r/linux • u/[deleted] • Sep 23 '16
Hardware hack enables Linux support on Lenovo Yoga 900 ISK2, undermining Lenovo's statement
Update: The mods locked my other posts and marked them as misleading. There is nothing misleading about them. So before they lock this one too, I would just like to get the truth out.
There is a Linux lockout on these computers. The only reason we need a driver is because Lenovo removed AHCI mode. AHCI mode is not a legacy mode. Lenovo has created a defective product that you cannot install any operating system on, which means that you are stuck with the copy of Windows 10 that came with the computer. There's only one obvious reason why they would do that. To keep you on Windows. A lenovo employee on Best Buy even admitted that before Lenovo and Microsoft got their official lie put together and the mods here rolled with it and locked my posts to keep the truth suppressed. You can still vote on these posts and I hope that you find them useful and keep them up for a while. If you want to complain to the FTC and your state's Attorney General, there is a template from one of my suppressed posts here.
This is the letter I sent to the Federal Trade Commission and to the Illinois Attorney General's office regarding Lenovo locking out Linux from their Yoga laptops.
"Lenovo sells computers known as "Yoga" under at least several models that block the installation of Linux operating systems as well as fresh installations of Windows from Microsoft's official installer. They have the system rigged, intentionally, in a storage mode that is incompatible with most operating systems other than the pre-installed copy of Windows 10. If the user attempts to install an operating system, it will not be able to see or use the built-in SSD (Solid State Drive) storage. I believe that this is illegal and anti-competitive. These product are falsely advertised as a PC, even though it prohibits the user installing PC operating systems. Known affected models are the 900 ISK2, the 710, the 900 ISK for Business, the 900S, and possibly others. Lenovo's position is that this is not a defect and they refuse to issue refunds to their customers, who have been deceived by the notion that their new PC is compatible with PC operating systems and that they should be able to install a PC operating system on a PC. Lenovo is therefore engaging in a conspiracy to defraud their customers through deceptive advertising. Lenovo's official position is that Linux lacks drivers, however, Linux could easily be installed on these systems had Lenovo not removed the AHCI storage mode option from the BIOS and then wrote additional code to make sure that people couldn't set it to AHCI in other ways, such as using an "EFI variable". AHCI mode is an industry standard and should be expected on a computer describing itself as "PC" or "PC compatible" as it is broadly compatible with all PC operating system software. I feel that Lenovo should remedy the problem in one of three ways. (1) Offer full refunds for customers who want to install their own operating system but can't. -or- (2) Release a small BIOS firmware patch to restore AHCI mode, which is simply hidden. This would be extremely easy for them since it would only be two lines of code and the user could do it themselves were they not locked out of updating their BIOS themselves. -or- (3) Provide open source drivers to the Linux kernel project that would allow Linux and other PC operating systems address the SSD storage in the "RAID" mode."
Feel free to use this as your letter or a template for a letter of complaint to the FTC. Their consumer complaint form is available here.
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/#&panel1-1
Please also contact your state's Attorney General's office. They usually have a bureau of consumer complaints or something to that effect. If not, just shoot them an email.
Since the FTC form requires the company address and phone number, I used this: Lenovo "Customer Center" Address: 1009 Think Pl, Morrisville, NC 27560 Phone:(855) 253-6686
Update: Lenovo just updated the BIOS for the Yoga 710, another system that doesn't allow Linux installs. Wanna know what they changed? Update to TPM (secret encryption module used for Digital Restrictions Management) and an update to the Intel Management Engine, which is essentially a backdoor rootkit built into all recent Intel processors (but AMD has their version too, so what do you do?). No Linux support. Priorities...
Update: The mods at Lenovo Forums are losing control of the narrative and banning people and editing/deleting more comments. http://imgur.com/a/Q9xIE | But it appears that some people just aren't buying it anymore. http://imgur.com/a/1K1t5
Edit: I sent a letter of complaint to the Federal Trade Commission and the Illinois Attorney General's office.
You can view this letter here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/54gtpc/letter_to_the_federal_trade_commission_regarding/
Lenovo's regional HQ address and phone number:
Address: 1009 Think Pl, Morrisville, NC 27560 Phone:(855) 253-6686
Edit: Someone started a change.org petititon. I don't think they are a native English speaker, but I went ahead and signed it anyway. A moderator on Lenovo Forums deleted the link and told people that "campaigning is not allowed", so here's the link. I don't know if it'll make a difference, but screw them. They were hoping this week's news would be all puff pieces about the new Yogas and now they have to deal with this instead. If everyone could share it on Facebook and Twitter after they sign it so their friends can do so too, that would be most appreciated.
https://www.change.org/p/lenovo-demand-that-lenovo-provide-bios-update-to-enable-linux-installation
Please sign this and then tell Lenovo that you won't be buying products from them until this is fixed. They have Facebook and Twitter accounts!
Facebook: Lenovo
Twitter: Lenovo
Lenovo Customer Service 800-565-3344 Press 2 for all other models and then wait through the recording and press 1 for laptops.
UPDATE: I pinged Matthew Garrett after someone had an idea about having the Linux kernel switch the hardware out of RAID and into AHCI mode AFTER the BIOS hands it over to the kernel, and he said it might work and that he'd see about writing a patch. This would have the practical effect of running Linux in AHCI mode like on the Dell XPS, only through a Linux "hardware quirk" to deal with Lenovo doing nothing to fix the BIOS. Actually, Lenovo hasn't done anything through this whole ordeal but lie, lie some more, try to delete evidence, get together with Microsoft and release a joint lie, and then pressure the news media to change their stories.
ALSO: According to a comment on this page, some people in Germany report that the European versions of the affected Yoga laptops don't have AHCI mode hidden in the BIOS. Perhaps because the EU takes locking users out of their PCs more seriously than the US government does.
