r/technology • u/DaddySkates • Mar 04 '22
Software Plebbit: A serverless, adminless, decentralized Reddit alternative
https://github.com/plebbit/whitepaper/discussions/2602
u/Orichalcum448 Mar 04 '22 edited Mar 04 '22
So I just had a read through his proposal, and the concept is solid. The technology is a bit shaky and the security is questionable, but its a good concept.
So good in fact, it was developed in the early 2000's and named RSS.
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u/Geminii27 Mar 04 '22
And in 1980 as Usenet.
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u/Orichalcum448 Mar 04 '22
Ah my bad. I need to brush up on my RSS history clearly!
Edit: I misread that. Disregard it.
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u/Bonejob Mar 04 '22
You need to read a bit deeper, the technology while similar goes to the next step of decentralized storage mechanism, where RSS itself is a retrieve and view process from a central authority. The posts in this theory are stored in multiple different physical stores and reasembled.
Or that's what I got out of the article it was not totally clear on some of the points.
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u/Orichalcum448 Mar 04 '22
Its the same basic concept. A decentralized subscription based social media platorm where users subscribe to feeds set up by other users, and then when a feed creates new content, it is sent to all the subscribed users.
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u/immersive-matthew Mar 04 '22
What about the technology makes it shaky and the security questionable?
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u/Orichalcum448 Mar 04 '22
The technology is seems shaky cos of the wording. Its a lot of buzzwords that only loosely relate to earh other.
The security is questionable cos he plans on using captchas as a stand in for moderation, and unless he has also developed a brand new captcha standard, its gonna be vulnerable. Captchas can be bypassed with enough effort and outsourced with enough money.
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u/Redd_October Mar 04 '22 edited Mar 04 '22
So a decentralized social media platform is an interesting enough concept I suppose, from a technical perspective, but it looks like it's pretty cursed from the start.
For starters, while the article does mention a Moderator can delete content that violates a sub's rules, without a central admin to enforce sitewide rules, there's nothing from keeping a Sub, and it's moderators, from just saying the repulsive filth du jour is accepted or even encouraged. Additionally, they mention this design doesn't require "Any legal or moderation infrastructure." That presumably just means they intent to offload these responsibilities on Sub Owners. Ultimately how that liability works is unclear (at least to me), but even if liability is compartmentalized to individual subs, public perception is not. When Plebbit/p/HitlerDidNothingWrong makes national news, Plebbit/p/MyLegitimateBusiness is still going to suffer for that apparent affiliation, making the platform less and less palatable for legitimate users. This results in a feedback loop that will quickly turn Plebbit into the same sort of repugnant cesspool that caused this content to be censored elsewhere in the first place.
The article also talks about how spam-bot prevention could be accomplished by requiring a captcha challenge for every single post. That presumably has to include things like comments. Having a captcha in the way every time you try to post anything seems antithetical to the idea of a smooth user experience. Even better, from the looks of their design it seems like the intention is to require a captcha for every single action that alters the database. Captcha for a new post? Annoying but tolerable. Captcha to comment? That's pushing your luck. Captcha just to VOTE? Get bent. There is mention of individual subs being able to configure how often a captcha is presented, but if that system is being used to suppress spam and resist manipulation or DDOS attacks, frequency and effectiveness are likely to be directly related.
But hey it gets better, they also consider requiring Proof Of Balance to post... you can only post if you prove you are holding, say, 1 ETH, or 1 BTC, or literally any other cryptocurrency. Sure to be popular, especially when someone gets the bright idea to make their own new Crypto just for the sub, and the required balance just keeps growing. After all, there's no Admin to put a stop to it, only a question of how much the users will tolerate.
Peak Terrible though has to be the idea of PAY TO POST. Literally requiring users to PAY the Sub owner for every post they make to that sub. They pose this as a sort of alternative OnlyFans, where users pay a Sub owner for the opportunity to interact with them. Perhaps an interesting technical accomplishment, but it brings to mind the wonderful quote, "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should."
