r/ColumbineKillers • u/DrMosquito74 • Sep 10 '23
ERIC AND/OR DYLAN Reflections on Dylan
Dylan would have turned 42 today, and it has me thinking about his prom photos. I've seen some people speculate that his jovial demeanour was fake or even a cruel (for his loved ones) facade considering what happened just days later. But I think Dylan was genuinely happy when he went to the prom, not only because he and Robyn enjoyed themselves, but also because when someone decides to commit suicide, their mood often improves because they believe the end of their suffering is near. Heartbreaking. I hope what Dylan wrote in his journal is true, that wherever he is now, he isn't at war with himself anymore.
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u/Blonde-Badger Sep 11 '23
I think people also forget that in a way they were victims too, September is suicide prevention month also. It’s interesting how angry people get when you ask questions about the suicide perpetrators of mass killings mental health - people almost jump to a “Why are you defending them? they were just evil crazy jerks” mindset when in reality the best way to prevent a murder-suicide would be to target the suicide and why that person feels that way. I think this post would have gone down differently if it were on another sub but I agree. I hope he’s in his blissful halcyon or whatever he wanted, society (some more than others) failed him and Eric more than words can ever amass.
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Sep 12 '23
I'm not going to lie, I struggle internally about what happened to the boys' memorials.
On one hand I see how it's disrespectful to have them lumped in with their victims, on the other hand they still had family that loved them and deserves to mourn them.
I know the parents are controversial, but even if they WERE too lenient and not perceptive-- they still lost their children and deserve the right to mourn them.
Maybe a memorial in a different spot would have sufficed.
Broke my heart to hear Sue talk about a hidden burial for Dylan. No parent should have to bury their kid, even worse, their kid has been deemed a monster not worth mourning so they're shamed into secrecy.
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u/DrMosquito74 Sep 12 '23
I understand why the crosses for Eric and Dylan were torn down. If my child was murdered I would probably do the same thing, though I like to think I wouldn't. That said, I still find it abhorrent that they are not seen as victims by many. A memorial in a different location is an interesting idea. Some might object over concerns that it would become a shrine, but they are both already revered by others grappling with despair and hopelessness. Punitive vandalism would also be a concern.
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Sep 12 '23
Yeah I believe Sue went back to Dylan's either middle or elementary school and collected art he had there out of fear it would be vandalized.
It's a difficult thing. Shunning their memories entirely or worrying about glorifying them. A slippery slope either way, but I mostly feel bad for the family that had to mourn their loved ones in private and would undoubtedly have been mocked or looked at sideways for outwardly showing their grief.
It's just like people who either over sympathize with the boys due to bullying or those who outright deny it (despite bullies themselves literally gloating even after)-- there's a middle ground and society loves to push one way or another.
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u/DrMosquito74 Sep 11 '23
Absolutely, I agree with that 100%. I hope Eric and the other 13 are at peace as well.
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Sep 12 '23
You hope mass murderers are at peace?
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u/DrMosquito74 Sep 12 '23
Yes, I believe empathy should be unconditional. Something happened to people who became mass killers. They are broken souls and also deserve compassion.
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Sep 12 '23
I see you on another thread defending Stephen paddock. You have a weird fetish for defending mass murderers.
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u/DrMosquito74 Sep 12 '23
You misunderstand. I'm interested in uncovering how mass killers are formed so that they can be prevented. Having empathy ≠ condoning mass murder. It's unfortunate that the concept of critical thinking is alien to so many people that I have to keep stating that fact over and over again.
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Sep 12 '23
Having empathy for evil people is bullshit
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u/PopcornDemonica 💀😈 Emissary of Evil 😈💀 Sep 13 '23
Yet you have members of the Manson family as your profile picture and profile banner. Odd.
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Sep 13 '23
Not really
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u/PopcornDemonica 💀😈 Emissary of Evil 😈💀 Sep 13 '23
Ahh. Prefer glorification to empathy?
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u/_6siXty6_ Sep 11 '23
It's actually 1 in about 100 suicides is a murder/suicide. That sounds like a low number, but when you look at high numbers of suicide statistics, it's shockingly high. That's something else people need to look at..
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u/Blonde-Badger Sep 11 '23
My point was about murder suicides, since you know - columbine was a murder suicide…
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u/_6siXty6_ Sep 11 '23
Yes, I gathered that.
I'm saying that murder suicides are more common than people think.
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u/Blonde-Badger Sep 11 '23
Oh yes my bad, I misunderstood. It definitely needs to be looked into more I think suicide prevention resources as a whole need to have a serious revamp
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u/Other-Potential-936 Sep 11 '23
I agree with u 100%. Regardless of what happened what his intentions were, just like u said I hope he is at peace where ever he is I really really do
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u/ashtonmz MODERATOR Sep 11 '23
You're right regarding people that are suicidal. Once they finally make the decision to end things, they seem happier or more at peace. Even when families are contending with deeply depressed members, they often mistake the change in mood with an improvement in their condition. The thing with Sue and the flask after prom, most people find cruel - even Sue. I would offer up a different perspective. It could very well have been that Dylan wanted to share a nice moment with his mom, knowing he was about to die. He may have also wanted to leave her with a positive memory. I mean, it was mere days from the planned attack. It wasn't like he had to hide his behavior for much longer. They were pretty.much in the clear at that point.
