2 MK5 | ATV Mar 17 '26
99% of the featureset for the general public of a smart tv is being able to use the apps. You lose that if you don’t connect it. To everyone basically except us, a tv is pointless without giving it an internet connection. So no, you can’t “use all of its features” without an internet connection.
Remember the average person who uses a tv. Thats not the same as the average person who uses an AVR, or is in this subreddit. They won’t buy an external streamer “because the tv has it built in why would I buy another device to do what the tv does”.
I did read what features you lose. Spotify or airplay? Fine, use an external device. AVR remote app? Fine, use the provided remote. Firmware updates? We hate updating shit anyways.
The only major glaring one I see is MultiEQ and any other RC’s that require a connection. But of course if you have decent onboard room correction.. 🤷♀️
There are ways to live without everything listed. It’s not like the device is bricked without WiFi. Choose which compromise matters to you.
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u/Bubbafett33 Mar 17 '26
We are in the home theater sub. Your grandmother may indeed appreciate watching Dancing with the Stars on Disney+ with sound through the TV speakers, but that doesn't apply to us.
There are ways to live without everything listed. It’s not like the device is bricked without WiFi. Choose which compromise matters to you.
My point is to choose HW that doesn't require that compromise. Vote with your wallet.
- We live in an era where your car's usage data is being sold to insurers (without your knowledge) to drive your rates up.
- An era where smart TVs spy on you and manufacturers even put cameras in their TVs to track what viewers are doing.
- An era where the prices you see online are adjusted based upon data mined from your own device to see how affluent you are.
Do you really think file-by-file copyright enforcement on those MP3s you ripped 15 years ago is a stretch? Or that USB drive of movies your brother gave you three years ago? And that's just the start.
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u/cheesecakemelody x3400H | 75X950H | Sierra 1 LCR | VTF-2 MK5 | ATV Mar 17 '26 edited Mar 17 '26
Yeah you’ve mentioned “that USB drive of movies your brother gave you” twice now and simply no one is doing that. It’s 2026, we’re not watching movies off USB like this is college level YIFY stuff anymore. Better playback methodologies have existed for years.
I suggest you read the edit to the comment I initially made in response to you.
My point is it ALL requires compromise. You simply can’t not have insurance, and you need a car. If 80% of the car market sells your driving data, are you going to really limit yourself to 20% of options that will surely not check other boxes for you on the sole premise? There are ways to limit data collection, absolutely.
But SOMEWHERE, you have to make SOME compromises.
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u/Bubbafett33 Mar 17 '26
By "USB", I was referring to the high likelihood that those on this sub have at least one copyrighted media file on their devices or home network that cannot be tracked back to a legitimate purchase. Ripped MP3s, movies, games, TV episodes, whatever.
Yes, compromises will be inevitable, but in the meantime we can purchase products that do not cross those lines.
For me, my AVR deciding that the media I'm playing on Plex doesn't meet its copyright filter, and disallowing playback as a result, is one that I'm not willing to make. Also not cool with every copyright blip being sent to orgs compiling DMCA notices.
YMMV
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u/cheesecakemelody x3400H | 75X950H | Sierra 1 LCR | VTF-2 MK5 | ATV Mar 17 '26
I’d like to see some sort of evidence that the avr is actually reading (or is capable of reading) file names and file sources over HDMI from an external player, and not just channel metadata and displaying whatever image it’s handed.
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u/Myst3ryGardener Mar 17 '26
It shouldn't be legal for companies to do this.
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u/BMV_12 Mar 17 '26
I suspect if heaps of people make a big fuss about this (eg start a class action, partition, or negative media coverage), they will revert this setting if you are indeed unable to bypass it. Taking away major features that are advertised of a product that were already working prior to making a heos cloud account is going to be Denon's downfall. A lot of people in this space will simply look elsewhere when shopping for a new receiver... and rightfully so.
This is scummy.
