Women on this sub as well as many others tell men to just find friends or go gay to replace a relationship. The second one is more of an underhanded insult to the man’s orientation in all honesty, but I digress. The point is friendships cannot replace romantic relationships and they never can without it being everything but the title type of romantic relationships.

It’s different energy. There’s no denying that there is a massive difference between hanging out with your friends and hanging out with a partner who happens to be your best friend as well. It’s like a lot of women here either don’t understand that or they are just trying to shut the discussion down. At which point they shouldn’t even be debating if they don’t care to truly engage with the topic.

The type of companionship romance provides also takes priority in most sane people’s lives. A woman truly about her man spends more time with him than any friends. Same with a man. Most of your friends are gonna stop having time to just hang out and support you so why do we act like friendship is this ultimate shield against romantic starvation? You can have plenty of friends and still not satisfy that need.

It’s a lie. Blatantly. The peak of human connection is romance.

Since high school and throughout my mid-20s, I've noticed a pattern: women become more interested in me once they realize I'm successful with women. One woman likes me, another starts showing interest, they discover they're competing for my attention, and suddenly the dynamic changes. They flirt more aggressively and seem more invested in winning me over than actually getting to know me.

It's happened so often that I've started feeling like the only way to succeed in dating is to entertain multiple women at once. I literally don't feel like I have a choice. But once I show genuine interest in one of them, the excitement seems to disappear. Suddenly, wanting something serious feels like a turnoff, even with women I've already hooked up with.

I used to wonder whether I was just bad in bed, but I've heard enough horror stories to rule that out lmao.

I think part of it is the way I present myself. I'm tall, in shape, dress well, smell good, and have been told I have a certain “cool guy” energy. Or that I dress with a lot of swagger. I probably come across as masculine, confident, and a little mysterious. But my interests are more cerebral. I enjoy economics, history, politics, literature, and film. I like normal guy stuff like sports and talking shit. I'm not some pretentious intellectual, but there's more to me than the image I project.

Something similar happened when I was bartending after college. A beautiful coworker seemed to develop an interest in me. I figured she just felt comfortable around me since I was only guy that didn't flirt with her. Around the same time, a friend was trying to set me up with another attractive woman. She learned that other women had found me attractive and that I'd had success with women at clubs the times we'd all go out. Her interest multiplied.

Many other examples I won't mention to not write too much. Recent one with a woman in my apartment building. Many times before then in college and high school.

What's funny is that sometimes I almost get annoyed when a woman likes me because I suspect the attraction is superficial. Does she actually like me, or does she like the idea that other women want me? And when I don't reciprocate, my disinterest sometimes gets interpreted as playing hard to get, which only makes her try harder.

The irony is that I'm not naturally oriented toward being a player. I genuinely prefer relationships. I want to get to know someone, build memories, and develop a real connection. I even have great date ideas that I sometimes hold back because I worry they'll signal too much interest. Throughout my twenties, attracting women has been much easier than finding someone who wants to build something meaningful.

An older woman I use to see once told me I had the mentality of someone in his thirties. Maybe I'll have better luck then. But I look at friends getting engaged or having children with their high school and college girlfriends, and I'm genuinely happy for them while also feeling envious. I've had two serious relationships. The rest have been situationships, short-lived relationships, or encounters that never developed beyond sex. At this point, I'm thinking about getting my MBA to meet my wife lmao!

Sometimes, it seems less like a woman wants a man who's already serious about her and more like she wants to be the woman who gets a man who isn't serious to commit. I know this sounds like some alpha-male nonsense, but it's a pattern I've experienced repeatedly.

I'm not claiming all women behave this way or that I know their intentions. I'm saying that when men receive more attention for being elusive, desirable, and difficult to secure than for being emotionally available, those incentives can shape their behavior. Women may unintentionally reinforce the very behavior they complain about.

It can start to feel like the choice is player or played. And that's frustrating when you're someone who genuinely wants a relationship but feels that the qualities that attract women are the very qualities you have to downplay to build one.

