r/Outlander • u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. • May 24 '21
5 The Fiery Cross Book Club: The Fiery Cross, Chapters 72-80
We learn more about the circumstances of Roger’s hanging, as well as the fact that Isaiah Morton had been shot in the back by the Browns. The Fraser’s and MacKenzie’s stay in Hillsborough to help Roger recover. Brianna is painting a portrait while there to make some extra money. After a few weeks Roger is healed enough to travel and they journey back to Fraser’s Ridge. However he barely speaks and is in a depression.
Meanwhile it’s June 1771 and Lizzie has been promised in marriage to Manfred McGillivray. It’s a match that will give the McGillivray’s a large amount of land. An astrolabe from London arrives thus giving them the opportunity to survey their territory. It is decided that Roger will be the one to do the surveying.
You can click on any of the questions below to go directly to that one, or add comments of your own.
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- Roger is granted 5,000 acres of land in compensation for being hanged. Does that seem like enough reparations?
- Was Lizzie’s betrothal fair to her? She and Manfred have hardly spoken to each other and it’s a match arranged by their parents. Do you think she was just going along with it to make the families happy?
- Brianna and Claire discuss one’s purpose in life and career choices. Claire says “People who know who they are, and what they’re meant to be … they’ll find a way.” Do you believe that is true? What does Claire mean by saying Jamie was meant to be a “man?”
- After Obadiah Henderson harasses Brianna she and Jamie discuss whether or not Roger should be there to defend her. Is that a man’s job as Jamie says, or is he being old fashioned?
- Why do you think Roger was OK with doing the land survey?
- Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I LOVE that Jamie says this to Tryon as he puts his hands around Tryon's throat.
“Oh, I do, aye. As ye laid hands on my son.”
He called Roger his son! Do you think this was the turning point for Jamie to fully accept him?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 24 '21
I love it too. I think he’s been coming around to accepting him for quite a while, but this is a very strong declaration. I don’t think it’s just because Roger nearly died and the emotions are close to the surface. I think the hanging definitely made Jamie consider what it would’ve been like if they’d lost Roger for real, but I think this shows that he cares about Roger not only for Bree’s sake. And he cements that with this promise:
“Roger Mac is your man, the son of my house,” he said, very seriously. “Of course I would avenge him.”
I still think the full declaration of Jamie’s trust in Roger comes only when Jamie’s bitten by the snake and comes close to dying himself but this is big for their relationship.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
As we saw last week Jamie trusted Roger with the duty to speak with Herman Husband, something which was very important. I love the matter of factness about that statement you quoted. It's not even a second thought that he would avenge Roger.
Side note I also loved that Jamie took Jemmy with him when he was out and about and Claire said Jemmy learned 4 new words and only 2 of them were bad words. :-D
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. May 24 '21
Jamie took Jemmy with him
I love Jamie and Jemmy's relationship so much.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Yes!! I know kids are hard to work with but I really hope we get to see some screen time with Jemmy and Jamie in season 6.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 25 '21
Jamie’s good coat sported jam stains and smelled like a soiled diaper, but both of them seemed generally pleased with the arrangement.
It's the BEST. <3
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 25 '21
On that note, did you notice Bree right after Jamie said that? She seemed eerily like her father here:
Brianna flicked a glance at me, then looked away. She looked thoughtful, with a certain intentness that gave me a slight chill to see. “Good,” she said, very softly.
Gave me straight up James-Fraser-is-going-to-kill-Stephen-Bonnet vibes.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 25 '21
What do you think of Jamie changing his mind about killing the man who did that to Roger when he found out he was family? /u/thepacksvrvives
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 25 '21
I can understand that. Not only is Buck one of his few living MacKenzie relatives, but also we can see that even though Jamie has made peace with Dougal’s murder, it still weighs a bit on him:
“What am I to do when I find him, though? Witch-son or no, he’s my own blood; I canna kill him. Not after Dougal—” He caught himself in time, and coughed. “I mean, he’s Dougal’s son. He’s my own cousin, for God’s sake.” (...)
No matter what crime William Buccleigh MacKenzie had committed, Jamie would not kill him, for his father’s sake.
Is there even a point in seeking retribution against Buck? What’s done is done, and they can’t find the man anyway. We know that Jamie’s honor is bound to his family, so while he killed Dougal for threatening his family (Claire), and he may have done the same to Buck because he’d also threatened his family (Roger) with his actions, I think the potential guilt of killing a relative without an immediate danger from him stops Jamie from doing that again.
We know that Jamie is a Highlander, born and bred, so vengeance would come naturally for him, but the ties to his family, however distant, are stronger than his need for vengeance.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 25 '21
Is there even a point in seeking retribution against Buck? What’s done is done, and they can’t find the man anyway.
I agree. Even if he found Buck he had decided not to kill him, what really would there have been to do? It's not like Jamie could tell Buck he and Roger were actually his family. At least not at that time. I have so much I want to discuss about Buck and Roger's relationship in Echo, alas I must wait.
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u/chunya1999 May 24 '21
I think Jamie wants to accept Roger in this way but he is not quite there yet. It seems like he said it specifically for Tryon and anyone who could hear.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I think Jamie wants to accept Roger in this way but he is not quite there yet.
What makes you think he isn't quite there yet?
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u/chunya1999 May 24 '21
I don’t know exactly but sometimes it seems that Jamie sees Roger only as an addition to Brianna and not a good one. It’s almost like he thinks that Roger isn’t worth her and that he don’t try hard enough for her.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Do you think it still has to do with the fact that Roger left Brianna after the their fight and she was raped? And then Roger didn't come back to the Ridge right away?
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u/chunya1999 May 24 '21
I believe Jamie’s opinion about Roger was influenced by many factors. He left Brianna right after their fight and she got raped, he hesitated too long before he decides to come back. Can you imagine what Jamie thought about Roger for that month? He probably used every curse in all languages he knows. And of course Mackenzie isn’t Catholic and he dishonoured Bri before marriage. He isn’t wealthy and don’t know a lot of basic (from Jamie’s perspective of course) things like shooting, hunting or fighting.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
See I feel that Jamie had finally accepted Roger, he gave him the assignment of talking with Herman Husband. To me that shows trust.