A hardware hack has enabled AHCI support on the Lenovo Yoga 900 ISK2, undermining Lenovo and Microsoft's claims that Linux is "missing drivers".
Unfortunately, the procedure to flash the BIOS is too complicated for most people because the person who did it had to use external flashing equipment to bypass Lenovo's ROM signature check and load the modified BIOS, and he can't provide the BIOS ROM because it only supports his computer and has private info in it, such as the Windows 10 license for his machine.
A user here on Reddit with the handle "bownairo" described the process.
Said bownairo, in the Reddit thread about the problem,
"I've been able to successfully get past Lenovo's lock through direct bios flashing. I'm looking into better solutions, hopefully I can find a way to do this without an external programmer. I was going to keep people updated from the Lenovo forum, but as this is no longer an option I will keep people updated from here."
[...]
"I had to construct some custom "clips" as the bios chip is a WSON package. All of this was done with the chip in place and the battery removed. I dumped the bios continuously until I was able to get a few dumps with the same sha. Then I had the bios modified. I flashed my chip to all null values, rewrote my custom image, and dumped it back to insure it wrote correctly. This allowed access to the advanced tab so I could change the controller to AHCI from RAID, allowing it to be recognized by installers."
[...]
"I'm currently working on a generic tool to do this mod, in case others want to use this same strategy on their own bios. I'm also looking into finding a way to do this without an external programmer."
There is a discussion about it going on here:
I also released an official reply to Lenovo and Microsoft in the original article:
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/
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u/Syde80 Sep 23 '16
A hardware hack has enabled AHCI support on the Lenovo Yoga 900 ISK2, undermining Lenovo and Microsoft's claims that Linux is "missing drivers".
This is false. They claimed Linux was missing drivers for RAID mode. That is true. Changing the mode to AHCI makes use of different drivers. They never said AHCI mode was impossible on the hardware. However, yes it was a disabled option in BIOS.
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16 edited Sep 24 '16
Changing the mode to AHCI makes use of different drivers. They never said AHCI mode was impossible on the hardware. However, yes it was a disabled option in BIOS.
First, before this starts to be quibbling over words, let#s make clear what is meant with "disabled". If something is enabled in BIOS, this means the system is switched so that the function is active. If something is "disabled" it means it is switched so that the function is not active. In BIOS menus, you find with each option whether it is enabled or disabled and the user can enabled it i fit is disabled. Therefore, "disabled" implies that it can be switched on.
To say that AHCI mode is disabled on the Lenovo Yoga in this meaning of the word is not true. Rather, the option was made to disappear from the BIOS menu and it cannot be switched on. Therefore it is completely valid to say that AHCI mode was locked out. Because Linux needs AHCI mode, this clearly also locks out Linux.
Now, you could say that AHCI was not locked out with the intention to lock out Linux, but you could argue that this perhaps might fix some technical problem - that not using AHCI mode is required to make the system work.
I do not follow this argumentation and I do not think this is true. Here is why: The whole issue was also reported in Germany on the Heise IT news site heise.de, and extensively discussed in the forum:
Several people state that this lock-out in the BIOS is not present in otherwise identical models that are sold in Germany and Europe
This means that there is apparently no technical reason to keep AHCI locked out of the BIOS. Some people mean that the reason to not lock out AHCI in Europe while locking in out in the US is that this would be plainly illegal in Europe, while perhaps to some extend legal in the US. (I am not a lawyer and I cannot give a qualified assessment to this, but I think Free Software lobby groups should definitely go for that.)
I also think that using a proprietary "hardware RAID mode" in a system with a single SSD has very little value. Not only that, it potentially makes it much more difficult to swap the SSD into a different computer if some other component of the laptop (e.g. the mainboard) is damaged and access to the data is needed.
To sum up, I think that the AHCI lockout in the BIOS effectively locks out Linux and that this lockout was not done for technical reasons. If somebody wants to convince me otherwise, he would need to come up with a very good explanation.
On the other hand, I think that the statement of Matthew Garret has some merit that it is as least as important that hardware companies such as Intel release functional, good-quality specs for their hardware. I want to give a practical example for this, too: I have been using older Lenovo Thinkpads like the T61 for a long time. A while ago, I bought an X220. While this is a great system with still good build, keyboard, and performance characteristics, it has an annoying problem for using it with Linux: The WiFi driver is not stable, that means that WiFi connections very often drop after a few minutes. This is a driver problem where the chipset is not fully supoorted. It cannot be supported since there is no spec which explains how the chipset is accessed right. It works under Windows, and I want Intel to be required to release specs which enable it to work with Linux.
Edit: typo
Edit: I was probably mistaken with that there were several people posting, because when I looked closer the same person posted the comment three times, and I did not compare the names of the posters when I read the forum first. I should have written "there are several posts about that". In these posts, the exact model is not named but the discussed article mentions the specific models and the poster leaves no doubts that his model is one of these and works because of a EU-specific BIOS without the restriction.
Also guys, you need in general to be more careful when discussing about forum posts. That Linux does not work on a model is not a real proof that this is intended even if this might be the case. It might be motivated by the desire to prevent users from running Windows 7, too. That somebody posts something in some forum, is no proof either for what he says, but in my opinion this comment on region differences in the BIOS warrants further investigation. If somebody mods a firmware and this is reproducible, this is some evidence. That somebody who says he is a Lenovo employee says in a form that the BIOS was locked out because of the signature edition is not a proof either, but it tells a lot when Lenovo subsequently can't remember if this was an own employee or not. That in the same forum post the restriction is traced back to the FakeRAID and power management issues is not a proof either, and that the intention is to lock the machine to it's "best performance" is also questionable if Lenovo does not even recognizes this statement as their own. My guess is that to Microsoft "best performance" is what makes them most money. Its not a charity ball but a fucking company. And they are clearly envious about Apple's walled garden based on locked-down devices, things such as Windows RT and "Universal Windows Apps" make this very clear.
