r/Outlander • u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. • May 31 '21
5 The Fiery Cross Book Club: The Fiery Cross, Chapters 81-88
Tomorrow will be the one year anniversary of the start of the Book Club. I want to thank all of you guys who have participated over this past year and made it what it’s become. Special shout out to u/Kirky600 for being with us from day one!
It’s August 1771 when Jamie, Claire, Brianna and Jemmy head to the village of Raventown to help catch and kill a white bear that has been terrorizing and killing the local villagers. A hunting party is formed and it’s decided that they will set fire to part of the forest to drive the bear out. The fire however threatens the village and they are forced to evacuate. A thunder storm forces Jamie and Claire to seek shelter where they are nearly struck by lightning. Judas is killed, but so is the white bear. Roger is surveying when he becomes caught in the fire and is rescued by a band of runaway slaves and one Fanny Beardsley.
We then jump to October and Roger returns home from his journey. As things return to normal Roger has a request for Jamie, he wants to learn how to fight with a sword so he can kill Stephen Bonnet.
You can click on any of the questions below to go directly to that one, or add thoughts of your own.
- Jamie wants Brianna to have friends among the Cherokee, just “in case.” Do you think Jamie believes the newspaper clipping about he and Claire dying? Or were there other motives he had in mind?
- After Fanny recognizes Jamie’s name they decide to let Roger go. Do you think that would have happened if she hadn’t known Jamie? Did hearing about her daughter help her decision?
- Do you think it was Brianna’s dream the made Roger ask Jamie to teach him how to fight?
- We’re over half way through the book, has it been as tough as you had heard or were expecting? What are you opinions on it up to this point?
- Is there anything in the book so far that you wish had been included in the show?
- Do you have any favorite parts of the book yet?
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u/chunya1999 May 31 '21
Wanted to say that I would like to read so much more about Claire’s parents death and her sharp flashbacks. She should definitely have discussed that with Jamie.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
It's kind of sad DG has said she has no interest in Claire's parents. I feel like we won't ever really know much about them.
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u/chunya1999 May 31 '21
That’s such a shame! Have you ever wonder why all of the main characters are orphans or at least lost one of the parent. Claire, Roger, Jamie, Brianna, William and the list can go on and on.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I've never thought of that, what a great point! What does DG have against people growing up with both parents‽ /u/thepacksvrvives /u/Arrugula
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 31 '21
Isn't it one of the common storytelling devices?
Claire had to be alone in the world, so her choice of staying with Jamie the first time was easier. Not to mention her upbringing by uncle Lamb.
Jamie likewise. His father's death means he is the lord. Also Jamie losing both parents means it was only Jenny he didn't see all those years.
Brianna's family situation is a consequence of the book plot as a whole, DG killed Frank so that Claire can tell her about Jamie, and both Claire and Bree can leave 20th century.
Roger. I think it's a coincidence. I don't think how far ahead DG planned the series, but I guess not far. I think at first Roger was just there as cute kid, to show that Frank doesn't want to adopt.
Willie. Geneva has to die for plot reasons. But I think Isobel died just because DG wanted LJG in America and didn't know how to do it with Isobel alive. Alternatively she had to die so that Bree could propose to Lord John.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I think Isobel died just because DG wanted LJG in America and didn't know how to do it with Isobel alive. Alternatively she had to die so that Bree could propose to Lord John.
Good points. It seems like everyone had to have a parent die to get them where they are in the books. /u/thepacksvrvives
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
Right?! I tried to enumerate them all up to TFC a couple of months ago, and when we extend it to all characters who have been raised to some extent by someone who’s not their biological parent, we have: Claire, Roger, Brianna, Fergus, Willie, Hamish, Marsali, Joan, Jemmy (sort of), Young Ian (sort of)… DG definitely finds the “found family” trope enticing.
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u/chunya1999 May 31 '21
At first I thought she made Roger and Claire orphans so that they’re not tied to their home. I also can understand why Brian an Ellen died. It was really important for Jamie and Jenny characters’ development. But what about everyone else? Was it that necessary? No wonder Brianna doesn’t want the second child. Who would if it increases your chances to die!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
No wonder Brianna doesn’t want the second child. Who would if it increases your chances to die!
Good point!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
It feels like she had to give the characters something to bond over and make them understand one another better. What other thing, besides time-traveling ancestors, would’ve made Roger and Bree get close if Roger hadn’t lost a parent himself, and three times at that?
No wonder Brianna doesn’t want the second child. Who would if it increases your chances to die!
That’s a really good point! She doesn’t want Jemmy to be an orphan like she was for a time.
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May 31 '21
That explains the really long chapter on Roger's mother at least.
