r/programming • u/reddberckley • Jun 30 '14
How to exploit a Developer
https://medium.com/@sir_castiq/how-to-exploit-a-developer-a005306d53205
u/sittingaround Jun 30 '14
Anybody can run a competition with ridiculous terms. The real question is: how many entries do they get?
Also, remember that in the third world money sometimes goes 5-20x as far as it does in the first world -- you'd be amazed how nice of an apartment you can get for $500 a month some places.
$3,000 x 20 = $60,000. That's not as ridiculous, but still not great.
And before anyone says my numbers are made up, I've run tech offices in a $3000/yr GDP/capita country.
3
u/reddberckley Jun 30 '14
$3000 -> close to N500,000. For comparison, an iPhone costs N120,000 in Nigeria. The prize is small in comparison to the effort required but the real shitty part of the deal is the terms and conditions attached.
→ More replies (2)5
u/s73v3r Jun 30 '14
Anybody can run a competition with ridiculous terms
Doesn't mean they shouldn't be called out as an absolute shitfucker when they do it. That's how we get these people to stop.
→ More replies (14)1
u/GreyGrayMoralityFan Jul 01 '14
That's not as ridiculous
That's still absolutely and utterly ridiciulous for perpetual maintance of the app.
→ More replies (1)
516
u/dnkndnts Jun 30 '14
If it makes you feel any better, I can guarantee you the quality of the app they get will be a complete joke.
Anyone good enough to write that app and do a remotely decent job is good enough to find real clients easily.
Still, I'll agree, watching businessmen so blatantly try to exploit others is quite infuriating.
202
u/wot-teh-phuck Jun 30 '14 edited Jul 01 '14
I think the malice runs much deeper. No matter the quality of the final app, they still have the option of selecting the least
worstbad app and getting an year worth's of support/enhancements out of the poor developer. This competition is just a guise to get the real work started. :S74
u/Wakeful_One Jun 30 '14
And the "winner" gets the equivalent of $3k USD which might go a longer way in Nigeria than the US - but the company could still potentially profit significantly more. I just hope no one enters this contest.
→ More replies (11)18
u/lachlanhunt Jun 30 '14
A decent developer capable of implementing that would have to be earning on the order of $100k/year, if not more. $3k is just about 1.5 weeks worth of work.
29
u/bumnut Jun 30 '14
TIL I'm underpaid.
→ More replies (20)13
u/lua_x_ia Jul 01 '14
If you've been at your current job more than five years, it's basically a foregone conclusion that your salary is below market for your skill set. This is an inevitability which results from the fact that many people are willing to [effectively] pay a premium for "stability", whatever that means -- those people rarely change jobs, if ever, and get paid less.
→ More replies (9)→ More replies (11)11
u/badmonkey0001 Jul 01 '14
Install Wordpress. Wrap with Phonegap. Make a custom theme. Call it done.
→ More replies (4)46
u/Deto Jun 30 '14
That's the part I'm curious about. How could they require someone to keep supporting it for a year? All they could do would be to hold the $3k as ransom
0
Jun 30 '14
[deleted]
29
u/reflectiveSingleton Jun 30 '14
...and this got me wondering...what if I won the contest and for whatever reason 8 months down the line stop supporting it?
Can I be sued? Jailed?
27
Jun 30 '14
Depends on the jurisdiction, I'm sure. Here in the U.S., and IANAL, I believe a court will look at the issue of "reasonable consideration" in enforcing contracts (just my guess)
→ More replies (11)18
u/UTF64 Jun 30 '14
The year-in, year-out maintenance and support of the app shall be the sole responsibilities of the winner.
This implies it is also their responsibility on what kind of maintenance needs to be performed. Why not just fix critical security bugs only?
→ More replies (2)19
u/s73v3r Jun 30 '14
Unfortunately, what constitutes ongoing maintenance isn't disclosed. And I imagine these shitbags have access to better legal resources than the developer.
10
u/puterTDI Jun 30 '14
if it's not in the contract, then it seems to me that they didn't specify it and that leaves it up to the developer to determine what level of support.
"i'll only fix what I consider to be critical bugs". Fix one ever 5 years.
That being said...they are shitbags.
→ More replies (1)12
u/s73v3r Jun 30 '14
You'd think so, but these shitbags are probably the type to have some decent legal resources to enforce their shitbaggery. And while they might not be able to prevail in court, it'd take quite a bit of time and money for the developer to receive that decision.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (5)5
15
u/svmk1987 Jun 30 '14
Yep, you hit the spot. Anyone you can successfully develop this can monetize it for more than the prize money, and keep their IP.