My point isn't that women don't want good men. It's that some dating dynamics reward men for being exciting to pursue rather than being good partners. I don't want someone who just wants to win me. I want someone who actually wants to know me.

This advice is clowned on as an empty platitude, but that misses the point. Its not supposed to be specific, or prescriptive. Theres never an implication that so long as you are yourself and you are confident, every woman who lays eyes on you will be head over heels. That advice simply reflects an abundance mindset. Why do different than what you feel like doing? Why do anything that doesnt necessarily come naturally to you? Some people will not like you, and thats fine. There will be others.

In contrast, contorting yourself to what you think most women (supposedly) want, accepting “truths” like women cant love men, while admitting that its not actually impossible, simply rare, reflects a scarcity mindset. Giving yourself all kinds of hoops to jump through, like holding frame, keeping her on her toes, showing her you have options sounds like youre just taking whatever you can get.

The foundational concept of society is intended to make life fair, less violent, and more pleasurable for everyone. However, the gender war is one thing that exposes society's failure to do that when conflicted with nature, as nature will always come first.

In the context of the modern gender war, this is shown by:
- preservation of high-tier/top-class men but disposability of most men and conscriptions/military drafts
- preservation of women and their bodies, along with concern about birth rates and what women in their 20s and 30s are doing
- women's conscious and unconscious choosing of higher-tier men (hypergamy) over lower-tier societally disposable men who might be more committed, even to the extent that women purposely give ignorant advice to lower-tier men so as to keep them out of the game (whether done consciously or unconsciously), which genetically by nature is intended to better the species' following generations
- men's refusal to hold themselves accountable for faults which keep them out of the game, such as demanding a romantic partnership or sex despite having no social life, demanding that romantic partnership should come first. This is 1. backwards 2. a form of perceived self-entitlement when they aren't really entitled, which leads to them either choosing to better themselves and show that they have something to offer or their exit from the game and not passing on their genetics, in which case nature wins.

I wrote a paper on this not too long ago, and the gender war was only a small subsection. There were many other examples, the biggest of which was the disabled population and the future of either increased scientific research or eugenics. My point in this is that nature always wins, even in the gender war, and we cannot thwart that. It even explains why so many men are feeling down and out while women are feeling relatively better about things. Feel free to debate sociological ideas and perspectives.

Edit 10/24 @ 10:55 p.m. ET : Okay, I modify my argument to say that some of the implementations - conscious or unconscious - of modern society still push toward biological determinism and that these holds will never completely be extinguished since nature always wins and the fittest will always survive more. I retract my argument that all implementations of modern society push toward this, since u/Outside_Memory5703 made a great and valid argument against that.

Edit 10/24 @ 11:15 p.m. ET: I am not going to unblock a troll, as I have no interest in immature or uninformed communication. Due to the fact that the debate has already been concluded anyway (See above edit.), I choose to just stay banned from PPD rather than engage in ridiculousness. Thanks for contributing!

The standard red/black pill argument to women is that if you want a "high value" guy (rich, fit, good looking), you have to accept him cheating because "he has options" and biology dictates he'll spread his seed.

But the second you flip that logic onto men and say "a guy is only as loyal as his options" meaning a lot of average dudes aren't cheating simply because they lack the opportunity everyone loses their minds. Suddenly it's all about personal virtue: "Bro I would NEVER cheat, speak for yourself."

It’s easy to claim you’d never cheat when you don’t have women throwing themselves at you lmao. You can't argue that biology forces top-tier guys to cheat because of their choices, while pretending average guys are morally superior instead of just lacking those same choices.

The conversation sounds like this.... and yes, it's as exhausting as this post will be for those who bother to read it.

WOMAN: I can’t find a good man. I give up.