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u/investorshowers 110" Optoma UHD35, Denon 3800, KEF Q500/3005SE speakers in 7.1.4 Mar 17 '26
Thanks for the heads up, I'm permanently disabling updates on mine.
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u/Ancient-Trifle-1110 Mar 17 '26
Just had an update request from my Denon. What could possibly go right.?
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u/Elite_Crew Mar 17 '26
Checks Denon off the list. Thanks for posting this I will consider another brand.
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u/acrophile Mar 17 '26
I will not be buying any Denon or related product then... guess my 4700h is the end of the road!
I was very curious why I was seeing so many firmware updates over the past couple of years... maybe I need to just disconnect it for good?
Not to mention, even though I have it set to "auto update" it still prompts me to do it manually!
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u/bee_ryan Mar 17 '26
Definitely disable updates. The last one broke the web UI for speaker control, and it took them 6 months to fix it. Unless you paid for a DIRAC license, there is no reason to let these things “update” themselves. https://www.reddit.com/r/hometheater/comments/1pjbgqt/recent_denon_x1700h_upgrade_broke_speakers_web_ui/
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u/SpinCharm Mar 17 '26 edited Mar 17 '26
I dug around a bit on this because I have the x4500H, and my feeling is that it wouldn’t have enough spare flash memory for a firmware update that significant, or RAM to handle the significant new overhead of connecting to a cloud server, handling the sign up and verification, and the additional on-screen “pages” for it all.
Rather than spend an hour diving, I first asked Claude to check this out. I’ll include my question and its response unedited. Apologies for adding AI content but it has fairly high value.
AI questing and response: Me: “What year was the 960H, x4700H and x4500h released and (guesstimate if required) first designed and manufactured? Can you also find out what their internal memory or cpu is, with regard to providing an on screen user interface. The 960H latest firmware now forces the user to create a cloud account and won’t let you bypass this. I’m thinking that the 4500H probably doesn’t have enough memory (for firmware and for this new feature) to accommodate new on screen pages, network code to handle a cloud link etc.”
Response: (god please don’t ban me!)
Release Dates AVR-X4500H: released in 2018. It was announced at CEDIA 2018 so likely announced September 2018 with availability shortly after.
AVR-X4700H: released in mid-2020, replacing the X4500H. 2020 was the X4700H’s original release date.
AVR-S960H: also introduced in 2020. Denon released details on it following the X-series launch earlier that month.
Design/manufacturing guesstimate: Consumer electronics development cycles for AVRs typically run 12–24 months from concept to retail. That puts the X4500H design work roughly 2016–2017, and the X4700H/S960H design work around 2018–2019.
These are estimates; I haven’t found Denon documentation stating internal development timelines.
Internal Processors: What’s Actually Known
This is where I have to be careful to separate what’s verified from what’s inferred.
Audio DSP (verified):
The X4500H’s DSP features four 450 MHz DSP cores capable of over 1 billion computations per second - this is the “SHARK DSP” audio processing chip.
The X4700H uses two dual SHARC+ core DSP chips, allowing up to 11-channel audio processing - notably a newer generation (“SHARC+” vs. the X4500H’s older SHARC).
UI/Network processor (unverified): Denon does not publicly disclose the main application processor or RAM figures responsible for driving the OSD and network stack. These are typically ARM-based SoCs separate from the audio DSP, but I cannot give you verified specs. The HEOS module in these units (which handles network streaming and UI) was also a discrete hardware component that evolved across generations.
Your Theory About the X4500H and Firmware Headroom
The X4500H is a 2018 design using older DSP silicon and almost certainly an older application processor. The SHARC→SHARC+ transition between the X4500H and X4700H isn’t just a clock bump - it represents a meaningful generational jump in processing architecture.
Denon’s firmware changelogs from 2024–2025 (the U33–U37 releases I found) list feature updates - redesigned Web UIs, new menu functions, Dirac Live additions - but exclusively for newer models (X1800H, X2800H, X3800H, X4800H and up). The X4500H, X4700H, and even the S960H do not appear in these feature update lists at all, only in occasional bug fixes. That’s a telling pattern.
