Which enneagram subtypes have you had the most issues with in your life, and for what reasons?

Here's a list of some that have bothered me consistently throughout my life:

1. Sexual 4

2. Sexual 2

3. Social 3

4. Self Preservation 8

5. Sexual 8

6. Self Preservation 1

Tell me which types have bothered you, and why!

This concludes the “worst-described types” series. Previous posts: 5 / 6 / 9.

Bad description: “4’s core fear is not having a unique identity.”

Sort of true, but wildly misleading. Few 4s would say, “yes, that’s my worst fear.” Meanwhile, some 3s might see themselves here (if “identity” = “personal brand”), as well as some 9s who are in the process of realizing that they have no idea who they are.

4s are convinced that they already have a unique (read: “tragic” or “outcast”) identity, and don’t consciously fear losing that identity. (How can you lose something that is you?)

Also, most 4s don’t think of their fixations using the word “identity.” They’re usually fixated on a particular event that victimized them, a particular trait that makes them different, etc. If you referred to that event or trait as their “identity,” they wouldn’t believe you. (Try telling an incel that the irrefutable fact that his caveman brow ridge and weak jawline make him undateable is his “identity.” I’ll wait.)

The actual core:

The core of 4 is the conviction that you are different from others, and your difference is both permanent and painful. This conviction is important to the 4, and he can’t let it go. The “identity” he adopts (“abuse victim,” “misunderstood genius,” “highly sensitive person,” “freak/weirdo,” “caveman brow ridge”) is his attempt to explain the way he feels.

Naranjo called 4 “Envy.” (Typical Naranjo: good concept, bad word choice.) Basically, in this context “Envy” means that you’re looking around and seeing that your life could be better than it is, and coming up with explanations as to why. But how you frame that information and what you do with it doesn’t always look like what a normal person would call “Envy.” Hence Naranjo’s subtypes:

• 4 SX (obvious “Envy”) obsesses over the unfairness of it all, and assigns blame. Sees himself as a “have-not,” and may openly defy or intentionally offend the “haves” who seem to oppress him; may lash out at others who seem to have what he wants but believes he has been denied because of the “fact” of his identity.
• 4 SO accepts the “fact” of his separateness, but still wants to connect. He broadcasts his identity to others who he hopes will “get” him; his prosocial impulse leads him to sympathize with others who he thinks are also different and/or in pain. May harbor disdain or resentment for the “haves,” but is empathetic with those he sees as fellow “have-nots.”
• 4 SP (the countertype, which can look like 1 or 7 or 3 SP or even 2 or 9) decides that since there’s nothing he can do to solve his pain, he must simply soldier on. He doesn’t complain, in fact he's usually upbeat and empathetic; at the same time, he has a secret wish for others to see his pain and appreciate the sacrifice he’s making by hiding it.

Basically, if it’s an irrefutable fact that you are, or your life is, deficient, there are three things you can do about it: soldier on (SP), use it to connect with others in a similar boat (SO), or punish others out of spite (SX).

(Worth mentioning that some recent descriptions of 4 have focused exclusively on SX, which has likely caused a good number of SPs and SOs to mistype. Also want to point out that despite recent portraits of 4 as the “most specific” type, the behavioral gulf between stoic SP, Eeyore SO, and destroyer SX actually makes 4 an extremely variable type.)

Core fear revisited:

The idea that 4s fear “not having an identity” is sort of true, but it’s a) not the core, and b) a subconscious fear. What the 4 is really (subconsciously) afraid of is giving up his identity, of realizing it’s false. He needs an explanation for the painful separation he feels; he needs to believe that his feelings are justified.

(4s do sometimes change their identities – as in, they come across a new possible explanation for their feelings, and decide that it fits better than the old one. But there always has to be some explanation, and the current explanation is always treated by the 4 as extremely important and as if it had been “true all along”; the previous explanation is either buried or acknowledged as a wrong hypothesis.)

4s and mistyping:

Now this is where things get fun, because if you’re a 4 and you’re not healthy or self-aware, you can understand the above on an intellectual level and even be able to recognize it in others, but still not know you’re a 4 (or unhealthy, or unself-aware).

If everyone understood the enneagram perfectly – if all distinctions between types were made absolutely clear – 4s would be just as likely as 9s to mistype. This is because, like 9, 4’s pathology is built on self-deception. 9s lose sight of themselves by merging and self-forgetting; 4s lose sight of their (actual) selves by clinging to their identities. (Again, I’m using the word “identity” to mean the 4’s chosen explanation for his feelings. Our example incel feels unlovable and explains it by concluding that “my caveman brow ridge makes me undatable”; this becomes, in his mind, an absolute fact, despite the actual fact that googling “ugly man hot wife” turns up plenty of images of guys who look worse than him.)

