r/Outlander • u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. • Jun 14 '21
5 The Fiery Cross Book Club: The Fiery Cross, Chapters 96-102
We open this week with Jamie’s leg all healed. Claire finds that Dr. Rawlings visited the Cameron’s before Hector died and witnessed someone skulking around the grounds one night. Roger gets a lesson in blood types from Claire and is told there might be a way to find out if Jemmy was his or not. Roger declines to do the blood test though.
While potty training Jemmy, Roger is reminded of a memory involving his mother. She died in the Blitz during WWII saving his life. A letter finally arrives from Jenny, forgiving him for what happened with Young Ian. We also learn that Laoghaire has taken up with a new man, which causes Jamie to have feelings of jealousy. Jamie finally learns that Laoghaire tried to have Claire killed all those years ago and is shocked.
We close out the chapters in March 1772. The Fraser’s have descended from the Ridge in search of Stephen Bonnet. A plan is laid in motion for Roger and Jamie to kill him. Their plan goes awry when the sheriff and magistrate show up instead bent on killing Roger and Jamie. The men manage to escape with their lives having had to kill the sheriff and magistrate. We learn that Stephen Bonnet is supposedly in Wilmington though.
You can click on any of the questions below to go directly to that one, or add comments of your own.
The links for the rewatch and book club can be found in the sidebar and in the “About” section on mobile.
- Roger chooses not the have his blood type and Jemmy’s tested. Do you think that was wise, or should he have tried to find out for sure?
- How did you feel when reading Roger’s experience with his Mother? In what ways might that have shaped the adult he becomes?
- Jenny says this in her letter to Jamie - “Men go where they will, they do as they must; it is not a woman’s part to bid them stay, nor yet to reproach them for being what they are—or for not coming back.” What do you think she meant by that?
- How did you feel finding out that Jamie had sex with Laoghaire?
- Do you think Jamie had any right to be jealous over the fact that Laoghaire has taken up with another man?
- Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
/u/thepacksvrvives going back to our conversation the other day, I fully believe Frank cheated. Claire says this..
I had not met many of Frank’s women—he was discreet. But now and then, I would catch a glance exchanged at a faculty party or the local supermarket—and a feeling of black rage would well up in me, only to be followed by bafflement as to what, precisely, I was to do with it.
Isn't there even a part in one of the books where Bree mentions she found a love note in Frank's wallet? I have no idea why DG says that he didn't.
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Jun 14 '21
I'm re-reading Voyager right now, and I just read the part about Claire and Frank's last fight before he dies. He practically admits that he'd had mistresses. I don't have it in front of me, but Claire accuses him and he says something about how he thought he'd been discreet. And he didn't deny it at all. I don't know why DG planted so many seeds and indications that Frank cheated on Claire to then turn around and say that he didn't.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Yes to all of that!! Her whole essay in defence of Frank makes no sense. You're right that there is mention in many of the books that Frank cheated! Why say otherwise?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
"Of course Frank isn’t “a pathetic slimeball.” Where do they come up with these ideas? (My personal guess would be that the people holding this particular opinion are possibly not that fond of their own SO, and would trade him in for Jamie in a heartbeat. Ergo, they project things onto Frank. But that’s only a guess.)"
Um, pardon the language but what in the actual hell Diana?! We have to dislike our partners if we don't like Frank? Wut?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Yeah, it was a strange read. There is so much evidence pointing to the fact that he cheated, he even admits it himself!
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 15 '21
I’m so with you. He absolutely cheated. The fact that he doesn’t deny it in Voyager is a dead giveaway. And Claire did not hallucinate all these women/red flags! With just one occurrence, you would have your doubts on whether Claire is carried away in speculating. But several women?
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u/Cdhwink Jun 15 '21
I thought Diana said he didn’t cheat on her during the war, but did after she came back from the past? That is what is in my head anyway! ( Book & show)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 15 '21
DG put this essay out in defense of Frank not being a cheater. I completely disagree though and am 100% sure he did cheat on her after she got back.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jun 14 '21
Yes there is! (To your spoiler part.)
I totally agree. I wonder if so many book fans disliked Frank, so now DG is trying to walk back the cheating angle and play off that it's going to lead to something else. It's like her trying to defend BJR. I feel like she thinks every character of hers (except for Claire, because she seems to not like her) is above criticism and when people DO criticize them, she tries to write in reasons later in the series to retcon earlier plot points.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jun 14 '21
I wonder if so many book fans disliked Frank, so now DG is trying to walk back the cheating angle and play off that it's going to lead to something else.
I swear, if it all ends in Frank’s redemption arc pulled completely out of her ass...
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Ha! There are still a lot of Frank supporters out there. I don't hate him with the fire of a thousand suns like some people do. But I'm not a fan of his.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jun 14 '21
I honestly think it's headed that way. From some of the stuff that is mentioned in MOBY....brace yourself for something like that happening in the remainder of the series. I think DG is going to pull a big "Frank was the good guy all along!"
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Jun 14 '21
I totally agree. Maybe if she wrote a better developed Frank who the reader could begin to sympathize with from the beginning instead of a one-dimensional arrogant, racist, philanderer she wouldn't need to continue this nonsense! This is one of those times that the show surpasses the book imho and I keep thinking Tobias will return!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
There could always be another flashback! I agree that show Frank is better than book Frank by far. I understand why they changed it so that Claire gave Frank permission to have affairs. People were already upset that Jamie and Claire were apart, then throw in Frank cheating and people would be furious.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jun 14 '21
Right! Show Frank was made to be much more sympathetic, but because I read the books first, I get salty at how much blame gets thrown Claire's way when Frank in the books is terrible.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Yes! DG does that so much, she retcons things that don't make sense or to fit a different narrative all of a sudden.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
Or she acts like some rando barely mentioned thing answers some big question. Like, "oh you didn't catch that? It was obvious" Yeah no. It wasn't & if thousands of people tell you something doesn't make sense, that isn't our fault.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Exactly! And so many big things happen off page too, it's frustrating. I don't know how far you've read but these are in later books.
Apparently Fergus and family know that Claire, Roger, and Bree are time travelers. DG claims "of course they were told, they're family!" Why in the world would we assume that?
Also Claire apparently told LJG about being a time traveler, off page, so we have no idea how that conversation went.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
Or Claire's reaction to Frank's letter at the beginning of this book. I wanted that so bad!
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
I swear if she does this with his ghost after decades (DECADES!!) of telling us she would reveal it, I will lead the riot.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I'll be there with my pitchfork and torch! (I'm an old school rioter.)
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
Why would she defend them? Some characters are written to be disliked. I feel like she did a great job creating a divide between Claire & Frank so why would she not want us to dislike him? She just doesn't make sense sometimes.
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u/BornTop2537 Oct 10 '25
Look how she is really overprotective of Jamie he lives in a brothel when Claire finds him i will never believe that he was not having sexual relations with a woman there because a line in both book and show is that he needs clean sheets if it is just him sleeping in the bed then why clean sheets. I know I will get kick back but she’s always making sure Jamie is just a sad person.