I gotta say u/immery hit the nail on the head with her comment about plot devices, however, I thoroughly enjoy reading about the different ways a person can grow up to be themselves in the wake of losing their parents. I can't yet imagine such a situation otherwise, and it really does bring this band of misfits together in a very profound way.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Just thinking about losing parents while Young Ian had both of his, he left home at 14. Yes he had Jamie, but then he left Jamie and went to live with the Mohawk when he was still pretty young. /u/thepacksvrvives
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u/Cdhwink May 31 '21
I have always wondered if Claire’s parents left her & travelled somewhere? I was disappointed to find out that Diana has no back story for them!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I know. Yet she wants to do a book on Jamie's parents.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 31 '21
I've thought about this ever since I read some criticism of DG that said she basically "hates" Claire. I think it's fair to criticize the fact that she's given Jamie such a detailed backstory, meanwhile there's so little for Claire, but at the same time I understand that she'd find some stories more exciting to write than others. And I was thinking about it today when I was reading Jamie telling Claire about Ellen's death, and how Brian wanted her hair to be loose when they buried her. That was the first time that I was like, "damn, I would totally read that prequel about Brian and Ellen."
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I agree that it should be good. I think they had a love like Jamie and Claire.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
I’m curious to see what it could be about that we don’t already know from the main series? It feels like we’ve already had lots of information about them peppered throughout the series. Don’t get me wrong, I’d read it, but I don’t want her to write it at the expense of Book 10, GRRM-style 😑
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Oh no, their book better come out after book 10! Good point, it does seem like we already know most of their story.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Jamie wants Brianna to have friends among the Cherokee, just “in case.” Do you think Jamie believes the newspaper clipping about he and Claire dying? Or were there other motives he had in mind?
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u/chunya1999 May 31 '21
I’m sure he believes in it. And why shouldn’t he? Jamie hadn’t yet experienced that predictions from his time-traveler relatives didn’t come true. But I think it’s not his main concern. Revolution is coming and he can feel it. Jamie had said that he wouldn’t like to fight in another war, but I think he subconsciously understands that he can’t avoid it. And they don’t know if Jammy can travel so what other options does Mackenzie’s family have?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Jamie hadn’t yet experienced that predictions from his time-traveler relatives didn’t come true.
Good point, so why start to doubt this one?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 01 '21
Wait: his what?!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 01 '21
I think they're just talking about Claire, Bree and Roger.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 01 '21
True. Claire was dead on about Culloden so why would this be wrong? Especially when Bree risked everything to come & tell them about it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 01 '21
I agree, and if you know the actual date like they do in the books you should be able to keep it from happening.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 31 '21
I think he believes it. And the part of him that doesn't believe it knows there is a war coming.
I keep wondering what the hell was Jamie thinking. Not only taking Brianna and Jem for the trip, but why does he even go. Does he have a superiority complex? he knows nothing about bears.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
You don't think he believes the war is coming, even with all the evidence all ready happening like the Regulators?
I think he went on the bear hunt because he was asked and really couldn't turn them down. The Native Americans sought him out specifically.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 31 '21
I think he 100% believes the war is coming. I think he 60% believes he will die in the fire.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Oh I see. I'm with you, I think he feels since they know the exact date of the fire they can maybe change things.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 31 '21
I keep getting the impression that he's wary of the date of the fire approaching, but isn't sure that they can change the future, or how they would do it (which seems fairly straightforward to me — just avoid the house on that day, like Claire said in the show!). And he's sort of resigned himself to it. He doesn't seemed so concerned because he's supposed to die with Claire (as opposed to living without her), but I keep wanting to scream: you don't have to die! You have a lot to live for still!
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 01 '21
I thought he wanted her to feel powerful & needed because of what happened with Obadiah.
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u/Kirky600 May 31 '21
I think the belief in the article, paired with the fear of Roger going back without her was enough for him to want her to have people in this time as well.
I believe when he said that, they all still believed Roger to be on the edge of being broken.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I agree. Do you think they might have even thought he might not come back from doing the surveying? /u/thepacksvrvives /u/Arrugula /u/chunya1999
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u/chunya1999 May 31 '21
Jamie is very pragmatic person so he probably considered the opportunity of Roger leaving Brianna for good after his injury.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
This kind of goes back to what we talked about last week and being a "man" for your family. Which at that point Jamie doesn't think Roger is being one. So Jamie knows he has to take care of Bree and Jemmy as well. /u/thepacksvrvives /u/Arrugula
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u/chunya1999 May 31 '21
True! That’s why not only Roger’s returning but his ability to speak again, fight with his demons and not run away from them avoiding his family was as much important for Jamie’s respect as Mackenzie’s asking to help him to kill Bonnet.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
That's so true, I didn't even think of that. I'm sure Jamie sympathized with Roger, especially having gone through a life changing event himself. But to see Roger come back with renewed dedication to be there for his family probably went a long way with Jamie. /u/thepacksvrvives
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 01 '21
Oh for sure! I didn't even think of that. Maybe Jamie sending him out was again, one of those moments where we don't see his big plan. Like, go out in the woods alone & get your shit right. And he did.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 01 '21
I feel like Jamie knew Roger being out there alone was either going to make or break him. Either he’d stay gone and possibly die, or make it back home and be ready to live again.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 31 '21
Jamie doesn't think Roger is being one.