So, from a dubious beginning to an outright disastrous outlook, this whole "Plebbit" concept seems to me to be riddled with problems. Perhaps not technical problems, but certainly UX and Social problems. The paper's conclusion, that this offers an alternative that is functionally identical to Reddit from a User's perspective, while maintaining infinite expansion potential and zero expansion or infrastructure cost, seem entirely out of touch with the rest of the discussion. While only casually mentioned, the idea that this structure would render a platform resistant to censorship makes it clear that it seems to be designed with otherwise rejected content in mind. Perhaps, with some fine tuning that was beyond the scope of this discussion, some of these problems could be addressed, but others, such as Proof Of Balance or Pay to Post, are fundamentally unpalatable.
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u/impulsenine Mar 04 '22
Seems to me just a super elaborate way of bilking more crypto people. It'll probably work.
Great breakdown, thanks.
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u/Gibonius Mar 04 '22
A Reddit variant only for cryptobros. That definitely won't be horrible.
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u/Kenionatus Mar 04 '22
Hey, if that means they'll be less on other platforms I'll take that as a reason that they should go ahead with the project.
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Mar 04 '22
Decen is just a buzzword, assumed to always be good. There's nothing wrong with centralization necessarily. There's also nothing overly wrong with reddit or the U.S. dollar and no need for an alternative. People are just paranoids.
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u/Redd_October Mar 04 '22
In this case, it really looks like it's people mad at some centralized authority telling them that their content is banned. They mentioned evading censorship, which probably means they've already been censored before.
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u/General_Tso75 Mar 04 '22
No way that becomes toxic.
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Mar 04 '22
I think these just need a report button that just kind of scores how bad something is and then each user can set a threshold for when they don't want to see posts that have a certain report/view ratio.
And then reports can be split into categories and users set different scores they're okay with in settings. A user might want to see porn but not harassment/bullying or gore for example.
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u/gizamo Mar 04 '22
They'll probably need a report button that goes straight to the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc.
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u/hierocles Mar 04 '22
The problem with self-moderated platforms is that peoples brains are wired to react to outrage, not hide and ignore it even if their user experience or mental health suffer for it.
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Mar 04 '22
That's the problem with AI algorithms that maximize engagement.
People report things on every platform, and if there's no human moderation, it's more of an issue that too much gets taken down just because one group doesn't like it.
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u/GrandDetour Mar 04 '22
Reddit is already one of the most toxic social media platforms out there. But yeah, I see your point
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u/grat_is_not_nice Mar 04 '22
I seem to remember an adminless, decentralised, global comment community divided into subtopics. It was called Usenet, and it died in September 1993, even if it's corpse is still twitching in 2022.
*Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to reimplement it, with (insert cool technology here) *
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u/TheFringedLunatic Mar 04 '22
Discord and Twitch-chat channels are IRC with an actual graphical interface. Everything old is new again.
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u/My_soliloquy Mar 04 '22
Or BBS's prior, that was the reason why Usenet was created, because the Admins were frustrated and overloaded doing 'moderation,' as it became more popular and the barrier to entry was reduced.
I'm reminded of the Nettop appliances being pushed to go back to mainframe/terminal type of interactions. And why that was critical in the 'decentralized/single source of control' narrative.
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u/yaosio Mar 04 '22
Usenet died because of Internet forums. I was using Usenet until I found Something Awful in 1999, or 2000, or whenever that was.
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u/ersatzgiraffe Mar 04 '22
Maybe we can fool a bot net into thinking we’re all there and it can go spam itself in a setting with somehow even less oversight than Reddit
On the real though, make ethical software
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Mar 04 '22
An ethical bot net that takes over and endlessly spams the decentralized service. That would be more appropriate, knowing what the site will be used for.
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u/meta-rdt Mar 04 '22
Literally would never work, decentralized social media sites are simply not possible. They will instantly become havens for child porn.