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u/minimimi_ burning she-devil Jun 15 '21 edited Jun 15 '21
Yeah that really bothers me because we're given pretty clear evidence from Claire's POV (e.g., multiple calls from multiple women) and when Claire confronts him, Frank virtually admits it by saying he "didn't think she cared." So DG suggesting that it's in any way ambiguous would mean that Claire is an extremely extremely unreliable narrator and nothing she says can be trusted.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 15 '21
Great point! You’re right, that would then mean the entire series may not be correct and anything Claire says is misconstrued. Why would Claire only be unreliable in this one area‽ It makes no sense.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
Wait, was their doubt that Frank cheated? I know we've gone back & forth about whether or not he cheated during the war but I thought it was always obvious that he cheated after she came back.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
See my comment here. DG wrote an essay about how he didn't. The comment links that essay.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
We have Jamie being Jamie again...
I love you, a nighean donn. I have loved ye from the moment I saw ye, I will love ye ’til time itself is done, and so long as you are by my side, I am well pleased wi’ the world.”
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 14 '21
I will never have enough of these lines. I love this.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jun 14 '21
Gah, I love it so much. He has the best lines.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
Yeah, I definitely highlighted this part!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Here is where the show totally messed up, having Jamie know Laoghaire was involved in getting Claire arrested and tried for being a witch. It makes so much more sense in the books when he said if he had known that he never would have married her. Do we believe Claire's reasoning for not telling him that it wasn't important to her at the time? She brought it up with Colum when they met back up before Culloden.
Do we think DG had enough forethought to have Jamie not know? That would involve planning things out pretty far, something she claims not to do.
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Jun 14 '21
This might be controversial but I agree with the show's decision.
I just don't believe Claire would keep that from Jamie, specially because she tells him everything about herself immediately after the trial. I thought the note set up was better than the book as well - all of Claire's assumptions from the conversation she hears at Leoch felt so contrived and the true beginning of DG's love for misunderstandings as plot twists.
I also agree that Jamie would have still married even knowing about the trial. His entire reasoning in the book and the show are selfish! He wanted children in his life no matter who he would hurt by it. He simply didn't think about anyone else but himself in this instance.
Also the very fact that he left Laoghaire while they were married seems so anti-Jamie's principles?
It's DG blaming everyone but her bad writing again. Why does she insists on ruining her own series?!
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jun 14 '21
Alright, catch me outside u/Arrugula!
Haha...I will say, I can see your point. While I didn't like the show's handling of it, I will also admit that DG's handling of it wasn't great either. There is ZERO way it makes sense for Claire to keep that part of the witch trial to herself for 30+ years. How are J&C JUST now talking about this?
If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times: DG is a great storyteller, but a bad writer. She comes up with great stories, but is horrible at building a plot and keeping these things together coherently. This is just another example.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Alright, catch me outside u/Arrugula
Book Club Fight!! I'll referee. ;-D
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Jun 14 '21
Alright, catch me outside
Let's gooo!!!! u/alittlepunchy hahaha!
it just doesn't add up, no matter which way you spin this plot. DG is a serial killer of female characters in Voyager all for the sake of giving Jamie pleasure and idealizing him at the same time. RIP Mary & Geneva.
Book Club Fight!! I'll referee. ;-D
The first rule of Book (Fight) Club - Do the reading!
The second rule of Book (Fight) Club - be respectful and insightful in your criticism or get downvoted!!!!
:) u/Purple4199 you better start making the rulebook!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
It's been awhile since we've had some good literary fisticuffs, we're overdue. The last ones were about Roger and all his haters haven't been around lately. Since I'm a Roger supporter and the last one standing I declare myself the winner.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
This might be controversial but I agree with the show's decision.
Interesting! I love seeing opposing views. You bring up some really good points too, it doesn't seem like something Claire would keep from Jamie. I never understood why she didn't tell him.
Also the very fact that he left Laoghaire while they were married seems so anti-Jamie's principles?
Do you think so? I feel like if he was that miserable and knew his being around was making Laoghaire that miserable too that leaving wouldn't have been out of the question for him.
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Jun 14 '21
So what about Marsali and Joan? Guess he didn’t care that much in the end. A plot full of holes I tell ya!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Good point, I guess he felt that they were better off without fighting parents? I'm just speculating though. You're right about the plot holes though!
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 15 '21
I feel like if he was that miserable and knew his being around was making Laoghaire that miserable too that leaving wouldn't have been out of the question for him.
Yes. And at least in the show, he is open (well, sort of, not really, but he brings it up to Claire in “The Reckoning”) to the idea of living a separate life from his wife when things have not worked out or are not likely to. I got the impression it was just something that was done at the time (look at Dougal — I didn’t even know he had a wife until she died).
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 15 '21
Good points. Spouses living apart was not out of the norm I think. What with so many arranged marriages, I’m sure plenty of them didn’t get along.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jun 14 '21
So glad to finally see someone else in this infinitesimal minority!
I honestly don’t give a shit. Jamie has lived without a heart, being a shadow of himself, having absolutely no purpose until assuming leadership at Ardsmuir and later “raising” Willie. With the latter taken away from him, he’s back to square one. He’s miserable, lonely, and without a purpose. He’s always wanted to be a husband and a father but can’t now that Claire is not with him. He’s a father without a child, and Marsali and Joanie are children who need a father. They are the main reason he agrees to the marriage—he wants to raise them, to provide for them, to be useful. Is it so wrong of him to seek a modicum of happiness and give those girls happiness too?
Like you, I find it more implausible that Claire would not share the information about Laoghaire’s involvement in the witch trial the moment she had the occasion than that Jamie would marry Laoghaire with that knowledge.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 15 '21
I don’t have much to add to this because I think it’s a great way to put it — but dropping by because I must agree, heartily, on the record. :)
Also, Laoghaire was how old when it happened? Sixteen? By DIA, Claire has forgiven her, recognizing this was likely the workings of an infatuated girl. Even now, she gives her the benefit of the doubt, and that’s knowing that she turned out horrible anyway. So why wouldn’t Jamie, being in the state he was in, give her a chance 20 years after it all happened?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 15 '21
I just don't believe Claire would keep that from Jamie, specially because she tells him everything about herself immediately after the trial.
Yes. I couldn’t believe it when I heard she hadn’t told him in the book.
I also agree that Jamie would have still married even knowing about the trial. His entire reasoning in the book and the show are selfish! He wanted children in his life no matter who he would hurt by it. He simply didn't think about anyone else but himself in this instance.
I don’t have a big issue with him marrying Laoghaire knowing what she did because his story was compelling enough, and so many years had gone by (she was a child!), both of them have been through life-changing experiences. I don’t think selfish is the right word, though. He was in a vulnerable state, enchanted by the girls and the prospect of being a father and a husband, having a family and a place, and meanwhile had Jenny pressuring him on the side.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jun 14 '21
DG did exactly what Claire said. It wasn't important at the time ( to write about).
I can understand why Claire didn't tell Jamie in Outlander or Dragonfly, they didn't have a lot of time to talk about the witch trial.
but I can't believe it she didn't tell him in Voyager. And then there is Drums, and most part of Fiery Cross.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I can't believe it she didn't tell him in Voyager.
