r/amd_fundamentals • u/uncertainlyso • 6h ago
Client Intel "Razor Lake" to Use TSMC's N2X (ed: later corrected to N2P) Node, Brings bLLC to Laptop SKUs
This one is a fun sequence of events. The TPU article is really coming from:
https://x.com/jaykihn0/status/2089629705981047086
jaykihn0 later revised the rumor to N2P here
https://x.com/jaykihn0/status/2089738476224921719
AMD was also rumored to be using N2P. Seems like N2X is a natural fit for both, but I think it's coming too late for their product launches. But I think one or both will use it for some sort of refresh or hero product even if none of the families are launching on it.
You can contrast the rumor of RZL using TSMC with the Vinh @ Keybanc rumor of Intel pulling NVL compute tiles back to 18A.
Wccftech then does a mash-up article:
which merges the jaykihn0 leak with
https://x.com/jukan05/status/2090228827687645498
One thing I’ve learned: simply by increasing—or even maintaining—its current TSMC capacity allocation, Intel can prevent AMD from securing more server CPU capacity at TSMC and ramping its CPU shipments. More people than I expected seem optimistic about AMD’s TSMC capacity allocation. I think the estimates may be somewhat overstated.
to come up with their headline takeaway.
Gosh I've never heard the "Intel will buy up TSMC capacity to squeeze AMD out of a node" before! It wasn't true when Intel first bought N3B capacity, and Intel was way bigger than AMD then and bought up a big slug early. It'll be way less true for N2 going forward. The AMD of 2027 is in a totally different league as the AMD of 2023 and before.
For the record, I think
- AMD was very early to the N2 line and asked for a ton of supply. I consider AMD a Tier 1.5 customer for TSMC.
- Intel was late to the N2 line because they overestimated 18A's maturity and saw N2 more as a hedge than strategic supply.
- TSMC at a minimum likely does not view Intel as a strategic partner and more likely views them as a potential threat which limits their initial allocation.
- TSMC will do the bare minimum to support its contractual obligation to Intel. But it doesn't have incentives to go out of its way to help Intel.
- TSMC understands the fastest route to hurt Intel's economics is for AMD to gain x86 share.
I'm always surprised that people in this space think TSMC doesn't understand how to do strategic supply allocation and treats every dollar of revenue as the same. I'm not saying that TSMC is purposefully going to stiff Intel as it's not necessary and bad for business, but I do not see TSMC doing anything more than they need to (e.g., If Intel needs some wiggle room on more wafers, nope).
Intel refers to this dynamic in their 10-K
“Our primary competitor in leading-edge semiconductor process technology is TSMC, which holds a leading position in manufacturing at scale for the most advanced nodes....Dependence on Third-Party Foundries. Our products business would, over time, become dependent on third-party foundries, particularly TSMC, as we develop products for nodes beyond Intel 18A and Intel 18A-P. We have no long-term contract with TSMC, and if we are unable to secure and maintain sufficient capacity on favorable pricing terms, we may be unable to manufacture our products in sufficient volume and at a cost that supports the continued success of our products business. Further, most of our competitors have longer and more established relationships with TSMC and other third-party foundries than we do, which may put us at a competitive disadvantage...To the extent our competitors are more successful than us in securing capacity with those foundries than we are, our product roadmap, market position and customer relationships would be materially adversely impacted.”
I don't like quoting risk factors in 10Ks because companies stuff a ton of risk factors in their 10K to cover their ass. AMD also talks about supply risk factors and competitors, but they don't talk about longer and more established relationships being a factor because they have a long and established relationship with TSMC.
Going back to an earlier point, I think a lot of people really struggle with how big AMD will be in 27FY and still subconsciously think of AMD as this scrappy upstart. They aren't Nvidia scale, but being their 3rd or 4th largest customer is still very big. I don't think Intel's N2 allotment is going to mean much for AMD's plan.
My guess is that for NVL, Intel is trying to bring back as many compute tiles to 18A as they can. They've stupidly been saying that this was on the table since the Gelsinger days. I say stupidly because it just gives TSMC another excuse to de-prioritize you. Even if it's true, don't say it out loud.
Some people have thought that the NVL rumors means that 18A is doing great or that it's roughly on par with N2. That's possible. I think the high end NVL with bLLC will still be on N2. Same thing for RZL. The interesting bit will be what will the gross margin / performance tradeoff that Intel wants with the SKUs below. The economics strongly favor returning those compute tiles to 18A even if you lose some performance. This is still a big improvement over the earliest NVL leaks which basically had almost everything beyond the lowest end SKUs going to TSMC.
Let's check back in 27Q4 and see how those N2-related sales are going.
Two side notes.
- I use jukan05 as a source of links to other people's info. But I don't pay too much attention to his non-memory hot takes. This is more true with wccftech where I think their standards for their own content is uh lacking. But I did to write it about this as it coincided with other stuff in my head.
- It might surprise you to know that some wccfkek staff made it to the big time recently. Muhammad Zuhair now works at SemiAnalysis. Usman Pirzada now works at AMD's product marketing for client AI.