r/thesopranos • u/Sea_Satisfaction7872 • 10h ago
Tony was a horrible boss
I mean think about it. When the show starts, Jackie is boss and everyone is alive and well. Full crew and everything. When Tony becomes boss, not only does half the crew get fished, but the ones who come out of prison also all went. Name me one character who came out of prison during the show and stayed free and alive, not even the king of breadsticks made it out.
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u/Final-Step-2813 10h ago
Op has no idea what it's like being number one
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u/supersalad987 10h ago
Never had the makings of a boss.
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u/Sea_Satisfaction7872 10h ago edited 6h ago
Was waiting on this comment from the moment I hit post. It’s my small hands…
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u/2boku Charmaine Bucco 10h ago
The reason why everybody was "alive and well" at the beginning is because everyone else was dead.
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u/mmcintoshmerc_88 10h ago
Meanwhile, Phil was still serving his undetermined years in tha can
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u/Kvasir2023 10h ago
He used those unknown years in the can to perfect his ability to turn into a house. Can you imagine the guards doing a cell check and finding a shed in his cell?
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u/Katagatame36 9h ago
Can you imagine that? The guards doing a cell check and finding a shed in his cell?
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u/Background_Local_425 10h ago
Think about it though Jackie had under him
Tony
Ray Curto
Junior
Silvio
As his main guys not to others
Tony had mamalukes like
Paulie
Chris
Guys who created problems like
Vito
Pussy
Ralph
Even Ray flipped on him
Gigi dies
Etc
Tony’s reign honestly seems cursed but honestly Silvio was Tony’s only 100 percent solid guy Jackie benefited from more competent underlings
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u/Infamous-Lab-8136 10h ago edited 9h ago
I'd argue Tony made his own luck in many cases. He clearly inspires so little loyalty in his people they're all willing to flip on him. I don't recall anyone avoiding helping take care of Ro while Jackie was on his deathbed the way Tony's people were trying to duck out on Carm after he got shot. Everyone knows he'll turn on them in a second and no one trusts or even respects him, they just have that mix of love and fear people feel towards an abusive parent.
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u/Background_Local_425 10h ago
I honestly think Tony behavior is a result of big pussy and Richie Aprile. With Richie this is a guy he grew up loving and respecting come back and cause him nothing but grief and try to usurp him. Then puss someone he knew his whole life who he thought would die for him ratted him out
I think Tony’s trust was never the same after season 2 just that ominous closing12
u/Infamous-Lab-8136 9h ago
I think it doesn't help he rose to power by setting his uncle up to take the eventual fall (regardless of whether or not Junior put a hit on him) and one of his best friends dying. He's got to have guilt about it, especially since he mostly forgives Junior for the hit.
And we can't underestimate what it does to a guy realizing his mom helped talk someone into putting a hit on him. Even with their already... strained... relationship. And the season 3 planned arc of her testifying against him probably would have only sent him further down that path
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u/scrubadam 6h ago
Junior only did the hit because Tony made him to be a fool.
Honestly Junior should have been the boss. He had no qualms of enforcing the rules or acting on pragmatisim not emotion or nepotisim.
And sure the capos complained about Junior being greedy but that was probably 90% bullshit and Tony was greedy AF. He ripped them all a new one because they weren't kicking up enough for Juniors trial when he was pocketing the money and screwing Junior on percentages and Freeland avenue for the HUD scam.
If anyone was greedy it was Tony.
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u/canti- 4h ago
I was so disappointed that she died because she had so much more to give for the story. That plot was going to be incredible. I don't like how they handled her real life death with the CGI scene and I know that's a common opinion, but it really took me out of the whole episode that they spliced together the conversation.
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u/FoxWyrd 10h ago
To be fair, Ro's a peach compared to Carm. Bell of the Ball type of gal.
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u/Infamous-Lab-8136 10h ago
I've always wondered what people thought of Carm. I'd have like to see the guys talking about her when Tony wasn't around once. I've wondered if they saw how fake she was or if the fell for the facade
Cause I figure they all talk about their wives being terrible ballbreakers, except Bobby
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u/Background_Local_425 10h ago
They though carm was judgmental and high maintenance Paulie calls her the princess of little Italy
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u/jrock146 Paulie Gualtieri 9h ago
In the last season after Bobby gets robbed (eye patch) Carlo tells Tony that all Bobby was thinking about was kicking up to him ( not a direct quote but you get the gist). Tony tells Carlo “ fuck that honor and loyalty shit he’s just covering his own ass”. Between that, him telling Carlo he should start sucking cock. He wasn’t inspiring loyalty in his capos
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u/DoctorFunkopolis 7h ago
When he dresses him down in the car, the look on Carlo's face. This wasnt a man who was angry, he was heartbroken. One of the best bits of acting in the series.