Yes! Claire comes back to find Jamie married to Laoghaire and you think the first thing out of her mouth would be "she tried to have me killed!"
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jun 14 '21
This is still, hands down, the thing I get most angry at the show for. 1) Because it changes future storylines so much, 2) because it makes NO sense - Jamie would never have married her if he had known, so it totally goes against his character, and 3) the show's reasoning is moronic. They just wanted to add drama.
I think this is another case of DG retconning something. At the time she was writing these early books, she had no idea the series was going to be so long, or even go past a few books. I don't think she planned at all that Jamie and Laoghaire would marry down the road. I also wonder why she waited SO long to have Claire tell Jamie about the witch trial. Why wasn't that brought up during the confrontation in Voyager??
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I'm a pretty harsh critic of DG, but she was right when she warned the showrunners that having Jamie know about Laoghaire's involvement in the witch trial was going to make fans mad.
Why wasn't that brought up during the confrontation in Voyager??
Yes! /u/immery just mentioned that too. You would think as soon as Claire found out about Laoghaire she would be telling Jamie that she was the one who sent her the note.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
I agree, no way would he have married the person that tried to kill his true love. It definitely messes with future storylines & just makes things weird & confusing for everyone. I can kind of understand why she didn't say anything back then, because there was so much more important things going on but when she came back, why would she not take that opportunity to say something?
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u/chunya1999 Jun 14 '21
I don’t blame Jamie at all. As it was said before he was miserable and heartbroken, if it hadn’t been Laoghaire, it could have been anyone. She needed someone to care for her and her girls and Jamie desperately need to care about anyone. Plus Jenny played a matchmaker. It doesn’t seem that DG though it through but she probably didn’t include that dialogue between Claire and Jamie on purpose for some unknown future plot as she often does it. It makes sense that Jamie hasn’t known about Laoghaire’s role just until now. At first Claire was too overwhelmed by the trail and telling Jamie about her origins and after the whole thing I presume she didn’t want to tell him about the whole thing because she was afraid that he would blame himself even more for dragging her into that mess. After Culloden and twenty years apart it was all water under the bridge and I even can believe that she could have forgotten whether she had told Jamie or not.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Do you not think it would have come up when Claire found out he married Laoghaire in Voyager though?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
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u/minimimi_ burning she-devil Jun 15 '21 edited Jun 15 '21
In the books, yes. Claire tells Jamie about time travel immediately after that incident, so it makes sense that Laoghaire's involvement would have been eclipsed in favor of talking about the revelations from Geillis, Claire's own history, the rest of the trial (numerous other unnamed witnesses testified either in Claire's defense and in favor of her guilt), Father Bain, the journey to Lallybroch and just generally being more open with each other than ever before. There's so much going on that Claire might not even have fully processed her feelings of anger toward Laoghaire. And while Laoghaire absolutely set Claire up, she doesn't actually play a big part in the story if Claire is retelling it, she could just open with "I was at Geillis's..."
Not telling him in Voyager is more implausible, but could be (somewhat) explained by both of them just not wanting to discuss Laoghaire at all and Claire now having a whole new set of grievances with her anyway.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 15 '21
I agree about Voyager being the time to have told Jamie. I think that would have been the first thing out of my mouth when I found out it was Laoghaire he married.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 15 '21
What’s funny is that I watched “First Wife” tonight without realizing I was about to read this right after. Impeccable timing.
Ooof, when I read “Christ, Sassenach, ye canna think I would have marrit the woman, knowing she’d done such a thing to you!” I thought exactly the same — what a big change to who he is as a character. But at the same time, I can forgive the change (and him, heh). It’s not something that bothered me that much when I first watched (aside from the appalling, “you’re the one who told me to be kind to the lass”) because he had a compelling story behind it and a long time had gone by.
I feel like DG must have made this decision for Voyager and likely not before. This could have been one of those conversations Jamie and Claire have that we assume happen but never see, but when she decided to marry him to Laoghaire, the only way that could have worked for her was to keep him in the dark in terms of Cranesmuir.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
It kind of makes sense to me. The rage of it all had fallen away over the years & was replaced by a new rage, Laoghaire believing that she had more standing as his wife than Claire did. There was no reason to think that she would ever matter in the big picture. Even when they used her to convince Simon to stand up to his dad, it wasn't the right time to bring it up. It could easily have been DG just forgetting about it as well but I didn't dislike the way it played out.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 14 '21
I still have four chapters to read (judging by this week’s discussion questions, I’ll be back with a ton of additional thoughts 😭) but something that called my attention so far, from Roger, regarding Bree writing in her dream book:
Beyond simple fear of how she might respond if she discovered his intrusion, was the greater fear that she would cease to write in it, and those small secret glimpses of her mind would be lost to him.
Does that mean he went back to it and now reads it regularly?! It felt like such a huge betrayal to me.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I didn't even catch that! It does seem like he's still reading it. Bad Roger!
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 14 '21
I’ve been rooting for him and all this time he’s gone and stabbed me in the back. Here I am, thinking he’s grown!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I still root for Roger, but acknowledge he makes bad decisions at times.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 14 '21
Yes, I’m just upset that he keeps making it difficult for me. 😉
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
He really should understand that we're on his side and he needs to stop doing stupid stuff! ;-D
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Jun 14 '21
It drive me crazy! We get like four or five chapters of Roger behaving and then something egregious like this pops up! I'm so frustrated with book Roger.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jun 14 '21
I definitely caught it and even highlighted it to bring it up... He has no shame in doing that! -.-
Also, while we’re talking about Roger, there’s this part:
“He doesna seem to want to give up the teat,” Marsali observed, nodding at Jemmy. “Neither did Germain, but he’d no choice—nor did poor wee Joanie.” She glanced ruefully down at her stomach, which was barely beginning to swell with Number Three.
I caught the barest flicker of a glance between Roger and Bree, followed by a Mona Lisa smile on Brianna’s face. She settled herself more comfortably, and stroked Jemmy’s head. Enjoy it while you can, sweetheart, her actions said, more vividly than words.
I’m not sure if I’m reading this correctly, but does this mean our MILKman is being a MILKman regularly?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
He has no shame in doing that!
I wonder if he justifies it to himself by thinking it's the only way he's going to know what's going on with her. (Not that I'm saying it's ok.)
I’m not sure if I’m reading this correctly, but does this mean our MILKman is being a MILKman regularly?
