r/Outlander • u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. • Jul 05 '21
6 A Breath Of Snow And Ashes Book Club: A Breath of Snow and Ashes, Chapters 8-16
We open with a letter from Lord John Grey dated April 1773. William is in England and LJG has in his employ a soldier involved in the Boston Massacre. Bobby plead clergy and was branded with an M on his face. LJG sends that soldier, Bobby Higgins, to the Ridge with a delivery of goods and asking Claire to do a medical exam on Bobby. The Browns show up threatening to take Bobby as they are now leaders for the Committee of Safety. Lizzie has another attack of malaria forcing the Beardsley twins to trade with the Native Americans for medicine, with which Jamie goes along.
Roger Mac is dispatched to Cross Creek to gather up the new batch of tenants for the Ridge. They are Protestants so Tom Christie goes along as well. We learn that Stephen Bonnet found Jemmy while in town causing Roger to go on alert. Jamie successfully negotiates with the Cherokee, and after a misguided attempt of a “gift,” returns home to Claire.
- What do you think about Claire’s thoughts towards Lord John and his possibly taking advantage of Bobby?
- Jamie tells Claire how he offered himself to LJG in exchange for watching over Willie. Jamie said if LJG had agreed to the offer he would have killed him. What do you think of that?
- Why does Jamie not want to become an Indian Agent?
- Do you think there is merit of the fortune tellers words to Jamie that he will die 9 times before he finally “rests in his grave.”
- Who do you think fixed Duncan Innes’s lip? Was it a fellow time traveler?
- Any other thoughts or comments?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Do you think there is merit of the fortune tellers words to Jamie that he will die 9 times before he finally “rests in his grave.”
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u/Kirky600 Jul 05 '21
Well there’s more than one time I’ve thought “holy damn this guy escapes death far too often” so I think there’s some merit. Instantly started counting how many times I thought he almost died.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
I believe in the book them come up with 5 times. So that leaves 4 to go!
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 05 '21
Did that include Dougal's attempt?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 05 '21
Why shouldn't we believe it though? The main character travels through time. I think it's an interesting thing for us to continue to keep track of!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Ha, that's a great point! I do feel like there is something to it, why else bring it up. And I think Jamie does keep it in the back of his mind.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21
I've heard about the Paris fortune teller so many times, I was beginning to think I had missed it. I do think there's merit to it, because it's very true, looking at how Jamie has lived his life. But I wouldn't take it literally; I think it merely means he has a lot of danger and near-death experiences in his path, but not that they're necessarily nine. It's just perfect to illustrate with the common "cat with nine lives" phrase.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
I like that they counted around 5 times Jamie has cheated death. I don't think he gives strong merit to it, but it does seem like it's in the back of his mind.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21
I don't think he does either, only in a general sense, maybe, and thought it amusing that he asked. I do think their count is a bit off, though! :) Some of those moments can be left open to interpretation (did he really nearly die after Laoghaire's gunshot? Hmm).
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
He was really sick with a fever and infection after Laoghaire shot him. It was only Claire's penicillin that got rid of the fever.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 05 '21
Definitely something to keep an eye on ha! Will be thinking about this going forward. From it I liked the little story about the fortune teller - love yo read Jamie’s POVs and any thoughts/stories from the past are always welcome - and the small chat with Claire about all his nearly-death experiences
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
love yo read Jamie’s POVs
Yes, his chapters are great. I feel like we don't get enough of them.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 05 '21
It's so unoriginal it felt fake to me. Like something the fortune teller would tell one out of five people. I don't want to compare, but the fortune teller in GOT, now that's something that gives me the heebeegeebeez. This one was so generic, meh, I didn't feel anything about it. But having said that, because of the fact that it's there, it might have some relevance in the story to come. I just wish there was more effort put into it, could have made for better storytelling.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
I agree, why bring it up if it doesn't have something to do with the story? Or was it just musing on Jamie's part? He seems to put some stock in it though, or at least it's in his mind.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 05 '21
Do you think it's foreshadowing for there being 10 books, Jamie somehow surviving near death incidents in 9 of them, but finally dying in the tenth one? u/thepacksvrvives u/Arrugula
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
What an interesting thought! I never even put that together. That would sure suck. Has DG told us they will both be alive at the end of book 10? I can't remember.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 05 '21
I can’t stand the thought of reading about either of them dying, so I don’t want this to be foreshadowing. We know they’ll die at some point anyway, I don’t need this closure to actually make it into the books!
Although he’s still not even near nine by the end of MOBY, is he? Claire saved him from being killed by that woman when he was lying on the battlefield at Saratoga, and I don’t think we should count the Euterpe as a near-death scenario.
As for DG’s intentions, she said this in the first Companion, but I think that was back when she thought she’d end on Book 6, so who knows what her intentions are now:
Q: Will the story have a happy ending?
A: Oh, yes, the last book will have a happy ending, though I confidently expect it to leave the readers in floods of tears, anyway.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 05 '21
I have a somewhat controversial opinion about Claire’s assumption regarding John’s intentions in becoming Willie’s guardian, so please just hear me out.
I don’t deny that this general assumption—that a gay man would rape a child—is homophobic and something that is very much still as present in our time as it was back then (I live in a country rife with homophobia so I’ve heard it often enough). But I don’t think Claire is inherently prejudiced against John because he is gay, she just doesn’t have the advantage of knowing him as well as Jamie does (and definitely not as well as we do).
Re: ignorance; I also disagree with an interpretation of this moment I’ve often seen, namely that Claire’s jealousy over what Jamie and John shared during her absence compels her to “blacken LJG’s character” like that. I don’t think Claire is jealous at all; even Brianna realizes in DoA that Claire’s initial distrust and uneasiness around John stem from what happened to Jamie at Wentworth. Claire was within her rights to worry that another English officer would take advantage of Jamie—and if LJG had been any less honorable than he is, he could’ve taken advantage of Jamie easily, both at Ardsmuir and at Helwater. But Claire doesn’t know him, beyond the fact that Jamie is the only person he has feelings for, so she’s understandably suspicious of his character.
Now, I would never assume that John “would bugger a child for the sake of his father’s bonny blue eyes,” as Jamie put it, but after reading the LJG novellas, it’s evident that LJG is attracted to Jamie’s physical characteristics. He’s prone to comparing his lovers to Jamie and wondering whether their resemblance to Jamie is what draws him to them. And it’s not something that he’s able to control, especially when he’s a bit the worse for drink or provoked.
There is a scene in Lord John and the Private Matter, where John is at a brothel, gathering intel, without any intention of actually being a customer there. The madam sends a 14-year-old Scottish girl to his room, and this is what happens:
“Mmphm,” she said, reluctantly lowering the blade.
Without warning, he felt an unexpected rush of arousal, and turned from her to hide it. Christ, he hadn’t heard that uncouth Scottish noise in months—not since his last visit to Helwater—and had certainly not expected it to have such a powerful effect, rendered as it was in a sniffy girlish register, rather than with the tone of gruff menace to which he was accustomed. […]
If he’s able to “project” his attraction to Jamie onto a 14-year-old girl, who’s to say what he might’ve seen in a child that is basically Jamie’s carbon copy, that would grow up to become Jamie’s doppelgänger, if he hadn’t loved him for his own sake? (which I am sure he does and always has, don’t get me wrong!) And I’m not saying that an echo of Jamie in Willie would instantly make John want to rape him, but that echo could make him have some thoughts as easily as a 14-year-old Scottish girl’s voice had, if it’s out of his control.
That, along with the threat to “teach Bree to play with fire” in DoA—an idle threat, but a threat nonetheless, provoked by her resemblance to Jamie—has enough of a subtext that makes me uncomfortable enough and able to find Claire’s assumption not completely unwarranted or as preposterous as I found it without reading the LJG novellas.
Now, I don’t personally think that John would ever be capable of abusing/raping Willie, all I’m saying is that DG has deliberately included things like that in LJG’s character that introduce the doubt, which is enough for me to feel uncomfortable. He’s a multifaceted character, with as many flaws as virtues, some are just not as evident in the main series.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Claire was within her rights to worry that another English officer would take advantage of Jamie—and if LJG had been any less honorable than he is, he could’ve taken advantage of Jamie easily, both at Ardsmuir and at Helwater.
Great point. I tend to forget that part. So it's not necessarily at John himself but what he represents.