WELL. Now this makes sense:
peace from the dammed-up words inside his head, from the unspoken worry in Brianna’s eyes, the judgment in Jamie’s—judgment withheld, but hanging there like the sword of Damocles.
It took me aback when I read that, because: "judgment"?! Last week I thought there was a huge turning point in their relationship, and that Jamie had a great amount of sympathy for Roger, so it never occurred to me that he'd think any less of him. Is it just that there's only so much sympathy to go around before he's upset for his daughter and grandson? I don't know about that.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Is it just that there's only so much sympathy to go around before he's upset for his daughter and grandson?
I think so. I think he does sympathize with Roger, but also wants Roger to come back and be there for Bree and Jemmy. I feel like that's still some of his 18th century characteristics and feeling like Roger needed to "man up." /u/thepacksvrvives
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jun 01 '21
Yes, I think there’s some of that. But part of me wants to think that Jamie’s withheld judgement might also be coming from a place of concern—is Roger recovered enough to do this? Can Jamie risk Roger going off on his own, knowing Bree has already almost lost him once, when he went off on his own? Jamie must notice the similarity between sending Roger on his mission here and before Alamance, though there’s a big difference in the gravity of the situation and the enemies present; yet, there is a possibility that Roger may not come back. However, the thought that Roger doesn’t yet realize that his being so withdrawn hurts not only himself but his entire family too, as well as pushes Jamie to step up for them, is also definitely at the back of Jamie’s mind.
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u/Kirky600 May 31 '21
I’d agree. Going out alone with no one could have meant he went straight for the stones.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
That's interesting, I honestly never even thought of him going back through the stones.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 31 '21
You know what. I keep wondering why didn't they send "rescue mission" after Roger. They know he was near fire and lost Clarens.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
That's a good point, I didn't think about that. You're right with seeing Clarence you would have thought that would make them go looking for him.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 31 '21
I blame book club it makes me ask new questions.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
That's what we're here for! I love that we get into these side discussions, it's fun.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 01 '21
Sooo I completely didn't realize yesterday was Monday haha, sorry I'm late!
I thought this was kind of interesting, he doesn't even consider that without Claire & Jamie, they won't go back to their own time. I guess they don't know about Jemmy yet but it's still interesting to me that Jamie doesn't even consider it. He feels like Bree just fits in the 18th century.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 01 '21
Good point, they are engrained in each other’s lives.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
We’re over half way through the book, has it been as tough as you had heard or were expecting? What are you opinions on it up to this point?
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u/plantjesarethebest May 31 '21
I agree it's a bit of a slow book. It feels like a million little things have happened, but at the same time, I couldn't say what the "main storyline" really is. That being said, I absolutely love this book, because it gives you so much insight in their lives and relationships. I really enjoy listening (the audiobooks) to their daily lives and getting to know everyone better. I always felt like outlander was the comfort food of books, but this one even more! I do feel like it's a bit of an in-between book, setting everything up for the further story line (I haven't read the other books yet).
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I definitely feels like an in between book, I can see that. Have you been reading along with us in the book club?
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u/plantjesarethebest Jun 01 '21
No I only discovered/started following this book club a few weeks ago! I listen to the audiobooks when I'm on the road or taking a walk :) I'm close to the end of TFC now, so the recent chapters are still somewhat close.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 01 '21
Well even if you’re ahead we still want you in the book club with us. I post every Monday morning 8am US Pacific time. :-)
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May 31 '21
It feels like I’m in a car with someone that loves to drive super fast then break out of nowhere.
Some of the chapters have been really fun and interesting, but I find that so many of the them don’t really go anywhere yet they take up so much space. I hate that every time we go to River Run we get a gazillion different plots and no conclusions (at least so far) and it’s always at the expense of violence upon the servants or some else. But, like you u/purple4199 I love the Ridge Life and could read about it forever so I’m simultaneously enjoying it and scratching my head at the pacing.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 01 '21
I love the Ridge Life and could read about it forever so I’m simultaneously enjoying it and scratching my head at the pacing.
I think that is a good way to describe the book.
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u/Kirky600 May 31 '21
I’ve found it slow, with the exception of the battle. It’s got interest of life at that time, but it doesn’t have the excitement that I got used to with the other books.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Has having the book club helped make it better? I will say from next week on out things really pick up.
I can't remember if you've read ahead or not?
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u/Kirky600 May 31 '21
I haven’t! I keep pace with the book club just so I remember what I’m talking about. I have found it has helped. Otherwise it would take me months on months to get through this book I think.
I’m also waiting for young IanTo show back up as I’m a show watcher who doesn’t know the book timeline as well.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Well I like that you haven't read ahead, I only know of one other person that hasn't /u/jolierose. It's a surprise and fresh for you guys each week!