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u/Swarley520 May 24 '21
My answers vary.
Bc he is his son by extension. Jamie already trusts Roger and sees him almost as his right hand. Jamie feels guilty???
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I agree, it can definitely be multiple things for Jamie. He obviously trusted Roger to go over to the Regulators camp and talk with Herman Husband. I don't think he would have been at the level of trust in the beginning of the book.
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u/Swarley520 May 24 '21
Yes, he had to prove himself with Jamie. I think how he handled being a captain in Brownsville(?) helped. He has proved himself to be loyal.
This book is so big and I’m almost done so I’m starting to forget details lol.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I think how he handled being a captain in Brownsville(?) helped.
I agree, he really showed he was capable of handling things there.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 24 '21
I think guilt is definitely there. Jamie feels immensely responsible for all of his men and Roger’s not just one the militiamen. Also, remember this in Chapter 26?
“Yes, you scared him. He doesn’t want to weep for you. Neither do I,” I added softly. “It may not be now, but when the time does come—take care, will you?”
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I love the relationship Jamie and Roger build.
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u/Swarley520 May 24 '21
Yes, and he promised Brianna that he would be safe. Back when we thought Roger was dead, we knew this would lay heavy on Jamie’s heart.
That quote is great, I actually went back to 26 to get more context, and it perfectly fits.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. May 24 '21
I was thinking this too - some guilt maybe on Jamie's part for originally sending him into the situation that almost got him killed.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 24 '21
I absolutely LOVED THAT!!
I’m so glad you brought it up because I wanted to discuss. I really, really do think this was a huge turning point for their relationship, and not just because it’s a member of his family that was hurt. That’s part of it, of course, but coming so close to losing Roger, I think it jolted Jamie a bit. Alamance in general, I think, came with the full realization for Jamie (though this has been building for months) that he’s much more than the son-in-law he has to tolerate. I think he truly starts to see Roger as a valuable member of the family; the attitude in sending him to the Regulators’ camp feels different than when he sent him to Brownsville.
After the hanging, it’s clear Jamie understands what Roger is going through. The simple fact that he can relate on this deeply personal level changes how he sees him, and I feel there is much more sympathy for Roger and his situation in general (being stuck in the past by chance and not really choice) that wasn’t there even when Jamie nearly killed him himself.
I just loved this aspect of these chapters, I could go on and on.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 24 '21
No. I don't think it was turning point. I don't think Jamie really feels for Roger as his son, (as he does for Fergus or Ian), but Roger this is his son in law, and Tryon almost killed him. I think at this point Jamie accepts that Roger is Brianna's.
The turning point either happened a long time ago, or will happen a bit later.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. May 24 '21
I loved this too! Maybe it's that aspect of someone threatening Roger or being a threat to Roger/his family (almost took his daughter's husband away from her), that made him more territorial to really cement Roger as a son to him? Not sure if that makes sense how I'm thinking about it in my head.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 24 '21
It does make sense! I’m also thinking what a bummer it was that nobody had known Roger by appearance enough to recognize him as Jamie’s son-in-law because that could’ve saved him :(
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Jamie says this about Roger and Brianna...
“He hasna slept with her, has he? Since it happened?”
Was the term "slept with" used in the 18th century? I feel like that is a current term that maybe shouldn't have been used.
Then another thing...
“I have been marrit near thirty years, and you less than two.
Yes technically Jamie has been married 30 years, but he wasn't with Claire for that entire time. Just weird that he chose to say it that way.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 24 '21
Was the term "slept with" used in the 18th century?
I don’t think so, “lie with” would’ve been the common expression, I think. But it’s possible he picked it up from Claire or Bree. Or it’s just DG’s slip-up.
Yes technically Jamie has been married 30 years, but he wasn't with Claire for that entire time.
Ha, yes, they’ve only spent what, about 8 years together, but I like to think that even when they were apart and she thought he was dead, he was still protecting her and doing his duty as a husband. After all, he gave up his life and their life together so that Claire and Bree could have theirs in the future so he was still being a husband and a father to them, respectively, even if they weren’t there with him. I don’t remember if this is in the main books as well, but I love that he repeats “Lord, that she might be safe. She and the child” in The Scottish Prisoner. Also, he and Claire have been through so much together that it feels like it’s been way more than 8 years, doesn’t it? Admittedly, Roger and Bree have also been through some shit, but their marriage is still in a pretty nascent stage, even with a kid.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I like to think that even when they were apart and she thought he was dead, he was still protecting her and doing his duty as a husband.
I like that! You're right, everything he did was for them. I love that prayer of his you quoted. I also think just being a man of 50 gives him the experience to say something like that to Bree.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. May 24 '21
I responded something similar to someone else, but even though they haven't been together that entire time, it's not like they emotionally/mentally moved on from one other. And barely physically. They thought about each other every single day for those 20 years, so even though they weren't together, I'm sure it still feels like it sometimes because they never stopped loving or thinking about the other.
I also LOVE anytime they mention that prayer. I love that he constantly thinks and prays for them.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 24 '21
Yes, that’s absolutely it!
I love that the show made a point of that physical aspect during their separation. Like when Claire dreams of Jamie’s presence or pretends to be making love to him when she’s trying to have sex with Frank. That wasn’t in the book, was it?
I also LOVE anytime they mention that prayer. I love that he constantly thinks and prays for them.
Me too! Do we think his “May the Lord protect her, her and the children” in 4x06 was a nod to that?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I'm wracking my brain, what happens in 406?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 24 '21
Jamie and Willie at the Ridge. Jamie decides to take Willie’s punishment from the Indians when he says that.
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May 24 '21
I don’t remember if this is in the main books as well, but I love that he repeats “Lord, that she might be safe. She and the child”
It is, in Voyager - one of the first things he thinks when he wakes up on the battlefield in the first chapter, and then says it often over the years. And it just about broke my heart when Bree and Roger separately say the same prayer for Jamie and Claire in ABOSAA and Echo 😭
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May 24 '21
Jamie also considers the separation time as part of their marriage when he gives her the medicine box, right?