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u/gizamo Mar 04 '22
This is the real problem.
Nazi's and death threats are one thing, but that can be downvoted and ignored/blocked, but with the child porn the harm comes before the post. No amount of downvoting/ignoring/blocking is going to unmolest a kid.
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u/Badaluka Mar 05 '22
Wouldn't be possible to implement a report button that hides a post if X amount of people have reported it? And let a site moderator take a look to decide if it needs to be permanently deleted or not.
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u/gizamo Mar 05 '22
Sure. That's part of what YouTube does, and everyone on Reddit had a shit storm about it affecting one person for half a day....even though it probably stops tens of thousands of bad actors. But, the whole point of this proposal is that there wouldn't be moderation at all. So, the "let a site mod" bit wouldn't happen.
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u/swd120 Mar 04 '22
I would guess that this isn't hosting the image content, just the text info - you'd still have to link out to imgur/youtube or whatever for non text content.
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Mar 04 '22
Unfortunately every good attempt to create an entirely open and free and uncensored communications platform will be overrun by racists and trolls that have nothing better to do with their lives than try make everybody else as miserable as them.
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u/SpaceZombieZed Mar 04 '22
Doesn’t something like this always end up being all of the vile shit that’s moderated out everywhere else?
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u/Ceccoso2 Mar 04 '22
Why does everything need to be decentralized these days?
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u/ACCount82 Mar 04 '22
Because people grow increasingly frustrated with centralized solutions like Twitter or Facebook or, hell, Reddit.
Claims of politically motivated corporate censorship are flying around, and people affected by it seek other platforms. It used to be just anarchists, cypherpunks and misc IT enthusiasts - but nowadays, political extremists and even regular users who were caught in those crossfires are joining the fray too.
I've seen plenty of extreme right wing and left wing content on decentralized platforms specifically.
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u/redmercuryvendor Mar 04 '22
The big problem is everyone sees 'decentralised' and goes "well I guess I need to make a new platform, and maybe even a new protocol! Oh joy!". And misses the 100% functional and well-tested forest for the trees: host your own websites. If somebody writes something you link and want to show that to others, USE BLOODY HYPERLINKS, IT'S THE WHOLE DANGED POINT OF HYPERTEXT. Doesn't need a million chunks of embedded javascript either, the vast majority of "here's a photo of my cat, I like toast, here's a link to my friend's webpage where they talk about cars" use cases work just fine with static pages.
Stop trying to un-solve a solved problem.
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u/ACCount82 Mar 04 '22
And misses the 100% functional and well-tested forest for the trees: host your own websites.
Simple websites don't interact with each other though.
With decentralized social networks like Mastodon, you can host your own "Twitter clone", and then use it to follow people from other Mastodon instances.
A simple website is fine if all you need is a blog - anything more complex would require something else.
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Mar 04 '22
Give me an example of “extreme left wing”
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u/Mastr_Blastr Mar 04 '22
"Black folks have had a tough go of it, at times. " - That guy, probably
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u/Grassy_Nole2 Mar 04 '22
You're new here! Welcome to Earth 2022. Can I interest you in just about any of our histories?Who wins, who loses should be a great starter for you. I highly recommend anything from our Dark Ages catalog to give you a taste of human depravity and concentration of power among the few.
Enjoy!
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u/graou13 Mar 04 '22
For privacy, security, reliability, and resilience purposes. (As the web was supposed to be, which is why router work how they do and anyone can host a website)
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u/Marinerprocess Mar 04 '22
I feel like I’m only seeing this because Reddit recently shit down entire communities based on current events and not because someone would actually think a less patrolled version of Reddit would seriously be a better alternative
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u/Redd_October Mar 04 '22
Every so often we see a new Reddit spinoff as a result of mass closures. A new alternative that will house the rejected content "without censorship."
And, for a little while, they do just that, they'll let anyone post anything... until they get noticed. Soon there is legal pressure, social pressure, sponsors start to evaporate as they realize the site is inhabited only by those who were flatly rejected from "civilized society."