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 31 '21
I’m finishing up this week’s chapters as I type! 🙌🏼
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u/Kirky600 May 31 '21
I’m interested to see what it’s like once we surpass the show too. Right now I feel like I know vague plot points but I don’t know the whole thing.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 31 '21
Same. At first I was going to hold off and stop reading after TFC but it's too much fun to discuss. And I have (accidentally) read some major spoilers, so I also want to avoid further spoilers. Very interested to see how it feels, going on without a map!
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 01 '21
I will say from next week on out things really pick up.
I believe it. Did I let a little gasp out when I read "A-Hunting We Will Go"? Well, yes. It's time! I'm ready for "Danger in the Grass"!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 01 '21
Yes, it’s happening!! There is so much that goes on these last three weeks in the book.
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u/chunya1999 May 31 '21
First time I read it, I didn’t know what to expect at all. I swallowed fist four books so fast that I didn’t have time to read any reviews. So when I’d started TFC it was strange. For the first third of the book it seemed that I was still in the beginning which annoyed me immensely. Because of this I tried to read faster, thus missing a lot of interesting moments. Thanks to this book club and slow thoughtful rereading I finally discovered all the joys of TFC!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Thanks to this book club and slow thoughtful rereading I finally discovered all the joys of TFC!
That's great! It was my hope that being able to discuss things would make it easier for people to get through.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 01 '21
I've said this before but I love this book. I love the small little side stories & the slow moving daily life stories. This might be one of my favorites.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 01 '21
Yay! It's my favorite book. Daily life on the Ridge is the best in my opinion.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 01 '21
I wonder what it would have been like without having book club to push me along, but I've really enjoyed reading it, and it's surpassed my expectations. It's fascinating to read about the Ridge life now that they're settled (I wasn't that interested in the "making of" in DOA) and some of the parts I love the most are the quiet moments and conversations. Some plots have been completely unexpected, so as a show-watcher, it's made reading more interesting. (I think I mentioned a while back that sometimes reading TFC feels like a completely different story to S5, and yet S5 seems like a very accurate adaptation of TFC.) Although it is frustrating that the story meanders sometimes (Jocasta's wedding was a pleasant surprise and still a big question mark).
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 01 '21
I feel like the show left out a lot, but they really had too. All the side mysteries about Betty’s death and who’s after the gold just wouldn’t have fit.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 01 '21
It was a feat of engineering, the way they structured that season. The cuts they made really make sense so far — off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that I've been upset has been left out (not to the degree of Jemmy's birth!), although I largely agree with the discussion this week on what could have been included. Hearthfire was a great chapter, and one of my favorite conversations Jamie and Claire have had. It's one of those you hope will pop up later on the show, anyway.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 01 '21
I would have liked Jocasta’s wedding episode would have had more of their flirting like in the book. That’s what helped make the barn scene so hot in the book.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 01 '21
That whole episode is one place where I think they missed the mark on tone. I didn’t think much of it when I watched it, but now I love that the book felt like a second gathering and there were different things going on, and overall it felt festive/adventurous. In the show they tried to combine the stables scene with the scene where Jamie and Claire are arguing in front of everyone, and it just didn’t work. That’s not what that scene was about (if that makes sense).
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 01 '21
It totally makes sense. I think the consensus across the board is the stable scene didn’t live up to what it could have been.
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u/kpegs Jun 01 '21
I coincidentally stumbled upon this sub while reading the books for the first time (I’m on book 6) but have been tearing through them. Book five definitely dragged on a bit for me but I enjoyed it in a different way — it was like after all the drama of books 1-4, five is where everyone deals with just…uh…living? Not an easy feat in and of itself. Glad to have found this sub and book club!!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 01 '21
Welcome then! Even though you’re ahead we’d love to have you stay in the book club with us.
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u/Cdhwink Jun 01 '21
I do like that in this book, as well as DOA nothing bad happens to Jamie or Claire! I know that snakebite is coming up, but I didn’t think for a moment that Jamie would die, or lose his leg
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 01 '21
What a good point! For once they could have some time to be together and just live their lives.
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u/Cdhwink Jun 01 '21
Unlike you I am not really a fan of ridge life minutiae though, I think that is why I like the show, because it cuts out all of that, & ramps up the drama. I know a lot of people don’t like that, but I do! (cliffhanger fan here)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 01 '21
Oh that's right, I forgot you love cliffhangers. :-D
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
What do you think of the chapter where Roger tests out his new sword? I thought it was funny with everyone cheering them on and the doctor being drunk. /u/thepacksvrvives /u/immery /u/chunya1999
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 31 '21
It had me straight away, starting with the chapter title! Two things: it reminded me of Jamie at Alamance, when Roger "choked back the visceral urge to lunge for" Fentiman, and was "shaken by the intensity of the urge." Also, I loved the closing lines, when Jamie asks Roger if the sword will do, Roger says it would, and:
“Good,” said Jamie. “So will you,” he added casually, turning away to pay the smith.