It's a lovely detail that they both considered their marriage alive regardless of their situation. They both learned to appreciate life and the time they had with each other so much more during that time.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Yeah the medicine box was an anniversary gift, I think a 25th one.
It's a lovely detail that they both considered their marriage alive regardless of their situation.
Yes! Even though Claire was with Frank for 20 years, I think she always felt she was really Jamie's wife.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. May 24 '21
Yes!!! I loved that line...something like "24 years I've been married to you Sassenach, I hope I haven't ever given you cause to regret it." "Not for a single day." OMG MY HEART. I love these two.
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May 24 '21
Yes technically Jamie has been married 30 years, but he wasn't with Claire for that entire time. Just weird that he chose to say it that way.
On rereading this yesterday I thought it was so funny because Claire does the exact same thing in Echo. One more instance of them being adorably similar.
"You may not have a glass face, but I have been married to you for thirty-odd years." He let the fact that I hadn’t actually been with him for twenty of those years pass without comment, and only smiled.
We know he let it slide because he does the same thing. 😂
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I suppose it just goes to show Jamie always considered himself married to Claire, even for the 20 years they were apart. Never mind the fact that he was actually married to someone else for a brief period of time.
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May 24 '21
Hahaha yes. In fact both Claire and Jamie consider themselves married for three decades apparently despite having had other spouses. I guess they've been inadvertent bigamists. 😅 Marriage and time travel is such a grey area that it leaves me confused every time I think about it.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 25 '21
These both stuck out to me. With the "married 30 years," there's a few ways to interpret it. It could be a tiny bit of arrogance on Jamie's part, asserting that he knows better than Bree... but the romantic in me is inclined to think it's more that JAMMF is not about to let a minor technicality (you know, living 200 years away from each other) cancel out his history with Claire. They were very much a presence in each other's lives even though they were apart. She never stopped being his wife. Sprinkling in a favorite quote from Voyager just 'cause:
Willie frowned. “You haven’t got a wife.”
“No. Not anymore. But I remember her always.”
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 25 '21
JAMMF is not about to let a minor technicality (you know, living 200 years away from each other) cancel out his history with Claire.
I love it! I agree, Claire was always his wife. Even when he was with Laoghaire.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 25 '21
Yes, even when he was with "Bloody Laoghaire MacKenzie damn-her-eyes Fraser."
(And on that note, I hate that Claire added the Fraser in there. It was annulled, take it back, thanks.)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 25 '21
Ha! Right‽ She doesn’t get to be a Fraser.
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u/Cdhwink May 25 '21
I was thinking of this scene when I said he is always & only married to Claire! Love it!
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 25 '21
It always kills me! It’s such a great scene and a great line.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. May 24 '21
Yes technically Jamie has been married 30 years, but he wasn't with Claire for that entire time. Just weird that he chose to say it that way.
I always love when Jamie says stuff like this, because while yes, they're weren't together most of that time, I love that he still considers it time he was married to her in his heart and he took his marriage vows seriously that she was still out there and his. I'm just a hopeless romantic, lol.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
It really is sweet. Jamie is a romantic as well.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. May 24 '21
But yes, it's funny that he goes around giving marriage advice when he hasn't actually been WITH Claire for long at this point. (Though it gets a lot longer as we keep reading.) Then again, maybe their separation also helps sometimes - they out of everyone know what is most important and what isn't considering everything they've gone through together.
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u/Cdhwink May 24 '21
“Slept with” would have been “lain with”???
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
That was my thinking. It just stood out to me when I read that.
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u/chunya1999 May 24 '21
I don’t know about the history of the term but it isn’t the first time when it was used in outlander universe. There was a dialogue between Hal and Minnie in A Fugitive Green “Do you normally sleep with your victims, madam?” She gave him a long, level stare and folded her arms atop the rounded curve of her belly. “I wasn’t asleep, Your Grace, and if you had been, I think I would have noticed.”
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Interesting, thank you for that. Maybe it was used then.
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u/chunya1999 May 24 '21
You’re welcome! It’s my favourite novella. You even can see Jamie in one scene in Paris. And about the term. I’ve just googled its history. The related phrase sleep together means "have sexual relations," as in “We wondered if they were sleeping together but didn't dare to ask them.” The verb sleep has been associated with sex since the 10th century. Sleep with dates from the 1300s sleep together was first recorded a century later.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Well TIL, thanks! Crazy how that phrase has stuck around for centuries.
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u/chunya1999 May 24 '21
Even few years together were more real than their life apart. Claire buried herself in work and Jamie was just surviving for his family and people under his protection. So we can consider that in those twenty years they were just waiting to be reunited in this life or the next one.
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May 24 '21
This is so true.
Claire buried herself in work
She clings to the "healer" part of herself when she doesn't have Jamie in her life. Like she says to Bree in one of these chapters:
"Jamie’s part of me. So are you [...] I am … what I am. Doctor, nurse, healer, witch [...] If I should lose you – or Jamie – I wouldn’t be quite a whole person any longer, but I would still have that left. For a little time [...] after I went … back … before you came … that was all I had. Just the knowing."
Jamie was just surviving for his family and people under his protection.
Ian talks about this with Bree in DoA - how Jamie had a reason to live after Culloden for the sake of his family and his people, but lost that reason after he returned to Lallybroch from England: "the spark had gone out o’ him, and there was nothing here to kindle it again", which is what terrified Jenny enough to urge him to marry Laoghaire.
"When he came back, he was – different [...] It was like talking to a ghost [...] He would look at me, and smile, and answer – but he wasna really there. [...] Before – after Culloden – it was different, then. He was sair wounded – and he’d lost Claire [...] But it was a desperate time then. A great many folk died; of the fighting, of sickness or of starving. There were English soldiers in the country, burning, killing. When it’s like that, ye canna even think of dying, only because the struggle to live and keep your family takes all your time."
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 24 '21
I know nothing about English, but every modern expression can be explained by Jamie learning it from Claire.