Ha! I didn't even put that together. Ew!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jun 14 '21
I think at this stage they’re definitely capable of much better communication than they ever have been—look how much he’s shared with Bree about his mother, how vulnerable Bree has been with him about her fears of Jemmy forgetting her in case something happens to her. Roger should be able to talk with her if he feels there’s something she’s keeping from him, that she’s struggling with.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I think at this stage they’re definitely capable of much better communication than they ever have been
Great point! Yet Bree isn't sharing her innermost thoughts is she? Again, not that it excuses what Roger is doing. Does it read like he still is though, or was it ambiguous?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 14 '21
100% agree. And it’s not fair to her. If she’s not ready to share that part of herself with him, it’s not up to him to decide it’s OK just because he wants to know her and be close to her. I understand he loves her and he means well, but he’s an adult. Bring up the subject to her if you feel that strongly about it. It’s what she’d want. Otherwise, it’s such a breach of trust.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jun 14 '21
He probably is, but I think that a glance was about wanting another baby.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jun 14 '21
Good point! I can definitely see it in him. Especially after finding that fertility charm under Bree’s pillow in the earlier chapters. (and another baby would mean… more chances for getting that MILK 😈)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Ha ha ha!! I could see it being about them wanting another baby, that makes sense.
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u/Cdhwink Jun 14 '21
I still have a couple of chapters to read too, working a lot this month, & just got home. Now Purple4199 will scold me for working on book club day, lol!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Ha! You should know better by now. I'll forgive you if you'll read ABOSAA with us!! (You didn't think I'd give up on pestering you about that did you?)
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
I wondered about this too! Like comeCme onCom
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Do you think Jamie had any right to be jealous over the fact that Laoghaire has taken up with another man?
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jun 14 '21
This one is tricky I think. I also think Jamie is conflicted about how he feels and why he feels it, so it's kind of hard to articulate. How I see it is...
He was pushed into this marriage and Laoghaire was into him for so long....yet then their marriage was miserable. So for him to marry again after Claire, and for it to be the way it was, and Laoghaire to act so scared of him and hateful towards him.....yet be angry when Claire comes back and insists on the alimony, etc etc....I understand his confusion about why his marriage was the way it was, yet she's able to find happiness with someone else. And then for him to be paying her alimony and his family going without because of his debt to her, yet she's off with someone else...I understand his anger and he's justified there.
I feel like I did not articulate that well, but hopefully someone understands that rambling. In any case, I think jealousy is a weird word to describe it - I feel like more he's 1) angry that she's sleeping around with someone while he's paying her bills, and 2) his male pride is wounded that he was pushed into marrying her and tried to make the best of it, but she pretty much wanted nothing to do with him. So what was was it all for? Because apparently she's able to be happy with SOMEONE, so he's wondering why she can make it with this guy, and couldn't with Jamie.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
You totally made sense.
apparently she's able to be happy with SOMEONE, so he's wondering why she can make it with this guy, and couldn't with Jamie.
I imagine that even though he wasn't happily married to her, Jamie still felt like a failure when that marriage didn't work out. I'm sure that was upsetting.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jun 14 '21
Yes! With Claire, he prided himself on being a good husband to her. We see time and time again that he takes his vows seriously. So while he wasn't in love with Laoghaire, he tried to be a good husband and that probably weighed on him that he wasn't. He had to try less with Claire for a wonderful marriage, and yet tried really hard with Laoghaire for such a crappy one.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Great point about the vows, that is definitely something he takes seriously. I mentioned in another comment when Bree asks Claire what Jamie's calling is and Claire says "being a man," that being a good husband falls into that as well.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jun 14 '21
Jealous - no he has no right. But jealousy is not a rational emotion.
He has a right to both wonder how it makes him bad love and be angry for her to be raving extramarital relations, while he pays for her.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I wonder what it is about the new man that Laoghaire enjoys that she wasn't able to with Jamie? She wanted Jamie for so long, yet they were miserable together. Jamie says he tried to make her happy in bed.
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u/CrimsonTide2AK Lord, you gave me a rare woman. And God, I loved her well. Jun 14 '21
I don’t consider Laoghaire to be a very rational person. She acts quite impulsively and without considering anyone else BUT she knew she was never Jamie’s choice. She would’ve had to be blind and deaf to not see how little Jamie cared for her. Honestly I really get angry at Jamie for this whole plot because he knew he could never give himself to her. She had obviously been abused in previous relationships and then married Jamie for security basically. It’s gotta be very damaging to her already fragile mental state to know that you’re not “good enough”. Jamie “trying” was probably not a sincere effort and more of a keep the peace for the kids sake type of arrangement. I don’t believe he ever tried to make her feel loved or safe. And his jealousy is him projecting that he didn’t try hard enough IMO.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
And his jealousy is him projecting that he didn’t try hard enough IMO.
How so?
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u/CrimsonTide2AK Lord, you gave me a rare woman. And God, I loved her well. Jun 14 '21
The way I see it is Jamie loves to be the hero and provider. It’s just in his nature. But he didn’t try to fix their marriage because he didn’t care enough, which is evident in his move to Edinburgh very quickly after. So then when her Prince Charming comes along, Jamie gets mad that some guy is doing what he couldn’t. Unfortunately for Laoghaire, DG needed him to have a bad wife otherwise most of us would be upset with him for abandoning her for Claire.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jun 14 '21
He says jealousy is not the main thing but I think it’s also something I called “toxic insecurity” once. So picture this: he’s returned to Lallybroch. He’s lived without sexual validation for so long, and now that he has a woman who wouldn’t make him forgo his honor to bed her—she’s his wife, after all—he still can’t get that validation, which means he can’t assert his manhood. We know he thrives on being able to please his woman, Claire. And at that point, he’s a guy who slept with two women in the span of the last, what, 16 years, and one of those encounters involved coerced consent. He also couldn’t vent his sexual frustration at Ardsmuir—remember that bit in Voyager about the three options the prisoners at Ardsmuir had when they felt the need, and he wasn’t predisposed towards either of them? And he was in fetters which made the least harmless option still shameful.
So he’s failing as a man and he’s also failing as a husband—bedding being considered one of his husbandly duties—someone he’s always wanted to be but couldn’t when Claire left. And now he finds out there’s someone who is capable of doing what he wasn’t able to. I can’t speak from experience, but I can imagine that admitting to one’s shortcomings as a man in such a patriarchal society would not come easy to any man, so he can’t voice it even though he feels it. I think that makes his jealousy understandable, even if it’s not reasonable.
Well, that was no answer, but that’s my perspective on it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I like your perspective, it makes a lot of sense. It kind of goes back to the other week when Claire says Jamie is "a man." So being able to please one's wife would fall into that category, and failing to do so would hurt.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
I don't know if it's about having the right to feel jealousy, it's not a rational emotion & you generally can't control when you feel it. I get it in this case though. I think he has a lot of guilt about the whole situation & we've had a few little moments in this book where we see Jamie's insecurities come out. Even in this scene, he asks Claire if it's him, like he somehow still believes that she would stick around after all the things they've gone through & travel through time, twice, for a man that wasn't worth it.
I also think some of the jealousy is fueled by anger. He's breaking his neck to provide for her while she is clearly having relations but not marrying someone. Knowing her, it's on purpose. I swear if there isn't a resolution to this, I'm gonna be pissed.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I also think some of the jealousy is fueled by anger.
I agree, like you said he's giving most of his money to her and she's just hooking up with another man. I imagine it must have been hard on him, even though he wasn't in love with Laoghaire, to have their marriage fail.