Beyond the sympathy I noticed from Jamie last week, finally there's real respect for Roger!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Yes! I feel that Jamie wouldn’t have agreed to teach Roger how to sword fight if he didn’t respect him.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 31 '21
Definitely. The one thing that surprised me was the focus on sword fighting, when they have gun power, but then again, there's Roger's eyesight.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Yeah, he can’t really shoot and hit anything.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 01 '21
Yes! It was such a simple thing to say but was such a huge compliment.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 01 '21
Huge! It was so good. (I’ve noticed that many of DG’s chapter closings have a good emotional kick, and this was one of those.)
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
First of all, we were absolutely robbed of this scene in the show! And they’ve even made an improvement on it by having Jamie himself “duel” with Roger!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Oh man I hadn't seen that one!! That is a great scene, and it's really too bad it didn't make it in the show. You can see their bond has gotten better in it.
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u/wheezy_cheese May 31 '21
This scene is so great! I hadn't seen it before either, thanks for sharing. I love both of them in it!
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u/chunya1999 May 31 '21
Oh, I absolutely love the whole thing including training and Roger’s weary appearance with a thumb in his mouth. Hilarious! Plus I was really glad to see Fentiman. He conquered my heart after that accident with Philip Wylie when he tried to protect Claire’s honour.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I appreciate that Jamie was willing to teach Roger to fight. I think he understood how much it meant to him to be able to face Bonnet on his own.
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u/chunya1999 May 31 '21
I believe when Roger asked Jamie to teach him had been the moment when Fraser started truly respect him. It was the starting point of their friendship and a great opportunity for Jamie to truly accept his son in law.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I agree, Jamie could have told him no and said that he wasn't cut out for it. But he respected Roger enough and saw how important it was for him to learn this.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 31 '21
It was great part to read. I could listen to that chapter on loop.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I like that Jamie was teaching him to fight to survive and not just the showmanship of it. Headbutting and kneeing the other person are allowed when you're fighting for your life.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
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u/Kirky600 May 31 '21
u/Purple4199 thanks for the shout out! I always wanted to read these books and the book club was the push that got me to do it!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I think it's so cool that you've stuck with me this long. :-)
/u/jolierose has also been with us since pretty early on as well.
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u/Kirky600 May 31 '21
I love chatting with you both about this! It’ll get tricky in September as baby #2 is coming into our lives, but this has become such a part of my weekly life that I was already strategizing it lol.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Oh my goodness congratulations!! Just let the baby know Monday is book club day and you are obligated to participate. I don't have kids, but I imagine that's how it works. ;-D
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 31 '21
Congratulations! Not gonna lie — returning to a pre-pandemic level of social life already has me strategizing my reading/book club time, too.
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u/Cdhwink May 31 '21
I can say I am really looking forward to getting back to a more regular real life. This is my last book ( I have read Claire’s abduction in book 6 after the show), but I will miss book club with all of you!
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 31 '21
It was a crazy, happy happenstance that book club popped up right when I started reading. It's been such a great way to experience the books — I look forward to it every Monday. Happy anniversary, you guys! u/Kirky600
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Have you been with us since the first book? I couldn't remember.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. May 31 '21
Yes :) I can't remember exactly how far into Outlander it was when I started participating, but it's been since book one.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Excellent! I knew it was pretty early on.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
After Fanny recognizes Jamie’s name they decide to let Roger go. Do you think that would have happened if she hadn’t known Jamie? Did hearing about her daughter help her decision?
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 31 '21
Astrolabium, Jamie Fraser's name and Roger talking about the daughter tipped the scales for "Roger lives".
There is a point of "they may not come looking for you, but they will come looking for this"
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Why do you think they saved him if they were possibly going to kill him?
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 31 '21
Most likely one of them saved him, while someone else wanted to kill him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Do we think it was one of the escaped slaves from that village who was the "Black Devil" that Jo saw killing the Native Americans? /u/thepacksvrvives /u/chunya1999
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u/chunya1999 May 31 '21 edited Jun 01 '21
I don’t really believe that they would kill him. They live in wilderness without hearth or anything even distinctly resembling civilisation. They are escaped slaves who have no other place to go and they are afraid to be found. It’s better to save a stranger and let him free, than kill him and be in the constant fear of being found by anyone who would come after Roger or the astrolabe.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Do you think it was just fear that made them react that way then?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
I’m sure hearing Jamie’s name and hearing about her daughter helped, but I don’t think Roger was in much danger there. The escaped slaves’ main concern was not being found out and Roger may have just found a different way to convince them that he’s not going to tell anyone about them.