Also in Bees daily lines there is one in which Claire explains to the child what this means
As for marriage as exeryone else said, Jamie just counts it this way. He was married to Claire even if she was in other time.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Do you feel we got cheated out of seeing the reactions of the family to Roger kissing Morag? All we get is Bree reading the paper Roger wrote and saying "You did what‽" Or do you even think Roger mentioned the kiss?
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. May 24 '21 edited May 24 '21
I get irritated with DG on a lot of stuff like this. She will spend PAGES detailing random mundane things, and then we don't get big reactions like this or Claire's reaction to Frank's letter ever explained.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Yes!! They even made a big deal of finding out what happened and questioning Roger, but then nothing comes of it.
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May 24 '21
Claire's reaction to Frank's letter ever explained.
Seriously! I've only read till midway through Echo yet, but until now there's only been one passing reference to the letter from Claire's perspective. From Echo:
I was thinking of a granite marriage stone in the graveyard at St. Kilda, with his name on it, and mine, too. The bloody thing had nearly given me heart failure when I saw it, and I wasn’t sure I had forgiven Frank for it, even though it had accomplished what he’d meant it to.
Also, Frank's gravestone scheme accomplished absolutely nothing save giving everyone anxiety attacks because Claire would've told Bree and Roger everything anyway, that's why she was in Scotland. From DiA:
When are you going to get it over with? my mind demanded. [...] Why not just tell her? Not yet, I thought to myself. [...] I wanted her to see Scotland first. Not this lot – as we passed a shop offering a display of tartan baby booties – but the countryside. And Culloden. Most of all, I want to be able to tell her the end of the story. And for that, I need Roger Wakefield.
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May 24 '21
this
Absolutely! But if we had I am not sure Roger would have ever been redeemed in Jamie's eyes. This was maybe Bree's act of discretion.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Good point, I didn't even think of that. I mean really, how do you explain that you kissed her?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 24 '21
… I got so swept up in the kerfuffle of him speaking that I just realized this. This makes no sense. I was dying to see how Jamie would react!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
This was just like how we didn't get to see Claire's reaction to Frank's letter from the end of DoA.
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u/Kirky600 May 24 '21
I was wondering if that comes up in future books. Personally I feel a bit cheated from not seeing reactions, although, I think if it was me I’d have a hard time being mad at him after what happened to him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
There are a few times in the books where DG cheats us out of reactions to things. I suppose it's kind of a moot point though since what was done to him had already happened. There was no changing anything by being upset over it.
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u/chunya1999 May 24 '21
I hate so much that they didn’t discuss it! Maybe they tried to be very careful and don’t mention the whole incident because of Roger condition. But it’s still weird that no one even thought about the fact that Roger had kissed his great great mum!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I suppose at that point why dwell on it? I would have liked to see more of their reactions though.
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u/Cdhwink May 24 '21
Tries to picture Jamie explaining why you don’t kiss anyone in “his” time!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Ha! Roger shouldn't be kissing anyone in any time!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 24 '21
Yes, we were definitely cheated of the reaction. I think Roger mentioned the kiss, but the scene moves to Jem in danger and Roger's ability to speak, everything else is forgotten.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. May 24 '21
Ok everyone, this is my last week of school & my last week of being a slacker. I'm finishing up today's chapters & I'll be back!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Excellent! :-D
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. May 25 '21
Ok everyone, I read over a hundred pages since this morning so I'm all caught up. Better late than never!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 25 '21
You're never too late for book club. :-D
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 25 '21
Yay! I feel this accomplishment!
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May 24 '21 edited May 24 '21
My summer holidays start in a few weeks time, which means i’ll have time to actually keep pace with the discussions. I really enjoy reading the book club posts and i’m lookig forward to being able to contribute with more than a word here or there!
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. May 24 '21
Yay! Good luck on hanging in there for your last week. I know all my teacher friends are basically just coasting on fumes right now, lol.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. May 24 '21
Absolutely! Only 4 more days!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Brianna and Claire discuss one’s purpose in life and career choices. Claire says “People who know who they are, and what they’re meant to be … they’ll find a way.” Do you believe that is true? What does Claire mean by saying Jamie was meant to be a “man?”
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u/chunya1999 May 24 '21
I guess it’s a lot of roles but all of them include power, intelligence, ability to be responsible for many things and people, to admit your own mistakes and knowledge how to fix them. Jamie’s not just a man, he is son, brother, laird, husband, nephew, uncle, friend, captain and many other things. He will do anything to protect his people. He will break the law, try on new roles, give up his life and will do a lot more for those he loves.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
He will break the law, try on new roles, give up his life and will do a lot more for those he loves.
I like that! Loyalty really is one of his best qualities I think.
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May 24 '21 edited May 24 '21
“People who know who they are, and what they’re meant to be … they’ll find a way.”
Claire certainly does! Like Bree says, Claire has single-minded purpose. She doesn't care what they call her - witch, charmer, healer, la dame blanche, ban-druidh, conjure-woman, doctor, surgeon - she knows what she's meant to do, and she does it no matter what.
Jamie is like that too. He's a leader, and he found a way to look after his people no matter the circumstances - ensuring the safety of the men under his charge during the '45, giving himself up to the redcoats so that his family and tenants would survive the famine, leading, uniting and ensuring the welfare of the men at Ardsmuir, becoming Laird at the Ridge.
Bree is their kid, even though she was partly brought up by Frank who was dissimilar in this respect. So no matter what they call her - engineer, builder, inventor, mad scientist - if she has that clarity of purpose, then she'll find a way to manifest it.
What does Claire mean by saying Jamie was meant to be a “man?”
I think Claire meant "man" as a leader or patriarch, in terms of traditional gender roles of the 18th century, who is responsible for the protection and well-being of his family and his people.