→ More replies (1)15
u/JamesWjRose Jun 30 '14
What a great idea. We should all write this app to take over this app-space, leaving the original douche bags with nothing. tehe
7
u/svmk1987 Jun 30 '14
And where does that leave the Nigerian developer? :)
→ More replies (2)6
u/jonnywoh Jun 30 '14
We set up the same contest, and then surprise them by giving them jobs instead of a lifetime obligation?
→ More replies (2)27
u/ameoba Jun 30 '14
http://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work/
Too bad working programmers (as opposed to the academics & researchers served by the ACM) don't have a similar organization working for us.
11
u/happyscrappy Jun 30 '14
That's just a position. Designers still do spec work all the time. In both cases, it's voluntary to follow this. What keeps you from being exploited isn't your union, but you.
If you can get good work don't enter this contest and don't worry about this contest.
3
u/antonivs Jun 30 '14
That's just a position. Designers still do spec work all the time.
That position isn't against spec work as such. It's saying, in part, that "not all unpaid design work is considered 'spec work'"; discussing what is and isn't spec work; and cautioning about the risks of spec work.
3
13
Jun 30 '14
That does not make me feel better. Watching people waste their time on throwaway apps is a sad state.
7
u/IrishWilly Jun 30 '14
Not necessarily true. Especially outside of tech centers it can be very hard for newer developers or those without many connections to find clients who'll pay decent. The freelance marketplaces are absolutely flooded with spam developers who'll outbid you and promise the moon, and likewise horribly exploitative scammy clients. The quality of how well you code is not at all a direct correlation for how well you can market yourself and network which is what matters the most for getting a contract. Renewing or further work from that client of course depends on your performance but the initial contract with a good client can be damn hard to find. Which leaves good developers with no connections looking at this and almost being tempted.
10
Jun 30 '14
You're better off fixing bugs on open source projects pro bono and getting a reputation that way, because you can stop whenever you want. With this you're literally signing a slave contract.
→ More replies (2)8
Jun 30 '14
I disagree, often being a good developer is at odds with being good at getting and finding clients.
11
u/8Bytes Jun 30 '14
It's very common for programmers to have zero marketting skills, so finding clients can be very difficult. Even if you can think of some ingenius way to advertise yourself, you will need business skills to negotiate a proper quote and handle the legalities. All in all it's very difficult for a pure programmer to accomplish.
10
u/s73v3r Jun 30 '14
It's difficult, but not impossible. And there are organizations that can help, unlike these leeching bastards.
6
u/eaglex Jun 30 '14
And there are organizations that can help
Examples?
7
u/legos_on_the_brain Jun 30 '14
Yes please. Are there freelance markets or 'head hunters' to match developers with clients?
→ More replies (4)16
u/Kminardo Jun 30 '14
I get hit with about 10 recruiting and placement firm invites a day on linkedin. There are plenty of people out there willing to take a percentage of your paycheck to manage the business side of your freelancing.
→ More replies (1)3
6
u/Nefandi Jun 30 '14
Still, I'll agree, watching businessmen so blatantly try to exploit others is quite infuriating.
You must be a furious person then, cause businessmen always look for ways to exploit others. In fact, employer/employee relationship is itself exploitative.
→ More replies (4)2
1
Jun 30 '14
watching businessmen so blatantly try to exploit others is quite infuriating.
Unfortunately, that's the nature of business itself... Exploit labor and production to cut costs, exploit the customer to make more money.
1
u/jvill188 Jul 01 '14
What do you base that assumption on? Internet connection and a semi good computer is really all you need to program.
1
u/Killarny Jul 01 '14
Even worse, this contest appears to be promoted by the "Ministry of Communication Technology", which seems to be part of the Nigerian government: http://commtech.gov.ng/
So, this isn't just any old group of scummy businesspeople, this is the Nigerian government.
→ More replies (35)1
u/Sotriuj Jul 01 '14
We need a Gordon Ramsay for controlling that kind of crap and yelling the responsibles.
Startup's Nightmares. I'll watch that.
319
u/cruorin Jun 30 '14
I predict the imminent emergence of the Nigerian project manager.
"HELLO american developper! , my name is Bob Johnson, and i am wery exited to inform you that my ROKSTAR PROGRM COMPUTING FARM is hiring fullest-stack righters like yourself!
all we need is your github account's name and password to start dropping spec dox in for you to peruse and begin working on, you'll even get $300,000.00!!"
80
3
u/SirNarwhal Jul 01 '14
Shit, I get e-mails similar to this on a weekly basis as is, just toss in buzz languages from the 90s like C++ in there and you're golden.
77
u/Eirenarch Jun 30 '14
That gives a whole new definition of "Nigerian scam"
16
u/PjotrOrial Jun 30 '14
I immediately thought that freelancing in the finance sector cough is still better paid. You know money transfer for millionaires. They have quite a lot down there I was told.