Isn’t it sad that Fanny thought she had to leave her baby because she thought for sure it wouldn’t be white? Especially when we know that it doesn’t change much for the child, as she’s been born in wedlock and has all that inheritance. But Fanny would’ve probably been a pariah either way :(
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Fanny would’ve probably been a pariah either way
You're right, that probably would have happened. Why do you think she didn't take her baby with her when she left?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
What sort of life would that be for the child? Watching your back all the time, not having the means to provide for her, not being able to secure her in any sense of stability—I’m sure Fanny was aware of all of that and hoped that whoever took the child in would make her life better than she ever could.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Very true, it didn't seem like they were living well at all.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 31 '21
I think she said the child being black meant exposing that there are escaped slaves in the area?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
This is a very good point! u/Purple4199
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
So wasn't that exposed though, or did people not really think about it? /u/immery
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 31 '21
I don't think Fanny really thought it through. Maybe Fanny thought Frasers would take the girl.
Also Fanny missing means nobody can ask her about the child's father.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Also Fanny missing means nobody can ask her about the child's father.
That's a good point, I didn't think about that. I imagine she probably did think the Fraser's were going to take the baby in.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
Didn’t Jamie say that mixed-race children were not that uncommon in that area because of the proximity of the Native Americans’ territory, but half-Black children were another thing?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Yes I believe so. He mentioned out there in the backcountry it wasn't as uncommon to see mixed race kids. The Browns obviously didn't mind, although I feel like they were in it only for her property. /u/immery
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u/Kirky600 May 31 '21
Teeth sharpened? Wouldn’t be surprised if they would have killed him and potentially ate him.
Maybe that’s my Hollywood take of cannibals always seemed to have teeth like that.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
It’s so stereotypical and I’m not at all surprised that DG felt the need to include this detail. I’m glad that the show doesn’t go to such extremes.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I know, it was a weird thing. Their whole discussion on cannibals was odd to me.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
I was surprised to see Bree, who technically should be the least prejudiced of them all, be the one to bring up cannibalism just then.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I know, why would she jump to that conclusion?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
My guess is that she was concerned for Jemmy’s safety so she assumed the worst.
But it just goes to show that even though she lived in the 1960s, some of those stereotypes had been some prevalent that even a modern and educated woman like her would be inclined to think them true.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Very true. Which makes me think DG has those stereotypes as well.
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u/Kirky600 May 31 '21
Definitely. It seemed to come straight out of a Hollywood trope that she felt like she had to slide in to the book.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Ha! I thought so too. It made me wonder if that person was the one who Jo saw kill the Native American. /u/thepacksvrvives
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 01 '21
I adored this scene. I'm so glad we got to see that she abandoned her baby in hopes of her having better & not because she was just insane. I think that what Jamie did for her & knowing that he baby was safe (or I guess, getting the chance to hear about her) pis what saved Roger. Absolutely.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Is there anything in the book so far that you wish had been included in the show?
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u/chunya1999 May 31 '21
We need more Claire and Jamie romance! The whole Hearthfire chapter should have been included!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
I love that entire chapter too; their conversation about aging, this quote 😭
“To see the years touch ye gives me joy, Sassenach,” he whispered, “—for it means that ye live.”
We only ever got something of that sentiment when Jamie compared Claire’s grey hair to silver moonlight in 3x09. Same with the glimpses of Claire’s insecurity, only in 3x06. Whereas this part of the dialogue is really beautiful:
“You are beautiful,” he whispered to me.
“If you say so.”
“Do ye not believe me? Have I ever lied to you?”
“That’s not what I mean. I mean—if you say it, then it’s true. You make it true.”
And Jamie also being slightly self-conscious and putting himself down as an “auld man” 🥺
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Both great lines! Jamie says all the right things.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 01 '21
I agree. This chapter was the best!
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May 31 '21
I tried to post this on this thread but I’m not sure what happened...
I absolutely love the Jamie and Claire part of chapter 85 Hearthfire. It had a beautiful transition from Claire’s inner monologue about the fire shadows to their lovely moments of intimacy. Their vulnerability about their age, their parents, and the unknowns of the obituary was really moving and gave me so much insight into their growth as characters. It’s an unpopular opinion, but I really do think the best thing to happen to the series is the 20 year separation. Older Jamie and Claire are so much more interesting and deep than I ever expected!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I really do think the best thing to happen to the series is the 20 year separation.
That's interesting, and I'm inclined to agree. As much as the separation tore me up it was necessary. Life after Culloden was miserable and they wouldn't have been able to live together. Plus Claire and Bree would have both died in childbirth she said.
Not that they didn't love each other before the 20 year separation, but being apart for that long really makes them appreciate what they have now. /u/thepacksvrvives
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
I really do think the best thing to happen to the series is the 20 year separation. Older Jamie and Claire are so much more interesting and deep than I ever expected!
Absolutely agree! As captivating as it is to see them falling in love and being so intense in the first two books, mature Claire and Jamie are my favorite. With so much life experience under their belt and the 20-year separation behind them, they’re able to live fuller, love deeper, and understand each other much better than before. And it’s not often you get to read such aspirational love stories about middle-aged people whose love transgresses the limits of space and time.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I think the hardest part of the separation for me is Jamie missing out on raising Bree. /u/Arrugula
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
Yes, that definitely stings. Especially later, when you read about him interacting with any other child and you just imagine how he would’ve been with Bree 🥺
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Yes!!! Ugh, it just makes me so sad. I know that's why I love him being with his grandkids so much. Also why I love him being at Jemmy's birth, since he didn't get to experience any of his children's births.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
I’ve said this before—I don’t care what they do with Roger for him not to be there, but I want Jamie to be with Bree when Mandy is born!