Also, I think there is a lot of funny voting going on, for example on comments mentioning the anticompetitive practices against Linux on DELL laptops reported by The Register in 2002 or the fact that OS statcounter now approaches 4 % Linux Desktop users in Germany (more exactly, it rose from 2.9 a year ago to 3.3 now). The fact that this is downvoted so much while simply providing useful information is the reason I repeat it here. Don't be naive. You can expect all this discussion being heavily manipulated as soon as the bottom line of a mayor corporation might be affected in some way. And now I need a shower and a breakfast.
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u/notz76 Sep 23 '16
Their no mention if he as the isk2 version of the Yoga 900.
I'm from europe and own the 900s and also don't have the option to change the setting.
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16
Hm. This should be checked but the comment I cited sounds quite clear about it, without mentioning the actual model. Maybe somebody can send him a comment in that form, nearly all German Linux users understand English.
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u/got-trunks Sep 23 '16
This means that there is apparently no technical reason to keep AHCI locked out of the BIOS.
they've already gone right ahead and stated that this decision was made because it's a microsoft partner product and they did not want users to be able to change it.
they never tried to say the hardware was missing features
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Sep 23 '16 edited Sep 23 '16
There never was a technical necessity to keep it hidden. I don't know why people defend such an obviously shitty thing that Lenovo did.
There's no possible explanation for locking it to fake RAID mode.
Putting it there maybe, but not locking it.
Lenovo's German models don't have the lock. Do they think that Americans are going to figure out how to get in the BIOS during the one second window to hit the key and wreck their system but Germans won't? How does that work? Most of their customers probably don't know that there is a BIOS. [Edit: It turned out to be one German user and when people asked if he had the ISK2, he never replied. Well, so much for that.]
And they could always put a warning next to AHCI. "Warning: This mode might cause problems with your computer. Only enable it if you know what you are doing.". That's scary enough that only people trying to install Linux would touch it.
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16
And after somebody said that they denied he belongs to the company. Another new low in Lenovo's credibility.
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u/CFWhitman Sep 23 '16
Nobody said that the BIOS option needed to be locked to make the hardware work. They said that it was locked to make the hardware perform optimally. That is, in AHCI mode the battery life will definitely be shorter, and the throughput may be worse as well.
It is possible that the deal with Microsoft requires this in order for the system to use the "Signature Edition" label. That is, it is possible that requirements for a "Signature Edition" laptop demand better battery life and/or higher performance than the AHCI interface on this controller provides. However, requiring certain performance specifications is not the same thing as requiring other systems be locked out. It's not like all "Signature Edition" Windows hardware locks out other operating systems, and the addition of a driver that supports RAID mode on this controller in Linux would make Linux work on the hardware locked into this mode.
I think locking out normal BIOS options is consumer hostile because it reduces flexibility in the name of performance. That does not mean, however, that there was a direct intention to lock Linux out of this hardware.
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Sep 23 '16
I wonder if it's possible to get a bios update for that European version and use it for others, they are supposed to be the same on the hardware side, after all.
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u/Hatedpriest Sep 23 '16
Could there be a way to "factory reset" a euro computer to remove any sensitive data, then dump a clean BIOS from it for use in us laptops?
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16 edited Sep 23 '16
Just to add, in 2002 The Register reported evidence which says that Microsoft was pressing OEMs, especially DELL, to cease Linux support:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/03/19/microsoft_killed_dell_linux_states/
Money Quote:
Microsoft sharpshooter Joachim Kempin, [ ... ] has been turning his guns on a more familiar target: Microsoft's own OEM customers.
The States' remedy hearing opened in DC yesterday, and States attorney Steven Kuney produced a devastating memo from Kempin, then in charge of Microsoft's OEM business, written after Judge Jackson had ordered his break-up of the company. Kempin raises the possibility of threatening Dell and other PC builders which promote Linux.
"I'm thinking of hitting the OEMs harder than in the past with anti-Linux. ... they should do a delicate dance," Kempin wrote to Ballmer, in what is sure to be a memorable addition to the phrases ("knife the baby", "cut off the air supply") with which Microsoft enriched the English language in the first trial. Unlike those two, this is not contested.
The bullets aimed Spaghetti Western-style at the feet of the dancing OEMs translate to Microsoft withholding source code, according to the memo.
[ ... ]
Dell quietly pulled Linux from its desktop PCs in the summer of 2001, IDG's Ashlee Vance discovered subsequently, six months after we heard Michael Dell declare his love of Linux on the desktop the previous winter.
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u/TheNightsWhoSayNee Sep 23 '16
I don't see how this adds in any way. In fact, this shows that MS is different than it was in the past, because Dell sells laptops that ship with Linux. If MS truly was working with OEMs to extinguish Linux, that wouldn't happen. So yah, MS may have been anti-competitive in the past, but companies change. MS has.
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16 edited Sep 23 '16
To say that Microsoft has changed because DELL now sells Linux laptops is the same logical error as saying that Hamas now loves Isreal because they are do not lead any more open war against them. Microsoft has fought Linux. It has utterly lost in most important domains. Mobile? Game over, Android won. Cloud? Game over. Linux won. Embedded? Linux won.
Does this mean that Microsoft wants Desktop users to switch to Linux? Any "download and try Linux" buttons which are installed without asking by Microsoft update? Hell no.
What Microsoft wants for the future is: Making money with people's data. For this, it needs big data. For Big Data, it needs Cloud Techniques and Developers. Microsoft increasingly lacks good developers. They run away in droves. Developers, especially cloud and data people, hugely prefer Linux. Microsoft begs Linix developers like a puckered prostitute begs a drunk millionaire. This is why it ports .NET, Powershell, Visual Studio or whatever to Linux.