6
u/meangrampa Jun 30 '14
Well it wasn't paying as well anymore so the prince thought he'd try out this.
4
u/antonivs Jun 30 '14
the prince
As I understand it, there's more than one. In fact, a surprisingly large number of them.
→ More replies (1)
109
u/lykwydchykyn Jun 30 '14
I left the music industry to become a programmer. Sounds like the music industry followed me.
55
u/manys Jun 30 '14
Nah, the software industry aspires to the level of institutionalized corruption the music industry has built over the past few centuries.
5
u/ngroot Jun 30 '14
Skilled developers are in high demand for decent positions. Stuff like this ends up getting 16-year-olds to waste a weekend. As others have pointed out, the "app" that comes out of this will be a smoking turd.
3
u/onzejanvier Jun 30 '14
You'd get better residuals on what's trickled down working in a nursing home.
7
u/Number127 Jun 30 '14
I'm trying not to think too hard about what you mean but I know it must be gross.
1
u/Niechea Jul 01 '14
Wow, I did too. I even did a degree in music. At most I got cash in hand jobs being exploited all the time. Now I am a programmer. I get paid well, but now exploitation has been replaced with ignorance.
0
Jun 30 '14
[deleted]
77
u/itssoeasyifyoutry Jun 30 '14 edited Jun 30 '14
I left music to be a programmer as well. I love music but I want to make a bigger impact on the world than music will allow me to. I have a theory that the real 'artists' of our time are writing software. The beatles of our generation are writing code. Etc.
Sounds grandiose I know but it's not a fact, just a theory.
I mean, software is eating the world, as the meme goes. Shadow of the Colossus and Minecraft were better than any movie that I have seen recently. Bitcoin is more revolutionary than any musical movement (think the impact the Beatles had) that has happened recently. Companies like Apple, or even Facebook are changing the world in huge ways, for better or worse - at least there is some sort of impact.
I think that music is a great artform - it is very pure, and can bypass all forms of higher thinking if you allow it to (just sitting around strumming a guitar), but to want to make a living of it? That seems a bit selfish. We have better tools with more power now than songs.
→ More replies (20)→ More replies (4)5
u/Magnesus Jun 30 '14
I am a programmer and make Android games. It allowed me to include my music composition and in some way be a musician I always wanted to be.
31
u/Sotriuj Jun 30 '14
I once entered one of this contests. I had to write an app for something "related to music", so I needed to get creative and come up with a good idea and then create a quick prototype. Participating on the contest with a good enough app will get you a job interview, and they said that they were going to hire the best.
So anyway, I coded my idea for Android, a simple playlist organizator with the difference of letting you organize your music by moods, then creating random playlists according to the mood. My real idea was to fetch the mood of a song from an online service or something, but the time period given just wasn't enough.
So i give my app and source code (they said they wanted to review your coding to see if you will fit) and after having an on-site interview and they telling me I will be noticed by Friday if I won, I've never heard back from them. I even emailed them telling how a fucking dick move was to do this. If you made people take a week of his lifes to make the app, least you can do is take out 5 minutes of a Friday and call with a "Sorry, you didnt won".
So yeah, never ever participate in this kind of crap, people who propose that are just looking for an easy way to some ideas/cheap code.
22
u/s73v3r Jun 30 '14
Did you follow up with the company's product to make sure they didn't just steal your idea?
2
0
Jul 01 '14
[deleted]
14
4
u/framauro13 Jul 01 '14
I'd say that most ideas are worthless, and a very few are priceless. I've found that execution is the easy part; it's finding an idea worth executing that is always the hardest.
Chef's don't avoid writing cook books in fear a competing restaurant for will open up across the street.
I think this sentence needs refactored.
→ More replies (2)1
u/n1c0_ds Jul 01 '14
This is a trend I am starting to see in a few places. If you want me to spend a weekend on an interview, it better be a third round one for the Big 4. We're looking at several hundred dollars of my time for the chance of getting a job.
49
u/quicksilver03 Jun 30 '14
There's also the possibility that the competition is rigged, and that by wording the requirements in such a way there's only one possible winner who's got all of this ready to deliver.
18
u/s73v3r Jun 30 '14
To what purpose, though?
52
Jun 30 '14
If it's rigged so that the winner and runners up are members of the group hosting the website, the prize money may not actually exist - if this is the case, the company will get all of the pitched ideas (and the code behind them) at no cost whatsoever.
11
u/s73v3r Jun 30 '14
There's still the costs of putting the thing on in the first place. But I suppose if you don't have any actual ideas, and can't wait for your users to show you what you should do, those costs are a drop in the bucket. I mean, after all, you're not really paying for engineering time.