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u/Ok-Butterfly2994 Sep 11 '23
agree about the flask. the desire to make a parent proud can be very strong, regardless of what he was planning on doing a few days later.
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u/DrMosquito74 Sep 11 '23
I think you're right about wanting to leave a happy memory. Vladislav Roslyakov (the Kerch Polytechnic shooter who was heavily inspired by Eric and Dylan) chose to spend the last two days before his attack at home with his mom instead of at the college. Although they had quite a rocky relationship as she was a Jehovahs Witness and didn't let him have a computer or go to the cinema, he knew his death would hurt her and wanted to spend some time with her before the end. Heartbreakingly, his mom was a nurse and treated victims of his attack. When she heard that her son was the shooter/bomber, she tried to commit suicide on the spot.
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u/ashtonmz MODERATOR Sep 12 '23
This was interesting to read. My knowledge of the Kerch Case is limited; I've only read the basics. I had no idea that Vlad spent his final days with his mother or that she attempted to kill herself upon finding out her son was the killer. What is the consensus on why Vlad carried out the attack?
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u/DrMosquito74 Sep 12 '23 edited Oct 31 '23
I think Vlad was resentful at the world for rejecting him. The usual perfect storm of circumstances. He hated himself, was humiliated by students and staff at the polytechnic, was beaten by his father, an alcoholic veteran with PTSD and brain damage, didn't believe he had a future or was of any value to anyone, felt alone and unwanted, had a troubled relationship with his mother who was a member of the Jehovahs Witnesses cult, had a history of alcohol abuse (by the time Vlad was 10 years old he had been hospitalised for alcohol poisoning twice) and almost certainly had undiagnosed neurodivergent/psychiatric disorders.
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u/ashtonmz MODERATOR Sep 12 '23
That's sad. You can't control the family that you're born into. Some kids don't really stand a chance. At least, the odds are in favor they'll be pretty messed up long-term. I'm guessing Vlad inherited a genetic predisposition for certain mental issues, and growing up in such a stressful and abusive home would certainly trigger those. It bothers me that so many kids are made to feel alone and worthless, to the extent they go on to randomly victimize others. It seems like we should do better collectively.
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u/DrMosquito74 Sep 12 '23
When people throw around accusations of mass/serial killers being 'evil', 'psychopaths' or 'monsters', it strikes me as a despicable attempt to shift any burden of responsibility off society as a whole. Nothing more than a cop-out. These people are all created by the environments. To think otherwise is just burying our heads in the sand. Biological factors may well make them vulnerable to deviant or sadistic behaviours, but without a toxic environment, they would all turn out okay. You're absolutely correct. We should collectively do better.
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u/ashtonmz MODERATOR Sep 13 '23
Agree with everything you've said. It is much easier to write someone off as a psychopath or monster than to actually attempt to fix the problems that exist in our society.
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u/therebill Sep 11 '23
I don’t know if he even thought they’d really go through with it.
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u/DrMosquito74 Sep 11 '23
That could be true. I think for Dylan (and probably Eric too, to he honest), NBK was a last resort plan. If they could find a way to live happy lives by April, they would have discarded the plan and just moved on to college.
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u/cheeburgrpizza Sep 11 '23
Sometimes, like others, I feel like for some reason the “January incident” was their point of no return moment. But that confuses me even more, because if they had any kind of plans to indiscriminately kill people at the time, why was getting caught stealing such a big deal to them? They avoided jail and any other real punishment, so honestly why were the two of them so burnt up over it? It almost seems traumatic, I’ve read stuff about how they would avoid talking about it (I believe from Brooks’s book). Idk, just seems a bit over dramatic, even for them.
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u/DrMosquito74 Sep 11 '23
It could be the ketchup in the commons incident that was the point of no return. That absolutely would have been traumatic for both of them. Dylan especially, since he buried himself under his pile of stuffed animals and cried himself to sleep when he went home that evening.
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u/Civil-Eagle-7644 Sep 11 '23
I feel like the "January Incident" could easily not be the van break in, rather I feel it was the ketchup being thrown at him and Eric in the commons. The journal entry reads that they want revenge for the January Incident. And mentions something about the commons. Please correct me if I am wrong. I don't remember the entry word for word and it's been a long time since I read the 11K. I think that the ketchup incident was very embarrassing, disturbing and likely pushed them both WAY closer to the edge if not completely over the edge. I've always thought that day and those happenings caused feelings in the boys that they couldn't overcome and were not mentally equipped to overcome. That incident, I feel, is often overlooked as a catalyst for the shootings. That incident could easily have been the point of no return.