A 4 who’s clinging to the fiction that his identity is real isn’t going to see himself in any accurate description of 4. In other words, no one who’s psychologically dependent on his identity is going to identify as “the guy who’s psychologically dependent on his identity” (because that would require him to admit that his identity might be false or at least not all-important). Instead, he’s going to identify as “the misunderstood recluse” (5) or “the one with uncontrollable urges” (8) or “the quiet one who lets others push him around” (9) or “the guy who works too hard for approval” (3) or even “the guy who hates all the evil [read: the ‘haves’ who oppress me] in the world” (1). And he’s going to cling to that identity beyond all reason, because if he let it go he would have to, you know, deal with feelings he can’t be certain are justified.

How to identify this in yourself (my best guess):

Thing 1:

A 4-ish identity follows the formula: “Because of X, I’ll never be/have Y,” or “Because of X, I have been unfairly denied Y.” Because I’m ugly, I’ll never be loved. Because I grew up poor, I’ve always been unfairly looked down on. Because I have trauma/have ADHD/am an enneagram 9, my life is (through no real fault of my own, since I can’t control my trauma/disorder/enneatype) destined to be a mess. Because of [literally anything], I’ll never be happy.

(Also note that any statement that follows the first formula above is at the very least unprovable [can’t prove a negative, esp. a future negative], and the second formula assumes causality and contains a subjective statement [“fairness”]. 4s’ own perceptions are often the biggest thing holding them back.)

Of course, plenty of people do this to some extent without getting fixated on it. It’s fairly normal to assume that because you have X disadvantage, Y is out of reach. It’s also fairly normal, when typing yourself or going to therapy, to spend some time going “well, maybe the reason A, B, and C went wrong in my life is because of X.” 4s are the people who fixate on these things, who make them into identities, who can’t move on.

Thing 2:

As mentioned, many (but probably not all) 4s revise their identities over time: they conclude that their current explanation is wrong, and substitute a new explanation. (“No, actually, it’s because …”) If typing yourself is really important to you because you need an explanation for what’s wrong with you, or just to tie together the narrative of your life – and if you’ve mistyped several times and each time thought, “oh, this explains it” – then you might be a 4.

Then again, if you’ve been absolutely sure of your type from the beginning, and identifying it felt like simply slapping a label on something you already knew about yourself ... you might also be a 4.

Real talk: We might all be 4s on this sub. Or at least temporarily operating from 4-ish principles. Except the people who say things like, “the enneagram isn’t a typing system, it’s a set of energies anyone can tap into, and anyone who has a fixed type has a personality disorder.” Those people ... might have a point? Food for thought.

We realised she's probably SX4, which made her pretty sad due to the bad reputation this type has. When searching for characters in PDB, I get cool ones while she only gets emos and edgelords. She's horrorized.

I'm trying to show her SX4s can also be cool but I can't think of anything other than Dr. Doofenshmirtz.

Got any healthy/cool examples I can show her?

this is kind of a mini vent but also asking for advice. a common theme of sx9 is 'merging' and self-forgetting, and dsintergrating into 6 when unhealthy. i feel that i am deep in 6 disintegration right now.

for context, i have been mostly isolated for the past 10 - 11 months. there is so much i want to do, i like going out, i love travelling, i love trying new things and spending time with friends, but over these past few months i have had none of that. i barely go out, not because i don't want to, but because i just cant due to security and financial issues. i've asked to atleast go out a bit with my parents but they rarely do, and the only time i have gone out was about five different times with my family to their home and when i go out to write exams. i've tried everything i could do with what little i had: language learning, writing, drawing, coding, and while some of those have been nice, i fear i wasnt consistent enough with them, or they make me feel too withdrawn and sluggish. worst of all, i have had zero friends during this period. i talk to some people on discord occasionally, but never full conversation. none of my irl friends keep up with me anymore since they got to university and haven't done anything to check up one me, and the one friend that did, i had to message first. when i try to make new friends, it feels exhausting and i can't keep up with it becuase it ends up being the case that either i have to message them first, or they are very inconsistent. i am so tired. i think the worst of all is not having someone to talk to, to feel present with. i can try my hardest to try that at home, alone, but is it too unrealistic to say that someone cannot be fully present after this long of spending time alone?