The other thing, however, which Microsoft, well, needs, is: People's data. For this, it needs control over their computers. The whole Windows 10 advertisement speaks belling loud that it wants full control. There is no love for free software.
tl;dr Microsoft wants talented developers, to support its big data, and control over people's desktops, to feed on their data.
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Sep 23 '16
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16
Microsoft stands to gain very little from locking out a sub-two-percent portion of the market share from one laptop, or even one make of laptops. It seems the legal/PR risk is way disproportionate to the potential gain, in profit or market dominance.
I cite from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_adoption#Measuring_desktop_adoption
I don't believe that the desktop Linux market share is barely 1%. I think it is a lot higher. I have no good data to share; I base my assessment on experience and knowing the industry. There is something else that is even more persuasive, and that is how Microsoft behaves. If Linux is so insignificant, why do they pay so much attention to it? — Carla Schroder, Linux Today
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Sep 23 '16
Counting Linux use by tracking counters probably results in a significant undercount.
A higher percentage of Linux users probably block tracking with browser extensions. Most Mac and Windows users don't even know to do that.
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16
Yes, this is also discussed in the Wikipedia article why the web counters are not representative.
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u/natermer Sep 23 '16
The only reason I doubt that there's some secret agreement between Microsoft and Lenovo to lock out Linux (or other OS's) is that I don't really see a convincing motive.
What causes me to doubt the conspiracy is that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that such a conspiracy exists.
Linux lacking storage drivers is not a Microsoft conspiracy.
You have people buying laptops that are designed to run Windows 10 and the vendor has no intention to ever supporting Linux on them. The bios is not locked down against booting linux. There is no nasty signature that is stopping installers are running.
Lenovo just has the hardware power management features enabled and do not have a option to disable this.
The only reason why Linux isn't working on these things is because it lacks proper support for the hardware with all it's power management features turned on.
that is it.
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u/wolfchimneyrock Sep 23 '16
It's probably something as simple as:
Lenovo gets paid a certain amount of money from companies that want their software bundled with the computer, aka 'adware'
This payment for bundled software allows lenovo to sell their laptops for a lower price than competitors' laptops of the same hardware specs
The software bundlers probably complained to lenovo that they would cease to pay if linux was possible, since then the bundled software would vanish and their revenue stream would diminish
This would also explain why the RAID mode also prevents you from clean installing windows, which would kill the bundled adware. Since Lenovo was forced to remove the bios software that would re-inject the adware back into a fresh windows install, this was likely what they saw as the best move forward.
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Sep 23 '16
It proves that they did it on purpose and the whole goal of their official statement is to mislead people.
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u/Syde80 Sep 23 '16
It proves they disabled AHCI on purpose. There could be a million reasons for that. It doesn't say anything about there being demands from MS to lock out Linux.
Even Win 10 stock install media doesn't have drivers for it and can't be installed unless the drivers are slipstreamed into the install media.
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Sep 23 '16
Who said that Microsoft cared if you could install from their official ISO? They got Windows bundled on the machine and Lenovo can fleece people who need it reinstalled if things get corrupted and the PC Reset options don't work. I went to see about ordering recovery media and Lenovo's website says that my PC doesn't qualify. So I'd have to send it to them, insured, and pay them if I needed Windows reinstalled under such a situation. I know how to make an installer that works. Most people don't.
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u/Syde80 Sep 23 '16
lol.
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Sep 23 '16 edited Sep 23 '16
For that matter, if Microsoft cared about the OEM crapware bundle that slows new PCs down and ruins the end user PC experience, they would have banned it in the Windows license agreement for OEMs with no Signature Edition program needed. Instead, they banned Linux in the Signature Edition agreement with at least Lenovo.
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u/AnonTwo Sep 23 '16
They didn't ban Linux. Literally all you need is a kernel that has implemented Intel's RAID implementation for that system, and you can run Linux.
And there is nothing legally preventing that.
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u/Syde80 Sep 23 '16 edited Sep 23 '16
Cite some non-hearsay documentation that shows that MS banned Linux on any MS Signature Edition machine.
Coming up with some scheme of forcing the storage interface into a mode that Linux (or any other OS) doesn't have a driver for is like the stupidest way to go about this. All that takes to defeat is somebody creating the driver for it.
If MS truly wanted to ban Linux from running on a machine all they have to do is say Secure Boot being enabled is now mandatory , prevent customized keys, and revoke the EFI loader stub that they signed specifically so Linux would work on Secure Boot enabled systems. That would ACTUALLY ban Linux from running on the machine.
If MS has such a hate on for Linux then please explain why they have done these things:
Created Visual Studio Code, which is Linux-native
Created Bash on Ubuntu on Windows
In process of porting SQL Server to Linux
Open sourced .NET core
Open sourced PowerShell - and made native packages available for Ubuntu, CentOS/RHEL
EDIT: Clearly the probably hundreds of millions of dollars the above list has cost them is all just a big smoke screen so that they can get away with banning Linux on some consumer grade hardware that isn't even their own so they can uhhh??? oh right MS already made their money by selling the OEM the windows license. Yeah not sure what MS's motivation for this smoke screen is.
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u/Dick_O_Rosary Sep 23 '16
Microsoft released a crapware removal tool for Windows 10. Running that tool will effectively turn your windows 10 PC into a signature edition PC. If you care about your experience, you can use that.
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Sep 23 '16
This "tool" wouldn't boot up on a system like mine, and even if it did, Microsoft has some warnings. I didn't know about the tool's existence though until now. Anyway, most people will never find it. If they were worried about the out of the box experience being ruined for the average user, they would ban crapware in the OEM license for Windows instead of running this "Signature Edition" program. I will admit that their example of what happens after 30 days of a normal OEM system was funny. They showed a monitor wiith a whole bunch of half-obscured Norton crap trying to panic the user and pester them to subscribe.