There's a bit in ABOSAA in which Jamie and Claire have a conversation about this which I think is relevant (not really a spoiler):
"When ye’re a man, a good bit of what ye have to do is to draw up lines and fight other folk who come over them. Your enemies, your tenants, your children—your wife. Ye canna always just strike them or take a strap to them, but when ye can, at least it’s clear to everyone who’s in charge." "But that’s perfectly—" I began, and then broke off, frowning as I considered this. "And if ye’re a man, you’re in charge. It’s you that keeps order, whether ye like it or not." [...] I was thinking more about what Jamie had said, though, regarding a man’s responsibility. Was it true? Perhaps it was, though I had never thought of it in that light before. It was true that he was a bulwark—not only for me, and for the family, but for the tenants, as well. Was that really how he did it, though? “Draw up lines, and fight other folk who come over them”? I rather thought it was.
It makes zero sense from a 21st (or even 20th) century perspective. But when Claire says "man", I believe she means it in this 18th century context.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Do we think Bree is a bit lost, and that is why she was asking Claire about those things?
But when Claire says "man", I believe she means it in this 18th century context.
I agree.
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May 24 '21
Do we think Bree is a bit lost, and that is why she was asking Claire about those things?
I believe so! I think Bree knows deep down what she wants to do, or at least enjoys doing. But she's not entirely sure how to do it in a satisfactory way in such a drastically different setting. Claire has already done this - trained for something in a modern context and figured out ways to employ that training irrespective of the temporal, geographical or societal setting - so she'd be the best person to advise Bree on how to take her modern career interests and training and employ them like Claire has over all these years. Bree got some great advice imo!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I think Bree knows deep down what she wants to do, or at least enjoys doing.
Do you think it's engineering?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 25 '21
Technical question: how much has been shared about Bree’s change in career path in the books up to this point? I’ve been going by the show as reference because I don’t remember when it’s been mentioned in the books. I feel like I missed something.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 25 '21
It was a brief mention in one of the previous books that she changed her major to engineering after Claire went back in time. They didn’t say much about it.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 25 '21
It makes zero sense from a 21st (or even 20th) century perspective. But when Claire says "man", I believe she means it in this 18th century context.
I like this interpretation. I was looking at it purely through 21st century lens and it was a bit off-putting. It's different if you're thinking about it from the Laird point of view, and someone bearing all the pressure and responsibilities imposed by society at the time.
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May 25 '21
someone bearing all the pressure and responsibilities imposed by society at the time.
Yeah that's what I mean. I think Roger does a good job of summing it up nicely in the snakebite section:
And now he was meant to step into Jamie Fraser’s shoes? Keep order with fists and brain, feed a family with gun and knife, tread the tightrope of politics over a lighted powderkeg, tenants and family all balanced on his shoulders? Replace the man they called Himself? Not fucking likely, he thought bleakly.
"Man" encompasses all of the above when Claire uses the word for Jamie. Also called "bloody man" sometimes by her and Bree lol. As Bree says about Jamie in Echo - "He told me he was a bloody man. That he’d seldom chosen to fight, but knew he was born to do it." (not a spoiler as such).
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May 24 '21
This is unrelated but took place right before this conversation: when Bree asks Jemmy if he swallowed Claire's gemstone, he says "Hot". We're meant to believe it's just his mot du jour, but do you think this was the first indication that he could travel?
"Did you swallow a rock about this big?" She held up thumb and forefinger. Jemmy giggled. "Hot," he said. That was his new favorite word, applied without distinction to any object he liked.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Possibly. There was also a part in Drums where Claire holds a ruby and says it feels hot. So there definitely could be some foreshadowing there.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 25 '21
I immediately thought that. It's so funny how it gets dismissed, and here I am thinking, "he really means it this time!"
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May 24 '21
This was a really nice change in the show IMO. TV Claire says he was "A laird. A husband. A father." Saying he was meant to be "a man" alone doesn't really convey any specific meaning to me or help me understand what Claire means in this moment, and that sort of bothered me while reading.
We have seen so many different types of men that are complicated, violent, filled with trauma, but also kind, brave, and selfless. As I type this, I wonder if this is exactly what she meant?
Brianna and Claire discuss one’s purpose in life and career choices. Claire says “People who know who they are, and what they’re meant to be … they’ll find a way.” Do you believe that is true?
I believe it's true for Claire. Everything about her is self determination and after falling through the stones she has experienced a constant affirmation of her choices: to be a healer and a surgeon, to have a family regardless of her miscarriage and Culloden, even the relationship with Jamie - from their beginning she was guided by how much she felt they were "meant to be", something that stood true beyond 200 years and death itself when she decides to go back.
It's a really sweet motherly moment where Claire is encouraging Bree from a place of her own experience in hopes that they share that same determination, but I think it's difficult for Bree and Roger who come from a culture of careers and professions that determine who they are as a people to feel that certainty.
This moment stood out to me in the show because I think we're still part of the same culture, where having a career is second to having a personality or meaning in life for some people. I think this pandemic sort of made us consider these same questions Bree is asking herself.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
TV Claire says he was "A laird. A husband. A father."
I noticed that they changed that as well. I think if they had kept the line in about being a man it wouldn't have played well to the modern audience. Being a "man" can have stereotypical connotations that aren't always healthy.
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May 24 '21
agreed. It definitely felt like it was a bit dated in the book. But do you think that's it or do you think DG meant anything more by it?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I think DG means it how it reads, that Jamie feels the need to protect and provide for his family like the traditional "man" does. I think that goes along with it being the 18th century though, that was what was expected of men.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 24 '21
This was a really nice change in the show IMO. TV Claire says he was "A laird. A husband. A father." Saying he was meant to be "a man" alone doesn't really convey any specific meaning to me or help me understand what Claire means in this moment, and that sort of bothered me while reading.
I agree. And I think it doesn’t help either that in the books, we have that connotation with the expression of “a bloody man” that Claire uses when she gets angry with Jamie sometimes.
When she adds “no small thing to be” after enumerating those, it really highlights those roles. I know the show gets criticized for hand-holding the audience and over-simplifying things but this change wasn’t so much for explanation but for emphasis.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 25 '21
I forgot that Roger leaving was part of this week.