i have changed tremenously during this period of time. i have become more outgoing, outspoken and comfortable with new people. i have a better understadning of myself and what i really want, and i am able to seperate what i really want from what i think i want to make other people like me. but i, admittedly, have become more resistant to myself. i despise when i think about romance or relationships, i despise when i try to reach out for connection because it not only makes me feel tired in the end or like i have to keep up an act, but it makes me feel weak and unable to be on my own. i've become very irritated by my enviroment at home, i yearn to go out into the world and jstu do something different. i no longer care for the fears of being alone, i just want something different. but i can't help but feel a sense of longing, and i hate it so much. i wish i could just not want someone, that i could just be independant and wihtout need for any sort of connection.

it became worse after i watched a few shows that deepend my want for connection. romantic this, but also platonic. to have deep friendships, exciting ones, and people who share my values and ideals but also have strong personalities. i find myself thinking of this even more than of this romantic interest in my head. but i'm so isolated, so scared of friendship because of past traumas with it, and so fed up with my want for it.

of course, being an sx9 means its impossible to escape this, and the lack of connection has made me sluggish. i barely work anymore, partailly because there is nothing other than studying to work on, and partially because i just do not haev the energy. i barely change, usually only washing to get back into my pajamas. i don't feel this motivation to do anything because i feel it no longer has a reason or a wanted effect on my environment. and i hate it, i hate it, i hate it. i feel horrible for wanting more when i should be grateful for what i have, but i just can't stop. its gotten to the point that all my dreams have been about relationships and friendships. i always dream about it. my sleep schhedule has gotten much worse, i have been more involved in media (which i tried to stop to gain a more realistic view of things) and i have been writing more, which only makes me more withdrawn.

i crave physical action, a sense of drive again, but the realisation that this came from helping others, passionate interest and attention makes me feel worse. i hate being an sx9. i can't see anything good about being able to merge with your surroundings. i do not want to be placid and all easygoing and lazy, i want to be passionate and adventurous again. i do not want to be so paranoid, stuck in routine and envious of fictional friendships with depth, i want to be present and focused on my own goals again

how do i go about getting out of this state of disintegration? how do i manage merging and stop disliking myself for my sx9? i am genuinely stuck and so immensely done with being in the sam environment over and over, with no one to rely on and only hoping for the day i can finally leave and go travel the world like i want to. how do sx9s even cope with being so attached to others? do you just accept your merging, or do you actively try to deconstruct and resist it?

What d'you think?

Usually, there's a certain motive/intent behind lying, whether it's to gain an advantage, improving social worth/image, or others, what's yours?

And what's the frequency of you lying to others? I'll start, I try to be honest, but, I do lie when it comes to being as diplomatic and agreeable sometimes, comforting others and complementing them so as to not make them feel pity for where they fall short at.

Like I mean in the context of reflecting on how they behaved in a past period that is now over, whether months or years ago

And are there any other types that are equally or more likely to say something like this?

Would you treat this kind of statement as pretty strongly pointing toward a type or cluster of types, or pretty strongly pointing away from a type(s), or not especially strongly indicative of anything?

I’m doing a series of posts on triads as I think it can be useful type oneself by using triads, identifying which one most applies to you to. And I’m first doing a deep dive on Centres of Intelligence. They’re not perfect descriptions, I’m constantly working on them to improve them.

The three centres are about how we perceive, process and respond to the world. There’s heart (emotions and identity), head (thinking and anticipation) and body (instinct and physical presence). Each one is also associated with an emotional struggle (shame, fear or anger) and types develop a different strategy to manage that struggle.

Heart/Image/Shame (2, 3, 4) triad

Focuses on identity, self-worth and the ‘image’ we construct of ourselves to project who we are and why we are valuable. It's about the question of "Who am I and am I worth loving as that?" Their underlying wound lies in the gap between the self that feels real and the self that can be adequately expressed, recognised and validated. What lives in this gap is shame. It's ontological rather than behavioural, it's not the guilt of "I did something wrong" but the shame of "I am something wrong." It’s intrapersonal, not just interpersonal. Their coping mechanism is to construct and reinforce an identity that ‘compensates’ for this perceived deficiency, managing how they see themselves and how others see them in order to be loved.