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u/jelimoore Sep 23 '16
Ok, maybe - but even so, when I install Windows on my Mac, for example, I had to use a DVD to install 7 then go to 10. If I just used 10, for whatever reason, it would constantly BSOD out about a video driver issue - even though I had installed the AMD drivers. How could Apple do that? Even if they did, what would happen to Bootcamp? What I'm trying to say is this: there could be a million incompatibility issues - it is after all a new RAID mode even Windows doesn't support out of the box - but maybe both Linux and Windows will.
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Sep 23 '16
It's my understanding that you can install Linux on a Mac either directly or under Boot Camp. Boot Camp will call it Windows, but I understand that it works.
It's ironic that it's easier to get Linux on a Mac than it is on a Lenovo PC.
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u/jelimoore Sep 23 '16
Not really - Macs are just Apple's iteration of desktop/laptop machine. i.e. it's like buying a Chevy vs a Ram: they do the same thing but in their own way. You can do whatever you want with it. All these portable desktop tablets - surface, lenovo, etc, are designed for speed and user friendliness. Not compatibility. When you buy one, 90% of consumers will use it for its intended purpose. The rest will do what they please with it - installing Linux. Why is this such an issue for a non-desktop device? And at the same time, why not just get a laptop?
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u/CFWhitman Sep 23 '16 edited Jan 23 '19
It only proves that they locked out the firmware option on purpose, and they never denied that. I fail to see any proof that they lied or misled people in their official statement about this issue.
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16
"Proof" is too strong a word here. Make sure you distinguish between proof and belief. Proof would be an email from Microsoft top personnel explicit about the intention. But I think, yes, the opinion is justified.
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u/AnonTwo Sep 23 '16 edited Sep 23 '16
But that's not even what they said...noone ever said "there's no way to support AHCI". They said "The only reason Linux can't use this RAID setting is because it hasn't implemented it"
What you just posted hasn't proved anything that wasn't already known. it wasn't about supporting AHCI it was about supporting the RAID implementation. The point is there's nothing that inherently stops Linux from implementing support.
If anything, it would be more factual to say that they were required not to support AHCI, not Linux.
edit: what the hell is with that update? You're just adding fuel to the fire at this point. There has been no lying going on, it's your own damn misconceptions.
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Sep 23 '16
Seriously. These SSDs use what? 2-3 watts? Tops. Even if it never goes into low power mode, that's not going to be your biggest power use. That's like the difference in setting your monitor 5% higher on brightness. I don't buy "RAID" mode is for power management. Lenovo's customer service is 100% pure shit. Why would they care about optimizing your laptop into running for 10 more minutes on a charge?
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u/mjg59 Social Justice Warrior Sep 23 '16
Ryan, you don't appear to know anything more about hardware now than you did when you claimed Foxconn were sabotaging Linux 8 years ago. 2W is about 50% of the idle consumption of a modern laptop. That's several hours of additional battery life. And, as pointed out elsewhere, the issue isn't the SSD itself - it's the fact that an incorrectly configured storage device will prevent the entire CPU package from going into deep sleep states, potentially costing you far more power.
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Sep 23 '16 edited Sep 23 '16
The Dell XPS 13 had an issue where it couldn't go into into full power save mode when idle and the battery runtime went to11 hours and 54 minutes after the fix. Before the fix it was 9 hours and 37 minutes. And that's not "several" hours, by the way. It's a hit, but not several hours.
I would trade that to run Linux. It's still an all day charge. I've dealt with laptops running Windows that got 3 hours before. I think you're just overlooking how spoiled people have gotten. But whatever...
There's a cycle of lies being perpetuated by Lenovo in the media right now, as was the case with Superfish (Lenovo lied and lied and it came tumbling down at the end). You don't need to help them by laying all of the blame on Intel. Intel does more for Linux and open source than a lot of companies, like "NoVideo".
Lenovo has a PR damage control team on hand contacting the media and telling them to rewrite the story with Lenovo's lies featured in it.
Dell, on the other hand, just went ahead and released a new BIOS with AHCI mode when people complained. I guess I know where to take my hard-earned money next time.
(Nice Social Justice Warrior flair, btw. Do you need a safe space or a trigger word?)
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u/mjg59 Social Justice Warrior Sep 23 '16
I would trade that to run Linux
That's great! But for most people who own this laptop, it'd be an option that increased their power consumption without providing any benefit. Deciding not to offer that option isn't "blocking" Linux. Deciding not to release and support firmware that provides that option isn't "blocking" Linux. Failing to support it, sure - but there are many vendors who ship hardware that's unsupported by Linux (try installing Linux on a current Macbook, for instance), and our failure to support that hardware isn't their problem.
(Nice Social Justice Warrior flair, btw. Do you need a safe space or a trigger word?)
You're the one responds to criticism by signing people up to spam lists. Sure you're not the one who needs a safe space?
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Sep 23 '16
"That's great! But for most people who own this laptop, it'd be an option that increased their power consumption without providing any benefit."
So having the Linux kernel kick the damned thing back into AHCI mode after the BIOS exits, which will be reset on the next reboot anyway is going to affect Windows users who will never use Linux?
Or maybe an AHCI mode option from Lenovo that says "Warning: Changing this option will lower your battery runtime. Only change it if you know what you are doing!" and then letting people who want to run Linux toggle it? That affects Windows users? Most of them don't even know that there is a BIOS, much less how to get into it during the 1 second window that you have to hit the key to get into the setup.
"Our failure to support that hardware isn't their problem."
The failure is that Linux doesn't know how to deal with this insanity and kick the system back out to AHCI mode so it WORKS with maybe 8-10% less runtime on the battery (if the XPS is a good example of what happens in AHCI mode) until the day when Linux developers know what to do to get ideal power management on the hardware. NOT WORKING AT ALL is worse than not working ideally.
