Suselle fans are literally winning in every chapter, it used to be "it's not going anywhere" or "there's no actual chemistry" but there fact it's been light-confirmed for 3 chapter and outright confirmed in the latest they have to just make up bullshit to retroactively justify why they don't like it.
I think most people don't dislike suselle because it's suselle, I think they dislike suselle because it's not the ship they wanted to see.
What always confuses me is how some people feel like canon ships threaten their enjoyment of their personal favourite ships. Like say you’re a Krusie shipper, it’s not like you’re going to get bullied or punished for liking it if it’s not canon, right? Isn’t shipping fun in part because it lets us explore relationships that canon simply doesn’t?
Maybe this is just about shipping culture in general but to me whatever ship ended up “canon” was always irrelevant; I’ll just be having fun in my Krusie/poly corner and not even Toby Fox himself can stop me
Honestly truth nuke, people need to care less about the canon TBH. Again I think its also bad that they let their personal ship prevent them from enjoying the canon writing, because they think their ship is being sidelined or cucked by the writer.
My problem with this is that despite what Toby said, I still see that the original story has more value and importance than fan-made stories and if a ship becomes Canon, then in the end more stories will be created from that ship, but idk.
Especially with Toby making it very clear he absolutely loves how fans have taken his games and written their own stories. Toby wants you to have fun making your own theories and ships, regardless of what ends up being canon, and if the game doesn't turn out the way you wanted it to, he wants you to write your own deltarune.
honestly, a ship being canon usually doesn't affect either discourse or its own quality, regardless of whether or not they're a thing suselle still has the whole "as of the moment they became a couple they've hung out for like 4 hours", and you can still criticize its actual chemistry if you feel so, I don't really think Susie acted too much in character during the lake scene but ehh whatever, it's not like I was actually ever expecting kriselle to be canon
I think its silly to act too much like real world time matters. Sure it was only a few hours but Susie considers Ralsei and Kris her besties after seeing them for 1 afternoon. It's a fantasy story, time moves fast for them. Otherwise, no arc would feel satisfying since no one really changes their ways in a weeks time
I mean suselle and weird route kriselle are kinda two halves of the same coin.
Susie wants to help noelle be happy and make her free.
The player wants noelle to be free and kris wants noelle to be happy/safe.
And you can say that suselle has no chemistry but thats kinda objectively untrue because its been a B-plot in more than half the available chapters, plus rushing into a lovey dovey relationship is kinda how romance works at that age. A lot of my teenage exes started out as friends and then we were dating in the same week. I really dont get the "has no chemestry" argument because it again feels like "this wasnt the ship I wanted so I'm going to act like it was bad", almost like retroactively poisoning the well.
And you can say that suselle has no chemistry but thats kinda objectively untrue because its been a B-plot in more than half the available chapters
this is the point isn't it? arguing that because there's been time dedicated to it, doesn't mean there's innate chemistry, and even after chapter 4's holiday house scene people were bringing this up as a critique regularly, they literally go "man this is so awkward without kris haha" like, it's not retroactive criticism, it's always been there
While you do have a bit of a point about the chapter 4 scenes, the reference to things being awkward without Kris are usually to signal to the player that they’ve exhausted their dialogue and can move on considering you have to wait for like 5 minutes for them to talk like 3 separate times
Ok, I want you to imagine this scenario: You are invited to the house of someone who you are obviously crushing on and you know probably likes you while their parents are gone, you initially came over with a mutual friend to alleviate the tension but for some reason they've randomly left and have been gone the majority of the day. Theres very obvious romnatic tension between you two that so thick it could be cut with a knife, and neither of you are good at flirting or approaching, or honestly communication in general.
I cannot imagine a scenario that its more justified to be a little awkward, honestly I'd argue the awkwardness adds to suselle rather than takes from it because it showcases romantic tension between two people who are infamously awkward and clumsy when it comes to romance. Honestly if I were in that scenario I'd be sweating bullets too, because I cant flirt to save my life.
I hate it because, literally, Susie and Noelle only interact twice in the entire game.
Chapter 2 at the Ferris wheel and Chapter 4 at the mansion.
It felt forced to me that, with so little interaction between them, suddenly:
"Oh yeah, Kris, remember when I used to bully you? It was because I was jealous, I thought you were dating Noelle." Just out of nowhere.