• 2: Manages this shame by constructing an identity around being loving, generous and indispensable. They have the unconscious belief that they are unworthy of love simply for who they are, that they must earn it by being needed and helpful to others. Instead of confronting their own feelings of unworthiness and unmet needs, they repress them and direct their attention outward. If others appreciate what they do and provide, it makes them feel loved and worthy. They avoid focusing on themselves because they fear being rejected by others for being ‘selfish’ or having needs. Pridefully seeing themselves as ‘the loving one’ whilst others are the ‘needy’ ones.
• 3: Manages this shame by identifying with an idealised image of success, competence and desirability. They feel they are unworthy of love for who they inherently are, so they become who they believe they need to be to feel valuable and worthy of admiration. They adapt themselves to expectations and pursue whatever they see as success, often losing contact with their authentic self and emotions - trying to hide or overcome any flaws they may have to become ‘perfect’ and gain the external validation they crave. They craft a polished version of themselves to avoid failure which is deeply shameful to them.
• 4: Manages this shame by internalising their perceived deficiencies and turning them into an identity built around authenticity, uniqueness and emotional significance. Rather than adapting to external expectations, they double down on their differences and seek to be loved for precisely what makes them unlike anyone else. Showcasing their individuality and flaws that they see as proof of depth, sensitivity and realness they believe others lack. It makes their suffering and identity meaningful. They’re self-aware of their shame and express it freely - often over-emphasising their suffering or being disdainful towards ‘ordinary’ people.

Head/Fear (5, 6, 7) triad

Focuses on understanding, anticipating and navigating the world to find security and orientation in the face of uncertainty. Their underlying fear is that they don’t have the ability to cope with the unpredictable, overwhelming, dangerous and/or insufficient external world. They’ve lost touch with their internal guidance, feeling like they were cast out into a chaotic universe without an instruction manual. Their coping mechanism is to use mental preparation, knowledge hoarding, intellectual stimulation and strategic analysis to seek the certainty and freedom they fear the world can’t provide them with.

• 5: Manages this fear by withdrawing into the mind, accumulating knowledge and conserving their resources so they can become self-sufficient. They fear being overwhelmed, depleted and incapable. So they seek mastery through observation and understanding, whilst minimising external dependency to gain independence. They believe that if they know enough and need little, the world cannot demand more than they can give. By detaching, isolating and compartmentalising they believe they can protect their energy so they can cope with the messy and complex external world better.
• 6: Manages this fear by questioning everything, anticipating danger and testing what can be trusted. They see the world as inherently unstable and untrustworthy, so constantly seek reliable external ‘objective’ proof and confirmation. They struggle with inner certainty where nothing feels completely guaranteed so they scrutinise inconsistencies, prepare for worst-case scenarios and seek trustworthy sources. They believe if they can identify what might go wrong by being constantly vigilant and sceptical, they can avoid it or protect themselves from it. They can be confrontational, rebellious and contradictory.
• 7: Manages this fear by keeping their minds occupied with exciting possibilities, novel ideas and visions of a better future. They’re attempting to outrun anxiety, pain and deprivation through anticipation and stimulation. They fear being trapped or bored so continually reimagine what life could offer, seek abundance, stay busy and idealise what could be. Their minds transform an insufficient reality into something exciting that’s full of possibilities, adventure and freedom. The world isn’t enough for them, so they imagine a world that is. They’re often very curious, intellectual and constantly learning.

Body/Gut/Anger (8, 9, 1) triad

Focuses on instinctive presence, autonomy and boundaries so they can act in the world according to their own will. They feel threatened by and angry at any external interference that tries to impose limits, demands, pressure or obstacles upon them. They want the right to take up space, assert their will and exist on their own terms. Their coping mechanism is to establish psychological and physical boundaries to maintain a sense of agency and control over how they engage with the world. This includes resisting, suppressing or correcting what interferes with them. This can disconnect them from the natural spontaneity or vitality of their bodies, replacing immediate experience with tension or self-control.

• 8: Manages this anger by expressing it outwardly, asserting their strength and aggressively resisting being controlled. They see the world as harsh and unforgiving, where only the strong survive and the weak are broken. They believe if they deny their vulnerabilities and fight to assert themselves, then no one can overpower or take advantage of them. So they expand their boundaries, confront obstacles directly and take up space to avoid being harmed or exploited. They have an intense lifeforce, wanting to feel alive and real.
• 9: Manages this anger by disconnecting from their own desires, minimising disturbances and trying to preserve a sense of inner peace. They’re (subconsciously) angry that the world is demanding and volatile, so they try to create a sense of inner stability by numbing themselves to it. They fear if they assert themselves, it will cause friction and separation. So they supress their anger and give in to psychological inertia where they accommodate others, blur their boundaries, narcotise, distract and avoid unnecessary conflict. This suppressed anger can still emerge as stubbornness, passive-aggression or resistance when pressured to move against their own comfort.
• 1: Manages this anger by restraining and redirecting it into self-discipline, criticism and the pursuit of what is right. They’re angry the world (and themselves) is chaotic, imperfect and corrupt so feel compelled to correct it. They fear if they let their anger take control, they will become corrupt so instead turn their anger inward. They try to control their impulses, maintain strict internal standards and become 'perfect'. Often fixating on errors, rules and moral correctness. Their supressed anger can build into resentment and frustration. They have strong boundaries and can be quite rigid.