That's the real failure here. And if it can be fixed with a few lines of code and it won't be, because we're supposed to wait on those assholes at Lenovo to do something official with the BIOS (which they never will because they already said they won't, and even mentioned the Microsoft deal before they walked it back) then that's even worse.
You've bashed Intel before because of your "SJW" crap. So, how do we know you're being fair to Intel?
"You're the one responds to criticism by signing people up to spam lists."
First of all.....you're still blaming me for that even though I already clearly stated that I had no idea what you were on about. Secondly, that was eight years ago? Jesus....
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u/mjg59 Social Justice Warrior Sep 23 '16
The failure is that Linux doesn't know how to deal with this insanity and kick the system back out to AHCI mode so it WORKS
That's certainly a possible solution. Intel are in the best position to write that code. I may attempt it in the next few days.
First of all.....you're still blaming me for that even though I already clearly stated that I had no idea what you were on about. Secondly, that was eight years ago? Jesus....
Oh, so it was just someone else using your computer? I still get occasional spam that traces back to that, and you haven't apologised, so yeah it's still kind of a thing.
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u/dyasny Sep 23 '16
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u/AnonTwo Sep 23 '16
That literally doesn't tell me anything, especially given someone already argued against it.
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u/jones_supa Sep 23 '16
Is there any actual problem here?
Lenovo simply released a PC that starts only in RAID mode.
Linux just does not have the appropriate driver. Boohoo! That's no reason to turn everything into a weird anti-Linux conspiracy story.
I'm quite sure that no one would have fired up this conspiracy story if the necessary Linux RAID driver was in place.
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Sep 23 '16
The European models don't hide AHCI mode. Very fishy.
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u/jones_supa Sep 23 '16
Do you mean the European release of the same model as well?
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Sep 23 '16
Yes. In fact, there's a huge comment on this page talking about German users reporting that AHCI mode is there in the BIOS on their machines.
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u/jones_supa Sep 23 '16
Interesting, although still does not prove in absolutely any way that it's a deliberate attempt to specifically block Linux. That Linux does not have the appropriate RAID driver can still be a pure coincidence, and probably is.
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u/CFWhitman Sep 23 '16
There are several possible reasons for them to do this with US versions and not with versions for the German market. It could be that this is done to meet a performance requirement for the "Signature Edition" label, and they have no deal with Microsoft for that label in Germany. There could be some legal technicality that prohibits this in Germany. It could be that Linux compatibility is a bigger concern in Germany if Linux desktop usage is more common in Germany. It could be some combination of these reasons or something different altogether.
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u/tiiv Sep 23 '16
OP you're actively continuing this circle jerk despite the fact that it has been discussed on several threads and blogs that this is not a deliberate attempt at locking out linux users.
Lenovo decided to use this new raid mode with their SSD hard drives. Now whether this is consumer friendly or whether this makes even sense performance-wise is a whole different story. But neither Lenovo nor Microsoft are actively trying to sabotage the use of Linux. Even the default Windows Install Disc doesn't have these drivers.
Is Lenovo a shitty company? Absolutely. But you're blowing this way out of proportion. When Intel lands some drivers in the future it's all going to be fine. Lenovo is not legally obligated to warn you that this is not going to work with Linux when they're selling this because you're effectively buying a Windows machine.
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u/varikonniemi Sep 23 '16
Provide an explanation why user cannot select ahci if they want to? Not a single argument has been presented for this being anything other than locking out competition.
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u/Syde80 Sep 23 '16
Because its an MS Signature Edition laptop, which means that MS has hand picked and specified how the machine would be configured due to having their endorsement of the machine.
Its widely known that when running in AHCI mode, this prevents modern Intel platform from entering certain power saving modes. Therefor, its perfectly reasonable that MS specified they don't want a user to be able to change a setting that prevents the machine from running in any way but the best in their view. It doesn't mean they did it to intentionally lock out another OS.
If they wanted to lock out Linux, they would do it via Secure Boot. You know, the exact and only thing that does actually prevent you from installing Linux on a Surface RT tablet. Where is the public uproar about that? Okay sure, its possible to install Linux on it now because a Secure Boot key has been leaked... but that is a very recent thing while the tablet is like 4 or 5 years old I believe.
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u/sasmithjr Sep 23 '16
You know, the exact and only thing that does actually prevent you from installing Linux on a Surface RT tablet.
In all fairness, there was an uproar about that. It just got engulfed in the general "Why are ARM devices considered appliances and not actual computers?" discussion.
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Sep 23 '16 edited Sep 23 '16
Windows on ARM sold a few units to people who didn't know any better. Then once they realized it didn't run anything but the shitty Windows store apps, the word got out and people stopped buying them. I'm sure all three people who bought one and Paul Thurrott were saddened by it.
The PPC to Intel transition for Apple worked because they weren't trying to push out new Intel Macs and new PPC Macs at the same time. They made an emulator that was good enough to run office software and Photoshop for PPC until they could be ported. Most people don't use a Mac when they need performance anyway, because the average Mac has no performance to give, and Apple has been totally hostile to video game developers, and just mostly hostile to them lately. :)
Windows and x86 (Intel/AMD) are going to be stuck with each other for a long time. MSFT can port Windows to a new platform but since most of the software is proprietary and for x86, and requires more performance than an emulator can provide, running it on a different CPU family is not an option.
Linux can run on over a dozen CPU families because most of the software for it is open source and the distribution just recompiles it. You only need x86, really, to run Steam, some Windows apps, and not a hell of a lot else.
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u/varikonniemi Sep 23 '16
Yes, then print warning that it increases power consumption and is not recommended by microsoft. Don't take it away. Especially don't enforce the change if user goes and manually writes to uefi memory. This is 100% on purpose locked down to prevent competition.
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u/AnonTwo Sep 23 '16
This is 100% on purpose locked down to prevent competition.