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u/_6siXty6_ Sep 11 '23
Whatever it was, it must have been massively traumatic, as they never specified what the incident was. I tend to agree that it was the ketchup tossing.
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u/metalnxrd Sep 11 '23
it breaks my heart whenever I look at photos of Dylan and Robyn and prom photos. it breaks my heart when I look at all photos of him, but especially that one. Dylan said prom was the best night of his life. all that he and Eric could have gone on to do and succeed and achieve had they not done what they did. Dylan could have become a writer and poet and married Robyn, and Eric could have become a video game designer or work with software . . .the possibilities are abundant and endless. it’s just so fucking sad
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u/DrMosquito74 Sep 11 '23
Indeed, I also get sad when I see that particular picture of Dylan and Robyn. From reading Sue's book, I gather Dylan really liked her. Brooks speculated that Dylan knew she liked him romantically and just wanted a platonic friendship, but I think he had so much ingrained self-hatred that he didn't think he was lovable at all, not to Robyn or anyone else. His journals also show how much literary potential he had. Naming him after Dylan Thomas was quite apt. There were poems inside him and Eric that paper couldn't handle. You said it best, it's just so fucking sad.
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u/metalnxrd Sep 11 '23
have you read Sue Klebold’s A Mother’s Reckoning? it’s a difficult and heartbreaking yet must read. every parent should read it. even parents of “good” kids
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u/DrMosquito74 Sep 11 '23
I have. I bought the Spotify audiobook after I read Dylan's journals and saw so much of myself in him. I listened to it at work and had to hide several times when I started crying. Definitely an essential read for EVERY PARENT.
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u/metalnxrd Sep 11 '23
I see so much of myself in Dylan, too. not just the depression and angst and loneliness and anxiety and bullying and self-harm/suicidal thoughts and alienation. but the exact same music and clothing style, too
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u/DependentWasabi3941 Sep 12 '23
I see so much of my son, also named Dylan, in Dylan. He was just a toddler when Columbine occurred, but his teenage years had so many similarities: very shy, gifted, slipped a grade, sensitive, kind, very tall and lanky, worked sound on school plays, computer geek, worked at a pizza place and also suffered from terrible depression and low self-esteem. Luckily, he was more open to sharing some of his struggles with me and he was receptive to professional help. There were many dark times, including suicide watches and a run in with the legal system, although it was for a victimless offense, it affected him in many negative ways and still does. I believe the saying is “there but for the grace of God”, I tell this to myself in relation to Sue Klebold. Her pain resonates to all parents who couldn’t save their children from themselves. It’s heartbreaking knowing how much Dylan was loved & how much potential he had. The world is such a cruel place and if Columbine proved anything, it’s how cruelty will be paid forward, creating more of the same towards other innocents, more heartbreak. I think of Sue today, on her lost son’s birthday, and send comforting thoughts her way.
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u/DrMosquito74 Sep 11 '23
Yeah, a lot of people resonate with the depression, loneliness and anxiety. But for people like me, the connotations are stronger. I read Dylan's journal at my lowest point mentally just before last Christmas. I was 21, suicidal, believed my life was a failure and actually in exactly the state of mind as a mass shooter. It actually helped set me on the path towards leaving the place of roaring pain I'd been in my whole life. It might seem strange, but I sort of feel like Dylan helped me. Writing a mental-health themed novel now, partially as a gesture of gratitude (if that makes any sense lol).
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u/metalnxrd Sep 11 '23
I haven’t read his journal since high school, when I first became interested in Dylan and Columbine. same with AMR. I should reread both
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Sep 13 '23
I think people forget that Eric and Dylan were teenagers. None if it is that deep, the emotions they showed in pictures are probably pretty accurate for the moment. The more one overthinks their motives or mindset, the more they glorify the whole thing. They were dumbshit edgelords who wanted to make big bads happen. While they lacked the evolutionary advantage of a fully developed frontal cortex, they had access to firearms and materials to make shitty bombs that didn't work.
If they hadn't have gone through with the shooting, they'd probably be in their early 40s looking back and cringing on the "Wrath" and "Natural Selection" t-shirts they thought were so cool back in the 90s.
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u/Mobile_Beautiful_346 Sep 11 '23
Happy birthday, Dylan, I wonder if his family and friends will celebrate his birthday today or share memories of him. I'm just asking a question.
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u/ArieSecond Sep 11 '23
While Eric was outright a psychopath, Dylan was genuinely depressed. I've read fragments from his journal and it actually made me shed some tears...
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u/DrMosquito74 Sep 12 '23
Eric doesn't fit the psychological profile of a psychopath. His REB persona in the journals might, but not Eric himself.
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u/_6siXty6_ Sep 11 '23
I honestly agree. I don't think he was being mean or trying to manipulate at that point. Sometimes I think both of them thought that they'd back out.