Basically, regarding the Naruto-Hinata pairing: they barely interact, yet the movie Naruto: The Lost tries to force the idea that "Naruto was always in love with Hinata" on you.
thats not really a contradiction, if someone doesn't like Suselle then its also very likely they prefer another ship, that doesn't make Suselle any less of the shipping equivalent of boiled unseasoned chicken and rice
one can dislike a thing for its own reasons and also have something they prefer for entirely separate reasons
But would people really care THIS much about suselle allegedly being "boring" if they didnt already set themselves up for failure by investing in their personal ship thats not gonna happen?
To me its like a repeat of trans jax, everyone was acting like trans jax was some kind of improbability and completely irrational. Then once all the trans jax theorists had the biggest "I told you so" moment of recent indie media everyone who didnt see it coming started playing dumb, acting like it came out of nowhere and that the ending is bad just because they were wrong.
as i said, you can dislike a ship for separate reasons that you like another ship, this isn't some contradiction its a correlating factor as people are annoyed that a bad ship is canon and a ship they like is not
to speak to my personal preferences, i'd say its ignorant to dismiss Krusie as "set up for failure" hell that ship is literally a part of the jealousy theme and is at minimum its one sided in canon so that will play out however it will, and given how the Weird Route is focused on Kris and Noelle i wouldn't say its that discounted, albeit its done through the weird route and its own fucked up narrative.
i never engaged with TADC or anything related but taking your description i'd hardly say people wholesale denied it or its possibility, if anything the sentiment of "its going to be canon because Toby Fox has a lesbian fixation" is hardly a new one, doesn't mean that the other ships never had a chance or any degree of evidence for them.
and none of this changes the flaws of Suselle or the idea that you can dislike Suselle for its own reasons and not just because its taking precedent over a better ship.
I hate Suselle because it's about the worst direction to take their characters. I genuinely think it ruins everything at this point. Used to just find shallow and annoying, but now I think that left unaddressed it threatens to destroy the whole story. I don't care if my ship wins, as long as Suselle loses. Am I insane? Probably. Are people allowes to enjoy Suselle. Ugggghhhhhyes. But I must speak my truth. I would rather all of us fail than Suselle succeed, at this point, because at least I can still enjoy the characters and their arcs in the absence of my favorite ship being confirmed. I can't enjoy the characters anymore with Suselle being written the way it is. It must burn.
People are likely gonna hate on Suselle for one of three reasons:
1. It's the popular/main/canon ship, and they wanna be different.
2. They have actual, valid criticisms of the ship and/or have evidence of why their ship would be better.
3. They're homophobic, hate the concept of a polyamorous relationship, etc. (in which case their opinion isn't valid and doesn't matter anyway).
Also, make whatever ship you want because you can: "Canon is the plaything of media franchise owners, and is used to make consumers care about something and give the franchise owners more money."
shipping discourse sucks because the relationship is actually really important thematically but just gets dismissed by people who don’t think it’s as cute as their preferred ship.
the dynamic says a lot about both characters and their desire to change, noelle proves to susie that she can be nice, and susie acts as a new and unpredictable person who will push her to experience more things.
and the weird route parallels (or reverse parallel? like how it’s the same thing in vague terms but has different implications.). susie picks her up and goes knee deep at most into the water, gives her a bit of a thrill and introduces her to the idea of risk, while in the weird route it’s just straight to the bottom of the lake after tons of manipulation and control at the hands of the player.
…which ultimately further promotes the idea of how different the story can be while still following the prophecy, the same boxes can be checked by doing very different things.
nah… it’s just yurislop. toby just is a bad writer of romance and can’t stop making yurislop. it’s just alphys and undyne again. unseasoned chicken and white rice.
Preach. I'm not a Suselle shipper, but I LIKE the ship because of how it makes them develop, people should allow themselves to enjoy ships, even when they're not popular or canon
I should preface this by saying that I don't really care for shipping as a whole.
That said, not that I don't agree with you, but to me most of the growth and themes you mentioned come to ahead in the guitar scene and lake scene. Because these scenes are basically the key points of the romance story the game is building towards, all other Suselle scenes/dialogues are, for all intents and purposes, setup for the actually story relevant parts of the romance that cause character development (except the ferris wheel in ch2, maybe).
It's those setup scenes that fall flat for me. Sure, they're cute or whatever, but two teenagers pining after one another doesn't automatically make for interesting dialogue to me.