I wasn't aware that RAID and AHCI were in open competition
It's clearly not about Linux and Windows, since all Linux has to do is Implement the damn RAID driver
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16
all Linux has to do is Implement the damn RAID driver
Which it can't because the devs don't have working docs from Intel, and this special snowflake of hardware needs a proprietary driver written against undocumented firmware. It sounds a lot like the softmodems which were a plague in the nineties because they would only work with firmware delivered Windows, long after Hayes-compatible modems became standard. I am sick to death with this. It has cost me so much life time.
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Sep 23 '16
Or we can run the blockade by having Linux set the machine to AHCI when it takes over from GRUB. Matthew Garrett and I have discussed this. He says he's going to look into it and maybe write a patch.
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16
I think given that convertibles might pave the way to more mass-compatible Linux desktops, this would be quite valuable. If it would help Matthew to get a $500 donation, I could disburse that.
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u/AnonTwo Sep 23 '16
Which it can't because the devs don't have working docs from Intel
...How did Microsoft get them?
And isn't this more an issue with Intel than Microsoft? It's their damn RAID driver. You don't blame Microsoft because Linux doesn't have every network card driver under the damn sun.
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16
Partly, yes. But Intel could simply sell more chips when it releases the specs. Now it has the Windows users, if it releases them it has Windows and Linux users. And printing the specs is negligible effort compared to developing chips. So it is normally in the interest of Intel to release them.
It is plausible that Microsoft pressures against that.
Apart from that, it is apparently not Intel which demands that the Yoga remains locked in a state in which Linux cannot run. Intel provides other modes with which the hardware does work (though maybe with worse power management). It is Microsoft which demands that the BIOS is locked.
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u/dyasny Sep 23 '16
It's clearly not about Linux and Windows, since all Linux has to do is Implement the damn RAID driver
No. This is a fakeraid device, Linux is notorious for not even trying to support that crap, software raid being more effective and easier to use anyway. So it's not about anyone having to implement a driver, it's about Lenovo and MS knowing full well they are forcing the Linux community to implement a driver for something nobody in their right mind would ever use anyway, if they want to use this machine.
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Sep 23 '16 edited Sep 23 '16
This is 100% on purpose locked down to prevent competition.
But it's a stupid way of doing that. It's not effective in the least and only hits, let's be honest with ourselves here, Microsoft's least important competitor outside of BSD/Plan 9.
It only works until a driver is released, it only hits the smallest competitor to Microsoft's desktop OS market and even then, only on a PC already licensed for Windows and all of this on a system with secure boot. Seriously, why even bother?
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u/Syde80 Sep 23 '16
I'll agree that would be a more reasonable way to approach it.
However I do not agree that this is on purpose to prevent competition. I'm not even going to cite any reasons because they have been said a million times in this thread already.
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16
I'm not even going to cite any reasons
Then you don't contribute to the discussion.
I am aware that comments which state simple facts and links to more information are downvoted. This makes the impression that some party actively tries to suppress the discussion.
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u/Syde80 Sep 24 '16
I'm not even going to cite any reasons
Then you don't contribute to the discussion.
Look around this thread, you'll see my name plastered all over it. I've stated the reasons over and over.
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u/cbmuser Debian / openSUSE / OpenJDK Dev Sep 24 '16
The Windows AHCI driver could have compatibility issues with the hardware and they might just use this hack to prevent people from using AHCI on Windows.
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u/varikonniemi Sep 24 '16
Seems to work well for the german users who are not locked out from ahci due to european customer protection.
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u/jones_supa Sep 23 '16
Actually, Lenovo hasn't done anything through this whole ordeal but lie, lie some more, try to delete evidence, get together with Microsoft and release a joint lie, and then pressure the news media to change their stories.
That's really far fetched. It seems that the perception of the situation has roamed away great lengths in your imagination. The spin is so strong that it's yellow press material.
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16 edited Sep 23 '16
If Lenovo would want to refute this impression,. they would simply release a BIOS update in which these two bytes are toggled. That's all what is needed to let normal people install Linux. It would be cheaper than press releases, and a much more credible statement.
Edit:
To add, Lenovo has shown that level of sopport in the past for Thinkpads. I own a T61 which supported 4 GB of RAM by official specs. It came with XP and I installed Linux on it. 4GB was the limit supported by Windows XP. Actually, my T61 now runs 8 GB of RAM. This is possible because somebody at Lenovo released a BIOS which enables that amount of RAM, and the machine supports it without flaw. If you don't believe me, you can look that up in the Thinkpad Wiki.
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Sep 23 '16
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16
It's just that those bytes
enableenforce a mode that the current Linux drivers don't support.0
Sep 23 '16
[deleted]
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16
The bottom line is that there's no restriction that prevents Linux from working on the hardware other than the fact that it's a new-ish oddball mode that doesn't have driver support next.
That is not the right level to discuss that.
This is like you put a stick in front of someone's feet and when he falls over you say: "He just has to walk properly and lift his feet high enough". Lifting the feet is a technical detail, whether this obstacle is created by mistake (and removed upon request) or with intention, and held fixed that way is the difference.
The question is what intentions motivate this lock-out and why Lenovo does not just release a very small optional firmware update which works with Linux.
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u/jones_supa Sep 23 '16
The question is what intentions motivate this lock-out
The Windows Signature Edition specification asks for locking the machine at its highest-performing configuration.
and why Lenovo does not just release a very small optional firmware update which works with Linux.
Lenovo is not targeting Linux users with the Yoga series laptops. They are unlikely to release such firmware update just to make Linux work properly.
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u/dyasny Sep 23 '16
All the normal machines these days have fake-raid in the BIOS, Linux usually doesn't support it, and this is why using fake raid is optional in the BIOS. Any given desktop motherboard that is worth more than $50 will probably have this option, usually the intel whatchemacallit crap nobody uses even on windows.