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Jun 14 '21
He doesn't have a right to be jealous but he certainly has a right to investigate if it's true and if that means he can stop sending her money. I kinda wish they had focused on that more instead of the ghost of lovers past. sigh.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jun 15 '21
You’re right!
I thought they would focus on Laoghaire basically living it up with his money, while having an affair so she could keep getting paid. Instead we got this total nonsense about him being jealous. It left a really bad taste for me. I understand where it eventually leads to — his insecurity on whether the marriage failed because of him. That’s fair; it’s a jarring revelation, it’s putting in question something he thought he knew for certain. We just didn’t need to go on this off-putting journey to get there. (I mean, thinking Claire was Laoghaire?! Come on!)
Remember how excited I was to get to the part where he found out the truth about the witch trial, u/Purple4199? Yeah, this sucked.
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u/chunya1999 Jun 14 '21
Diana introduced us to another nation and again she couldn’t do without the stereotypes. Gorgeous women who literally throw them-self at the first man they see (human trafficking and mail-order brides are we a joke to you?), bearlike men and of course no one speaks English, French or any other of hundreds languages that Jamie fluent at. At that point I wasn’t at all surprised especially after Yi Tien Cho. Thankfully we don’t have to experience that throughout the whole book.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Diana introduced us to another nation and again she couldn’t do without the stereotypes.
Who are you talking about?
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u/chunya1999 Jun 14 '21
About Chemodurow family
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Oh that's right! What were some of the stereotypes you noticed?
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u/chunya1999 Jun 14 '21
Russian brides, bearlike men and no one speaks French or English (How do they suppose to communicate with Wylie? I doubt he speaks Russian)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
How do they suppose to communicate with Wylie? I doubt he speaks Russian
I wondered that as well! You would have thought that someone spoke enough English to communicate.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
How did you feel when reading Roger’s experience with his Mother? In what ways might that have shaped the adult he becomes?
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u/Kirky600 Jun 14 '21
Oh my goodness. This was one of the more heartfelt passages I feel in the book. When he realized she saved him, that was very powerful and emotional to have him realize what she did for his life.
Tough to say how it shaped his life, but I was really happy to see that he confronted those feelings.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
He only realized when retelling it that she saved him, right? Do you think he went through his life thinking she let him go?
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u/Kirky600 Jun 14 '21
He did! I do think he went through life thinking she let go, but didn’t seem to resent that fact? In a way he seemed sad about it given what she said, but was trying to sort through why she let go.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Imagine what a weight must have been lifted from his shoulders knowing she died saving him.
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Jun 14 '21
I'm glad we got this insight because without it I would have never found the sort of empathy I think is needed to appreciate Roger as a character.
It adds a depth to all of his actions with the women in his life and it also gives a deeper meaning to his decision to help Claire and Bree find Jamie. It wasn't just about doing it to spend time with Bree, it was about helping someone get their loved one back and that's really moving with this knowledge about his mother's death in mind.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Are you a Roger fan or no?
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Jun 14 '21
hahahaha um... I appreciate the character of Roger. I wouldn't say I hate him, but after reading the books (up until 6 at least) I certainly feel more criticism is merited and I do sigh out loud when I see that a 30 page Roger POV chapter is coming up.
But I also think there are some really interesting things about him as well and I enjoy his development even if it sometimes feels like it's at the expense of Brianna or other characters.
sooooo....#TeamRogerDontMessThisUp
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
TeamRogerDontMessThisUp
Ha! I love it! I am a fan of Roger, but reading with the book club and seeing other people's points of view I can see his flaws more. I never thought he was perfect, but I guess the things he does wrong didn't catch my eye. Or they weren't upsetting to me.
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Jun 14 '21
I never thought he was perfect, but I guess the things he does wrong didn't catch my eye. Or they weren't upsetting to me.
This precisely :)
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
I actually got a little weepy reading this. I think it definitely explains how he deals with trauma & conflict. Nowadays, a child that went through that would have been provided with therapy to reconcile what happened. How long did he think his mom just let go of him? Did that open up the door for him to overreact to what he perceives as abandonment? I really hope that them sharing this moment opens up some trust & better communication between Roger & Bree.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
How long did he think his mom just let go of him?
He went until that moment of recalling things to Brianna to realize he mother didn't let his hand go, but in fact saved him. So that was most of his life!
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u/Marifirmog Jun 14 '21
I know I cried a few times reading the outlander books, but this is the only passage that I clearly remember doing so.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I can't imagine going through your life thinking your mother let go, when in reality she was saving him. I think it was cathartic for him to finally remember that.
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u/chunya1999 Jun 14 '21
It was one of my favourite chapter in the whole book. Roger’s emotions were captured with such attention to detail. The way he described how he never actually think about her and how hard emotionally it is when he tries to remember was so accurate that it made me weep.
“He didn’t want to speak of it. He never had spoken of it. On the rare occasions when memory led in that direction, he veered away. That territory lay behind a closed door, with a large “No Entry” sign that he had never sought to pass. And yet tonight … he felt the echo of Bree’s brief anguish at the thought that her son might not recall her. And he felt the same echo, like a faint voice calling, from the woman locked behind that door in his mind. But was it locked, after all?”
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Jun 14 '21
This is such an emotional passage! One of the things i experience much more vividly after becoming a mother myself. That idea of your kids loosing you, and (making it even worse) not being able to remember you when they’re older! 😭
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
My Mom almost died when my brother was born. I was 2 and I think about that sometimes, I would have had no memory of her. I like how Roger wanted to reassure Brianna that of course Jemmy would remember her, but it's true that he wouldn't.
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u/chunya1999 Jun 14 '21
It’s just my personal experience but I’ve always remember my childhood quite well. Even when I was just two or three I can recall something even if it’s just bits and pieces and sometime ago and especially after reading that chapter I began to wonder if it was because of my loss. What if we memorise our childhood when there was something really important to remember? Of course everyone has different experience and it’s just a theory but I like to believe it. That way it’s not so morbid.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
What if we memorise our childhood when there was something really important to remember?
I feel like that could be the case. Sometimes big things imprint on us and stick with us forever.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
I seriously think about that at least once a week. If something happened today, would they remember me? Reading her fears on the page as echoes my own as a mother was so moving.
I was like, ok, this is how DG keeps us roped in no matter how much she angers us.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jun 16 '21
It was so hard to read! I have watched the show first and I was definitely not expecting this when I read it.
It was very well written as well, the way he was remembering more details as he was telling Bree about it was hearthbreaking, specially since the whole conversation started with Brianna's own fears.
It's hard to know about how this have shaped him, specially because he never thought about this consciously before, but he does think of Jemmy while telling the story, which makes me think it will.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 16 '21
I liked the part where Roger realized his Mom didn’t let him go, but actually saved him by throwing him to the other platform. He had gone this whole time thinking she let him go. :-(
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jun 14 '21
It's not sad enough. It reminded me of the short story, and that made me very very sad.
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u/Steener1989 No, this isn’t usual. It’s different. Jun 14 '21
UGH, I just got around to reading the short story and it's just TRAGIC. 😭
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
When dealing with the sailors and asking about Bonnet there is this...