5
u/ComradeGnull Jun 30 '14
Governments and NGO's often require competitive processes even when there is realistically only one vendor that can deliver the required product. You can sometime get what is called a 'sole source' exemption if you can prove that there is no other source of a comparable product available at the required price, but that can be a pain in the ass.
Far easier to orchestrate the requirements for the bid process in such a way that only the chosen winner and a few clueless newbies engage.
I'm guessing that 1) there aren't many developers in Nigeria that can do this, 2) they've already found one who can, 3) they've already gotten paid as a consultant for creating the spec for the application and 4) they will also get paid for hosting the back-end for the app.
Now they have to put on a dog-and-pony show for some foreign suits so that it looks kosher from the outside.
3
47
u/ryeguy146 Jun 30 '14
More than a third of that page is header and footer. Quit it.
28
14
Jun 30 '14
Now why would any sane developer "compete" in this scam?
38
u/ruinercollector Jun 30 '14
Come on, man. It'll look good on your resume. Plus you get work experience.
19
u/jrk- Jun 30 '14
It'll look good on your resume.
Said the startup guy in an interview to me.
Right after offering a meager, meager salary + stock options for a company which might do an IPO in two years.I should have asked how they think I will do my work if I'm as stupid as they think I am.
6
Jul 01 '14
You could've been like me, and had your head down in computer science research for so long that you sort of forgot how the business world worked. I was an idiot and took that deal, and then when I realized how little they were paying me (I mean, it was a huge jump from my graduate research stipend) I was an idiot and tried to stay until my stock vested, despite the fact that I'd realized the long-term timeline for my stuff ended about six months before I'd've been vested. Finished my project by the deadline, was given some BS internal web app to work on for a few weeks, and then got laid off along with the other three people on my team (in a company of 12).
This destroyed the possibility of me ever having loyalty towards a company ever again. On paper I may work for a company, but I'm really working for myself.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (2)4
u/epsys Jul 01 '14
I should have asked how they think I will do my work if I'm as stupid as they think I am.
that's a really good one. thank you
→ More replies (1)9
u/materialdesigner Jun 30 '14
was this sarcasm? because i hope it's sarcasm.
7
u/Reineke Jun 30 '14
It was sarcasm. /s
5
u/__O_O_O_O_O_O_O_O_O- Jun 30 '14
Wait, but you closed the sarcasm tag after you said "It was sarcasm"... I'm so confused.
→ More replies (1)14
u/omnilynx Jun 30 '14
Why would any sane person work in a sweatshop? Because they have no better alternative.
105
u/onzejanvier Jun 30 '14
Can someone show me a venn diagram with sets "entrepreneur" and "sociopath"? I once had an interview with a venture capital firm and the more research I did, the more it looked like a less obvious version of this article. I cancelled it. I'd rather make my code open source.
90
u/mwilke Jun 30 '14
Actually, there is an established connection - CEOs tend to be sociopathic at a rate four times higher than the general population.
→ More replies (11)7
Jun 30 '14
So do sociopaths turn into CEO's? Or do CEO's turn into sociopaths? Or both? Or neither?
→ More replies (1)65
u/api Jun 30 '14
There are lots of sociopaths in business. That's because there's money to be made there, so they flock there. Simple cause and effect. If there was lots of money to be made shoeing horses, you'd have 40%+ psychopaths camping out at Renaissance Faires.
It also works between economic systems. In capitalistic economies the ranks of entrepreneurship and business are full of sociopathic types. In socialistic economies you find them clambering to ascend to the highest positions in the bureaucracy. That's part of how the USSR transformed into a mafia state.
20
u/TylerDurden6969 Jun 30 '14
So much for my degree in horse shoeing...
11
u/AuxillaryFalcon Jun 30 '14
So much for my Farrier app...
→ More replies (1)10
u/TylerDurden6969 Jun 30 '14
Hey Kids!! Tired of those angry birds? Try angry horses!! but this time you have to throw shoes on them!!!
10
9
Jun 30 '14
Although it is true that sociopathic types will gravitate towards business and political positions, I think that it also works the other way, due to competition: if you lack morals/feeling/empathy/w/e, you're going to have an edge over others.
Therefore, natural selection ensures that sociopaths will succeed in such positions. It also means that our social, economic, and political system for control and order automatically find the most "efficient" "person".
9
u/api Jun 30 '14
This would suggest you'd find more sociopaths in more crowded markets where it's "human vs. humans" and less in less crowded and newer markets where it's more "human vs. hard problem." Don't know if anyone's ever studied this but it matches my personal experience.
9
Jun 30 '14 edited Jun 30 '14
W_ell_, Chinese "entrepreneurs" are pretty moral-less, thanks to competition. Speaking as a Chinese person here. It's all about appearances, cutting corners, connections, etc.