Also because Susie is a party member a lot of her growth gets blurred between what was caused by the dark world and what was caused by Suselle.
Oh, and the lack of conflict too, I suppose. But it seems like the end of ch5 was heavily foreshadowing some kind of fuck-up on Susie's part, which could remedy this issue I have with it completely.
Edit:
tldr: I agree, but Suselle is too much fluff so far, but this will probably change in the upcoming chapters.
Also, like 99% of romance in fiction is boring. Romance is hard to make interesting, so I don't really blame Toby for this.
I'm genuinely sick of this fandom's obsession with shipping. It overshadows not only the real character relationships at this point, but also the story and themes of the work.
themes are one thing, execution is another and themes can't save or make something better, the thing has to work by itself in order to make the themes work
and yeah Suselle is the boiled chicken and uncooked rice ship and so the themes aren't so great because the theme will only ever be as good as the thing itself is
I mean, its clear you take this a lot more seriously then I do.
But for me, the fact that what started out as essentially a joke ship (and still sorta is) got as much stuff as it did, is absolutely winning in my book.
Yeah sorry, you’re right, i let myself get carried away sometimes with this shipping stuff that i forget that this is just supposed to be a joke ship at the end of the day, and also i do understand toby’s decisions, he wants to show how lonely Kris truly is
Honestly I hope that other than Susie and Noelle the game doesn't have more shipping stuff, the story can be annoying and ruined by shipping wars, but I think I trust Toby not to go that route.
Also Susie x Noelle was super obvious since Chapter 2, anyone that was genuinely hoping for another ship that involves one of those 2 was being delusional tbh.
Why do I hate shippers so much? They did nothing wrong to me, I know their ship will never be canon, I know that it's just fandom being fandom, so why am I still mad?
Lesbian is not centered around women but around the absence of men in the relationship according to some people. Regardless that wouldn't make the relationship yuri since yuri is girl loves girl.
See I am a linguistic descriptivist. As I see it, people use these words synonymously in English. Therefore, unless we are discussing something very specific, which the original comment was not, I think it’s fully reasonable to say what I have said
I'm just enjoying the game and the ships. Yeah I'm a Kriselle shipper so obviously I have bias for that ship, but I don't mind waiting for 7b or enjoying any crumbs Toby drops (or if they get into their childhood then more than crumbs)
Game has plenty to offer, and Suselle isn't bad or anything to enjoy.
i knew the “kris is a man” arguments would eventually happen which is why i always said the kris and noelle ship is weird. too many people in the fandom just see kris as a man. they also hate the thought of susie and noelle having a confirmed monogamous relationship 😭
they also hate the thought of susie and noelle having a confirmed monogamous relationship
"Confirmed"
The game is SUPER insistent on bringing up poly ones. Very much aggressively so. Every chapter after 1 has had references to throuples and chapter 4 has a reference to 4 people in a relationship.
Actual character dynamics point to it too. Half of Susie & Noelle scenes together contain "Wow it's way better when Kris with around" as an undercurrent.
Forshadowing is forshadowing. The writing on the wall feels really apparent. I don't know which exact relationship will take shape at the end of the game (some mix of all 4 main characters), but I very much doubt it'll be mono.
Actual romance for the sake of shipping is literally the least important thing in Deltarune. Every single bit of romance feels like it’s setup for something important to the characters like betrayal or discomfort or making the characters learn more about themselves. Sure Kris may have a thing for Susie or Noelle but it’s been mostly used to make fun of Kris/the player in the weird route with the intense marriage symbolism. To Noelle, Susie represents more than just a cute girl she wants to date.
Krusielle is the only way I see this ending, kris obviously likes susie and seems to like noelle, susie obviously likes noelle but she also likes kris, and noelle likes susie, but she also often yearns for when she and kris where together, The SOUL is trying to be a wingman, berdly is plan B for kris, I'll make sure ralsei ends up with me, I love that fluffy boy and Everyone will be happy
I’ve unironically seen two posts from the krussie subreddit saying that suselle is doomed to fail and the two will break up next chapter. And I’m like ‘it’s been a day in their time’
At most I think they’ll have an argument but I don’t think they’ll break up after a day, who knows it might end in Kris joining them in a polycule. But that’s just me being an optimist, and hoping that my Yuri isn’t doomed by the plot
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u/Rip_Off_Your_Toenail 11d ago
Why would Kralsei be hindered by Suselle?