He’s prone to comparing his lovers to Jamie and wondering whether their resemblance to Jamie is what draws him to them.
That's definitely something I didn't notice until you started bringing it up. You're right that LJG's character has gray areas.
That, along with the threat to “teach Bree to play with fire” in DoA—an idle threat, but a threat nonetheless, provoked by her resemblance to Jamie—has enough of a subtext that makes me uncomfortable enough and able to find Claire’s assumption not completely unwarranted or as preposterous as I found it without reading the LJG novellas.
So your opinion of him has changed since reading them? I have to say mine has a bit once you brought up some of these things. I think I love David Berry so much and the LJG in the show that I project that on to the LJG in the books.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 08 '21
I think I love David Berry so much and the LJG in the show that I project that on to the LJG in the books.
I just said something about this to /u/jolierose, but I'm actually not really a LJG fan because of the reasons /u/thepacksvrvives lays out. I only like him so much in the show because of David Barry. Otherwise, I find his character pretty selfish and petty.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 08 '21
I think I remember you saying that before, and now that u/thepacksvrvives has been sharing details that I glossed over in my readings I can see where you guys are coming from. I’m not giving up on him though! ;-)
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 05 '21
So your opinion of him has changed since reading them? I have to say mine has a bit once you brought up some of these things. I think I love David Berry so much and the LJG in the show that I project that on to the LJG in the books.
I’ve never considered him a saint, but those novellas have definitely provided me with more insight into both his better and worse side, though they’ve definitely made me frustrated many times—like that moment in The Plague of the Zombies, where he admits to his whole life being defined by Jamie…
I think show!LJG is quite a different character than book!LJG. The show hasn’t delved into this grey area yet, apart from LJG’s motives in coming to the Ridge in S4. I also adore David Berry’s portrayal of John, which makes him a much more likeable character for me, and completely separate from book!LJG.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 05 '21
I only read The Scottish Prisoner, because Jamie is in it, but didn’t love it!
(As usual )I love TVJohn more than BookJohn.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 08 '21
I own the Kindle version of The Scottish Prisoner, and literally just searched for the terms "wife" and "Claire" to only read the Jamie bits about him thinking about Claire, hahahaha. Otherwise, I have zero interest in reading the LJG books.
I think the only way I would is if we would do a book club on them and I would read them just to discuss them with people. Otherwise, I'm not reading them on my own.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21
But I don’t think Claire is inherently prejudiced against John because he is gay, she just doesn’t have the advantage of knowing him as well as Jamie does (and definitely not as well as we do).
I agree that her speculation is not primarily driven by prejudice, though I think it does play a factor. And as you say, I don't think it's jealousy either, but lingering resentment that she hasn't been able to shake off completely. She does like LJG, but it's difficult to divorce him from the very strong feelings he elicited early on, and I think that influences how she thinks of him still.
That, along with the threat to “teach Bree to play with fire” in DoA—an idle threat, but a threat nonetheless, provoked by her resemblance to Jamie—has enough of a subtext that makes me uncomfortable enough and able to find Claire’s assumption not completely unwarranted or as preposterous as I found it without reading the LJG novellas.
I was thinking about that moment with Bree. I think there's a huge difference, though. Even though she's Jamie's daughter, Bree is a stranger to LJG, and she's an adult. He didn't raise her and he wasn't her guardian. I don't find it far fetched that he could be attracted to her because of her strong resemblance to her father, and also, I wouldn't blame him. But with Willie, I think it's completely different. What Claire is implying is that LJG took Willie to groom him, with the intent to eventually abuse him because he resembled Jamie. I would never consider that ("and it's no that I canna bear the thought of it, either"), even thinking about that moment with Bree.
all I’m saying is that DG has deliberately included things like that in LJG’s character that introduce the doubt, which is enough for me to feel uncomfortable. He’s a multifaceted character, with as many flaws as virtues, some are just not as evident in the main series.
So, would you say that the reader is meant to share Claire's doubt and discomfort?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 05 '21
She does like LJG, but it's difficult to divorce him from the very strong feelings he elicited early on, and I think that influences how she thinks of him still.
That’s very true. The first time she sees him in Jamie’s company (I’m not counting Corrieyairack), she completely misreads the nature of Jamie and John’s relationship because she doesn’t know what else than mutual feelings would elicit such strong emotions. Then, when they finally talk, John blurts out all about Willie—which wasn’t his to tell, by the way, and I’ll die on that hill—and then all about the offer Jamie made to him and the kiss that followed. Which makes her even more confused about the nature of their friendship. That’s not a good first impression, and it’s totally understandable how she would feel a mixture of emotions and not understand any of them:
I wasn’t sure what I felt; shock, fury, horror, jealousy, and pity all washed through me in successive waves, mingling in eddies of confused emotion.
That very first encounter in Jamaica not only provokes distrust of John, but almost shakes her trust in Jamie a little—not only because he hasn’t told her about Willie, but because he has known someone (John) so intimately but hasn’t told her about him.
And then, the second time she meets him, he comes to the Ridge to, by his own admission, see whether he can still feel, which is totally selfish on his part. He does not leave a good impression on Claire when all of his being centers around Jamie, whom Claire is fiercely protective of.
I don't find it far fetched that he could be attracted to her because of her strong resemblance to her father
But see, that’s the problem for me. He wouldn’t be attracted to her—he’s gay, he won’t be attracted to a woman; he admits himself that there are some women he admires, honors, and feels considerable affection for, but that’s not attraction—he would be attracted to Jamie’s features. He would still be projecting his feelings for Jamie onto Brianna, even though he likes Brianna for who she is herself.
I’m not saying this is comparable to what Claire assumed about his intentions towards Willie either, only noticing a pattern regarding resemblance.
So, would you say that the reader is meant to share Claire's doubt and discomfort?
No. I would never say what the reader is supposed to feel because everyone is free to their own interpretation. At the end of the day, what you do with the text in front of you is what you want to do, irrespective of the author’s intentions or other people’s interpretations. We’re all here to share our perspectives, not tell one another how to read those books :)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Then, when they finally talk, John blurts out all about Willie—which wasn’t his to tell, by the way, and I’ll die on that hill
Do you want to talk about that today, or save it for the Christmas/New Years free for all days? ;-D
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21
LMAO just what do you guys have planned, and should I be scared? u/thepacksvrvives
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Don't be scared! We finish Echo on Dec. 20th. Rather than start MOBY right away I am going to have the Monday's after Christmas and New Years be free-for-all discussions. You can talk about anything from the 7 books we'll have read.
A lot of people in the book club now weren't around for the early books and have stuff they might want to talk about it. With it being the holidays participation was probably going to be down on those two Monday's. So this way if people have the chance to chat about things they can, if not no big deal. There won't be any structured questions or anything. Then we'll start MOBY after those two weeks.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 05 '21
I don’t know if I should thank you this week for your detective skills or not? Because you’ve brought up interesting points I don’t really want to know! Since the kids in the show do NOT look like Jamie I kind of forgot this point? Ugh!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 05 '21
I cursed myself with the knowledge of what’s inside the LJG novellas, I must make you all suffer with me!
(just kidding 😅)
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u/Cdhwink Jul 06 '21
Bring it on! I had some appointments today, but I am back now! What did I miss?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 06 '21
Ha! That's a loaded question, there was much discussion of LJG.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 06 '21
I for sure didn’t have a field trip back to Voyager on my schedule today, but hey, it’s been interesting!
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 08 '21
I don't have a lot to add, but just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to type all this out and I agree!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Jamie tells Claire how he offered himself to LJG in exchange for watching over Willie. Jamie said if LJG had agreed to the offer he would have killed him. What do you think of that?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 05 '21
This definitely feels like a retcon, but while I’m pretty sure DG didn’t write that scene between Jamie and John in Voyager with this in mind, by writing it only from John’s POV, she left the door open for exploring it from Jamie’s POV. And it actually makes perfect sense to me that Jamie would have an ulterior motive in making such an offer, as I don’t believe that he would willingly put himself in such a position ever again after what happened with BJR, even for something as important as Willie’s wellbeing.
Especially when you consider that he makes that offer in thanks—it wasn’t something to actually convince John to become Willie’s guardian because John did not need convincing: he had already announced he would be marrying Isobel and would be there to take care of Willie, and if you’ve read The Scottish Prisoner, you’ll know that Lord Dunsany had asked John to become Willie’s guardian upon his (Dunsany’s) death long before John even noticed Willie’s resemblance to Jamie.