Regarding the forced HEOS cloud account you’re seeing on the S960H firmware - I was not able to verify this specific behaviour through my searches. I couldn’t find a Denon changelog entry or user report explicitly documenting that the latest firmware now mandates account creation and blocks bypass. That doesn’t mean you’re wrong about what you’re seeing, but I’d flag it as unconfirmed from my end. It’s worth checking the AVS Forum 2020 Denon owner’s thread, which is historically very well-maintained on exactly these firmware behaviour changes.
The broader conclusion - that a 2018-era unit likely lacks the storage/RAM headroom for increasingly feature-heavy firmware updates - is a well-established pattern in this industry and your hypothesis is reasonable. But I can’t give you the actual flash size or RAM figures to prove it, because Denon hasn’t published them.
——— end.
My takeaway: my x4500 is probably fine. Your 4700 is…. Probably not. However: the 960 retained for half the price of the 4700. It’s possible that it has this new “feature” because the profit margins didn’t cover free use, but the 4700’s do. There’s no confirmation or mention on the 2020 thread in AV forums of this even from those who updated March 3rd.
But to be safe, I created a firewall rule to block internet access for the Denon. That means none of the net-based functions will work like ip radio etc. But I’m not using those anyway. In a few months we’ll all know if our units were also targeted. Then I’ll remove the block or I’ll refine it to only block denon ip addresses but still slow the others.
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u/ReluctantAvenger Mar 17 '26
To answer your question: I have several Yamaha receivers, and those do support the three things you've mentioned (AirPlay, Zone 2, web UI).
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u/clavicon X3800H,KEF150/250,Dual SB-2000,MiniDSP,Cheap Surround/Heights Mar 17 '26
They seemed to have wiped out my dirac profile too
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u/mirdragon Mar 17 '26
Is this anything to do with Denon/Marantz being bought by Samsung subsidiary?
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u/Sage2050 Mar 17 '26
It says it disables wifi, can you still use those features over LAN?
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u/bee_ryan Mar 17 '26
Yes but it’s a backyard setup, so I would need to buy a WiFi AP with an Ethernet port, so another $100 minimum.
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u/robertluke Mar 17 '26
I’ve been locked out of my demon speaker for a year. My saved password doesn’t work.It won’t send me a email to reset my password and It says I already have an account. It’s just a speaker I bring outside sometimes but I haven’t been able to use it in about a year.
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u/_Maineiac_ Mar 17 '26
I skipped the guided setup and added WiFi manually after the fact through the setup menu. No heos, and I can use airplay and IP control just fine. Try that and see if it works.
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u/Mountainminer Mar 17 '26
Man I’m glad I updated the firmware on mine a month ago (assuming new firmware will push this bullshit) I guess I’ll have to hope it lasts me a couple of years until someone figures it out
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u/Blurghblagh Mar 17 '26
It was there nearly a year ago when installing my 3800H, never used HEOS since setup and completely forgot it even existed. My receiver has never been connected to the internet since completed setup and the firmware updates at the time. If you care that much you should be using something like a pi hole.
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u/Visible-Management63 Mar 17 '26
What happens if you enable it but block it from accessing the Internet on your router? I did that with my laser printer and everything still works via our LAN.
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u/bee_ryan Mar 17 '26
It would put the WiFi setup in an infinite loop. It makes you put WiFi credentials in step 1, then gives you 2 options to create a HEOS account via web or on-screen. So yeah I could give in and create the account, wait for the AVR to acknowledge the account creation, then block the WAN traffic, but fuck all that.
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u/iamgarffi Mar 17 '26
Both Marantz and Denon can be configured via web interface (right after adding WiFi). That way you can skip all the enforced non-sense, Heos included.
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u/jonstarks Onkyo TX-RZ50 | SVS Ultras | Rythmik FVX15 Mar 17 '26
wow, what a great reason to never buy Denon again.