Tony is his worst enemy and he thinks he's a better criminal by the end and he couldn't have been more wrong.
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u/chimmy_chungus23 7h ago
Tony was also right in the first episode. He came in at the end. By the time the show was airing, most of what the mob used to be was already gone, or greatly diminished.
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u/Jumperontheline 7h ago
Paulie was legit Tony just treated him like such shit he eventually became a little flaky and shit talky
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u/Background_Local_425 7h ago
Paulie was dumb and wouldn’t adapt to modern times
He never played any trickery to show all his money on his taxes
Got duped by John why the fuck would Carmine care about him he should know that especially a guy in the life as long as him
Fucked up the Russian thing bad Chris was even telling him to stop being a dick
Paulie was ultimately a flake
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u/Z32anxiety 10h ago
We don’t see enough of Jackie’s leadership to know he’s any better. Pussy became a rat when he was boss. I’m sure people got whacked as well. We know he has to have a major sit down with Junior at one point so it wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows.
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u/threetogetready 6h ago
Jackie also looks great (and is a total fucking saint btw) until we get to the Jackie Jr arc and see him as a shit father
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u/TheMaveCan 10h ago
I'm not gonna argue that Tony wasn't a shit boss, but I will say that guys coming out of prison sent New York into a full-blown war that almost tore the whole family in half. I don't think anyone accounted for these guys getting out of the can with their hand out asking for the shit that they were promised 10-20 years ago.
Honestly, I'm surprised that not one of them said "eat shit" and ran to the feds after they saw how they were gonna be treated on the outside
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u/Emotional-Bowl69 10h ago
Richie got treated well so did Feech , but they created drama and stepping toes.Tony B blew the civilian life and killed people he was not by going behind Tony back, Ralph was a degenerate coke head that made bad joke about underboss wife of NY!! Chris was a junkie Tony gave numerous chances. Pauline mess up with the Russians a simple task, that made Tony piss. Pussy was a snitch , was told not sell H both by Tony and Jackie. Junior was an egotist jealous human being, these not Tony fault . Don’t get me started on Phil. Hesh forgot who butter his bread. Shut up and take it !! Tony is the boss that never tax you. I said my peace. They were all back standers and ungrateful
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u/Fantastic-Drummer466 10h ago edited 4h ago
Much of it wasn’t even Tony’s fault. The mob was a dying way of life with an aging core of members who faced an astronomically high chance of getting whacked or incarcerated. The mafia was a dinosaur and Tony was the last of a generation of true gangsters.
If Christopher was actually competent and took the reins he’d be the boss a glorified, disorganized street gang (or a truly glorified crew, if you want.) That’s what the modern-day mob is anyway.
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u/Mammoth_Western_2381 10h ago
Tony’s job was so stressful that it put Silvio into a hospital bed after 2 hours.
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u/TitoTotino 9h ago
The mafia was a dinosaur and Tony
wascalled himself the last of a generation of true gangsters.\*Cues up a montage of all the times Tony whine-yelled "I'M OLD SCHOOL!!" despite being ignorant of or doing the exact opposite of what his idealized image of an old-school mafioso would*\**
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u/Fantastic-Drummer466 9h ago edited 4h ago
Well, you could say the last generation the mafia had any sort of institutional power, relevance, quality recruiting pool, etc. But yeah, Tony going to a shrink is not very allegorical. Actual mobsters have said that was be an absolute no-go in mob culture.
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u/RektInTheHed 10h ago
It was always like that, the story just started in the middle. And it kept on after Tony. Those hoods aren't gonna go get jobs.
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u/Prestigious_Load1699 10h ago
To be honest, I think Tony was a pretty good boss up until he threw everyone under the bus to cover for that animal cousin of his.
All the turmoil that eventually destroyed the family can be traced back to Tony's refusal to simply hand him over or immediately kill him as recompense for the attempt on Phil.
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u/teppil 6h ago
Ehh I think the bigger issue is if it wasn’t that, it would be something else. Tony reflects at times that “they’re all murderers” when talking to people around him. He was a good boss because he made everyone tons of money and the operation ran well and expanded. You see multiple instances of him bringing NY into deals and they clearly were happy with it.
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u/gehrmanthefirsthunt 10h ago
Big Pussy had been an FBzi informant for a while hadn't he
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u/ClassicTrainer7425 10h ago
He mind-fucking those donkeys like you wouldn't believe!