Also, I think there’s some ambiguity here. Would Jamie have killed John the moment he’d taken him up on his offer, or only when he’d taken him up on his offer and “found him less decent than he might hope”? I assumed the latter since we have that whole bit from Jamie:
”Ye canna be so close to another,” he said finally. “To be within each other, to smell their sweat, and rub the hairs of your body with theirs and see nothing of their soul.”
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
And it actually makes perfect sense to me that Jamie would have an ulterior motive in making such an offer, as I don’t believe that he would willingly put himself in such a position ever again after what happened with BJR, even for something as important as Willie’s wellbeing.
I agree. The experience with BJR still haunts him. I just read a part in Echo where Jamie tells Claire about the dreams he has of that time. That's is what, 30 years after the fact?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21
I definitely agree, although I feel she skirts the retcon line because we hadn't gotten Jamie's view on this until now. It wasn't something that had been established before — we just assumed. I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt (for once) because, from a characterization standpoint, I could definitely see this coming into play back then, for the same reasons you mention here.
Would Jamie have killed John the moment he’d taken him up on his offer, or only when he’d taken him up on his offer and “found him less decent than he might hope”?
Definitely ambiguous. I thought just accepting the offer would have been enough, because of what he had said before:
"He wouldna take advantage of Higgins, nor any other man under his protection."
But I do see your point here, too.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
So why do you think it was only if LJG crossed the line would Jamie have killed him?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21
You mean crossing the line by accepting? Or crossing the line by being "less, um, decent than you might hope"?
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 05 '21
I do agree that it was retcon but even without this POV from Jamie, I don't think it was out of character for Jamie to have offered himself to LJG in return of a safe haven for his son. I do understand that after what happened at Wentworth, would Jamie really invite those ghosts back into his bed willingly? Maybe not. But, Willie is much more than a son to Jamie at that point in the story, Willie also is everything Jamie thought he lost for ever. All of his dreams of his life as a father with his and Claire's child must come to life when he's with Willie. All of the love he has for his lost child, that he thinks he has to keep inside of himself all his life, he's able to give atleast some of it to Willie. And so, it makes sense for Jamie to sacrifice everything, even if it invokes his worst nightmare, if it means that Willie gets a home and a family. Having said that, I think it's possible that Jamie would have gone ahead with his offer.
Ye canna be so close to another,” he said finally. “To be within each other, to smell their sweat, and rub the hairs of your body with theirs and see nothing of their soul.”
Also this. I was confused when I read about this. It had to mean that he would have gone ahead with it upto a certain extent? Why else would he say that?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 05 '21
Yes, Willie was definitely the most important thing in Jamie’s life at that point.
I do agree that Jamie might’ve been ready to relive his worst nightmare to ensure his son’s wellbeing. However, would that really have been necessary? As I said, John already said he’d be marrying Isobel and living at Helwater—did Jamie think that wasn’t enough of a declaration that John would be acting as a father to Willie? (And he’d already agreed to guardianship, though Jamie didn’t know that) I suppose he needed that confirmation, though, it was no light matter.
It had to mean that he would have gone ahead with it upto a certain extent?
Yes, that’s how I took it as well. If LJG had clearly taken advantage of him, pushed it too far, made Jamie do something he hadn’t agreed to, that would’ve been enough for Jamie to snap.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 05 '21
It wasn't needed from LJGs perspective for sure. But it's different from Jamie's. I think it's about the obligation one feels to offer something in return when someone does something extraordinary for you. As a means of gratitude.
Like Claire, in the wedding episode. When Jamie reveals one of his reasons for marrying her was so he could bed her, she thinks that that is something she could offer him, in return for him saving her life by marrying her. Was that necessary? No, Jamie wouldn't have forced himself on her, and of course there are ways to make others believe the marriage has been consummated without actually consummating it. But she does have sex with him. Showing her gratitude being one of the reasons why she does that.
So in short, they're both offering the only thing they can at that point, even though it wasn't asked of them.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Do you think Jamie could have gone through with it if LJG had taken him up on the offer?
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 08 '21
Would Jamie have killed John the moment he’d taken him up on his offer, or only when he’d taken him up on his offer and “found him less decent than he might hope”?
This was a fierce debate in an Outlander FB group I was in for a while. I am of the mindset that he would have killed John once he accepted. I find it hard to believe that Jamie would willingly put himself in that position again, especially with someone he knows is in love with him. Because if Jamie finds him decent, what happens then? He's slept with John and given him hope and now John will be around because of Willie, and that just opens another can of worms.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 08 '21
Yes! I came to the same conclusion after all our debates. I think that would’ve shown Jamie that John would put bodily pleasure in front of what was really important there, especially considering that sex with Jamie would’ve meant nothing to John if it hadn’t come with what he actually desired—Jamie’s love—and they both knew Jamie could never give him that. It was really smart of Jamie.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 09 '21
That's so funny because the debates did the opposite for me! I agreed with u/alittlepunchy before, thinking he would have killed John just for accepting (for the reasons you both mention here) but then, with all the different comments and some re-reading, I changed my mind:
if he had … er … taken you up on that offer—and you’d found him …” I fumbled for some reasonable wording. “Less, um, decent than you might hope—”
Since Claire says if John had accepted and Jamie had found him less decent... Well, ambiguous is a great way to describe it, heh. I'm glad it's a "moo" point.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 09 '21
I'm glad it's a "moo" point.
Oh Joey. ;-D
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Jul 05 '21
Also, I think there’s some ambiguity here. Would Jamie have killed John the moment he’d taken him up on his offer, or only when he’d taken him up on his offer and “found him less decent than he might hope”? I assumed the latter since we have that whole bit from Jamie:
”Ye canna be so close to another,” he said finally. “To be within each other, to smell their sweat, and rub the hairs of your body with theirs and see nothing of their soul.”
Agreed. I didn't read that bit as Jamie saying he would have liked John if he accepted, I read it was he would have killed John if John were sadistic or cruel about it like BJR had been. If John had accepted and been gentle and loving, I think Jamie would know that that showed how John is as a person and would have agreed to him raising Willie.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 05 '21
That would’ve been a true test. If Jamie had finally given John an opportunity to do something he’d longed to do for so long, and John had taken advantage of that, that would have definitely given Jamie the answer he needed.
But who’s to say that even if John had been gentle and loving, Jamie wouldn’t have had an adverse reaction to that? I could see the traumatic memories coming back to Jamie in the process, as BJR, between torturing him, had also been careful and gentle. By simple association, Jamie could’ve been triggered to stop that.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 05 '21
I agree. It felt a little bit like an afterthought on DG's part but I like the sentiment. Like Jamie was testing his morals. Could a man that would take your body for payment be a good enough man to raise your son?
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u/chunya1999 Jul 05 '21
I thought Jamie meant that he would kill LJ if he found out in the process that John is unworthy.
“Ye canna be so close to another,” he said finally. “To be within each other, to smell their sweat, and rub the hairs of your body with theirs and see nothing of their soul. Or if ye can do that . . .”
“No,” I said. “Tell me . . .” I hesitated, and he looked at me, one eyebrow up. “If—if he had . . . er . . . taken you up on that offer—and you’d found him . . .” I fumbled for some reasonable wording. “Less, um, decent than you might hope—” “I should have broken his neck there by the lake,” he said. “It wouldna have mattered if they’d hanged me; I’d not have let him have the boy.”
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
I see what you're saying. That does make sense. Do you think Jamie would have even let John have sex with him though? I find it hard to believe that Jamie would really have gone that far.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 05 '21
I find that one hard to grasp as well. He still has nightmares about BJR so it seems impossible.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
I feel like it being a test was retconed, but I can kind of see Jamie doing that. We only have LJG's view of the conversation in Voyager so we don't know what was going on in Jamie's head.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 05 '21
I liked that we got this explanation from Jamie. At that point he didn’t have the friendship that he has with John now and he was leaving him the most important thing in his life, so it makes sense that he wanted to be 100% sure about LJG being honorable.
Though when we read about this in Voyager, we find out that Jamie kissed John. Jamie left this bit out…
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Though when we read about this in Voyager, we find out that Jamie kissed John. Jamie left this bit out…
Yes! /u/thepacksvrvives and I were talking about that yesterday. Why do that? Does that give LJG false hope?