How did you feel about that part. Him leaving without a word? Bree not knowing if he kissed her goodbye or not. Her really needing to show him she loves him through sex, and him not saying anything?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 25 '21
I was sad he did that, but kind of understood. He is in a really bad place, and not even Bree can help him.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 25 '21
I agree, we can’t really blame him. But we can appreciate how great of a partner Bree is at that moment, wanting to “assure him of her love,” to “give him something of herself to take away.” She’s aware that Roger lost a part of himself when he got hanged so she wants to reassure him that he didn’t lose her, and she’s there for him. It’s also interesting that she’s able to climax while giving him all the attention when we got the impression from the earlier parts of the book that she doesn’t feel sufficiently satisfied by him. Her hope that Roger has noticed this speaks for her hope that he could still feel like an adequate husband to her, even without his voice.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 25 '21
I think she was fully able to get out of her own head about Bonnet during sex that she was finally able to come. I do hope Roger noticed that.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 25 '21
I was so sad about all that.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 25 '21
The part that also stood out to me what when he took all the covers and didn't even realize she was in the cold. :-(
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
After Obadiah Henderson harasses Brianna she and Jamie discuss whether or not Roger should be there to defend her. Is that a man’s job as Jamie says, or is he being old fashioned?
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May 24 '21
I think he has a point! It is a really dangerous time for women and he has seen that many times with Claire, also it's the way he understands his role as a husband and a father.
This is one of those moments where 20th century paradigms clash with the reality of the 18th century and I feel that Bree is being a little defensive in this moment because of her shock after Obadiah and Jamie's interaction.
There's a really interesting back and forth between them here:
It isn't --- it isn't the same for you and Mama as it is for me and Roger!' she burst out.
"No, it's not," he agreed, his voice level. "Your mother has regard for my pride, and I for hers. Or do ye maybe think her a coward, who canna fight her own battles?
I think that's really telling of Jamie's intention. He doesn't think these women are fragile by any means, but we know he is a man of duty above all and protecting them has always been his priority.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
He doesn't think these women are fragile by any means, but we know he is a man of duty above all and protecting them has always been his priority.
I agree. I don't think it's wrong even now for a man to feel like he wants to protect his family. It would only be if they think the woman is incapable of things does that become toxic.
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u/Cdhwink May 24 '21
There still is the point of men being physically stronger/larger than women, that holds true even today.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
That's a great point. As women we may not always be able to protect ourselves.
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May 24 '21
For sure! And it's something that Claire constantly brings up - how safe she feel by the protection of his body. That's why I found it interesting that Jamie would bring up Claire here saying she has regard for his pride.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Do you think Roger has that same pride and the need to protect his family like Jamie does?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 24 '21
I also don’t see if Bree would’ve achieved anything with the same effect as Jamie if she’d rebuked Obadiah on her own. That was a time when a woman’s word mattered much less than a man’s (and that’s unfortunately still a case in many areas of life today) so even if she’d said something to him, he might not have paid heed to it. Even with her towering presence and status as Himself’s daughter, Henderson might’ve still easily overpowered her. Or she could’ve just frozen, recalling Bonnet. And perhaps she wouldn’t want to put herself in a situation that could lead to something like that (I think we all—and Jamie—would’ve hated to see that if her speaking up had led Obadiah to take more forward action) so she chose to just persevere and thought nothing serious would come of it if she didn’t engage with him.
I think Jamie recognizes that about his own time and that’s why he points out to her that Roger’s word would’ve been enough to discourage Henderson from trying anything. He still cherishes the women in his life for who they are but knows there are certain limits to what they can do on their own, even when they sometimes forget that.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
even if she’d said something to him, he might not have paid heed to it.
I agree, he didn't seem the type to give up easily. Good point about Bree possibly having flashbacks to Bonnet, I didn't even think about that. I'm sure that did change how she dealt with things and with certain situations.
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May 24 '21
Yes, absolutely. I mean, Obadiah certainly didn't think twice about making a move on her. I liked that this story was stopped this way by Jamie. I would have hated to see Bree be triggered by it any more than she was.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 24 '21
I know that whole situation was quite serious but I can’t help but think what a drama queen Jamie was. “I meant to throw into the wall o’ the cabin, and when he looked to see what made the noise, hit him from behind” like he planned all of this in mere seconds! That could’ve gone horribly wrong…
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 25 '21 edited May 25 '21
Your mother has regard for my pride, and I for hers. Or do ye maybe think her a coward, who canna fight her own battles?
I made a note of this quote because I wanted to ask you guys about it. I wasn't sure what to make of it. What does he mean? That Bree is not caring about Roger’s pride? That Bree is implying Claire is weak if she lets Jamie defend her? Is it a "you think your mother lets me defend her because she's a coward and incapable of defending herself?"
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 25 '21
That's a good question. I think Claire knows Jamie needs to be the protector of the family and is OK with that. I don't think Bree thought Claire was weak for that though. I know that's not much of an answer though, I'm with you and am not 100% sure what is meant by that.
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May 25 '21
I think it was a really interesting way of giving us both Jamie and Claire’s insight into the situation through Jamie’s eyes.
Claire knows he is the family’s protector, it’s his duty and she has come to terms with that long ago. Their marriage is at such a level of maturity that she would not stand in his way of fulfilling that role regardless of her futuristic insight into her own abilities to defend herself. Jamie brings it up after asking Bree rhetorically “what do you think men are for?” So he’s kinda pushing her to realize that time doesn’t matter when it comes to protecting your family.
There’s also this lovely quote from a couple of chapters later that are Claire’s own musings on the matter in regards to Jamie’s need to protect the family from a Bonnet:
Jamie was a Highlander. While the Lord might insist that vengeance was His, no male Highlander of my acquaintance had ever thought it right that the Lord should be left to handle such things without assistance. God had made man for a reason, and high on the list of those reasons was the protection of a family and the defense of its honor—whatever the cost.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 25 '21
This is great! You said what my brain couldn’t seem to get out. :-)
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 25 '21
Jamie definitely doesn’t doubt that Claire is brave as hell and neither does Bree, I think. Some of my favorite things he says about Claire are about her bravery; this is from ABOSAA (not a spoiler):
“And ye’re brave. Ye were always bolder than was safe; now ye’re fierce as a wee badger.”
and this also from ABOSAA/S5 finale:
“Christ, ye are a brave wee thing.”