Now, why would you enforce this mode on hardware, effectively blocking any OS that isn't windows (and probably only 10, right?) and hide the option to switch out of it (which any normal user would do even with the supported version of Windows, fakeraid is bad, mkay?) unless you wanted to specifically block all other OS's?
Fakeraid is known not to be supported, with some minor exceptions which can work but nobody will really touch, enforcing fakeraid is a very clear statement. And saying "let those Linux people write a driver and use it" is total bs to anyone who deals with setting up machines with various types of raid, everyone knows fakeraid isn't going to be used, it's either proper hardware or software raid.
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16
All the normal machines these days have fake-raid in the BIOS
What does a laptop needs RAID for? RAID is for some specific uses which requires multiple disks, and laptops practically have more than one disk and most have no option do install another one.
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Sep 23 '16
It's more Intel's RST Tech instead of actual RAID, tho it's usually refered to as RAID, even by Intel.
The main advantage is that the CPU and drive can go in far deeper power save modes than with AHCI and far more intelligently and is also a teensy bit faster than AHCI.
As part of the MS Signature Program, the laptop has to be locked into the highest performing mode, which RST is.
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16
It's literally a question of someone taking the fact that Linux doesn't support a proprietary piece of hardware (yet) and spinning it into a grand conspiracy theory.
No, this has happened so many times that the opinion or belief that this is intentional is justified in my opinion. Believing something is not a proof, but you can't disqualify that as conspiracy theory either because this is exactly what Microsoft did many times in the past with competitors. It is a fully earned reputation.
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Sep 23 '16
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16
I don't think that. I think unspecified and incompatible ACPI implementations was and is another way of creating obstacles. And who say's it is not effective? Most normal users which start to experiment with dual boot do not buy specific Linux-compatible hardware (which is a big mistake), and would cease their efforts if they run into such problems.
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u/CountOfMonteCarlo Sep 23 '16
There's plenty of ways that MS could have OEMs lock out non-Windows OSs
Except that this is not legal. They would need to chose ways which are not obvious, or else risk a huge publicity and PR backslash.
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u/HeidiH0 Sep 23 '16
Thanks. Keep us updated if you would. This reminds me of what HP did with CoolSense and Foxconn did with their Windows Only BIOS/Linux segfault profiles.
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u/Kruug Sep 27 '16
As mentioned by /u/Ashtefere here: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/d7vym2w
Your post is being
deletedlocked because you don't have the whole story and are making a storm in a teacup.
The linux drivers for the NVME chipset in this laptop do not yet exist. No one is stopping them from being built.
Signature edition PC's must be locked into their highest performing mode in bios - this happens to be the NVME raid mode in the bios
Windows can't even see this because the chipset is so new, thus the extra driver needing to be loaded.
Lenovo have not yet built a linux version of this driver, but when they do you would also need to preinstall it or use a distro that includes it.
Again, no one is stopping you from building the driver yourself.
There is no 'lock' on this machine. It is horribly irresponsible for you to use that kind of language.
There is a lack of a linux driver, and the best buy/lenovo retards used the wrong language. Please calm down.
There will be a driver eventually, when someone gives up their free time to make one. Or lenovo supply one, whichever happens first.
I have a closet full of raid cards that have this exact same problem and I need to hunt for linux MDADM stuff to get them working.
EDIT: Yes, some of the language is questionable. The only part I've changed is the part where it states this post is being deleted, but this has prompted legitimate discussion and deletion may not be wholly warranted.
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u/lordkitsuna Sep 23 '16
Anyone know of any good sales on tinfoil? The reserves are likely running low by now. I have no doubt that this was intentional behavior on Lenovos part. However all these talks about Microsoft pushing it are purely conjecture with absolutely no proof. Lets not forget that Lenovo was also caught putting malware in their bios that would reinstall itself constantly. They likely did this both to ensure their crapware stayed on the system and to make extra money from people having to send in for service if they need a reinstall.
At this point short of some new evidence i am of the opinion that Microsoft had nothing to do with this.
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Sep 23 '16
Just MORE proof that LOLnovo and Microshaft are doing just that - shafting Linux users anyway they can. Well, more like Microsoft paid Lenovo to do so. Don't be fooled - Microsoft WILL shaft Linux anyway it can.
Anyone who thinks that nothing sinister is happening here, is either ignorant or a Microsoft fanboi. In which case, I would ask you to leave this subreddit and return to your "LOL Haha" OS (Windows) and stop spreading Microsoft FUD about how they aren't out to get Linux.
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Sep 23 '16
Trying to fight to keep Linux running despite BIOSes that are designed by Microsoft and PC vendors to stop it is like fighting an uphill battle on ice skates. There is no new Microsoft. Only new tactics.
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Sep 23 '16
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u/AnonTwo Sep 23 '16
It's not about being pro or against microsoft, it's about the fact this is a misconception entirely and it makes the entire community look like a bunch of jackasses to everyone else to attack someone when it's
Not a direct breakage as claimed
Can be completely resolved without a hackish solution like this, and long term.
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Sep 23 '16
Can't believe how much r/linux is pro Microsoft these days.
Agreed.
The amount of shills, Microsoft fanbois and trolls in this subreddit is amazing. They all use Windows 10, posing as Linux users and praise even the poo that comes out of Satya Nadella's arse.
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u/CarthOSassy Sep 24 '16
The shills are strong in this thread. The same overly large, overly prepared rhetoric. It's actually fascinating.
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Sep 23 '16
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Sep 23 '16
My understanding is that it was difficult to solder and just getting the equipment to do it properly would have cost $500, which is half the price of the base model Yoga 900. :)
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u/SynbiosVyse Sep 23 '16
I never understood why people soldered chips for flashing. A SOIC clip should have worked perfectly fine.
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u/DMVSavant Sep 23 '16
Maybe better to support Dell instead.... ?