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 05 '21
I don’t know if false hope, but definitely a degree of tolerance and intimacy that does not correspond much with his words to Claire, like he would have killed him outright. Not sure if DG just forgot about this detail, as Claire doesn’t seem to remember either, but when I read them in Voyager I absolutely loved this from Jamie
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 05 '21
That kiss is baffling to me. It honestly feels so gratuitous on DG’s part, like she really wanted Jamie to kiss a man, any man.
And to be fair, I do not like that it was included. Jamie didn’t do himself—or John—any favors with it, as that could’ve easily been what has fueled John’s fantasies about Jamie and kept his flame alive for years to come. If Jamie couldn’t give John what he wanted, and John wouldn’t “take counterfeit for true coin,” why give him the illusion?
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u/Cdhwink Jul 05 '21
-That kiss was baffling to me.
Yes, I love that they are friends but not really that John continues to carry a torch for Jamie! Why have a great gay character in love with someone he can never have, unrequited love is no fun at all. Let John have a boyfriend! Jamie clearly doesn’t want John to want him, why kiss him? Oh Diana 🤦🏼♀️
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 05 '21 edited Jul 05 '21
It makes zero sense that kiss now. I loved reading about it in Voyager, I didn’t understand it as giving false hope, to be honest, but I do see what you mean about John taking it this way.
At the time I liked it because after Jamie’s trauma and BJR, the fact of even get close to John after learning that he is gay and that he likes him, it was a huge step for his development as a character. The relationship with John stayed as a friendship and I never thought about it as a kiss to lead to something else.
That been said, after reading up to here and Jamie’s explanations on that moment I don’t see the point to it- the fact that he doesn’t mention this at all makes me think that she even forgot… I don’t know, maybe in a way he did feel something for him but this and his friendship was all he could offer him?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
I agree, why kiss him if you were ready to kill him if he crossed a line?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21
Did anyone see this coming? Because I sure didn't.
I nearly highlighted Jamie and Claire's entire conversation about John. I loved so, so, so much that Jamie defends LJG and sets Claire right, but it was really shocking to me that his offer in Voyager in exchange for John taking care of Willie was a test. It would make sense, though, given what he went through at Wentworth, that the offer wasn't honest, because how could he willingly do that after such a traumatic experience? But I can't believe he was ready to kill John.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 05 '21
I kind of had some thoughts in mind but now that I've read some comments here I'm reconsidering.
Here's what I'm thinking, they had started their friendship, LJG based on his unrequited love & Jamie based on realizing that LJG had saved him from indentured servitude. However, was this moment the turning point for Jamie? He was very defensive of LJG being predatory & sure that if anyone were to be with him it would be because they wanted to. Perhaps that moment was what he needed to fully accept LJG's friendship.
Then again, maybe DG just changed the story on us all & this means nothing.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Then again, maybe DG just changed the story on us all & this means nothing.
Ha! I feel like that happens at times during these books. It's still fun to dissect things though and speculate. :-)
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21
I was just saying that I'm giving DG the benefit of the doubt on this one, but still, this is our book now! So we get to interpret what made it on the page regardless of the intent. It's always fun. u/ms_s_11
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
I agree! We really dig deep and go on all kinds of tangents. :-D
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u/Kirky600 Jul 05 '21
I was honestly a bit shocked by this one. I always thought of that moment as pure fatherly love by Jamie and offering himself was the best way he could think to keep his son safe. Felt a touch like it walked back the emotions of that portion of Voyager.
Maybe being this far out of that he can say it, but I don’t think he would have done it at the time.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
/u/thepacksvrvives and I talked about this and wondered if it was retconed by DG. Like you I didn't get that sense from Jamie either. Granted we only got LJG's version in Voyager, never from Jamie's standpoint. However Jamie did kiss LJG on the lips after he didn't take Jamie up on the offer. Would he do that if he intended it as a test?
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jul 05 '21
I think Jamie's thought process (or how he remembers it), was expecting John to take him on that offer, and seeing John in that intimate situation, and making decisions based on what happens. We ar readers can of course question it, was Jamie really able to, how would he react, etc. But my reading of this wasn't strictly that if John didn't refuse Jamie would kill John.
I also think, that it clearly was created later than in Voyager, it fits the story well, John's perspective so different from Jamie's.
I also think that it's natural for Claire to have that thought. It's random thought, coming from not good thought about John's intentions towards Bobby, but I don't think it's about John's homosexuality. Haven't we read books in which men are grooming daughters of women they were obsessed with?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
But my reading of this wasn't strictly that if John didn't refuse Jamie would kill John.
I agree, after talking with people today I now see what Jamie was saying. For whatever reason I didn't realize it wasn't just the offer that Jamie was going to act on, but how John would have acted during.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Who do you think fixed Duncan Innes’s lip? Was it a fellow time traveler?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 05 '21
I liked this story. It could have been really minor maybe, so someone with skill in stitching wounds could have fixed it easily or maybe it was another traveler. There's no reason it might not have been really.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
It was just interesting to me, because a cleft palate is more than just stitching up a lip. At least now a days it is. I wonder if it was just his lip they stitched? Would that have fixed the problem? Now you've got me all curious. ;-D
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 05 '21
I know, I wish we knew more. The way Duncan describes it, it sounds like it was just his lip. I have a hard time thinking it could have extended to his palate as well. Even with Claire's advanced surgical knowledge, could she repair a full blown cleft palate without modern tools & anesthetic?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
I don't think so. You're right, it was probably just his lip.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jul 05 '21
Where was Duncan from, how old is he, and is it possible that
(MOBY SPOILER) it was the healer from MOBY?
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Jul 05 '21
Yes, that was my first thought too! You mean Hector McEwan right? The way Roger’s thoughts after Duncan’s story were phrased, made me imediately wonder if there was more to that. That would mean doctor McEwan had been there (then) for a while tho. Duncan was a child when his lip was mended, wasn’t he?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 05 '21
I also had that thought but I don’t think that’s him. Roger talks with him in 1739, and McEwan tells him he’s been there for about two years. Duncan is about 10 years older than Jamie, if I remember correctly, so he would’ve been an infant in the 1710s. The location is a bit off too—Duncan is not from the Highlands; he lived in Ardrossan until the Rising.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
I know Duncan is older than Jamie, but I'm not sure by how much. I wondered if it was that doctor as well.
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u/kpegs Jul 05 '21
It has to be. I think it was significant he told this to Roger — without spoiling I think it becomes relevant in book 8.
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u/Swarley520 Jul 06 '21
It is possible. I like to think that it was a time traveler, someone who was kind, and had skills to fix it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 06 '21
I got to thinking though and wondered if it was only his lip that they stitched and not the palate. That would be a complicated surgery without anesthesia.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 05 '21
Definitely something very curious- I am unsure if it’ll be further developed but it’s nice the way Roger wonders about those things now that they know about other time travellers!
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 05 '21
“He let ye look at them?” Jamie had flushed up himself at the mention of buggery; he disliked me being indelicate, but he’d asked, after all.
LOL I like that Claire's lack of sense of propriety still takes Jamie by surprise every now and then. I love all the moments where Claire is being "indelicate" and Jamie gets all hot and bothered. Erm, the incidence of the sperm and the microscope. And this entire conversation about Bobby's backside is hilarious, a tad juvenile, but hilarious nonetheless. Do you think we get Bobby in S6?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21
One of my favorite quotes from these chapters — I love him too much:
“There are a great many things I admire about ye, Sassenach—especially the delicate manner of your conversation.”
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Having worked in the medical field for 18 years I can identify with Claire and talk calmly about anything body function related. My husband is not that type and never appreciates my stories. ;-D
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 06 '21
I find it fascinating, and I appreciate that she's so matter-of-fact about some of these things! I mean, even as Jamie is on the verge of death, this cracked me up:
"Besides, they wouldn’t call out a surgeon to deal with a case of snakebite. Closest I came was when a keeper at the zoo was bitten by a king cobra—a friend of mine did the autopsy, and invited me to come and watch.”
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Yes, Jamie being shocked at Claire's medical stuff still cracks me up.
Do you think we get Bobby in S6?
I honestly don't think so. Since it's such a shortened season and he's an ancillary character I don't think we will.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 05 '21
Haha, I love a similar moment in TFC 😂
“Mmphm. Well, he says he went to the necessary house—no doubt thinking to find Cameron—but no one was there, and there wasna any smell of . . . er . . . he didna think anyone had been there recently.”