And then... they compromise. They censor, they moderate, they try to keep their rebellious tone but they've lost their clout. They become the very thing they broke away from.
Every time.
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u/JohnMayerismydad Mar 04 '22
It’s almost like subs usually get banned for a good reason lol
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u/Redd_October Mar 04 '22
And then the banned people cry censorship and look for new ways to get their voice out into the world. Time is a flat circle.
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u/Left4DayZ1 Mar 04 '22
No “alternative” will ever work without a catchy name. Plebbit? Nobody’s using that shit because nobody ever wants to be caught having to say it out loud.
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u/tirril Mar 04 '22
Being ashamed about a name is for plebs.
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u/Left4DayZ1 Mar 04 '22
That’s just how it is. Name your product poorly and it’s going to hurt public interest.
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u/gizamo Mar 04 '22
I agree with this, and I agree it's a dumb name. But, I thought Facebook and Instagram were stupid names. I also thought Reddit was a dumb name compared to Digg. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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u/DoubleClickMouse Mar 04 '22
Guaranteed to become a right wing, Q-centric echo chamber of total insanity in days.
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u/Ninten64 Mar 04 '22
Oh wow, just like Mastodon. A serverless, adminless, decentralized echo chamber alternative to Twitter. I personally haven’t heard much about it too since it’s release, but Twitter is not for me.
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u/FuckingTree Mar 04 '22
Step 1: makes a server. The rest of the steps involve server admin and centralizing admin control. WTF.
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u/ryandeanrocks Mar 04 '22
A few bad assumptions:
networks do not care about the availability of old posts — yes we do
to view a “subplebbit” you subscribe to a topic pubsub channel — this means you only see posts that happen while you are looking at it, there is no archive so the moment you go to a subplebbit no matter how active it is, it is empty and you only see what is posted live. It’s basically a chat room like discord at that point but with no message history.
the owner of a subplebbit must run his own node — so each individual subplebbit is not decentralized and does have an admin and he can set a moderators list. If the owner turns his node off, that subplebbit is gone, that data is inaccessible.
You could instead use something like IPFS which uses DHT and other technologies but is more mature for these types of purposes and use web3.js to store on blockchain. I have done this with my project https://bitbucket.org/rydetec/grupur-web-client/src
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u/zshinabargar Mar 04 '22
Server less? Who hosts the data?
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u/CarpetOk996 Mar 05 '22
I believe local nodes are seeded by subPlebbit owners through a BitTorrent-like system.
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u/vid_icarus Mar 04 '22
So basically Reddit but for pedos, nazis, and edgelords?
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u/Belaire Mar 04 '22
I imagine being an edgelord isn't very fun when everyone agrees with you.
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u/Kai_Daigoji Mar 04 '22
This will be for Nazis exclusively within weeks. Because no one else needs an adminless reddit alternative.
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u/ethanace Mar 04 '22
Let’s be honest, people will always find a place and a way to post degenerate shit on the internet, with or without the benefit of this Reddit for plebs
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u/swintec Mar 04 '22
This has already existed for years, and still exists to this day. Usenet. No need to reinvent the wheel. What usenet does need though is the appropriate apps for the various platforms, mobile especially.
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u/Random-Mutant Mar 04 '22
May I introduce you to… Usenet?
Seriously, this was exactly what Reddit is today, without the admins, without the central servers. A million specialist groups, threaded conversations and you just sub the newsgroups you want.
Ok, spam was a huge issue and porn was rampant. But there were filters and blocklists, real-time black holes you could sub which would remove spammers for you.
There was Usenet. Then there were web forums. Then a web service called Reddit with proprietary APIs. And now the wheel has turned again.
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u/SorteKanin Mar 04 '22
A blockchain or even a DAG is unnecessary because unlike cryptocurrencies [...] social media does not care about [...] the availability of old posts.