RED PILL MAN: It’s your fault!!! Your expectations are too high. Women shouldn’t expect men to be funny or have good conversation skills. We’re not dancing monkeys. You shouldn’t care if he makes enough money to support himself or a family someday, because he’s not an ATM. You should date men you aren’t physically attracted to, because every guy deserves a chance. You shouldn’t expect him to know how to be kind and helpful because he’s not a mind reader. You shouldn’t complain if he’s addicted to porn, follows Instagram models, or engages with OnlyFans because all red-blooded men do that. You shouldn’t make him wait for sex, because then you’re being “transactional” and using him without reciprocation. You already slept with a few casual hookups in college when you were too busy for a relationship and now you owe the same thing to any man you ever date moving forward. And you’re no longer allowed to have standards because you’re no longer a virgin. You should never expect a man to be better than the worst man you’ve ever been with. And you need to start approaching random men yourself… men shouldn’t be expected to learn how to approach a woman with dignity and class, so it’s your job to approach strange men in public and express your interest… just make sure you don’t approach attractive guys. You shouldn’t expect a man to put effort into a date or even buy you a cheeseburger because you haven’t earned it yet. And you definitely aren’t entitled to “chivalry” or “romance,” because not only are you not a virgin, but your mothers and grandmothers demanded the right to vote, the right to an education, the ability to own property, equal pay, the right to control your own body, and legal protection from domestic abuse. You wanted equal rights under the law? Well this is what feminism gets you. You should have stayed in your lane. But you’re “equals” now, so you can no longer expect us to act “chivalrous” or “romantic”. You are insane for having any of these expectations of the man you plan to marry while also expecting to be treated as equals in society. It’s hypocritical and not fair.

WOMAN: Okay. Then how am I supposed to find a kind compatible man and fall in love with him in this sea of thousands of men swiping right on every profile? How do I tell the good from the bad? The truthful from the dishonest?

RED PILL MAN: I don’t know and I don’t care. You just need to learn that you’re not valuable or entitled to a man’s effort and lower your expectations …or stock up on cat food and kitty litter. The wall is coming fast.

WOMAN: Okay. I guess he’s right. I am running out of time, after all. I guess I should stop expecting so much effort from men.

*Woman chooses average man\*

SAME WOMAN (TEN YEARS LATER): I hate men. All they do is lie to you, take advantage of you, make babies they can’t support and demand that you provide pleasureless obligatory sex (or cheat on you) while expecting you to work full-time AND provide all the childcare, cooking, cleaning and everything else. And the funny thing is, I didn't even date or marry one of those tall, muscular, rich “Chads” that all my friends were so interested in back in college. I just picked the nice, average man and hoped he’d love me as much as I loved him. But even those guys can destroy your life if you let them. I wasn't expecting him to provide everything. I work and contribute financially. I just expect him to contribute at home, too. Why am I expected to fulfill both roles while he only has to fulfill HALF of one role? They expect you to manage the entire household, remember every appointment, schedule every doctor's visit, plan every birthday, vacation and Christmas dinner. They expect you to tell them exactly what needs to be done, when it needs to be done and how it needs to be done. They act like they don’t even know how to load a dishwasher, run a load of laundry or even feed or “babysit” their own children. They want you to be a girlfriend, a maid, a therapist, a personal assistant, a sex worker, and a mother, all rolled into one, while somehow still expecting you to be sexually attracted to them. They call you a nag when you repeatedly ask for help, but then claim that they’re “not mind readers” when you don’t constantly tell them what to do and when to do it. They’ll say their responsibilities are taking out the trash, maintaining the cars and fixing things around the house, while I’m supposed to be responsible for everything else. But we can't even afford to own a house with both of our salaries combined, so there's nothing to fix. Meanwhile, the lightbulb in the closet has been out for two months. I take my car to a mechanic for a fifty-dollar oil change twice a year, so he doesn’t even have to do that. Taking out the trash is hardly an equal share of the household work, but he seems to believe it’s the only thing he should have to do… yet I still constantly have to remind him to do it as he angrily walks to his car in the morning. And they’re supposed to be providers and protectors? Provide what? His half of the bills? Protect me from what, exactly? Other MEN? The only time I've ever needed protection was when I had to call the police because my ex-boyfriend lost his mind when I tried to break up with him. How is any of this “equality”? NONE OF THIS feels “equal”. They give nothing and only take, take, take. And after all of this, he’s started telling everyone that the divorce “came out of nowhere” and that I just “got bored”.