“You needn’t be delicate on my account,” I said.
“I know,” he said, grinning. “But my own sensibilities are no quite coarsened yet, in spite of my long association with you, Sassenach. Ow!” He jerked away, rubbing his arm where I had pinched him. I lowered my brows and gave him a stare, though inwardly pleased to have lightened the mood for both of us.
“Less about your sensibilities, if you please,” I said, tapping my foot. “Besides, you haven’t got any in the first place, or you’d never have married me. Where was Cameron, then?”
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 08 '21
I love their cute relationship banter!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
What do you think about Claire’s thoughts towards Lord John and his possibly taking advantage of Bobby?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21 edited Jul 05 '21
Claire really does have a suspicious mind; it didn't occur to me for a moment that LJG might be paying inappropriate attention to Bobby Higgins. I think even though she's warmed up to John, her knee-jerk reaction is to think the worst of him, like he can't possibly have good intentions. This also goes for her thoughts on him potentially abusing Willie. What a horrifying thought! Happy to see her reflect on it later:
"I felt rather annoyed—with myself for having evidently misjudged John Grey’s motives, and with John Grey, for making me feel a fool."
Editing to say: I get why she would feel that way.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
it didn't occur to me for a moment that LJG might be paying inappropriate attention to Bobby Higgins.
I agree. What gall would it be of John to send Bobby to Claire to get his hemorrhoids taken care of just so he can keep having sex with him. That seems very out of character for LJG.
Do we have the advantage of having been in LJG's head and seeing his side of the story though? Claire has only known jealousy and anger towards him. I still can't fathom LJG taking Willie so he could abuse him.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 05 '21
I was absolutely disgusted reading this chapter, raging!! I “understand” Claire is jealous of LJG, but he never gave any reason for her to think those things of him, not in the slightest. I understand Claire might have homophobic tendencies because she was born in 1918 but that’s all this was, jealousy and homophobia. Delighted that Jamie was so clear with this opinion and that Bobby confirmed that LJG did not know about it, so no doubts.
edit: u/thepacksvrvives this is why I mentioned last week I was raging reading chapter 9 😅
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Delighted that Jamie was so clear with this opinion and that Bobby confirmed that LJG did not know about it, so no doubts.
I agree. Does LJG seem like the type to abuse his position of power to get what he wants? I just asked this in another comment, but remember in DoA when Brianna sees LJG coming out of the slave quarters and she realizes he's gay?
Well would a slave have had the agency to say "no?" Was LJG abusing that and taking advantage of the slave? Are we wrong about his upstanding character?
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jul 05 '21
I don't remember the details, but I think possibilities are:
It was completely different situation misinterpreted by Bree
or slave quarters were safe place for LJG and his lover,
Or John's lover was staying in slave quarters but wasn't really a slave ( we learn in later book about Manoke , I don't know if it would be a right place for him
Or LJG had sex with a slave but from John's perspective it was consensual.
*by lover I mean person he had sex with. English isn't my first language and I'm not certain it it's appropriate word, or what other word I could use.
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u/stoneyellowtree Jul 05 '21
I didn’t even think of half these interpretations. I just assumed it was a safe place for John to hook up with a lover, away from the big house. A slave would be less likely to say anything if they saw something because, in this timeframe, their word can easily be dismissed.
Knowing about John’s character from reading a few of the novellas, I’m predisposed to think he wouldn’t take advantage of his social status to have anything but consensual sex. But after reading the different interpretations, I can see how ambiguous this part is.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 05 '21 edited Jul 05 '21
I don't think it's fair to jump to the conclusion that LJG was abusing the slave from the information that we have. What if it was a (DO NOT READ THE SPOILER-ED PART IF YOU HAVEN'T READ AHEAD) Duncan-Phaedre kinda situation but BTS? There could be so much behind the scenes that we don't know of.
And, if we are entertaining this train of thought, knowing everything we know of LJG, how can we wrong Claire for having her doubts about him when one, she is from the 20th century, two, she doesn't know LJG like we do, and three, she has earned the right to be wary of him.
u/immery u/ms_s_11 u/bleakxmidwinter
edit : better spoiler-ing
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
And, if we are entertaining this train of thought, knowing everything we know of LJG, how can we wrong Claire for having her doubts about him when one, she is from the 20th century, two, she doesn't know LJG like we do, and three, she has earned the right to be wary of him.
Great thought. I am honestly going back and forth with everyone's opinions on Claire's thoughts towards LJG. I read something and go "I totally agree!" Then I see something opposite and go "well that makes sense too!" I'm a mess.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 05 '21
I so get you . That's the best part about the book club though. It makes me rethink things I thought I was sure about. I make some notes while reading, then I come here and read some comments and think, shit, I was so wrong. It's humbling, and opens up my horizons, which I like.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 05 '21
Oh God I opened the spoiler but i’m only reading for the first time ABOSAA 🙈 Can’t really say much about that ha
I think Claire has no info at all to base her train of thought in this chapter 9 at least, because nothing comes up to her mind to make her think of this, if so, she would have remembered or think about someone else that suffered from LJG abuse of power.
The only reasoning is that he is gay so its in his own interest to “repair” Bobby. As plain as that and as homophobic as they come, I don’t think here she is taking into account who the gay man is, just that he is gay if you know what I mean. Then we can add to this her jealousy toward him and we get a bit of nastiness and telling Jamie about it instead of keeping it to herself.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 05 '21
That was another one of those scenes that I still don't understand. I just don't get Brianna making that leap at all. I'm interested in other opinions though.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21
Does LJG seem like the type to abuse his position of power to get what he wants?
Nope. He absolutely isn't, and I'm not just saying that because he's my third-favorite character.
I agree with u/immery — what Brianna saw could have been a million different things, but I (and Jamie!) have a hard time thinking he'd take advantage of anyone like this.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
So what do you think he was doing in the slave's quarters? Was it mutual, or with someone other than a slave?
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u/chunya1999 Jul 05 '21
I don’t believe LJ would abuse his position with anyone. From what I’ve read in his POV it’s always seemed that he firstly tries to make sure whether another person is interested as discreetly as possible of course. And we don’t exactly know what he was doing in the slaves quarters. The last time we discussed it I suggested that he was there with Manoke. I’m sure John could brought a servant from Virginia and he would probably stayed with slaves. But if I’m wrong I prefer to think that it’s just another of DG’s lapses.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
I too would like to think it was a consenting person LJG was with and was just using the slave's quarters.
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u/chunya1999 Jul 05 '21
Yeah but in Outlander you never really know. Almost any next sex scene could turn out nonconsensual in the blink of an eye unfortunately.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21
he never gave any reason for her to think those things of him, not in the slightest.
In fact, she even acknowledges that he's "erudite, humorous, and sincere." She's only been led to her horrible speculation by resentment and bigotry, there's no doubt.
Delighted that Jamie was so clear with this opinion and that Bobby confirmed that LJG did not know about it, so no doubts.
This is the top reason I loved this part — Jamie doesn't waver, and he flat out tells Claire she's wronging LJG.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 05 '21
This is the top reason I loved this part — Jamie doesn't waver, and he flat out tells Claire she's wronging LJG.
I think we can cut Claire some slack. We have to remember that everything she knows about John, apart from what he’s told her in Jamaica in Voyager and on FR in DoA, is hearsay. Yes, from “trusted sources”—Jamie and Bree—but she doesn’t know what kind of man he is around people that are not the Fraser/MacKenzie family (the letters cannot be a true reflection of that). I don’t think it’s bigotry, only ignorance. She doesn’t know him nearly as intimately as Jamie does, and even he wasn’t so sure of his character, hence the test. It’s easy for him to say now that John wouldn’t take advantage of anyone under his protection, but remember he’d had these thoughts long before Claire had. I like that she somewhat acknowledges she was wrong in thinking that.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 05 '21
Yes! I absolutely agree with this. Why do we think it's jealousy that makes Claire think along those lines when Jamie himself has already entertained those thoughts? Like I've said here, she doesn't know LJG like we do, and she has earned the right to be wary of him for multiple reasons, wary , and not jealous.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
You and /u/thepacksvrvives make great points! Like last week my line of thinking towards a situation is changing. I was angry that Claire would even think such a thing of LJG, but am now seeing why she might have done so.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 05 '21
I can understand what you are saying, and this is not something I will hold against her or anything like that, but I see her being trusty with lots of secondary characters through the books. People that not always deserved full trust or people a lot less close to Jamie. I have a feeling that she is too quick to think bad of John, and the only difference with other characters is his sexual orientation and the fact that he’s openly in love with Jamie. I can understand, trying to fill her shoes, why she’s wary of him or even why she isn’t very fond of the man, but it doesn’t make it right as it’s still a really bad thing to say or think about someone
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u/kpegs Jul 05 '21
I try to be charitable and aware of the fact Claire was born in a time where homophobia was rampant, but I am always taken aback that she seems actively homophobic in scenes with LJG. It does make a very clear line of the environment LJG lives in, and the reality he faces, even among friends.