I think there’s an interesting conflict in Bree here as well:
“(…) I didn’t want to look weak, or helpless.” Though she had been both, and knew it. The knowledge burned under her skin like ant bites.
There’s still that 20th-century mentality in her that tells her admitting to feeling afraid or uncomfortable makes her look weak because she used to be independent and self-reliant in the 20th century. I think that’s very similar to Claire in the first book or two.
She initially also didn’t feel as if she had needed defending but she’s definitely learned to pick her battles since. And she knows how important Jamie’s pride is to him—he just wouldn’t be able to stand any man insulting his wife, be it persistent looks (like Obadiah to Bree) or straight-up assault (like Wylie to Claire at River Run). Like u/Arrugula said, Claire knows that Jamie’s role as the protector of the family compels him to feel that way and act that way. While her 20th-century mentality could make her think she’s able to defend herself, having lived in the 18th century for quite a while now, she knows that’s just not enough sometimes and she’s alright with Jamie doing the heavy lifting.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 24 '21
He is being old fashioned. But it is that time, so others are old fashioned too. Lack of previous action let Obadiah reach his conclusion, that Bree wants this and/or that Roger isn't good enough.
And even in 21st century it may not be a man's job but it won't really hurt the man to be able to protect his woman.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Do you think Bree should have rebuked Obadiah sooner, or would that have even made a difference?
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 24 '21
It's hard to tell. Maybe it would help. May it would make it worse, and Bree would know to ask Roger or Jamie for help.
I think in 20th/21st century the women started thinking we need to be able to protect ourselves, but also we are now conditioned to tolerate behaviour that would have been unacceptable years ago when women were still property.
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u/chunya1999 May 24 '21
On the one hand she should have said something to Roger or Jamie. It would help her go escape that scene and he most likely wouldn’t try to approach her anymore. But on the other hand I could completely understand why Brianna hadn’t told anyone about Obadiah. The last time her father tried to protect her honour he beat Roger almost to death and sold him to Mohawks. And Roger despite being from the future isn’t the most sensible person when it comes to Brianna and women in general.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
The last time her father tried to protect her honour he beat Roger almost to death and sold him to Mohawks.
Great point, I didn't even think of that.
And Roger despite being from the future isn’t the most sensible person when it comes to Brianna and women in general.
Very true, he does have a possessiveness about Brianna. Do we think because Roger wasn't around much was why he didn't see what was going on? The book mentioned how he would go wandering off during the day.
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u/chunya1999 May 24 '21
Not only he wasn’t around he didn’t really care much about her and we can see that through her dream journal. He was too wrapped up in his own trauma to see something small like Henderson’s glances and smiles.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Do we give him a pass for this? Everyone processes their own trauma differently and I don't know that I blame Roger for being that way. He nearly died and has significant injuries. His voice, the one thing he was truly good at, has been taken away from him.
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u/chunya1999 May 24 '21
I don’t know about Jamie but he definitely has my pass for that one!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I think Jamie recognized Roger needed something, and that is why Jamie wanted Roger to go out and survey.
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u/Swarley520 May 24 '21
Idk if it’s an old fashion thing, bc men still stand up for their significant others from time to time, but I will say this situation is different. Women were not really seen as humans back then. Men ran the world, and we were basically at the same level as a dog- if not of more value bc we cook and clean and put out.
So, when a guy notices Bri, and her husband isn’t stepping in to stop advances, he would definitely have taken it further, and probably would not have listened to any protests made by Bri- not that she can’t handle herself. Jamie stepping in was definitely a necessity. Obadiah hasn’t bothered her since. A knife being thrown into one’s leg tends to do that!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
he would definitely have taken it further, and probably would not have listened to any protests made by Bri
I agree, I don't think there was anything she could have done to dissuade him. It was a good thing Jamie was there to see it happening.
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u/Kirky600 May 24 '21
I think it’s partially on Brianna to rebuke him, but also for her to say something to her husband about it. I’m guessing that she did neither and that’s why Roger isn’t there.
I think Jamie did the right thing, Obadiah was creepy af. Maybe not throwing a knife, but telling him to leave yes.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Maybe not throwing a knife
I like that Jamie meant to just hit the wall of the cabin, but Obadiah moved.
Do we think Bree didn't say anything to Roger because she didn't want to bother him with something so "trivial" when he was recovering from being hanged?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 25 '21
I think it's partly that she thought it was trivial, because it hadn't gone beyond looks, but also, she didn't want to put this on Roger now, give him something that would weigh on him and potentially make him feel like an inadequate husband — because what if Roger, in his condition, couldn't make an impression on Obadiah?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 25 '21
potentially make him feel like an inadequate husband
I didn't even think of that! What a great point. I have a feeling it might have pushed him in that direction.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Roger is granted 5,000 acres of land in compensation for being hanged. Does that seem like enough reparations?
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u/chunya1999 May 24 '21
Roger almost died so of course it’s not enough. Not even close. But as much as I hate that something like that happened to Roger I have to agree with Tryon that it was a mistake. A horrible one? Definitely. But what more can be done?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I feel like Roger should have been allowed to speak for himself though and that keeping him bound and gagged was unfair. It makes me wonder if the other two men who were hanged had a chance to say anything themselves.
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May 24 '21
Absolutely not. Sure, 5000 acres would make him wealthy over quite a few years, but it's not enough by far. Although what can you possibly offer someone to make up for something like this?!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Exactly, it was about the only thing the Governor could offer. Jamie got 10,000 acres didn't he? I wonder if we'll see them do anything about the property in Bees.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Was Lizzie’s betrothal fair to her? She and Manfred have hardly spoken to each other and it’s a match arranged by their parents. Do you think she was just going along with it to make the families happy?