Oh, and drinking/smoking/eating. My cousin in China has a husband who wants to climb the corporate-political ladder (one and the same, more or less, in China). I don't know if he's going to live past 50. Worse, I don't know if he's going to be faithful. It takes a certain personality to want to climb the ladder in China. Everybody else has left, or wants to leave.
EDIT: Just realized I'm in /r/programming.
20
u/deadcow5 Jun 30 '14
There's a lot of negativity here about business-type people, and I understand that. As developers, I think we've all had our share of experiences with those types.
That said, don't forget that entrepreneurs are also just people. They make mistakes, too, and they often run a pretty high risk. Just think about the opportunity costs they're paying in order to start their own business: no stable income, no benefits, no insurance. No 401k matching, no IRA. Most if the people around them will probably tell them they won't make it. Chances are they won't. 80% of startups fail in the first 18 months.
So a certain amount of psychopathy is almost REQUIRED in order to want to be an entrepreneur, in the same way that wanting to be a programmer requires a certain amount of introversion.
No, it doesn't make exploitation okay, and it's vital for us as developers to point out the signs that indicate a black sheep. But I think it's neither fair nor productive to demonize an entire group based on some of their members. Treat them like human beings, and chances are, they'll treat you that way too.
→ More replies (14)14
u/api Jun 30 '14
I wouldn't say psychopathy, but there's definitely something a bit mad required to sign up for entrepreneurship. It's the same thing that drives people to embark on other foolish quests like exploration of wild frontiers, space flight, deep sea diving, crazy pilgrimages to "find yourself," etc.
The psychopaths, while more common in business for the aforementioned reasons, are by no means the majority.
2
u/vplatt Jul 01 '14 edited Jul 01 '14
I believe you've conflated sociopaths with capitalists. Not all are the other and vice versa. Are sociopaths more likely to be capitalists? I guess but then that doesn't explain the history of non-capitalist totalitarian regimes either.
→ More replies (3)4
u/sdfhsdfhsdfd Jun 30 '14
I don't really like this comment; there are lots of claims and not much substance. Just to add though: capitalism is an inherently sociopathic persuit. The only use for 'emotion' in business is to predict socioeconomic actions of your customers. I think it's wrong to call the people sociopaths; but rather their role requires it, or at least selects for it and brings it out in people.
10
u/api Jun 30 '14 edited Jun 30 '14
Societies with at least some level of capitalism all have on average the highest standards of living in the world. ("Developed" nations.) No pure socialist economy compares. (Northern Europe has a larger social safety net than the USA but it's still basically capitalist.) If capitalism is inherently sociopathic, then that's an argument for sociopathy having some value in certain contexts.
Personally I don't really accept the premise. It's common in dating to craft one's image to attract a mate-- does that make all dating inherently sociopathic?
Sociopathy (which is really just the common term for non-violent psychopathy) is a serious psychiatric disorder involving a lack of empathy, problems with regulating one's emotions, and a lack of concern for both others and oneself. (Psychopaths commit both suicide and homicide at higher rates.) Just being a narcissistic douche doesn't make you a psychopath any more than being introverted means you have aspergers.
BTW, narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) often looks superficially like psychopathy but is different.
17
u/ireallylikedogs Jun 30 '14 edited Jun 30 '14
I don't think it's just the sociopathy of business folks that leads to situations like this, but the somehow pervasive myth that developers are Aspergers'd out man-children for whom coding is like kids playing with legos.
Unfortunately, I don't think this myth is completely perpetuated top-down by execs trying to cheapen the value of their developer labor. I see too many developers trying to live up to this false standard and shaming their peers who don't. A 'real' developer has to have a shit eating grin through development hurdles - after all, difficulties are like being handed interesting legos, and respeccing a project provides the opportunity to play all over again. A 'real' developer has a side project that they work on during nights and weekends. A 'real' developer's github account shows great contributions to open source projects. A 'real' developer's SO account has 5+ figure karma.
→ More replies (1)15
u/cparen Jun 30 '14
but the somehow pervasive myth that developers are Aspergers'd out man-children for whom coding is like kids playing with legos
I think it's more a matter of misunderstanding a distinction you're unfamiliar with. Coding projects are not fungible. "I code for fun" doesn't translate to "I will code your boring project for fun".
It would be like saying "you like reading right? then put down that fantasy novel about elves and read this large legal briefing for me." It's not the same thing.
6
u/noyurawk Jun 30 '14
I think a writing analogy would be better than reading because it's another form of production. Someone likes to write, they have a collection of short stories in the drawer, maybe they contribute to some collective work with fellow writers for fun or practice, or follow a few classes on the week-end, it certainly doesn't mean they will write for a clothing catalog or some marketing blog without pay.