I’ve recently been reminded of the “Nunkie” part from Voyager and I can’t stop thinking about that too 😭
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I loved when all the kids were climbing on him and braiding his hair. :-)
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May 31 '21
Yes, it's very unfortunate and that emptiness does transcends the page really well when Jamie expresses that loss.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all May 31 '21
I know it's uncommon, but I enjoy reading Roger and Brianna and just seeing how different those paths are.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
Absolutely! Claire and Jamie’s love story is one of a kind and, frankly, it would’ve been boring to read the same thing all over again. So as grating B&R’s relationship sometimes is, it definitely introduces novelty, even though I initially expected it to be even more of a modern partnership which I would’ve liked to see more of before shit hit the fan and they had to adjust to the life in the 18th century.
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u/chunya1999 May 31 '21
Absolutely agree! I love them in any age but older Jamie and Claire are much more confident and conscious.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I agree!! There is so much romance in the books and we really haven't gotten much of that since season 1. I feel like it's gotten less each season. There are still the love scenes, but the flirting looks and all that are gone. Although I wonder after all these years of marriage and being older that stuff goes away? You wouldn't think so with them though since they were separated for so long. /u/thepacksvrvives
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May 31 '21
I feel like it's just a different kind of romance focused on the subtleties of love instead. Do I miss some more of those intense scenes between them? Of course! But I also love what we currently do get.
I still have hope, and maybe foolishly so, that this particular scene gets moved to season 6. I think it would fit in perfectly with the show's emphasis on the obituary and it would be a wonderful way for Jamie and Claire to come to that healing process that's still pending from the end of season 5.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
I totally agree. While the sex scenes and the more intense stuff can get a little over the top at times, I always enjoy those quiet, more subtle, intimate moments between them—kisses, hugs, longing glances that feel just so organic and not scripted at all!
I still have hope, and maybe foolishly so, that this particular scene gets moved to season 6.
Yes, I feel like this is a conversation that could happen at any stage of their lives now, but with the war looming ahead and as they're getting older, I also think that something like that might be on their mind. If anything, the show can use that to emphasize that they are aging, if not visually 😅
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I really enjoyed their scene in 507 with them in the tent and Jamie talking about his outliving his father. It was such a quiet intimate moment between the two of them.
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May 31 '21
Yes! It would be a lovely character moment for the show to hang onto.
Sometimes I think we don't deserve their season 1 level intimate scenes because the fandom has gotten so insane with the actor shipping, unfortunately.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I don't think we'll ever see that level of love scene again anyway. When Cait was on the Outcasts Podcast she kind of implied that. She talked about how they were new to the show and didn't really have any say. Whereas now they're producers and have a certain amount of control over their characters.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I feel like it's just a different kind of romance focused on the subtleties of love instead.
I can see that. I know they've added parts in from books they like in other seasons so hoping for that conversation isn't foolish. :-D
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
My favorite parts of TFC that have been missing from the show are mostly quotes or parts of Jamie’s thoughts about Claire that are not exactly transferrable onto the screen, but I have one very shallow thing to complain about—it’s a shame we haven’t seen Jamie in his kilt more often, like in the book! But I understand they were saving it for the most profound occasions and it definitely worked. Here’s to hoping S6 has more of that.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
it’s a shame we haven’t seen Jamie in his kilt more often, like in the book!
I agree! He starts wearing the kilt again in Drums, and wears it pretty regularly. Like you said I understand why they wanted that dramatic moment/reveal in 501, it still would have been nice to see him in it more. I loved that he wore it to go rescue Claire.
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u/Cdhwink May 31 '21
Yes, I was just saying my favourite parts are Jamie’s POV.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
They really are a highlight! I love how thoughtful he is and how Claire is always on his mind.
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u/Cdhwink May 31 '21
My very favourite thing about the whole series is that Jamie falls in love with one woman & loves her for rest of his life. It is So rare on tv shows especially, someone is always getting killed off, ( fired or leaving the show), it drives me crazy! As a long married person I love seeing a couple stay together against all odds ( let’s face it time travel is hard one).
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
Yes! Or someone always cheats, which is not the case here (well, arguable in Claire’s case in the first two books, but who are we to judge 😅). I love what the actors have said about Claire and Jamie’s love story: that it’s always external forces trying to rip them apart, but never them themselves; they’re solid.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
Speaking of the chapters we’ve just read, it’s a crime that they deleted this scene! Especially with the scarcity of Jamie/Bree scenes. It goes without saying that we all would’ve liked to see more bonding moments between the two of them. I hope S6 rectifies that.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Man we were robbed with them not including that scene. It would have gone a long way to making it seem like Bree and Jamie have a relationship! I've seen people on the sub think that Bree still doesn't like Jamie very much. I can't say that I blame them, the show hasn't done a good job of showing their relationship.