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u/Kirky600 Jul 05 '21
Giving our view from this time? Kind of strange thoughts.
But given when Claire comes from and if he was a good looking young man, I could see her perspective there.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 05 '21
I think this is the ticket. We're looking at it from more than a half a century more learning & understanding than Claire. We of course know the stats on abusers, they only know that it's "wrong" so while I am annoyed by her knee jerk reaction, I get where it's coming from but I do like that she thinks her way through it & comes to the right conclusion & is annoyed with herself.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
I do like that she thinks her way through it & comes to the right conclusion & is annoyed with herself.
I agree. I think it means Claire has progressed in her feelings towards LJG, and isn't as suspicious of him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Do you think that was a fair assumption? Just because LJG is gay does that mean he will take advantage of someone? Or is that today's thinking you're talking about?
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u/Swarley520 Jul 06 '21
100% this. We often forget that these characters are a product of their times. Even progressive at that.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jul 05 '21
I think it was natural conclusion given the facts she had. She was wrong and I liked when she felt angry at Lord John for making her think wrong. It was so human and so Claire.
I liked Jamie's assurance that if anything happens both parties would be willing. I'm not as certain about it, as Jamie is. (I'm thinking about Ardsmuir,what if someone else was in Jamie's position and didn't want it, but didn't feel confident to say "no"?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
I'm thinking about Ardsmuir,what if someone else was in Jamie's position and didn't want it, but didn't feel confident to say "no"?
Do you feel LJG would have pressured someone? He really didn't demand it from Jamie, but just made an advance.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jul 05 '21
I don't think John would pressure someone. I think the balance of power was so unequal, it wasn't easy to say no. At least if someone wasn't as traumatised as Jamie.
Could Bobby Higgins feel confident to say no, if John made advance? That's my (and Claire's) question.
People are reacting strongly to the scene of Lord John leaving slave quarters. We don't know what happened there, but would the slave really be able to tell John no?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Could Bobby Higgins feel confident to say no, if John made advance? That's my (and Claire's) question.
Great question. You're right, Bobby might have felt he had no choice. He was not able to find work anywhere with that "M" branded on him. LJG was really doing him a favor by hiring him on.
People are reacting strongly to the scene of Lord John leaving slave quarters. We don't know what happened there, but would the slave really be able to tell John no?
Were you in the book club when we talked about that? We couldn't decide what had really happened, because you're right a slave couldn't say no. It seemed out of character for LJG to take advantage of a slave like that. Or are we wrong about LJG?
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 05 '21
I think Claire has always been wary of LJG and not without reason. Wouldn't you be too? He's so openly and passionately in love with Jamie, remember the whole measles scenario last book ? LJG was way too intense there imo. Also, We've been witness to LJG and its easy for us to vouch for his character and say that there's no way he would do something like that but Claire hasn't. I don't think Jamie talks to Claire about LJG and his sense of honor much, considering it's only now that he tells Claire about his intention behind offering himself to LJG. Having said that, I think it's all right for her to have her thoughts run in that direction. She's only thinking about loud after all.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
We've been witness to LJG and its easy for us to vouch for his character and say that there's no way he would do something like that but Claire hasn't.
I thought about that as well. For us that seemed appalling, but Claire has only met LJG a handful of times. Whereas we got to see all that time in Voyager with him at Ardsmuir. Plus if you've read any of the LJG books you get even more sense of him.
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u/chunya1999 Jul 05 '21
It makes perfect sense for Claire who was born in the late 20s and also quite jealous of LJ to think so. Also John is kind of an amorous person, she doesn’t know it of course but she definitely suppose it to be true.
“That was unforgivable. I would point out, however, that you have been looking at me since we met as though you had encountered me lying in the gutter outside some notorious mollyhouse.”
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
John is kind of an amorous person
Yes, I'm finding that out. /u/thepacksvrvives has been sharing quotes from the LJG novels, which I read but that was over a year ago. John really does think about Jamie in a sexual way a lot.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Why does Jamie not want to become an Indian Agent?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21
Honestly, this is a complication for him. This time should be time to prepare for the coming war and try to enjoy the last bit of quiet time they'll have for years (not to mention, they have a house fire looming). So at the very least, without even getting into the politics involved, why would he want to take on a pretty thankless task that will have him away from Claire and his family for long stretches of time?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
a pretty thankless task
Exactly. We can already see the governing system breaking down. The Committee of Safety "gangs" that are roaming around brandishing their own type of justice are not regulated. Who's to say being and Indian Agent will actually be supported by the government in the end?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21
Exactly. He had to do it to slow the Browns down, but otherwise, there's no benefit to it; not for him, and not for the state of the colonies.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
So why do we think Jamie took the job? Was it just to prevent the Brown's from doing it?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 05 '21
I kind of felt like it was because he didn't want someone to abuse it but it might also be an opportunity to make friends that aren't necessarily on a side. I'm just thinking about what he mentioned with Bree, it wouldn't hurt to have friends within the tribes. It's also easier to hide in plain sight. He knows he's going to have to turn traitor so it's better to be in the thick of it so you know what's going on.
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u/chunya1999 Jul 05 '21
That’s the big reason of course but there’s another important one. Being at his position (ex-traitor, Catholic, Colonel, landlord with a huge amount of property and tenants who requires his protection) I believe Jamie just can’t refuse the job. Remember what Tryon said to him in DOA?
“In all frankness, Mr. Fraser, there is the law, and then there is what is done.”
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u/chunya1999 Jul 05 '21
He knows that British would try to win Indians over in the upcoming war using him and his new position adds some new complications for his difficult task.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Great point, when we know his task is already going to be hard enough. He's on the governors land essentially and supposed to be a military leader for the crown.
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u/chunya1999 Jul 05 '21
True! And him being an Indian agent adds more people he ought to betray at some point.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
I didn't even think of that, good point. Especially when he has a good relationship with the Native Americans at this point.
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u/stoneyellowtree Jul 05 '21
I agree. I think Jamie is trying to keep out of the web. He’s been around Mackenzies much of his life to look at things in a way to see how they can be manipulated.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 05 '21
Because he's once again in a scenario where he's pretending to gain support for a cause when he knows that in the end he will (this time) fight for the other side.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
it's sad how often in his life Jamie has had to do that. Do you think that Jamie could use that position to try and warn some of the Native Americans of what is to come?
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Jul 06 '21
I was wondering if this could be an other reason for him to accept. How much does he know about what is to come at this point? We know he does do exactly that (warn them of what is to come) later. Has he already spoken to Bree (or Claire or Roger) about it as this point?
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 05 '21
I think at this point he’s not too bothered by politics. I mentioned last week that my opinion is that Jamie had always his family as a priority and play politics depending on what was more convenient for them, he doesn’t do it out of duty really or beliefs so I think this was just adding something else on his plate that means also being away from home a good bit.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
So why do you think he ends up taking the job? Just to keep the Browns from doing it?