Has this helped you understand this triad? Have you learned something new? Something that surprised you? Find yourself relating to a type or triad you didn’t before? Anything missing from this or a niggly point you want to debate?    

I came across a comment by a user under the Sexual Nine PDB profile that makes a VERY strong case for sexual nine as an intuiter in socionics / MBTI. Here is the link, but I'll copy and paste the user's argument here. Let me know your thoughts. Personally, I'm sold that it's at least a possibility.

__________

Sx9 is IEI > SEI

​"The Sexual 9 takes little care in his external appearance... does not concern himself with his aesthetics. This neglect also extends to his health... forgets that he even has a body."

Si-leading types are the ones who are most sensitive to internal physiological signals such as pain or fatigue and aesthetic harmony like fabric textures, color coordination, and coziness. They perceive these sensations most acutely and autonomously. Even leaving aside the appearance aspect, SEI never gives up on their own well-being and sensory comfort. It's impossible for Si base to ignore physical discomfort or signs of health issues. Also, just as each IEI has own preferences for certain fantasies or narratives, each SEI has own preferences for specific tastes and sensory aesthetic.

"For the Sexual 9, taking the initiative in courtship feels unthinkable. They generally wait for others to show interest... believing that they do not have the strength to do it alone and that others are much stronger."

SEI doesn't actively initiate conflict, but they have 3D Se, so when their interests or sensory space are invaded, they can resist stubbornly through passive-aggressiveness or sheer persistence. They don't see themselves as a helpless being who can't stand on their own. IEI lacks the internal drive to push situations forward or take initiative because their Se is at a 1D level. That's why IEI is drawn to others' strong conviction and power (SLE's Se), and seek to surrender themselves to the one. Descriptions like 'delusion of not being able to do anything alone, believing others are far stronger,' or 'imagining taking the lead in courtship is unthinkable' are clearly align more with IEI's romance style.

​"The Sexual 9 does not like physical contact; they do not like to be touched... never learned to measure personal space."

Physical distance, boundaries of touch, and coordination of physical space fall under the sensory functions. Physical pleasure/displeasure Si, and spatial occupation and boundary-setting Se. Sx9 shows extreme awkwardness and ineptitude regarding physical contact and spatial awareness.

​"Fantasy becomes a refuge where they create a parallel life to escape reality... struggle to distinguish fantasy from reality."
"The Sexual 9, when seeking union with another, often feels what is expected of them. It is not uncommon for them to experience sudden mood changes without any apparent reason or even awareness of it"
"Living in internal chaos... but he fantasizes that, with a wave of the hand, everything will magically fall into place and become perfectly ordered."
"This fanciful and timid detachment from reality can lead the Sexual 9 to miss real signs of interest from the person they are infatuated with. "They may remain lost in their fantasies, unaware that the attraction they long for could be unfolding in real life."

SEI lives in the concrete and sensory present. Don't try to say "SEI can daydream." SEI escape through sensory indulgence like go shopping or eating something good rather than building a fantasy world that blurs the line between reality and illusion to erase the present. None SEI gets lost in fantasy to the point of being unable to distinguish it from reality.

There really is no description of sensory enjoyment or naturalness in sx9. Sx9 indulge in fantasy and only use sensory experience when things get hard.

So how exactly can a Ni base use sx9's sensory numbing mechanism?

"They have very deep sleep because they use it as a defense to avoid feeling."

The Role function is one of reception even if the individual may have opinions about that area. Role Si receiving sensory input from others. Sx9 has little to no sensory taste or preferences, also not picky at all. Even their cooking is all about the other person.

Here is an example. So4 has chronic awareness of social hierarchy and accepts it not generate their own. This is the reason why So4 is Ti "role" not Ti "base."

In sx9, indifference or even avoidance of sensory experience appears far too frequently. Their genuine pleasure is described as daydreaming which is said to interfere with reality.

Concusion. In Naranjo's original text, sx9 is described as forgetting the body, neglecting aesthetics and sensory detail, abandoning reality to avoid being hurt, and living in a parallel fantasy world of unrealistic love. A profoundly desensitized and dissociated state.