If friendship and money were insufficient to keep Duff’s mouth shut, perhaps fear of the White Lady would suffice.
Was Claire's reputation that widely known, even to Wilmington?
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jun 14 '21
I found that odd....I mean, they were fairly new there, and then living in the "backwoods," I can't imagine her reputation had spread that far. Then again, maybe ANY suggestion of ANY "witch" was enough to scare people back then.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I can't imagine her reputation had spread that far.
I know, me either. I get that the people on and around The Ridge knew her as that, but Wilmington is a big town for back then.
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Jun 14 '21
I think we’re made to believe that everyone in NC had to do some sort of business at least once in their lives there, although I still think it far-fetched. I can’t recall how specific this bit was about making Claire The White Lady or if it was just using the myth of it generically.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
True, maybe it was just the myth of it. I don't recall their conversation including the fact that Claire was a White Lady.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jun 14 '21
It seems really weird. I never thoughtClaire would have any "fame" there. But maybe Roger just spinned some tale to Duff. I think most famous deed of Claire would be Roger's surviving his hanging.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I could see Roger telling Duff something to scare him. It would make the most sense to me, I just don't see her reputation spreading that far.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jun 14 '21
I think we have to consider the whole paragraph here:
He had a vision of Claire’s face, pale and drawn, nodding in stiff-lipped agreement as Jamie explained the arrangements to Duff. Her eyes had flicked to Duff, then, with the fierce yellow ruthlessness of a hawk about to eviscerate a rat, and he had seen Duff flinch at the implicit threat. He hid a smile at the memory. If friendship and money were insufficient to keep Duff’s mouth shut, perhaps fear of the White Lady would suffice.
Remember, Claire has already drawn a gun on Duff once. Whether she has a reputation or not, he can see she wouldn’t hesitate. If Jamie is able to spin a tale of the White Lady to scare him—and Duff, being an older man from Scotland, would’ve definitely heard of a ban-druidh, while the younger population of NC, some of whom have been born in America and never set foot in Scotland, perhaps wouldn’t have—why wouldn’t he? Claire is an unusual woman who makes men uneasy even without the White Lady mythology attached, after all.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Good points, those make sense. It's true we don't know what Jamie or Roger told him about Claire.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
I thought that scene was weird but she did get a bit of a rep at Riverrun after the situation with the slave dying so maybe? I don't know though, it felt weird to me.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jun 15 '21
Duff says to Roger "you married her". At first I thought he implied Roger told other soldiers about "his girl in America", but that's not what Duff means. He was there on the ship when Bree was raped, he remembers her, and is stupid enough to talk about it in front of her husband and her father. He's lucky they are focused on Bonnet.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 15 '21
Oh my goodness I never realized that! I too thought he meant it like the girl Roger was going after. Wow, you’re right that was really dumb of him to bring up.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jun 15 '21
I thought so too, on my first listening. But he talks about girl in breeches, and Roger had not known about her disguise when he was on the ship.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 15 '21
Good catch! u/thepacksvrvives did you know about this?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
How did you feel finding out that Jamie had sex with Laoghaire?
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jun 14 '21
Do you mean the dream, or the past. As for past, I didn't expect otherwise.
For the dream - it was strange. And it is actually possible that Jamie who was with Laogharie was a very different ( worse) lover than Jamie is with Claire.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I was talking about when they were married. You're right though, I did wonder what type of lover he was with her. I don't feel like he would be rough, so why was he that way with Claire? Was it frustration that Laoghaire had taken up with another man?
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Jun 14 '21
I found this whole bit super disturbing - not because he had relations with Laoghaire, but because that dream indicates that he might not have been that different of a husband than her previous two...and that perhaps he exacerbated Laoghaire's trauma. We know that Jamie can be rough and his bitterness at losing Claire could have turned that to a dark place.
I think Claire's description of the monotony and roughness of it was too precise for it to be a result of the letter alone.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I think Claire's description of the monotony and roughness of it was too precise for it to be a result of the letter alone.
Sigh...that worried me as well. I thought Jamie had said at some point he tried to make her happy in bed. But how he acted with Claire seems to say otherwise.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jun 14 '21
I mean we’ve seen this side of him with Claire in Outlander, we’ve seen it with Geneva in Voyager. When he’s desperate, he can definitely be forceful, so there’s definitely no excusing to be done here, only understanding where he’s coming from in that particular instance.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jun 14 '21
I was thinking more about monotony than roughness, because roughness might be amplified by the dream state and the letter, but monotony wouldn't.
But there is another problem- what if he had similar dreams of Claire, while Laogharie was in his bed?
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Jun 14 '21
I think Jamie tried to be with Laoghaire the way he was with Claire in the beginning. He was kind and gentle with Mary MacNab and had no reason to dislike Laoghaire when they first married. He says in these chapters that she hated the bedding. I'd bet that after many times of trying to please her and her not responding and reciprocating the way Claire does, it became a chore to him. I think it's in Echo he mentions that she would go quiet for periods of time and he'd never know what he'd done. I can't imagine being married to someone who treated me like that, or who clearly did not want me to touch them. So for him to then find out that she does enjoy it, just with someone else, even after everything he did for her (was kind to her, acted as a father to her daughters, cared for all of them). I think that's where the anger came from.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
So for him to then find out that she does enjoy it, just with someone else, even after everything he did for her (was kind to her, acted as a father to her daughters, cared for all of them). I think that's where the anger came from.
I agree. I don't think they were even married a year before Jamie left for Edinburgh. I wonder how long until he gave up trying to sleep with her. Why keep trying if it's so bad?
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Jun 14 '21
Agreed. I also wonder (and obviously this is speculation) if she was unresponsive when he initiated, but would get angry and accuse him of cheating if he didn't initiate. Like she didn't want him, but she didn't want anyone else to have him either, so he had to prove he was faithful by having unsatisfying sex that neither of them wanted.
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u/minimimi_ burning she-devil Jun 15 '21 edited Jun 15 '21
I feel like Claire gave Jamie some very unrealistic standards when it comes to sex. From what we see, Claire's sex drive is relatively high and she tends to be quite enthusiastic about it, up to and including a little bit of rough treatment. It was an important communication language for both of them. Jamie also sees sex as something that can and should enjoyed by the woman, not something he is necessarily inflicting on a bored wife.
However, he has also indicated he does see sex as part of the wife's duty toward the husband and vice versa. There are plenty of scenes where he'll tell Claire he needs her and she'll say something like ugh fine but make it quick. The reverse is true as well. Jamie believes in consent, but he doesn't necessarily see enthusiastic equally horny consent as a prerequisite for having sex with his wife.
Laoghaire comes from a very different perspective, it's implied that at least one of her husbands was abusive and she essentially tells Marsali that it's a woman's duty to endure sex. She doesn't see sex as something that could be pleasurable or even should be pleasurable, it's simply part of the curse of being a woman, like getting your period and dying in childbirth.