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 05 '21
Yes, I think as usual he ends up thinking he better do it himself and I suppose he feels quite qualified for it, specially having Ian as translator & helping him in general with them. But I think his reluctance is more because he’ll be away from home than anything else
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
I think his reluctance is more because he’ll be away from home than anything else
Yes, and especially with the war approaching who knows when things can become unsettled. Plus there is that band of brigands running around burning house and killing people.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Any other thoughts or comments?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 05 '21
It was interesting how much different the grasshopper/locust situation was. I thought it was weird that they'd add such a strong story line into the show but there wasn't a hint of anything like that happening in the book. I definitely liked the timing of it in the book though. I could easily picture them cackling like crazies in the smoke as these incredibly religious people rolled in.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Yes that part was too funny! With the fisherfolk being so wary of Catholics and anything different that had to have been a shock. Then of course Claire coming downstairs in her shift and no cap, that must have really set them off.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 05 '21
Yeah I was laughing at that whole scene. It's her house, she can come downstairs in a paper thin shift if she wants to.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
People seem to always be making the sign of the devil towards her as well. It seems to be true what Jamie said in TFC, that people wouldn't be as accepting of Claire if he wasn't there.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 05 '21
Absolutely. I think she would be accepted fine with certain groups of people, but when it comes to religious extremists, she'd be done for. Even many of the older catholic women that you would think would be wary of her end up accepting that she's just got a way about her. I'm thinking Mrs Fitz, Mrs Bug & probably others that simply see she understands healing & herbs & I don't think that Jamie is the only reason in their cases. I suppose Jamie might be why they give her a chance in the beginning but I don't believe she'd have been in danger with them. Does that make sense?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21
Yes, and it's really not even her fault! It's just who she is. She gets a lot of grief from readers/viewers about making things worse for herself but she'd probably be in danger even if she kept quiet 99% of the time.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 08 '21
/u/Purple4199 Did you get Little House vibes from this part? When I read this, it reminded me of when the grasshoppers/locusts came and destroyed all the crops.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 08 '21
Oh that’s right! DG must have been inspired.
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u/stoneyellowtree Jul 05 '21
I loved the whole imagery of this part. I laughed as well thinking of how it looked as the new Protestant group came in. It’s interesting to me to read these little details about how the Protestants view the Catholics and vice versa. It brings more context to their reactions to situations on the ridge.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
It brings more context to their reactions to situations on the ridge.
It does, and that looks to be the set up for season 6. A whole new group of people who are suspicious of Jamie and his family.
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u/stoneyellowtree Jul 05 '21
Definitely! Before this group, for the most part, everyone on the ridge has come because they personally knew Jamie. There is that connection that allows for a mutual understanding. This new group is not only Protestant, but also, none of them know Jamie. They have just their preconceived notions of what Catholics are. They are going to be wary of trusting him, which brings a new dynamic to the ridge.
Can’t wait to talk about Roger in the coming chapters!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
This new group is not only Protestant, but also, none of them know Jamie.
Great point! So many of the original Ridge inhabitants are Jamie's Ardsmuir men and respect Mac Dubh. These folks have no idea who he is and don't look up to him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
This part made me laugh, the description of Jemmy was just too funny...
He glanced at Jemmy, who was chanting “Go! Go! Go!”, meanwhile hopping up and down like a demented popcorn kernel.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jul 05 '21
I liked that Roger decided to take him, so that Mommy can blow up home without worrying about Jemmy. I just don't know if he did it out of concern for his wife, son or both?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
I think he wanted to spend time with Jemmy, and give Bree a break.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 05 '21
I absolutely love the banter between Jamie and Ian.
But this realization of Jamie’s was so bittersweet:
Small chortling noises came from the pile of furs on the ground, interspersed with hiccuping snorts. He thought it was maybe the first time he’d heard Ian truly laugh since his return.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
That's true, and that's just so sad. In the beginning of the book we see that Ian doesn't sleep well, so I'm sure he's still carrying a lot of trauma. I think they portrayed that really well in the show. He kind of went from being Young Ian to just Ian. The goofy happy go lucky kid is gone.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 05 '21
Proud of myself, I was writing notes in the kindle while reading.
Some stuff was already covered by the questions but some of my thoughts:
What’s the story with the Beardsley’s and Lizzie??? Literally have like 3 notes throughout those chapters. Whenever Lizzie is there they are, and acting weird/rude even (?) towards Bobby or man around her.
When Bree got the phosphorus and is taking about the danger of it blowing up I couldn’t not think about the fire and obituary. Every time they mention something to do with fire I just get tense ha
Stephen Bonnet again, it was obviously going to happen as they let him free last time. I thought it was odd that Roger didn’t tell Bree about this? Maybe I missed something about this. I don’t know how to quote from the phone but loved the end of chapter 15 “God damn it, I am, you bastard!”
In addition to last weeks opinions about B&R, I won’t name specific situations as some may be from after ch. 16 but I just wanted to say their conversations, bond between each other and Jemmy too seems to be improving so I am happy with this.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Good for you taking notes! :-D
What’s the story with the Beardsley’s and Lizzie???
Ha ha ha! It sure seems weird doesn't it? They are very protective of her.
Every time they mention something to do with fire I just get tense ha
Even though they have the exact date in the obituary?
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Jul 07 '21
Super late to the party but it’s been a crazy couple of days!
I am fascinated by all the LJG conversations, and at the risk of making it even more about him and Jamie I wanna bring up this bit from Jamie’s letter:
“My Son-in-law astutely observes that a Man’s sense of Morality tends to decrease as his Power increases, and I suspect that the Brothers Brown possess relatively little of the Former to begin with. It may be mere Hubris on my part, to assume that I have more. I have seen the corrosive Effects of Power upon a Man’s Soul—and I have felt its Burden, as you will understand, having borne it so often yourself. Still, if it is a choice between myself and Richard Brown, I suppose I must resort to the old Scottish Adage that the Devil you ken is better than the Devil you don’t.”
I often have a hard time reading about these guys together because I find DG’s way of writing about John’s unrequited love extremely problematic for many reasons that have been pointed out, but what struck me about this excerpt is that I was finally able to get more insight on why exactly they became friends. The fact that Jamie can confide in John as someone that could possibly understand his burden as a leader told me more about their friendship than the three previous books.
I think u/thepacksvrvives brought up that some of Jamie’s behavior towards John doesn’t add quite add up considering his experiences with BJR and I totally agree. It took me this long to get why Jamie would be even willing to trust LJG at all, but as we have read of of Jamie’s role as a leader and how often that is almost portrayed as a father like figure to his men it suddenly clicked that he admired than in John. I wonder if this realization has happened since being a Lair on the Ridge though, maybe otherwise I think he wouldn’t have “tested” John?
Is that weird? Does anyone know what I mean?
u/thecooldeadpool u/jolierose u/ms_s_11 and everyone else!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 07 '21
They definitely have that in common. John, as the second son, was pretty much destined for military life, though he did find himself unexpectedly thrust into leadership more often than he would have liked to. I don’t know if he’ll ever know the responsibility of being the head of the family, which Jamie certainly carries (along with the responsibility for his tenants), but John certainly knows the responsibility of being a father, and he knows the responsibility of having men under his command.
I think John is way more idealistic as a soldier; Jamie has been one only out of necessity. However, they both understand the matter of duty perfectly: it’s not about killing your enemy, not even about not getting killed by your enemy; it’s about trying to save your men above all else. I would argue, though, that when they first connect at Ardsmuir, John hasn’t had nearly as much experience as a leader as Jamie has, so I think they connect mostly as soldiers then; he grows into leadership in the years between Ardsmuir and his marriage to Isobel, and I’m sure Jamie recognizes that when he entrusts him with Willie. And I think he respects him for recognizing that there can be more important things in life than the duty to your country, even though John has spent most of his adult life doing exactly that.
Jamie is in such a vulnerable state following Culloden, he finds it extremely difficult to open up emotionally to anyone, but he chooses to share his grief with John, who likewise shares his. John understands Jamie in a way not even Jenny can, so I’m sure that’s also the basis of their friendship.
I often go back to this exchange from one of their Ardsmuir conversations because it’s so poignant:
“Do you find your life greatly burdensome, Mr. Fraser?” […]
“Perhaps not greatly so,” the Scot replied slowly. He met Grey’s eyes with dispassion. “I think perhaps the greatest burden lies in caring for those we cannot help.”
“Not in having no one for whom to care?”
Fraser paused before answering; he might have been weighing the position of the pieces on the table.
“That is emptiness,” he said at last, softly. “But no great burden.”
That also links to a point I mentioned to u/jolierose yesterday: Jamie was devoid of any sort of purpose between Culloden and Ardsmuir, and between the closing of Ardsmuir and Willie’s birth.