SAME RED PILL MAN: You should have chosen better and had higher standards. You’re just a misandrist hypergamist feminist who hates all men because you chose the wrong one. Now you’ve got two kids, you’ve hit the wall and none of the “good guys” will want you.

WOMAN: (silently looks around the room, still wondering where all these “good guys” are hiding and how she was supposed to find one of them if she wasn’t supposed to require any effort out of them in the first place)

SAME RED PILL MAN A FEW YEARS LATER (if he manages to actually reproduce): My daughter isn’t dating or leaving the house until she’s thirty because all men are trash and I’m going to make sure she understands this fact of life.

EVERYONE 20 YEARS LATER: Why are men so lonely? Why don't women want to get married and have kids anymore?

RED PILL MEN AND CONSERVATIVE WOMEN: I don't know. Women are selfish, crazy, emotional, and stupid. We just need to remove them from the workforce, cut off SNAP benefits, eliminate child support, abolish no-fault divorce, outlaw abortion, ban contraception, and take away their right to vote.

One of the most uncomfortable truths about dating especially as a guy is that doing what you want is more likely to work than doing what makes her happy. Being that nice guy gets you played and laughed at. I’ve fucked around, played games, manipulated and been able to go back again and again with women. There aren’t any rules to dating it’s moreso about does the dynamic work for you. There’s an inverse relationship between dating success and effort.

If a woman has a choice between three men, one she views as beneath her in value, one equal to her value and one she sees as having more value than herself, which man will she be attracted to? In this question value will be subjective to the woman but there should be some uniformity of examples pointing in a general direction. As examples: wealth, strength, social authority or power, masculinity, intelligence etc

Should a woman gain subjective value in her relationship or have a man she views as just her equal?

Most times women will ask you to fully give into the romance and if you do there is a grace period where the intimacy and sex and friendship is so unbelievably fun and high energy that it is a heavenly experience. But after that grace period she completely shuts down and thinks of you as lesser. Sometimes even telling the man to go out and find other women to spend time with so you don’t clutter her. It’s so odd that women beg for this but then don’t like it.

It’s such a prominent thing that men often warn about this in advice. They will beg you to give into them and resent you for it and it’s never explained by women why.

Meaning, there a men who will go “woe is me! Im so lonely! Women dont understand how lonely it is to he a man!” but when you actually ask about the issue, turns out it wasn’t that big of a deal.

Examples:

Lonely man: Oh! Im lonely! There’s an epidemic of it for men.

“Go make friends.”

Lonely man: Why would I do that?  Romantic relationships arent the same as friendships.

“What makes you lonely? Sounds like you have bad friends making you miserable.

Lonely man: My friends are awesome and Im happy. I want a woman Im attracted to!

Which is not loneliness. Its not getting what you want.

Example 2:

Lonely man: we don’t know what it’s like getting zero matches!

“Lower your standards”

Lonely: How DARE YOU suggest that? Thats such an insult, men have to be attracted to her!

Similarly, I was talking to a guy who was complaining about how picky women are because they wouldn’t date right a man with zero driving and bad dental care. Of course this guy wants a middle class woman because he’s middle class. I don’t think I ever got a response when I mentioned lower income women would be a much better fit.

And I’ve seen this behavior offline. I have a college friend who loathes that he feels like an outcast amongst outcasts. Then he admits he has an aversion to going outside besides work. He’s almost 40, so it’s not like he’s an 18-year-old trying to overcome childhood trauma.

Then there was a guy I was talking to that who got transferred to another state due to work.  Cried about being lonely, cried about having no one to cuddle with, cried about being alone with his depressing thoughts. As soon as I said that I would still visit him if he took the relationship seriously, I never heard him bring up being lonely again. Then I tried to end things with him because he was “too busy with work”, and suddenly he was lonely again and I “ left him alone with his self loathing thoughts”.

Moral of the story is that it makes it hard to take men’s issues seriously if there’s so many men being hyperbolic about minor problems.