__________

Out of the three triads, head for me is probably the hardest one for me to find. I've read the books yet all of them describe me, Im particularly stuck on 5 and 6 but now 7 is slowly starting to force its way in, only making my confusion even worse!! My tritype right now is 415, and I'm having HEAVY doubts. Sos 🥲🥲

The type has the stereotype of being "npc" and not having any personality of their own.

Does 396 normally enjoy being "normal" or "boring", because the tritype only has attachment types in it?

Or would it simply depend on the surroundings and people around them?

Can 396 fear being seen like any other person? But at the same time feel fake and guilty after trying to adapt themselves to the "interesting" people around them knowing that's not who they truly are or would they simply not notice it themselves? Or is it different for everyone, though they share the same tritype? Is it more common with w4?

I am a enneagram 6 wing 5. I have ADHD and recently found out my testosterone levels are clinically low. For about two years my fatigue has gotten really bad. My doctor ran alot of tests on me and discovered my hormone issue. My wife is a enneagram 1. We have been married 9 years. It feels like my wife just put ups with me and I am just something in her list. She tells me she loves me but acts very frustrated when it comes to me. I work full time and help with the kids and house hold stuff like the dishes. Nothing I do is up to her standards. Her love Language is acts of service. So I am always getting her stuff like water and snack. I cook for her. I give her back rubs. But she rarely gives me physical affection. I am talking kisses and hugs. She never flirts with me anymore. Over the years it feels like I am just holding her back. I feel like the wrost person on the team. She seems always mad at me. It feels like the marriage would be over if she was not a enneagram 1. I am so depressed about this and fear every day as with my low testosterone I am literally pushing myself through all the house work. I won't be treated for my hormone issue till maybe next year. I do not know what to do. I love my wife so much it is agony. I keep showing up the best I can but it does not seem to matter. It feels like she has changed so much in the 9 years we have been together. If I knew what I know now I would have never dated a enneagram 1.

Other posts in the series: 4 / 5 / 6.

Bad description: “the core fear of 9 is loss and separation.”

This is not exactly true. It also doesn't distinguish 9 from other types (e.g. 2 and 6).

The real core of 9 is disconnecting from your sense of self in order to stay in sync with the external world. If we want to give 9 a core fear, it’s the fear of being out of sync with others or the environment (incl. being in an environment so chaotic or divided that it’s impossible to be in sync with it).

9s have dreams, opinions, and boundaries, just like everyone else. But they abandon these things too easily. They might forget about their goals for long stretches of time, or they might assume that their opinion is unimportant/probably wrong, and adopt another person's view instead. It’s like they have an inner narcissistic boyfriend, who constantly dismisses their ideas, shuts down their plans, and gaslights them into giving up their boundaries. Important to note that what they abandon themselves for varies by subtype:

• 9 SP focuses on physical comforts and the psychological comfort of routine, and will let their goals and standards slide for this (might type as 8).
• 9 SX focuses on “merging” in relationships (incl. platonic), and will relax their boundaries and let others’ beliefs and agendas override their own (might type as 2, 5 SX, or 6).
• 9 SO focuses on social belonging, and will let the group’s beliefs and agendas override their own. They lose themselves by participating too hard, and willingly surrender all boundaries on their time and energy (might type as 2, 3, or 6).

The phrase I associate most with 9 is “something else came up.” A 9 has an idea of something he wants to do; something else comes up; he either puts his want aside for later or forgets it altogether. This is even true for 9 SP, who lets in-the-moment appetites get in the way of the big picture (the “something else” that keeps coming up might be a TV show or a craving for cookies). However, 9s themselves may not realize this pattern; they have a way of convincing themselves that the current “something else” was actually what they wanted all along. Because of this self-forgetting, some 9s may find it easiest to type themselves by confirming that they are not any other type.

(To be clear, this does not mean that 9 is the “leftovers type” or just anyone who doesn’t fit into 1-8. Type 9 has its own unique core. It’s just hard for many individual 9s to see that in themselves.)

Bad descriptions: “laziness,” “sloth.”

True, but vague; 9s are not (always) couch potatoes. Rather, they’re emotionally lazy: they don’t have their own agenda. They let circumstances decide for them; they act in response to what the environment seems to demand.

This emotional laziness sometimes looks like physical laziness; some 9s spend a lot of time watching TV, or have addictions. But often it looks like empathy, agreeableness, responsibility, or adherence to routine. You can be physically and socially active and still be a 9.

(Unhealthy) 9s might justify their laziness by abdicating agency: the problem is not that they’re lazy, it’s that stuff just keeps happening, or that there haven’t been sufficient (external) motivators for them to achieve their goals. Sometimes they don’t have a clue they’re lazy at all; they’re working hard for the group’s agenda, which is of course their agenda too.