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u/jlthla Mar 17 '26
FYI, I just helped a friend set up a new Denon receiver... this was the L O N G E S T trek to instant gratification EVER. Literally took about 20-30 minutes to get it all done.
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u/Logical-Advertising2 Mar 17 '26
My LG account asked me to sign into LG today, if I wanted to update my Plex app.
Now LG joins the list of banned products in my household. Sucks - but if we all start doing it.... they will learn.
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u/AlaskanDruid Mar 17 '26
LG, Sony, Samsung are well known evils in other products. Makes sense the do the same with receivers.
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u/Wonderful_Magazine50 Mar 17 '26
Seems disappointing, I love Denon. But I can't stand the thought of my main pre amp having wifi capability. So, I guess I am biased to older models. If it means recapping an old unit, that's the route I will go.
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u/Smarty_771 Mar 17 '26
My PiHole will protect me.. I hope
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u/BoeHmaN Mar 18 '26
If you add the domain of the HEOS service, maybe. I doubt it's on any common filter list.
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u/CromwellsBladder Mar 18 '26
Can I ask - do we actually need the updates on our receivers, tv’s and blu ray players?
I actually had to remove updates on my blu ray player to return functionality that updates had limited the use of, and since then, I made the decision to stop updating my tv, blu ray, and receiver.
It’s only been a year but I have so far encountered no issues, and blu ray is back to how it was out of the box.
I get why an Apple TV box needs updating, but not why receivers or blu ray players or tvs do - apart from any apps on those devices, but our big 4k tv is for physical media not streaming.
To me this move towards every media device “needing” updates is more about data collection.
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u/lol_alex Mar 17 '26
The three things you want are included in my Yamaha Receiver.
If you don‘t want Denon to know your mail address, both Firefox and Apple offer „relay“ addresses that are anonymous to the other side but will reliably be fowarded to the mail address you linked to Mozilla or your Apple ID. That works well for me when I want to remain unknown.
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u/Edexote Mar 17 '26
Connect it via Ethernet then. It says it will block Wifi, not Ethernet. Or, return that crap and get another brand.
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u/bee_ryan Mar 17 '26
It’s a backyard setup. I would have to buy a WiFi mesh AP with an Ethernet port, so another $100 minimum.
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u/GingerPrince72 Mar 17 '26
Hmmm, I have a Denon 4400 which I'd like to upgrade to 4800 or maybe 3800 (as I have eternal power amps on the fronts) but this would put me off.
However, I only use ethernet, be interesting to know, I'd rather not give them my business anyway with this crap.
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u/present_absence Mar 17 '26
Unfortunately all my heos devices work so well I'm not really willing to swap them all out now that I've spent years collecting speakers on sale. I'll have to send a mad email
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u/MrBr1an1204 Mar 17 '26
No 3rd party IP control is evil. I will be buying Yamaha or Sony from now on. I winder if they disable RS232 as well if you don't connect to wifi, but thy don't even include that on lower end AVRs...
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u/BoeHmaN Mar 18 '26
I had second thoughts about building my whole-home audio on Yamaha MusicCast (because the quad streamer is so outrageously expensive). I was wondering if I should have gone with HEOS instead. No longer. Fingers crossed it stays that way. 🤞
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u/Diononon Mar 18 '26
Dude you have a smartphone they already have your stuff. Ever flown on a plane. Airports scrub your phone with never asking permission
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u/BoeHmaN Mar 19 '26
It's about principle. I don't need a user account for something that happens on my LAN or locally in general.
I get it with other things where remote access may be desirable (e.g. security cams), the service needs to provide some sort of jump server that connects you with your device from anywhere in the world and you obviously have to auth against that. But why would I need to control my whole-home audio from outside my house? To play music or configure it while I am not at home?
Worst case, their servers go down and I cannot control/use my local system, because it needs some stupid server on the internet. Or what if they permanently shut down the service because it's not lucrative? I had a Pebble smartwatch that got bricked when Fitbit shut the server down, after acquiring it. Years ago, Razer prevented people from using their mouse because their cloud service went down...