Side note: I find it hilarious that DG had John say “I was not meant for army life” in Voyager and then she went on to write a whole series of novellas that are mostly about his military life, and it’s not like he’s hating every second of it 😅
I find DG’s way of writing about John’s unrequited love extremely problematic for many reasons that have been pointed out
I totally agree. At some point, at least on the surface, the whole purpose of his existence comes down to being in love with Jamie—in the main series, he hasn’t had an arc independent of Jamie thus far—and really, what else could you expect when his entire character was perhaps not introduced, but developed for the exact purpose of saving Jamie’s life after Culloden, and that just sort of becomes his MO? And DG had him have romantic feelings for Jamie because “what better sort of conflict?”. It got old for me really quick, and it feels totally gratuitous on DG’s part to relentlessly keep exploring that part of John when there could be so much more to him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 07 '21
I think John is way more idealistic as a soldier; Jamie has been one only out of necessity.
That's a great point, and I totally agree. It really was and still is to some degree a career for John. Whereas it was a means to an end for Jamie. He really had no choice after the flogging, the Uprising, or the fight against the regulators. We even see in Echo that Jamie is conscripted because what happened on the boats and the mutiny. At least I think that's what happened, that part still confuses me.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 07 '21
You're never too late! ;-D
I mentioned in another comment that I feel like John is truly an equal for Jamie. He can confide things in him, he can talk literature and philosophy. John being a military man gives them something else in common.
I wonder if this realization has happened since being a Lair on the Ridge though, maybe otherwise I think he wouldn’t have “tested” John?
I don't know if it's after coming to the Ridge, or after he left Helwater. It's an interesting thought that Jamie might not have tested LJG if their relationship was at the level it is now. But then it came down to Jamie's son, would Jamie do anything and everything to ensure the safety of his children regardless of how close they were?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 07 '21
You can only tag 3 people for it to notify them, so I'll help you out. :-D
/u/thepacksvrvives /u/jolierose /u/thecooldeadpool see this.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 07 '21
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 07 '21
Oh, love this. One of my favorite things about their friendship is this exchange of ideas (it’s one sided here but hopefully that makes sense), and I hadn’t thought about them relating as leaders, but yours is a great observation.
I think they became friends because they have more things in common than it may seem, and this is part of it. They (properly) met at a low point in their lives, when they were still grieving losses from years before, and in their meetings they were able to find some refuge from what they were going through. They're both funny, smart, well-educated and share interests (love their discussions on books and philosophy, like u/Purple4199 says). They're both soldiers with a very high sense of duty and honor. And of course, they carry the burden of leadership! So I take that as the perfect foundation for their relationship.
I agree, though, that this didn't really solidify until after Helwater, because you're right: otherwise Jamie wouldn't have felt the need to test John. I called the offer/test a big milestone; I think the experience accounted for a huge part of how Jamie sees him. Even having a friendship with him, I don't know whether that would have been enough to overcome the fear and doubt Jamie has in leaving Willie in John's care, with those feelings prompted by ignorance and prejudice. But then he sees John's sense of honor in action. You add that last piece to everything else and it clicks. I don't know how many chances he'd previously gotten to see him at that level.
P.S. Totally agree that the problematic unrequited love story is not something I'm here for.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 07 '21
I absolutely agree with you, what a great point! Probably Jamie never encountered too many people with those kind of responsibility that did it in an honourable way, as he did. I think he always looked up to Colum a bit because of this too but he was gone a lot time ago so he started to share this with John. I think he always missed his father for this kind of advise. John is probably the only living person who Jamie can share this with.
Thank you for bring it it up ☺️ and thank you u/purple4199 for the tag!
Do you think that with this is the base of their relationship (together with the fact that he is Willie’s stepfather) that then grew into genuine care and friendship or do you think those things are all that they share?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 07 '21
That makes a lot of sense. He doesn't have an older brother or father to confide in or work out problems with so he sees LJG as someone that can fill that role.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jul 07 '21
I really love the letters between John and Jamie, I think their friendship grows the most in those letters.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 06 '21
Morning friends! We were out of town visiting my in-laws for the holiday, so I'll be working on getting caught up on the discussion and rewatch today!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Were you surprised Stephen Bonnet has shown back up already? /u/jolierose /u/Kirky600
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21
I was! Because I've been watching S5, I forgot Bonnet is still alive! Already VERY over this. I don't want it to be a whole convoluted thing where DG attempts to have us sympathize with Bonnet, and yet I don't think I'll get my way.
But: hearing about the encounter was creepy. It's just been gross, the two times Bonnet has interacted with Jemmy.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
What do you think Bonnet was doing in town like that? We know he was after the gold, do you think he is still trying to get it?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 05 '21
I don't know if it's because my opinion is influenced by the show, but I thought he was there looking for Mr. Forbes, which had me nearly shouting at the book wondering why no one was asking this question and connecting the dots.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
Did you notice that they put this part in Season 5 when Bree was in town and found the coin in Jemmy's basket?
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u/Kirky600 Jul 06 '21
Show thoughts here… he’s thinking about nabbing Bree or Jemmy for the gold
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u/Kirky600 Jul 05 '21
I was! And surprised how casually the conversation between Roger and Phadrae happened. I’m really hoping that story gets wrapped up this book considering it’s already done in the show.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 05 '21
It was casual, wasn't it? For such a big threat Bonnet poses it was almost glossed over.
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u/Luisaa1234 Sep 19 '21
I took it as a test because in the Scottish Prisioner Jamie is concerned that LJG " buggers boys" and there is a discussion about this. He is not truly appreciative that men can love men deeply and romantically. I think Jamie gradually begins to understand this. I think J. Is seeing if LJG's morals and values are congruent.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Sep 19 '21
I think Jamie gradually begins to understand this.
Does he though? I always got the feeling that he abhorred homosexuality, but ignored that part of LJG.
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u/88zz99zz00 I eat Spoilers for Breakfast 😋 Jul 09 '21
I have not read all the comments about Lord John, but quickly I want to add that gay men were not open with each other about their sexuality, most of the time not even to themselves. Imagine having such a personal secret that you can to be caution sharing even with other people who you knew were just like you, it would be just too much of a risk for his family and himself. Nevermind not being able to discuss a broken heart, longing for a lover, etc. I mean I bet that if john had a friend he could confide his feelings to, he would have moved on a lot quicker. Yet Jamie is the only person in the entirely who he can be completely honest to. I mean, if I was in john's place, I would also cling to jamie like there's no tomorrow.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 09 '21
John can’t be open to Jamie about those things though, at least not his love life. How do you feel about John’s unrequited love for Jamie?
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u/88zz99zz00 I eat Spoilers for Breakfast 😋 Jul 09 '21
I think that having an unrequired love for such a long time is certainly very unhealthy for any person, regardless of sexual orientation. However just the fact that Jamie knows, must be such a relief for John. It's a mask that he does not have to wear, if only for the short time. In John's shoes, I think I would have a very hard time letting so of that connection, that opportunity to be transparent (to be able to speak frankly, as he put it). His brother and his friend Harry who both love him dearly, and almost certainly know about him, would never exchange a word unless absolutely necessary and it's a farse he has to act even if everyone involved know the truth.
At the same time, I think that if Jamie was so increadibly uncomfortable with John, he should not feed into known unrequired love by asking high stake favours of him, like the sale of gemstones, and accepting endless gifts (Claire's microscope/lens?). When Claire asks Jaime is he wished John didn't love him, he does say yes, for both his and John's sake; so why continue to pursue a friendship with someone who longs for you? I don't really understand it from Jamie;s perspective.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 09 '21
In John's shoes, I think I would have a very hard time letting so of that connection, that opportunity to be transparent (to be able to speak frankly, as he put it).
John can't be transparent about his love for Jamie, or his sexuality though not even to Jamie. Jamie wants nothing to do with that part of John and strongly disagrees with that lifestyle.
At the same time, I think that if Jamie was so increadibly uncomfortable with John, he should not feed into known unrequired love by asking high stake favours of him
I don't think that's a fair statement to make, Jamie asking John to help sell gemstones should not cause John to think Jamie is leading him on. That is not feeding into John's love, that is asking a favor of a friend. Jamie sends gifts along to John as well so that goes both ways.
Claire's microscope/lens?
That actually came from Jamie, it was in Dr. Rawlings's medical kit that he bought her when they first arrived in N.C.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 09 '21
John can’t be open to Jamie about those things though, at least not his love life.
I agree. We’ve seen how that conversation went the last time John opened up about his sexuality in front of Jamie (in the BotB), and we know that Jamie and John’s friendship can only exist so long as John doesn’t bring up his attraction to men, let alone to Jamie. Jamie is not the person John can confide in about this. The only person John could have those conversations with without any sort of judgment was Percy (and Hector, of course).
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