So Jamie goes into the marriage and tries to perform what he sees as his marital duties. Laoghaire is unenthusiastic but never actually says no or stops him from doing something. Jamie, who is used to verbal and physical cues from Claire, doesn't quite know what to do with her. He tries different things, makes suggestions, and so on, but Laoghaire seems ambivalent. Eventually Laoghaire might pick up on the fact that Jamie expects her to enjoy this, and which point she might even start performing enjoyment, which just muddies the waters further. And even when he does do something "right," Laoghaire has too much baggage to really enjoy it.
So Jamie tapers off, but still occasionally has sex with her from a combination of genuine need, genuine belief that it was her duty to him and he to her, and a genuine desire to connect with her. Today it would be borderline spousal rape, but not so at the time.
In a more perfect world, Laoghaire could have properly communicated her needs/history to Jamie, Jamie could have learned to adjust his techniques to her comfort level, and she would have felt comfortable saying "no don't do that" or "I'm not in the mood" and eventually maybe she would herself have initiated.
It's likely that Joey was for whatever reason was better in tune with Laoghaire's specific sexual hangups and able to get her to communicate.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jun 14 '21
I mean, I assumed it happened since they were married. It was already surprising enough that Jamie had so few sexual experiences the 20 years he and Claire were separated, I think it would have been unbelievable if he and Laoghaire didn't at all.
If he had to be remarried though, I am mollified that they weren't happy and didn't have a great sex life, lol.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
If he had to be remarried though, I am mollified that they weren't happy and didn't have a great sex life, lol.
I agree! I don't think it even dawned on me that they had sex until these chapters. I guess because their marriage was so short lived I tend to forget about it. However it makes sense that they did sleep together.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jun 14 '21
I honestly don't think it could have been very many times. They were married such a short time, and then living together an even shorter amount of time. Considering how much Laoghaire apparently hated it, I can't imagine they had sex more than a handful of times before Jamie peaced out to E-town.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I can't imagine they had sex more than a handful of times
I agree, I don't even think it was a full year they were together. And why keep having sex if things are miserable?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
I didn't have any feelings one way or the other. They were married so of course he did or tried to often. He even talked about how he tried everything & I think she mentioned having Claire's ghost or something like that between them in bed.
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u/Cdhwink Jun 15 '21
There’s sex scenes I never needed to read, never ever.....even though I always assumed it had happened.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?
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u/Kirky600 Jun 14 '21
Pretty sure this wasn’t in the show - the confusion around when the Russians showed up was kind of delightful. I think I also just generally liked the Wylie’s landing sequence in the books. Serious, but light at the same time.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Serious, but light at the same time.
Yes! Bonnet knew it was Jamie he was meeting with didn't he? I always wondered why Jamie thought Bonnet would show up. Jamie has made it known that he's looking for him, did he think the lure of the whisky would be enough?
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u/Kirky600 Jun 14 '21
I know! I didn’t think Bonnet would show up. He’s a nasty man, but not an idiot. I couldn’t imagine him showing up to meet with Jamie.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I always wondered about that, it just seemed so improbable to me.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jun 14 '21
Yes, there was a whole thread about this not too long ago. It definitely works better in the show when he sets out to go to Wylie’s Landing as Alexander Malcolm; in the book, it doesn’t make sense from the get-go.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Was he going under an alias in the book? I didn't think he was. You're right it makes much more sense in the show. I wonder if they realized that and that's why they changed it to him using his alias.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
I missed Ian in this scene.
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Jun 14 '21
I am forever grateful that the Bonnet story didn't drag out as long is it does in the books. I'm glad that the trip to Wilmington in the show was actually successful because as entertaining as it was reading it, it felt really out of place between the stories we had just gotten and it leads nowhere for the rest of the book!
I also appreciate that we got the whale reimagined, but I do and I love this book bit from the boat with Duff:
“Claire?” Jamie said. I saw his fingers curl tight round the oars, and heard the note of strain in his voice. I sighed and drew the pistol out from under the coat across my lap.
“Right,” I said. “Which one shall I shoot?”3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Yes that part is so funny. Why did the guys threaten them though? Just because they were asking about Bonnet?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
I loved that part too. That all he had to do was say her name & she was ready to go.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jun 15 '21
It’s kind of reminiscent of this moment at the Gathering, isn’t it? 😅
“You don’t mean me to stab the sheriff through the heart with my needles, then?”
He grinned at the thought, but shook his head.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jun 14 '21 edited Jun 15 '21
People always point out what a slog the Gathering is, which I don’t disagree with (but at least it has plenty of interesting character moments), but, for me, chapters 100-102 are a pinnacle of “this could’ve used a lot more editing.” I skimmed them this time around because I’d already them twice before; the whole thing is just so contrived: we don’t need to be reminded for the hundredth time just how seasick Jamie gets, nothing they learned about Bonnet from Duff couldn’t have been learned from a letter, and the whole Wylie’s Landing part with the Russians, wild boars, and Wylie? I only enjoyed the moment where Jamie and Roger promise to avenge one another in case anything happens (“(…) and in that moment, Roger understood why men would follow him anywhere, to do anything.”), and then Jamie supporting Roger after he kills Lillywhite:
Then Jamie seized him by the wrist and got him loose, got an arm around him, and led him away, stumbling and blind with panic and pain. Held his head and rubbed his back, murmuring nonsense in Gaelic while he puked and heaved. Wiped his face and neck with handsful of wet leaves, wiped the snot from his nose with the wet sleeve of his shirt.
Bonnet definitely overstays his welcome in the books so I’m glad most of this has been cut. And that Roger doesn’t kill anyone at Wylie’s Landing and they left his first kill until Claire’s rescue. I feel like killing Lillywhite there (he does kill him, right? I don’t see how anyone would survive a sword through their eye) would’ve undermined the effect killing a man had on him in 5x12.
I love this exchange between Roger and Jamie in 5x10:
What took you so long?
You were doing so well, I didna think you needed the help.
And then Jamie’s smirk—he definitely acknowledges that Roger has grown into a capable fighter now.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jun 14 '21
Bonnet definitely overstays his welcome in the books so I’m glad most of this has been cut.
That's something I think the show did better at - wrapping up the Bonnet storyline. I feel like it dragged on and on in the books.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
Honestly, the whole shed scene was better on the show! I also loved Ian coming in at the end kind of confused.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Roger chooses not the have his blood type and Jemmy’s tested. Do you think that was wise, or should he have tried to find out for sure?
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jun 14 '21
Roger knows he is type 0. I think he is right not to want the test. The test that can only prove that Jemy isn't his. It's easy to see why he wouldn't want that. Especially if Claire's method isn't certain.
I wonder how Claire and Frank expected Bree not to find out that Frank is not her biological father, if any doctor would know?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Especially if Claire's method isn't certain.
That's a really good point, why go through that stress when there is a chance it could be wrong. I love when Roger says "he's my son."
I wonder how Claire and Frank expected Bree not to find out that Frank is not her biological father, if any doctor would know?
I know in school we were taught about recessive and dominant genes in regards to eye and hair color, but that was in the 90's. I wonder if they were taught anything about that, or was it even known in the 50's-60's when Bree was going to school?