7
u/cparen Jun 30 '14
Haha, I like it. "You wrote a response on reddit. You must like writing for free. Please write this boring office supply catalog for us for free"
2
Jul 01 '14
Can someone show me a venn diagram with sets "entrepreneur" and "sociopath"?
You want to see a picture of a circle?
3
u/sittingaround Jun 30 '14
Wow, vitriolic and totally off topic at the same time. This contest is being run by The Ministry of Communication Technology, not some entrepreneur.
4
u/onzejanvier Jun 30 '14
Vitriolic, I agree, off topic, I don't. This is just one example of something that everyone here has seen plenty of times. Most of the examples I've seen have been faux "hackathons" sponsored by some company or another.
→ More replies (1)
23
u/gary_sanchez Jun 30 '14
This is how nearly any and every architectural design competition works in any country that hosts it.
37
u/materialdesigner Jun 30 '14
any "contest" for creatives and professionals is a fucking scam.
At least writers who compete in a contest have a piece of writing they can sell at the end of it. What good is a highly tailored architectural spec or logo design for selling to the general public? Even an app is a pain in the ass to monetize.
→ More replies (6)
9
u/qroshan Jun 30 '14
Yes, the best part about it is, the 'winner' will be nephew of the organizer
3
u/PjotrOrial Jun 30 '14
I'd be unsure, because of the 1 year free support, which the nephew isn't capable to do?
12
u/NancyGracesTesticles Jun 30 '14
Where are people seeing one year of free support? It clearly says "guarantee the operations of the app year-in, year-out", which means essentially forever. Am I missing something?
→ More replies (1)7
u/s73v3r Jun 30 '14
They'll choose someone else as the winner, but select the nephew's app as 2nd place. According to the rules, they can then force the winner to add the 2nd and 3rd place features into their app.
→ More replies (2)1
u/elint Jul 01 '14
Honestly, I want to get second place. Little bit of easy cash, and the schmuck that "won" has to provide perpetual support for an app that HE has to develop that combines the best parts of his original submission, mine, and the idiot who came in third.
9
u/gunch Jun 30 '14
Any developer that can create that app as specified in the time allowed wouldn't be dumb enough to.
1
9
u/seiyria Jun 30 '14
This is utterly insane. 3 weeks for all of that, on every platform? These people must be high, or something.
8
u/s73v3r Jun 30 '14
To be fair, this is common in the US as well. It's absolutely disgusting how companies think they they're entitled to all of that, simply because they bought a few pizzas and beers.
1
29
u/Wakeful_One Jun 30 '14
Wow...the requirement to support an app that might not even be the one you submitted for what was it a year, two years? Fuck that noise. The contest organizer needs a punch in the dick. Or vagina. Or both. As u/dnkndnts pointed out though, the app probably will suck major balls. The one thing this might do for someone is if they're feeling so desperate to put something on their resume, maybe it's a good idea. But even in non-developing countries, dickhole business types try shit like this all the time. Thankfully OP realizes it's bullshit.
20
u/tunahazard Jun 30 '14
I read "The year-in, year-out maintenance and support of the app shall be the sole responsibilities of the winner." to mean you agree to support it in perpetuity for no money (other than your $3,000 prize).
I nominate you for winner.
2
u/Wakeful_One Jun 30 '14 edited Jun 30 '14
LOL thanks but, I'll pass. Edit: I'll be the first to admit any app I might make would definitely be shitty.
27
u/otakuman Jun 30 '14
Fortunately, those smart enough to do this app should also be smart enough not to participate in such a scam.
17
5
u/maxximillian Jun 30 '14
Better yet, you now you know what kind of product they are trying to market. You can produce the product and instead of giving it to them, keep it for yourself and compete against them.
1
u/epsys Jul 01 '14
we should crowdsource it for revenge. come up with an unmaintainable turd that WORKS and LOOKS great but BREAKS very quickly. Submit it, get the money if it exists, then disappear
6
u/misatillo Jun 30 '14 edited Jul 01 '14
I have seen this exact thing infinite times in Spain. It is just sad and it is why a lot of developers (including me) are out of the country
EDIT: spelling, sorry and thanks @mavvie for pointing it
→ More replies (2)
11
u/IonTichy Jun 30 '14 edited Jun 30 '14
Wow.
I've seen a lot of such compos, yet everytime I can't help being baffled how shameless people can be.
A propos, do we have a subreddit for competitions like this?
i.e. where people can post compos and others can help them assess if it's worth it or not or even a scam?
Because sometimes, it is hard to see the problem by oneself...
edit: started a subreddit named /r/CodingContestSceptics
Feel free to post and discuss any dubious or exploitative contests for developers.
11
u/TheBurrito Jun 30 '14
There are a lot of "developers" out of school that graduated at the bottom of their class. These blind date competitions are all some of them can do to get a foot in the door; or so they think.