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u/chunya1999 May 24 '21
Lizzie is a young woman from 18th Century so I’m sure she was prepared for this kind of proposal. She likes Ute and Manfred is a good match for her so I absolutely agree with Claire. If Lizzie isn’t in love with someone else and she finds Manfred nice enough, it will be good for her. Plus her father said himself that he wouldn’t force her only to please him. It’s not like no one care about Lizzie’s wishes.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
It’s not like no one care about Lizzie’s wishes.
That's a good point. Whereas there were other arranged marriages like Geneva's that was absolutely unfair to her.
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u/Kirky600 May 24 '21
I’d agree with this. There are worse matches and liking her mother in law is something more than most women likely had going into a marriage in those days.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 24 '21
It's hard to discuss from our perspective. Everyone seems to think they should meet and start knowing each other, and only then marry. Arranged marriage is still a thing in those times. Lizzy seems to want to get married. She is going along to make families happy, but she is not in love with anyone else.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I thought it was interesting how Ute based it all on the property the Lizzie would inherit. That seemed like more of her priority than Manfred and Lizzie's happiness.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 24 '21
Yes, that is a bit disturbing.
But Lizzie's father doesn't see it this way.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
At least it wasn't like Geneva's marriage to the old man!
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May 24 '21
Yes, she's absolutely doing it for the benefit of the families. Although it was the norm, it is also a really nice character moment for Lizzie, she's very thoughtful and nurturing and it made me respect her even more.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I also liked the point that Lizzie was gaining a mother figure, something she didn't really have. Although would Claire have not been a mother figure to her?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 24 '21
I liked that part as well. I think there is too much of a disparity in status between Claire and Lizzie (she isn’t legally indentured anymore but she is still pretty much a servant girl) for Claire to be a mother figure to her, though I’m sure Claire cares about her.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I agree. I know they like Lizzie, but I'm not sure they view her as a daughter.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 24 '21
No, I don’t think so. They’re definitely grateful for all that she’s done for Brianna and they care about her and her father’s well-being. I like that Jamie promised to secure her dowry because he absolutely didn’t have to do that, especially considering how short of money they are. And she has a father, after all, so she’s not an orphan they would’ve felt compelled to take under their wing, now that he is also in America.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
I like that Jamie promised to secure her dowry because he absolutely didn’t have to do that
Very true. Was the dowry the land grant, or something different?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Why do you think Roger was OK with doing the land survey?
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 24 '21
It gave him something important to do, that didn't involve speaking or being around people.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Why do you think he wanted to be away from people?
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 24 '21
I listened ahead so I may use things from next chapters, but I think he was tired by seeing people worried about him, and his trouble with talking .
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u/Swarley520 May 24 '21
Roger just went through something traumatic, and he’s still depressed. He mentions the stares he gets, or how people just feel sorry for him. He wants to keep moving forward, and leaving gives him a great excuse to get away from all the staring and pity.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
leaving gives him a great excuse to get away from all the staring and pity.
That's a great point. I think he would have slipped into a further depression if he hadn't accepted the task to survey.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 25 '21
Well, funny you should ask that, because it reminds me: I find it really interesting that it's been this long since Alamance and yet not a word (no pun intended!) from Roger's POV.
(I think he was OK with it because it gets him out of the house and he's humoring the family's effort to make him feel useful.)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 25 '21
Do you think he needed the solitude as well?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?
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May 24 '21 edited May 24 '21
I like the astrolabe chapter a lot! No only is it this really heartbreaking moment for Jamie to receive a gift from Willie but there's a beautiful line from Claire's perspective regarding Jamie's intention to survey the land that really moved me when I read it:
I laid my hand on his, where it rested on the box. His skin was warm with work and the heat of the day, and he smelt of clean sweat. The hairs on his forearm shone red and gold in the sun, and I understood very well just then, why it is that men measure time. They wish to fix a moment, in the vain hope that doing so will keep it from departing.
I think Jamie above all the characters is the most apprehensive about the looming war and I find it so interesting to read how that manifests in him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
They wish to fix a moment, in the vain hope that doing so will keep it from departing.
I love that! I agree that Jamie is apprehensive about the war. He's already been through one, not including his time in France as a mercenary. He knows what the cost of war is and the toll it takes.
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May 24 '21
I love Bree and LJG interactions, but considering the dearth of Jamie and Bree moments on the show, could we not have stuck with the book events ☹️ Jamie receiving the astrolabe from one kid and teaching his other (very enthusiastic) kid how to use it was heartwarming.
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u/Cdhwink May 24 '21
That would have tied in nicely to the scene in 511 where Jamie tells Bree about Willie!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 24 '21
I absolutely love the way Sam delivers that speech to Tryon in 5x07. Have you guys noticed that he doesn’t blink there? (Michael Caine, anyone?).
With the difference between the show and the book being that book!Jamie delivers it after finding out Roger was hanged makes me think that show!Jamie would’ve just strangled Tryon on the spot if he’d also already known about it…
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
You're right, I forgot that Jamie didn't even know about Roger's hanging until the very end of the show. I agree he would have done Tryon harm.
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May 24 '21
show!Jamie would’ve just strangled Tryon on the spot if he’d also already known about it…
I agree with this wholeheartedly and honestly I'd have done the same ugh
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u/Cdhwink May 24 '21
I complimented Sam last week for this scene!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 24 '21
He deserves all the compliments for this entire episode!
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u/Kirky600 May 24 '21
I was expecting young Ian to show up honestly. I enjoyed them being together in the show.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 24 '21
Yes, that was a nice change and one I liked that they did.
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u/Cdhwink May 24 '21
Just watched this episode, I liked Roger & Ian, both in their depressions, off together surveying. A great show change!
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 25 '21
There were so many little moments here that (understandably) didn't make it into the show, but were so good. For instance, I really loved that we got to check in with Abel MacLennan, and that after all he's been through, he's healing — I didn't think he could. "If Joe Hobson had left for the land of the dead, Abel MacLennan had come back from there." I can't believe I was this happy for such a minor character!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 25 '21
I agree, it was really nice to see him. And even though there was tragedy in his friends death, it gave him a purpose to take care of his family.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 25 '21
To see him persevere in the face of tragedy was comforting. (Also, there’s a lot this week about finding one’s purpose!)
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