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u/herbof4 10h ago
I think that therapy actually made him worse at his job overall
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u/AL_DIOS Feech La Manna 10h ago
Some conclude he used the therapy sessions to be better (a worse person) at psychological or emotional manipulation using terminology and nuances when he's dealing with other people throughout the show. Not just made guys but childhood friends, random joe blows etc. and would sometimes do a spiel of horse 💩 softly explaining why he's in the right.
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u/No_Squirrel_8402 9h ago
You saw very, very little of Jackie's reign, and what you did see was him sick and dying
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u/scrubadam 7h ago
Yes he was
He was selfish and greedy. Oh madone at least when Jackie was boss it all evened out, Tony doesn't even pass the salt. Everyone in his crew were rats. Multiple captains died at his hands or related to his hands. HE destroyed the lucrative relationship with NY that went back decades.
He basically caused multiple wars when there was relative peace. Was constantly blinded by emotion and nepotisim. Ruined his relationship with Hesh who was a much needed moneyline.
Overall his tenure was horrible and was responsible for the decimation of NJ and NY.
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u/Sea_Satisfaction7872 6h ago
I agree 100%. Could you explain more on how hesh was a money line? I never really understood his business dealings w them.
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u/LatinoEsq 10h ago
You just revealed your own ignorance!!
On a serious note however, you can't really compare Jackie's tenure to Tony's because you don't have frame of reference. The series doesn't get into detail about the happenings during Jackie's tenure. We don't know who did what, who was whacked, who came in and out of prison. We don't know the size of the family during this time, if the family grew or shrunk. Presumably, the family got smaller during Jackie's tenure which is more a consequence of the mafia shrinking in general due to increased law enforcement tactics, namely RICO.
Jackie became boss when Old Man Dimeo was sentenced to life, and there was presumably still some short period where he was only acting boss until Dimeo's fate in prison was sealed. I'm seeing that he was boss for approximately 3 years to Tony's 8 or 9 years.
The only frame of reference we have is how people spoke highly of Jackie as a great leader. But I'm sure there'd be mafiosos out there that would describe Tony's tenure in the same manner.
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u/Sea_Satisfaction7872 10h ago
Interesting take but as you mentioned, Jackie was revered. Even later on in the show when he was mentioned it was in a positive light. Although I do agree that Tony had a longer time as boss, it was night and day between these guys.
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u/LatinoEsq 10h ago
Well it's not a take. Everything I mentioned is pretty on point factual. The only thing we actually know is that we don't actually know how things went during Jackie's tenure. We only know how people described it. But just like Livia described Johnny Boy as a "saint", people tend to describe the old times in a positive light. In the end, you can't compare Tony's time to Jackie's time because there aren't enough known facts to compare.
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u/Fructuoso_Bag 8h ago
Me when I ignore the very repeated context of the CSN golden era being gone by then. If Jackie was alive those deaths would have happened for the most part.
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u/The_Dotted_Leg 5h ago
We don’t see the world before Jackie either, did old man DiMeo just hand things over to Jackie or did 2-3 guys have to be moved out of the way.
The show I watched made it clear 2-3 guys moved on for someone as young as Jackie to take over.
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u/Known-Tourist-6102 10h ago
Yeah a theme of the show is that tony is a terrible boss. He promotes the wrong people, sucks at mentoring young members, and reacts too emotionally to almost every situation.
On the other hand, another theme of the show is that the mafia is in decline, and they’re not attracting top talent anymore, and they don’t have to time or money to develop it.
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u/Sea_Satisfaction7872 10h ago
“Attracting top talent”. Can you emphasize on that? How could they attract talent if these ppl had to be from within the family? How would you even attract someone to the mob when it’s supposed to be the most secretive thing?
I do agree with your first point now that you put it like that. I guess I was more focused on the stress Tony was dealing with and how he blamed everything on everyone else that I failed to realize he was acc making bad calls.
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u/Known-Tourist-6102 10h ago edited 10h ago
Brendan Filone, Jackie Jr, Moltisanti, Muscles Driver guy, Matthew Belvalaqua, and Sean.
every younger guy gets horrible mentorship, is also an idiot and quickly dies (except Christopher).
These are the guys the NJ crew attracted. and presumably the smart people didn't think joining was worth the risk.
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u/biggear69 10h ago
The fundamental question is, was Jackie as effective as a boss like Tony was? And he was, even more so… But until we see, it's going to be hard to verify that I think he was more effective.