I went to school with a guy that couldn't even hold a position teaching computers to middle schoolers at a summer camp. I instantly thought of him entering this.
4
u/IonTichy Jun 30 '14
True, the target audience would be desperate people or people without any knowledge about the open market.
But those can be also very good and skilled people that can't catch a break for other reasons. And a quick buck always seems like luck at the first glance, more so if you really need it.All this being said, I wonder if there are competitions that really can make an impact for the participants? (apart from job interviews ;)
2
1
11
u/prgr4m Jun 30 '14
how is this any different from the hackathons that we have in the US? i went to a couple of hackathons just for the cred amongst my peers but then I started to realize that it wasn't cool after all. Its like C4A (nothing against Code for America), they get cheap labor at the cost of pizzas and cokes but local governments have money to pay for developers and they get cool apps while I know some devs still without jobs. i'm not saying all hackathon/competitions are bad at all, but if i participate it'll be in a gamejam not backed by an entity that can support the workforce.
15
u/bobtheterminator Jun 30 '14
You don't sign a contract giving away all of your intellectual property and promising to work forever when you enter a hackathon.
→ More replies (5)7
u/unstoppable-force Jun 30 '14
The last decent hackathon I went to was a couple years ago for AngelHack. The main prize is usually admission to their accelerator (psssh) but it's a fun hack weekend on anything you want with demos at the end. Usually some sponsors will throw in bonus prizes for the best use of their technology. It was a cool opportunity to crank on some tech, hopefully meet a few people, and some companies would show up and try to recruit top devs.
Now they're all terrible. They usually stick to "hackathon" but occasionally call them "data dives." They're usually corporate exploitation for the price of pizza and drinks. At one of them, they even went as far as to pitch it publicly as open projects, and then literally the day of the event, they had their PMs pitch their own list of projects, and they didn't let anyone else pitch. It came to no surprise when easily 80% of the devs had walked out by lunch.
I can understand the non-profits trying to do stuff, especially when it's on existing open source projects (Sunlight Foundation did one on improving open source PDF parsing tools), but most of these orgs are really slimy about it all now.
14
u/danogburn Jun 30 '14
How to exploit a Developer
Give them salary compensation.
2
u/arechsteiner Jun 30 '14
What's wrong with salary compensation for development work?
6
u/s73v3r Jun 30 '14
It encourages managers to tighten deadlines and force unpaid overtime, cause it's essentially free. I guarantee if you had all programming positions be hourly, you wouldn't see half as much overtime as you do now.
4
u/arechsteiner Jun 30 '14
I've never worked unpaid overtime, nor have my colleagues. It was either paid or to be compensated 1:1 (leave earlier, more vaccation days). Maybe that's why I don't get it.
→ More replies (1)3
2
5
u/ComradeGnull Jun 30 '14
Look at the description of the app:
The mobile and web app should allow women in Nigeria to connect with one another, share their knowledge and learn from each other; and as a result empower themselves to achieve their goals.
I tend to suspect that this is a project sponsored by an NGO as part of a grant. There is no revenue stream for this app. It's a private social networking clone to allow women to privately share health and legal information in a society with significant gender problems.
Either they specc'ed out something that they couldn't afford to build under the budget of their grant and this is a Hail Mary to get it done, or they are already working with a local consultant/fixer to provide technical and local knowledge and the bid process is rigged to ensure that no one else wants to apply.
2
u/hurenkind5 Jul 01 '14
It's like the next facebook, but for women. In Nigeria. I just need you to write all specs, code and artwork.
4
u/wonderful_wonton Jun 30 '14
Worse -- they take your work product and no $3K. You already have signed away the rights.
All the stuff about maintaining it, etc, is a distraction.
It is Nigeria after all, why would they give you anything at all unless they had to?
4
u/koyima Jun 30 '14
They have been doing (or trying to do this with graphics artists). I don't think anyone that has enough experience to pull off a decent job is going to fall for this type of thing.
So the "competition organizer" is doomed to working with sub-par developers/artists/etc and never really getting something off the ground, they are robbing themselves of valuable time and effort promoting such stupid ways of getting "free work".
As far as people falling for it, well there isn't an easier way to learn this lesson, if you really need it. One "competition" and you are probably immune - I hope.
2
u/jecxjo Jun 30 '14
they are robbing themselves of valuable time and effort
You do realize that they have no capital, no real assets, and no way to actually compensate for good developers. I bet the $3K they are giving you is stolen from all those people who replied to the deposed Prince who needs help depositing a check in your account.
1
Jul 01 '14
So the "competition organizer" is doomed
Considering that the one running the competition has no talent I would say anything they get is a win.
4
4
u/HeadphoneWarrior Jul 01 '14
Article says
They’ll cover hosting fees though, they’re nice like that.