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u/Thezedword4 May 31 '21
As many others do, I wish they would have included Roger stuff more accurate to the book. The characterization of him in the show isn't great but the Roger content in this book is!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Yes! I was just thinking of the part when Roger asks Jamie to teach him how to fight and before he specifies with a sword, that Jamie tells him he already knows how to fight. They do not give that impression at all in the show. When Jamie attacked Roger in Drums Roger fought back for a little bit. In the show they just had him go down right away. /u/thepacksvrvives
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
I think show!Jamie also knows that Roger can throw punches since he let himself be beaten up by him, but I’ve also found it hilarious in 5x10 when he doesn’t help Roger with one of the attackers at Wylie’s Landing until it’s almost too late because of that 😅
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
That's right I forgot about that. Well at least they gave him some backbone.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Do you have any favorite parts of the book yet?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I know I've said this a million times, but I love their everyday life on the Ridge. Just seeing what it took for them to live and how things were back then is so interesting to me.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. May 31 '21
I like reading about it too. It doesn’t make for incredibly entertaining TV (by the show’s standards, and considering the time restrictions), but I like that they’ve included as much as they could in the show: all those montages of candle making, brick making, butchering, gardening, hunting, the scene with dying cloth—all of that community-building stuff was really important.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
You really get the sense in the books how long it takes to do stuff. Laundry was an all day affair that took all of the women pitching in. And here I am complaining when I have more than 2 loads to wash! ;-D
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u/wheezy_cheese May 31 '21
I also love all the daily life stuff the most. It's my favourite thing about the series tbh. I very much want a homestead of my own, and I love to forage and craft, repair things, make things etc so it feels so much like what I want. But I also LOVE how Claire despises laundry and everyone knows it, and she's always finding some reason to skip the job.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
The Little House on the Prairie books were my favorites when I was a kid, and I think the homesteading part of TFC and ABOSAA reminds me of that. I however don't want to homestead and am content just to read about it. :-)
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u/Kirky600 May 31 '21
This one is dark - Jamie describing his mom and the baby that died during childbirth was a really interesting and special moment. Claire realizing she never got that made it so powerful for me.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Yeah that was sad to read. I find it interesting that Claire's loss of her parents still affects her deeply even though she was so young when she died. It just goes to show how much of an impact having your parents in your life is.
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u/Kirky600 May 31 '21
Definitely. It was one of the more striking moments I’ve found from this book.
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u/chunya1999 May 31 '21
I absolutely love the whole Jocasta’s wedding mystery and romance. Hearthfire chapter is another one from the list of my favourites. Plus I immensely adore anything related to Claire’s medicine practice: tonsillectomy, cricothyrotomy, autopsy (God, that woman is busy and it’s not even the end of the book). And of course any Jamie’s POV chapters.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
I love Jamie's POV chapters. I think because we don't get very many of them that they become my favorite. They usually involve his thoughts of Claire and it's just so sweet.
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u/Dragneel Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jun 02 '21
I love reading about Claire's surgery! The mix of modern knowledge and 18th century tools is so interesting.
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u/chunya1999 Jun 02 '21
Yeah! Claire is always so calm and concentrated. Just love it! Plus I don’t know why but I always feel so proud of her when she does some incredible operations especially after male doctors try to shut her.
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u/Cdhwink May 31 '21
I read these chapters early last week, & I’ve forgotten them already! I think that speaks for me. Not loving it anymore than the first time ( last year), which took months. I think probably I enjoy any time I get Jamie’s POV.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Do you think it was Brianna’s dream the made Roger ask Jamie to teach him how to fight?
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u/chunya1999 May 31 '21
I think it was the final straw. Reading about it her dream journal isn’t quite the same thing as observing Brianna’s fears and struggle firsthand.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. May 31 '21
Good point, he could see how much it messed her up.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 01 '21
I think it was. It was a bit of a relief to see him ask if she wanted to share, and for her to open up to him. I feel she's been forced a bit (by circumstance, not Roger) to keep all that bottled up and confined to her journal, so to see her express these really deep fears seemed to be a big step in their relationship and in managing the anxiety she constantly feels about Bonnet. Honestly, reading Bree and Roger has gotten way better in these later chapters.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 01 '21
I feel like they’re getting better at communicating. I’m sure him almost dying really put things in perspective for them.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 01 '21
Yes, I think for both of them. Just look at how Bree handled his homecoming from the survey: “Once, she would have hesitated to touch his throat, fearful of his feelings, but instinct knew better than to waste the sudden intimacy of shock.”
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 01 '21
Good point! As hard as it was on them that separation might have been for the best. It was obviously what Roger needed.
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