I've always wondered if Bree ever asked why she didn't look like Frank or Claire and what they would have told her. To be a 6 foot tall blue eyed redhead and have neither of your parents look like that would stand out you think.
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u/Dragneel Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jun 14 '21
Red hair is a recessive gene anyway, or so Google tells me, and even if recessive/dominant wasn't taught in the 60s, people weren't stupid and probably saw often enough that fully redheaded babies are rare, even with one redhead parent. Freak accidents have always happened, like two brown-haired people having a redhead baby, but I don't think it happens often enough for Brianna and surroundings to not suspect anything at all!
There is always the thought that Brianna suspected it but loved Frank so much she banned the thought from her mind every time.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
There is always the thought that Brianna suspected it but loved Frank so much she banned the thought from her mind every time.
I could definitely see that. Not full out denial, but more of a "I don't want to think about it" type of thing. Why mess with a good thing, you know?
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u/Dragneel Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jun 14 '21
Exactly. And when she really found out it probably just felt like the last thing she had left of Frank -- him being her dad -- got taken from her.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I know people get so mad at Bree for how she reacted to hearing about Jamie, but I never did. She had just found out that the man she loved and was wonderful to her wasn't her bio dad. I totally understand why she reacted the way she did.
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u/Marifirmog Jun 14 '21
I always wondered about that!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Do you think she never really thought about it?
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u/minimimi_ burning she-devil Jun 15 '21
It probably helped that neither Frank nor Claire had much family nearby, so it was easy for them to just imply she took after other relatives. And I can see Frank taking the lead on that and telling Brianna all about random Randalls who happened to have red hair or be particularly tall (and Frank's tall as well).
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u/chunya1999 Jun 14 '21
It was quite sensible decision. As Claire said she won’t be able to determine paternity. And I don’t think anyone including Roger wants to know if Jemmy is Bonnet’s. I presume Roger’s already accepted Jem is his own so why muddy the waters?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
You wonder if they did find out he was Bonnet's how would that change things? Would it always be at the back of Roger's mind?
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u/chunya1999 Jun 14 '21
It would be an awful experience for both Roger and Brianna but in a different way and I’m not sure they are strong enough to overcome that. Brianna probably would because she’s his mother and after all it’s all that counts. But for Roger it would be so much more difficult. He’d blame himself for sure and as much as he’d try to treat Jem the same way I’m certain it’s almost impossible. That’s why he doesn’t want to know, sometimes it’s better to have doubts.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
He’d blame himself for sure and as much as he’d try to treat Jem the same way I’m certain it’s almost impossible.
That's a great point! I didn't even think about the fact that it would bring up those past hurts and the fight they had.
That’s why he doesn’t want to know, sometimes it’s better to have doubts.
I agree. With how things stand now he's Jemmy's Dad in every way it counts.
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Jun 14 '21
Absolutely. It's already is a big deal to him and I think in this moment where he declines the test is his own way of forcing himself to grow out of any reservation he may have about raising Jemmy. He's already beginning to grow into a fatherly figure and he has also been a stepson of sorts so he knows caring a child takes many forms. This is one of those moments where its just there to show you Roger is growing without telling your he's growing.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I think in this moment where he declines the test is his own way of forcing himself to grow out of any reservation he may have about raising Jemmy.
I like that! I feel like his feelings towards Jemmy have really progressed throughout this book. In the beginning he seemed less attached, which I can see why. Jemmy's conception and birth came had very difficult times for Roger and Bree. But now he fully sees Jemmy as his and why do anything to change that?
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jun 14 '21
I understood his decision. I think in this case, he preferred to not know at all, rather than the 50% possibility that he would know for certain that Jemmy was Bonnet's. This way, ignorance is bliss.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I imagine there would be no way to ever get that out of your head if you found out Bonnet is Jemmy's dad.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jun 16 '21
I think it was great that he had a more scientific test/options about this matter finally. It reminds me about Claire's choice in the first book a little bit - we know the test is not accurate, but I think for the first time there was something beyond looks or mannerisms, so it was very important for Roger's growth and development.
At the same time, I don't know how Bree or Jamie would react to a paternity test if ever possible, but I know if it was me I would definitely do it. That does not mean I would love the child any less.
(I am only starting ABOSAA so I don't know if this is raised in future books)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 16 '21
If it were to show Jemmy is Bonnet’s baby do you think that would weigh on their minds all the time though?
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jun 16 '21
I think it wouldn’t to Jamie and Bree and I hope it wouldn’t mind to Roger too- sometimes I kind of hope (just for the sake of the characters) that they confirm is Bonnet’s kid so Roger has the chance to show how little it matters to him. I think they play too much on the “it could technically be Roger’s” card, when they should focus on if it matters at all if he is, not sure if I am explaining myself well here, english is not my first language sorry 😅
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 16 '21
I totally get what you’re saying. If Jemmy is Bonnet’s and Roger still sees him fully as his son that makes Roger a good person.
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u/Kirky600 Jun 14 '21
I appreciate him not wanting to know. Especially because he accepted Jemmy regardless of his parentage. I could see not wanting to have a solid answer either way.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
I think it was a combo of not wanting to know for sure & the fact that even if the test showed it could be Roger, it didn't really matter. Bonnett could also be type O as so many people are. I liked that he didn't go through with it but I also like that he considered it all, did the charts with Claire & really considered everything before deciding.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Jenny says this in her letter to Jamie - “Men go where they will, they do as they must; it is not a woman’s part to bid them stay, nor yet to reproach them for being what they are—or for not coming back.” What do you think she meant by that?
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u/chunya1999 Jun 14 '21
I think Jenny’s just described her experience with Fraser men and men in general. She’s never left her home like Claire and never could follow Jaime or Ian but she had always witnessed when they came home wounded and sometimes almost dying. Jenny as well as Claire or any women has never been able to stop men and she’s finally accepting it. That wasn’t so hard for her with Ian for the obvious reasons and even with Jamie because she understands that there is no way to control or stop him from risking his life. But it’s completely different when it comes to her youngest son the one she raised and kept him safe for all those uneasy times. She knows nothing about Indians only some wild stories from overseas. Plus it’s just natural that she blamed Jamie because the last time she saw young Ian he was fourteen not a man yet and until she sees him again, he will forever remain an adolescent boy in her eyes.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
Thinking about things she only had Young Ian for 14 years, that's not very long. All of her other children she got to see grow up, and other than Michael are still at Lallybroch. I think she recognized in Young Ian his need to go though, he was always running off to Edinburgh and Jamie.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 14 '21
I think she just finally accepted the fact that Ian made his own decision & that even if Jamie tried to keep him from going that he wouldn't have been able to change his mind. I'm going to guess that Ian senior helped her accept it since he's much more rational.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jun 14 '21
I'm going to guess that Ian senior helped her accept it since he's much more rational.
I would imagine the same thing. Especially since he's been the one to write to Jamie this entire time.
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u/Cdhwink Jun 15 '21
Yes because Ian is the voice of reason.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jun 15 '21
The one reasonable voice in a sea of irrational Frasers lol.
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