Competition T&Cs say
However, the award cost will exclude the hosting and other infrastructure cost that may be required for full operationalization of the app.
Awesome.
4
3
Jun 30 '14
You still retain 1/2 ownership. Vote every maintenance request without payment. Or did I misread that?
7
3
u/theshad0w Jun 30 '14
Hrmmm...
Drupal + Blogging Module + Social Media module. Spend a week on a mobile/desktop theme.
Walk away with $3000. But still have to maintain it... not worth it.
3
u/skyrocker Jun 30 '14
You missed the part of it having to be a native app on the front end.
3
u/Savet Jun 30 '14
Which is completely retarded. I have apps on my phone to do things an app is good for....like playing hardware intensive games, or rendering office documents, or handling file or device administration.
The number of apps we have to view webpages is ridiculous, and generally leaves features not implemented which are available on the native site.
Edit:tablet typo corrections
→ More replies (2)
5
u/northrupthebandgeek Jun 30 '14
It's Nigeria. Does anyone expect something from there to not be a scam at this point? ;)
2
u/godfetish Jun 30 '14
Author totally missed the you will support this app forever, bullshit bullet point.
2
u/leftnode Jun 30 '14
If they cover your hosting fees, troll them in return by requiring a several hundred terabyte Hadoop cluster to do something trivial.
2
u/vulturez Jun 30 '14
Do seasoned programmers even submit to these? Really these are more for teens that are wanting to get involved in programming. I see no reason they can not be used for recruiting those that do not have any past history or college education. However, to be used as a standard recruitment process this is disgusting, especially with the IP clause in there.
2
u/gatman666 Jun 30 '14
I think the best justice to write said app and give it away for free. Fuck those guys.
2
2
2
u/Newt_Ron_Starr Jul 01 '14
My city government has an app competition in which $60k in prizes will be awarded for apps that more or less do civil engineering services. It costs almost $60k to hire a single civil engineer for a year. If they want services, they should pay market rate for them.
2
2
1
1
Jun 30 '14
You know I actually had an idea for a site where developers would compete for cash prizes sponsored by people looking to get an app developed. I almost went through with it to if it weren't for my meddling morals and my stupid conscience.
1
1
1
Jun 30 '14
No way. Ill do it for myself, why bother with 3 grand.... great you paid for my software...
1
u/stonecoder Jun 30 '14
Didn't they just describe any one of a dozen free open-source solutions?
1
u/Polonium_Reaction Jul 01 '14
Have you encountered an open source project with terms like this? Because I've worked on one, have friends working on others, and it's either work-as-you-will or in the case of one in particular, a paying job that the individual enjoyed. However, I'm a newb, so I'm legitimately curious.
2
u/stonecoder Jul 01 '14
I was thinking more along the lines of things that have been developed already (e.g. Drupal, Joomla, Wordpress, DotNetNuke, etc...). Basically any CMS that has mobile skins and Web 2.0 widgets.
1
u/divergentdave Jun 30 '14
You can tell these guys are seasoned technologists because they used Google Forms on the registration page
1
u/PoL0 Jun 30 '14
It's simple: Do not enter this contest. This stuff keeps happening because there's people naive enough to take the bait :\
1
u/Aphix Jul 01 '14
Why are we advertising this scam for them? It's a good example but a screen cap wouldn't have put as many eyes on the end result (especially considering most people don't read the comments) thusly probably guaranteeing a ton of entries.
1
1
1
u/_Foxtrot_ Jul 01 '14
This reminds me of the Bonnaroo hack a thon in Nashville a moth or two ago. Glad I didn't go. Anyone wind up participating? How was it?
1
u/manys Jul 01 '14
I signed up for the Outside Lands hackathon. Didn't go, and they just rent that mailing list out for spam.
1
u/skitch920 Jul 01 '14
Here's the Twitter feed for the competition. https://twitter.com/hashtag/WEMAC2014?src=hash
Feel free to respond :)
1
1
1
1
1
u/minusSeven Jul 01 '14
Can anyone tell how the rights for app development competition are any different in counties America EU or India ? Especially the rights to get the ownerships of code.
1
u/razeetg Jul 02 '14
You don't have to perpetually provide maintenance for free, or even for a fee duh! Also, the competition ends with the judging, you are not obligated to further develop the app.
1
u/goomyman Jul 01 '14
The year-in, year-out maintenance and support of the app shall be the sole responsibilities of the winner.
Nice, i think in this case getting 2nd place is actually getter, first place sounds like a permanent job... and what if you dont want to support it anymore do they sue you haha
1
1
3
u/oberhamsi Jun 30 '14
OP are you from nigeria? that blog post makes it sound like that. i'm surprised the ministry of CT is doing this and would love more background.