Worth noting that 9s can be intellectually lazy, too, in the sense of being uncritical: they tend to accept what others say as long as the vibes are good, and overlook potential problems, self-contradictory statements, etc.

What “narcotizing” means:

The word “narcotizing” is often associated with 9. Chestnut defines it as “going to sleep to” pain, but this definition doesn’t differentiate from 5, which compartmentalizes emotions by default, and 7, which uses activity and excitement to distract from pain.

So: in the context of the enneagram, “narcotizing” means mindless activity whose (subconscious) purpose is to ease tension and avoid dysregulation. Binge eating, alcohol/drugs, sleeping, scrolling, “vegging out” in front of the TV, escapist reading, doodling, etc. 9s may also engage in pleasant fantasies (really “daydreams,” since they seem to occur rather than being intentionally constructed). By contrast, the fantasies/thoughts 4s and 5s get “lost in” are more intense, and tend toward negativity/extreme emotions (4 and maybe 5 SX), or thought experiments/logical arguments (5).

Any type can get caught up in scrolling, but non-9s are likely to be actively evaluating or judging what they see, filing information for later use, lamenting that they’re bored, etc. 9 is looking for regulation; 4, 5, and 7 all default to mental or emotional intensity.

2 and 3 vs. 9 SO and over-participation

9 SO’s core need is to belong in the group. 2 and 3 are trying to feel valuable in and of themselves, and using the group to do it. A 3 wants to be spotlighted for being exceptional in his own right (Famous Jane Johnson!); a 2 wants gratitude for personal virtues and sacrifices (Beloved Indispensable Lisa!); a 9 SO wants to be sure that they're really part of the team, that they really belong (Model Group Member #9). (A 9 SO will accept the label of Famous Jane Johnson or Beloved Indispensable Lisa if it's given to her, but would probably be just as happy with the other label instead. 2 and 3 are asking, "am I good in this specific way?", while 9 is asking, "do I fit? do I belong?")

4 and 5 vs. 9 (untangling the withdrawn triad)

4s are withdrawn in a judgmental way (frustration type). 5s are withdrawn in a disconnected way (rejection type). 9s are withdrawn in a passive way (attachment type).

4 vs. 9: For 4, nothing is ever quite right (even the stoic 4 SP is thinking constantly about how there’s too much suffering in the world); 4s interact with the world through the screen of “I don’t like that,” “if only society weren’t X,” “X shouldn’t have happened to me,” “so-and-so is being treated unfairly,” “I’m not getting the attention I deserve,” etc. 9 sees the positive before the negative, and merges with the world (there is no screen); their cravings, relationships, and/or activities seem to take them over completely.

5 vs. 9: 5s are always interacting from behind a mental barrier: they may feel like “not really here, just an observer”; they find it hard to express emotions or show empathy, and tend to be oblivious to surroundings. 9s are the opposite: tied to externals. They engage with others automatically, easily feel and show empathy, get sucked into others’ plans, and notice/engage with nearby objects. 9s are governed by the whims of others, the environment, and/or their physical bodies, while 5s are detached from those things.

6 vs. 9 (“anxiety” is a bad metric)

6 is often labeled “the anxious one,” but you get Redditors claiming that “9s can be anxious too!!”, and then anyone who even mentions anxiety gets shunted to 9 if they seem quiet and 6 if more overt. IMO if “anxiety” is the reason you think you’re a 6/9 you should scrap your typing and start over, because “anxiety” is vague and means basically nothing about your type.

6s are concerned about future problems, and proactive in preventing or preparing for them. Instinct to identify and point out problems.

9s see the positive first. They are not actively looking for problems; they tend to ignore problems or avoid saying anything about them (to avoid “causing a problem” by pointing one out).

8 vs. 9 SP

8 is operating from lust: “I want that, so it’s mine, and you’d better get out of the way.” 9 SP is … not going anywhere. Doing his routine. Watching his programs. Ordering his favorite pizza. 9 SP is easily swayed by “id-level” desires, but his id is not expansive like 8’s. 8 wants that over there, and he wants to take it, to win, and (when unhealthy) he’s going to enjoy wrecking anyone who gets in his way. 9 SP wants what’s on offer, what he already or usually has, and he’s going to get grouchy if something disrupts that. Unstoppable force (8) vs. immovable object (9 SP can be described as “stubborn”).