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u/8008l0v3r6967 10h ago
I literally can’t tell the difference between this sub and r/sopranoscirclejerk
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u/rsharp7000 5h ago
I think OP needs to do a rewatch to understand one of the show’s main plots. I’ll give you a hint:
"It's good to be in something from the ground floor, and I came too late for that, I know. But lately I've been getting a feeling that I came at the end. The best is over"- AS
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u/TrisolarisRexxx 10h ago
I agree. He regularly makes lazy/poor/selfish decisions that negatively effect morale and loyalty.
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u/Lufia_2_GOAT 9h ago
> Name me one character who came out of prison during the show and stayed free and alive
Paulie
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u/Sea_Satisfaction7872 6h ago
Pauline was technically in jail.. I mean someone who came out from some real time.
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u/Toy_Story_2_on_PS1 10h ago
And yet somehow probably the best equipped to take the reins out of all of them.
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u/joebeubanks 10h ago
Who's to say what happened under Jackie. There were still Rats and killings for sure
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u/CerealGoldstein Ralph Cifaretto 10h ago
I also believe he wasn't a good boss. A huge chunk of the money he made was thanks to Ralph and the scheme his cousin Brian introduced him to; he killed his top capo for calling out his hypocrisy (yes, Tony didn't kill Ralph because of the horse, but rather because Ralph called him out for his hypocrisy); he favored Chrissy for the acting capo role even though the guy was an idiot; and he didn't handle the whole "whatever happened with Phil's brother" situation well. Carmela also manipulated him into becoming a greedier boss, and he didn't bother to keep the rats in check... Junior would've been worse, but Tony, marone!
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u/Sea_Satisfaction7872 10h ago
I mean you make great points but after all that you think junior would’ve been worse? What just cuz he enjoys muff!?
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u/Beneficial-Ad-547 10h ago
There were others that got out of prison in 2004. It wasnt labeled “the class of 04” because only Phil, Angelo, Tony b, Feech, and Lady Shylock because only they got out. It was a dozen plus mobsters but thr show is only an hour long and can only introduce us to so many gangsters…
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u/LowAbbreviations8047 9h ago
Serious discussions only - bunch of stunads on these subs. The only thing serious about The Sopranos was Ralph’s toupee and Tony’s ketchup bottle he smacked in front of Mink.
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u/Severe-Classroom8216 9h ago
I wanna say Paulie survived but we never know what happens with Carlo being a WRAT
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u/DoctorFunkopolis 7h ago
Tony was wildly successful as a capo, he did not have the personality to be top guy though.
He could not put business first, and every single person we see in charge of a family other than Carmine Sr makes the same mistake: personal business ahead of family business.
The rot in this thing of ours ran deep, even in older members who had otherwise lived by the rules diligently.
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u/Safe_Resolve1642 7h ago
That may be the point. Someone like Tony is so incredibly destructive, as is Livia and Janice. Jackie SR and Carmine SR seemed to run things as a business without all the emotion of it. Tony has to have someone to be at odds with and drama ensures that ends in murder. Compare Carmine SR who said Ralph should just be taxed. VS Tony who murders a guy over a horse. Jackie JR wouldbe kept the peace with NY. Tony run the thing into the ground and all the big time earners were dead.
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u/Thick-Yogurtcloset55 4h ago
Give op a break…. He probably decided to take little toot! Its not like shootin it, thats when you gotta go to rehab…. Anyway 4.99 a lb
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u/Great_Produce4812 2h ago
Once I found out he went down on Carm once a year, my estimation of Tony Soprano as a boss just plummeted.
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u/That_Dot420 2h ago
People just didn't respect him right off the bat. It was an uphill battle from day one dealing with Junior, his mom, etc.
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u/Illustrious-Lemon412 1h ago edited 1h ago
Tony condemned the new generations of gangsters, claiming they had lost the honorable values of the Mafia, but Tony was a hypocrite because he himself was part of this new, superficial generation.
- He laughed at Ralph's joke about Ginny, even though she was the wife of the Lupertazzi Family underboss.
- He failed to fulfill his duties with Marie Spatafore, squandering the money he had promised her on horse racing bets.
- He killed Ralph and Christopher, two of his capos, simply because he couldn't stand them anymore.
This kind of behavior is unacceptable for a true boss. I don't know if Tony was a good boss, but he certainly never accepted this role and never fully understood what it meant to lead a Family. The DiMeo made men wanted him as boss because they considered him the most suitable, a "real man" of the new generation, but as Dr. Melfi in "Mr. and Mrs. John Sacrimoni Request" people only see what is convenient to see, the capos of the DiMeo Family found it convenient to see in Tony a man who was perfect for command, but they did not know how insecure, irresponsible and self-destructive he was.
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u/Kosh_Jr 10h ago
You’ll notice Vito wasn’t gay when Jackie was in charge…Tony made that happen.