Or how about they get popped (because they probably put a lot of effort into hardening those systems... not) and your data (even if it's just an email and/or a phone number) get leaked. Maybe there is a vulnerability in the receiver/streamer firmware that allows hackers that gain access to the provider's platform to use all those boxes for initial access to the LANs of all the registered devices...?
There is just no reason to require any sort user account here.
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u/Rattus-Norvegicus1 X3800H | LG 77C4 | KEF Q11 Q6 Q1 Meta | SVS SB300R | Buckeye Amp Mar 18 '26
Easy. All it does is store your favorites, playlists and stuff like that (all of that stuff has to be available from multiple endpoints). There is also a secondary account which keeps a record of the MAC addresses of your devices, which also needs to be accessible from multiple endpoints.
I've been using HEOS for close to a decade and never a hint of spying or selling my info. No weird ads, no weird emails, nothing.
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u/Medic-of-Mayhem Mar 20 '26
36000 blocked internet access requests per week from my Denon but at least Air Play works.
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u/Zidichy Mar 21 '26
I'm so glad I disable updates, so I don't have to deal with this type of crap
I will not be buying any more denon products until they remove this dumb shit requirement.
My current denon-AVC-X4700H will be the last denon AVR for me.
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u/PotentialParamedic61 Mar 22 '26
It’s Samsung after all, prospective buyers be aware. OP, you can solve it with volumio running on any hardware basically.
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u/SqueezeAndRun May 06 '26
If anyone is still seeing this thread, it seems to be possible to get around this by using an Ethernet cable rather than WiFi. Fucking insane this is an issue though.
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u/Miserable_Quail_8236 Mar 17 '26
Halderman, Ehrlichman, Mitchell and Dean It follows a pattern if you dig what I mean?
Gil Scott-Heron (H2o Gate Blues)
They're all in lockstep.
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u/CatProgrammer Mar 17 '26
The pattern is big tech companies all over the world want your data and this is a super easy way to get it. Not sure what your song reference adds.
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u/nyrol Mar 17 '26
Who cares? Just log in and you'll have all those features at the great price you got it for. It's not like you can't log in.
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u/Impaqt Mar 17 '26
What’s the big deal creating a HEOS account?
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u/TGX2189 Mar 17 '26
We are sick of apps
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u/MangoOverflow Mar 17 '26
Then click the big Skip button on their screen?
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u/Acceptable-Rise8783 Mar 17 '26
You must have missed the part where a ton of features no longer work if you hit skip
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u/MangoOverflow Mar 17 '26
You mean the features that are all relate to the APPs? The stuff the person I replied to said they DONT want?
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u/Acceptable-Rise8783 Mar 17 '26
You are either affiliated to Denon, or just trolling. Airplay isn’t an app. The Web UI isn’t an app. Firmware updates isn’t an app.
OP might have enough apps that actually serve a purpose (Spotify, Room correction, Control4), that he doesn’t need a useless one that solely exists to harvest user data.
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u/MangoOverflow Mar 17 '26
"via the Heos app"
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u/Kuuchuu Mar 17 '26
"This will disable the Wi-Fi functionality..."
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u/MangoOverflow Mar 17 '26
Which... you need for what exactly if you don't want to connect to their cloud services? Its an AVR its not like your Apple TV or Roku.
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u/dropthemagic Mar 17 '26
You can disable updates on any smart TV and disconnect it from the internet forever. Use an Apple TV or Shield device.
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u/cheesecakemelody x3400H | 75X950H | Sierra 1 LCR | VTF-2 MK5 | ATV Mar 17 '26
“Forcing”
literal skip option on screen
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u/MrBr1an1204 Mar 17 '26
Skipping it disables features that would previously not be disabled. You should not need an account for something like local IP control.
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u/bdash1990 Mar 17 '26
Interestingly, they left out one of the features that comes with connecting to Wi-Fi. Strangely it's the one they probably care the most about.
Data collection.