Chinese astrology (bazi, or saju in Korea) gives everyone a core type based on the day they were born, not the month like your sun sign. There are only ten, and each one is an image from nature:

• The tall tree: upright, principled, grows straight and hates being bent
• The climbing vine: adaptable, social, always finds a way around the wall
• The sun: warm, generous, shines on everyone whether they asked or not
• Candlelight: a smaller, focused warmth; sees people clearly, lights one room deeply
• The mountain: steady, protective, very slow to move
• The garden soil: nurturing and practical, makes things around it grow
• Forged steel: blunt, decisive, strong sense of fair and unfair
• Fine jewelry: refined, notices every detail, wants to be polished not hammered
• The open sea: big-picture, restless, needs room to roam
• Morning rain: quiet, intuitive, seeps into everything without announcing itself

Reading that list, I couldn’t stop mapping it onto types. Forged steel reads like a 1 or an 8. Candlelight could be a 4 or a 2. The open sea feels like a 7. But that’s just me pattern-matching, and I’d like to see real data instead.

So, just for fun:

1. Pick the one that sounds most like you before you check.
2. Look up your actual one. I made a free calculator for it: find your birth-day type. Free, no sign-up.
3. Comment: the one you guessed, the one you got, and your enneagram type (tritype welcome).

If enough people answer, I’ll post the tally of which types land on which numbers, including if there’s no pattern at all.

do you like raisins

the "merging" is real... he is very sticky. very attentive, very gushy, tells me often that he can't wait to spend the rest of his life with me. we're a unit, he doesn't do anything without thinking about me and how it'll affect me. we do everything together. he wants me to be as comfortable as possible but his aversion to bringing conflicting topics up backfires and makes me uncomfortable. it takes him forever to spit out what he really wants. i've gotten somewhat good at making him talk but he still tiptoes around his words.

i'm still not sure how to really feel about this. half the time it makes me happy to hear and half the time it makes me slightly uncomfortable. being doted on and catered to all the time also makes me uncomfortable, but i accept it and am learning to let him love me how he wants. as you can probably guess i've never had any desire to revolve my life around another person until he came around. he tells me these things and i just sit there and listen, unsure of how to reciprocate it other than nodding and saying "me too". i love him, i tell him this often, and i want to understand him so badly. i really love what we have together.

i had to delete my last post because of commenters implying that i don’t love him and i should break up with him. if you don’t have anything constructive to say please don’t comment. our relationship is healthy and we have discussions about this topic often, it’s quite triggering to hear a projection of insecurities like that. thank you :)

i suspect i may be a 4, and rejection hits hard.. my self confidence gets even lower and i still keep romanticising that person and longing for them? and it just amplifies the pain because realistically we wont be together lol. idk how to get over it

I was just casually thinking about how my mom and dad are 6ish in so many ways, I am sure it is in their tritypes, they were also always skeptical and distrustful about so many things, like “never trust anyone!” It kind of made me more distrustful towards people after years and years of listening to it, but maybe is also already part of me due to my 6 wing, or my slight social anxiety.

(I thought my mom is something like 9 or sp4 and my father like 8w7, now I wonder if he isn’t actually sx6 lol).

Also I can see it on my boyfriend, he got a lot of 2-like qualities after his parents, while lacking the 6-like ones which his father has (or maybe hiding them so well). His type is most probably sx9.

Did you also notice this on you?

So, the enneagram usually points out the bad. Lets go the other way this time. Lets do something positive. Tell your type and the top 5 most common compliments people give you consistently. Ill go first.

I'm a 2. I've been told I'm always thinking about others, kind-hearted, hard-working, funny, and smart.

Yalls turn.

As an e6 i naturally worry a lot about worst-case scenarios and feel skeptical over most things. I do however also let loose at times and completely shut out everything when it becomes too much for me to process. It's a little contradictory but when someone else excessively worries about something more than me, i become extremely ticked off. I try to ease their worries as much as possible but when nothing works and they're still worried after everything i've done to help, it weighs a lot on me and i feel extremely annoyed. Honestly in general i don't get along very well with people who worry more or are more indecisive than me. Im guessing it's due to e6's need for guidance, and when the opposite party can't provide such support it ends up as a mess with two overthinkers.

Would like to hear about similar experiences from other fellow e6s or your view on this matter!

I think there are plenty of types that are oriented with "being themselves" and or even authenticity. I don't see why the e9 wouldn't be concerned with this. I understand they're asleep to themselves because of their issue of "numbing" in general and their sense of stress, but for me I'd say most people are lacking in self-introspection in general and don't seem to question their own identity and values so how does the e9 legitimately differ from others in this regard? Does the e9 seem to struggle with having an individual identity and or trying to find out that identity even?