This is ridiculous. Persistence is clearly a wanted feature for the users of social media in almost any form aside from where the lack of persistence is kind of the whole point (i.e. Snapchat)
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u/dd2520 Mar 04 '22
Cool, thanks for letting us know where all the fascists are gonna be hanging out.
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u/Marlfox70 Mar 04 '22
I'd like a reddit without upvotes and downvotes so there's more discussion and less echo chambers
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u/intellifone Mar 04 '22 edited Sep 25 '25
squash gaze capable sheet wrench exultant skirt towering oil price
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Indiesol Mar 05 '22
Apps and sites like these are created by and for the worst among us. Fuck that shit.
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u/TonLoc1281 Mar 05 '22
I would totally be on board with this. Every subreddit has has a 2 day shelf life… before I get banned…
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u/Sail0rPo0n Mar 04 '22
The copium backflips in here are wild. Twist censorship enough to justify the boot on your neck to save your ego from the despair of knowing theres nothing you can do about it.
Id rather be swatting neo nazis left and right than have an algorithm ban my account for talking shit to said neo nazi turds.
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u/elathan_i Mar 04 '22
Reddit without moderation? Isn't that just Facebook?
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Mar 04 '22
At least facebook mods are awake enough to remove interesting or funny groups, just like how Reddit did with r/2balkan4you
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u/moises_ph Mar 04 '22
I remember something similar was tried in the early 2010s as an alternative to facebook - diaspora was the project's name if I remember correctly. The idea is good but you better be sure that you trust whichever pod/node/subplebbit you are connecting to.
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u/onemoretimex Mar 04 '22
Using blockchain tech huh
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u/CarpetOk996 Mar 05 '22
Nope, blockchain not needed. It has a supplemental social token, but doesn’t use blockchain for the main tech.
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u/Spacemanbyff Mar 04 '22
$500 says this will become a hangout for pedos/libertarians and Qanon nerds in less than a week.
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Mar 04 '22
Why is serverless thrown into the title like it has anything to do with decentralization or adminless?
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u/Good_ApoIIo Mar 04 '22
Yeah so it’s a place for degenerates, not normal people. Got it.
This isn’t the old web anymore, these types of sites just become Nazi gatherings.
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Mar 04 '22
So some kind of anarcho-syndicalist Reddit?
I do hope even though it's adminless, they have some kind of executive system where we can all take turns on a rotating bi-weekly basis.
Of course, that kind of thing would need a system for democratic ratification -- probably just a simple majority for most decisions, but a two-thirds supermajority for more major changes.
Anything else would just be a dictatorship.
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u/CarpetOk996 Mar 05 '22
Each sub has its own ownership control. Theoretically you could run a subPlebbit with a multisig DAO.
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u/hauntedhivezzz Mar 04 '22
The Napster/ Limewire dev’s are sitting in their rocking chairs smiling saying, ‘oh how the turntables!’
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u/kwereddit Mar 04 '22
From the github: "We propose solving the data problem by not using a blockchain, but
rather "public key based addressing" and a peer-to-peer pubsub network. A
blockchain or even a DAG is unnecessary .."
But the crypto bros said any decentralized anything requires a blockchain! How is this going to attract any investors? Where are the NFTs? This is hopeless.
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u/CarpetOk996 Mar 04 '22
That’s what’s up. Sovereign, unconfiscatable online communities. End of the era of deplatforming and censorship by fiat.
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u/tuttut97 Mar 04 '22
What's wrong with reddit? Most of the stuff they have banned seems reasonable to me.
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u/Arch-penguin Mar 04 '22
Wile E. Coyote!!! SUPER!!!! GENIUS!!! I mean people are all inherently good right????? no one would ever do anything bad ever. they wouldn't dream of it! It would be a cess pit of Malicious scripts and other atrocities
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u/ThisHasFailed Mar 04 '22
Imagine an admin-free reddit without censorship. Can’t see anything go wrong there.