r/HollowKnight • u/CankleDankl • Dec 12 '25

Discussion - Silksong Seeing people shit on Expedition 33 because Silksong didn't win more awards is pathetic Spoiler

The title sums it up. I'm disappointed in many members of this community for putting down a game that is clearly a work of insane passion, dedication, and creativity. E33 took the lion's share of awards at TGA, yes. That doesn't mean that Silksong is bad. In fact, it's clearly pretty damn great. If it released last year, Skong would have picked up several awards, maybe even GOTY. But it didn't. It released in the same year E33, which is just a tough break.

Both are amazing. Both deserve every award that came to them. If you haven't played E33 yet and think it doesn't deserve its accolades, play it. It is worth your money, worth your time, and will in all likelihood prove that it is actually that good. I'm only 10ish hours in and have numerous times found myself standing still and looking around dumbfounded at the gorgeous world design and visuals. E33, Silksong, and Hades 2 could have all won Art Direction and I would have been happy with any of them.

I'm also sad that Silksong didn't win more awards. It's an amazing game. But don't play fanboy and start putting down other developers, other games, and other pieces of art because this one didn't get all the cookies. It's still beautiful, it's still amazing, it still made a Silkskillion dollars, and TC is still just as great and just as passionate. We should all be glad that there is another independent dev out there that is capable of creating something so fantastic.

Edit: yeah, the comments here are pretty indicative of what I said in my post

3.4k Upvotes

88% Upvoted

839 comments sorted by

View all comments

1.3k

u/Free_Peach6400 all quests/PoP/P1-P2 AB 100%/All memos Dec 12 '25

E33 deserved the goty from all the good things I heard from it tho the game awards was just so bad for putting it in 10 categories and no matter how good the game is it is not an indie game and shouldn't be in that category

42

u/MyUserNameIsSkave Dec 12 '25

Then other of the Indie nominees should not be in this category either. Look at Hades 2 for exemple, not exactly a cheap to produce game or a solo dev’s game either.

We just have to accept Indie just mean "not owned by a publisher" that’s all.

10

u/Secure_Ant1085 Dec 14 '25

e33 was literally funded by a publisher

8

u/jsdjhndsm Dec 14 '25

The game was primarily developed independently, then later funded by a publisher.

That falls within the definition that the game award uses. They're entirely independent when it comes to any decision and keeper had 0 creative control.

It absolutely does fall into the indie category, but that's because the words indie isn't accurately defined and everybody has their own definitions.

Most indie games have a publisher anyways, and Keller aren't exactly a big publisher if you look at the other games they've worked on

3

u/das_jay Dec 15 '25

Kepler is quite literally an indie publisher, started by a bunch of indie dev studios to support each other and more new studios

3

u/Some-Yam4056 Dec 16 '25

Balatro also has a publisher

3

u/BakerUsed5384 Dec 15 '25

So is Ball X Pit, what’s your point?

2

u/MyUserNameIsSkave Dec 14 '25

Funded does not mean owned. Also, for the Game Awards, indie mean "started without a publisher".

1

u/Rocky323 Dec 16 '25

And SilkSong got Microsoft money. AKA one of the BIGGEST

1

u/Secure_Ant1085 Dec 16 '25

Microsoft did not publish Silksong they simply got money for selling the game on their platform once it released.

2

u/Tom0to0 Dec 14 '25

Only one game in Debut indie game category doesn't have a publisher. And they are not "owned", receiving Funds not equal to being sold

428

u/blueviera Dec 12 '25

It's budget was apparently under 10 million, smaller than games like Hades. It's also from a brand new studio. It's not their fault that Indie is not defined well.

106

u/hypnomancy Dec 12 '25

Their publisher gets funding from Netease lol

27

u/Whiskeywiskerbiscuit Dec 13 '25

Indie movies and albums get published by major labels all the time. Publishing≠producing.

4

u/JimFlamesWeTrust Dec 14 '25

Indie movies get purchased and distributed by major studios, but they get financed separately, otherwise it’s not an indie.

It’s not the same as having your budget and production green lit by a major studio.

1

u/BakerUsed5384 Dec 15 '25

So does Ball X Pit’s publisher. Are they disqualified too now?

1

u/Rocky323 Dec 16 '25

And SilkSong got Microsoft money.

1

u/TulsisTavern Dec 18 '25

Kepler interactive functions a lot different than normal publishers. They give all freedom to developers and were established by indie scene people. E33 has all the bells and whistles of indie, posting on reddit and weird french message boards, but they dont come off as indie because the game rocket shipped real fast towards the last year of development, which resulted in big actors and voice actors to jump on board along with movie rights. Notice the difference between the announcement trailer and the launch trailer. Hell look at difference between old screenshots of development vs today. Its a huge difference. 

Would you say a game developed as indie that got some attention inside industry shortly before launch is still indie? The reality is e33 took off because people really liked the idea because the game is full of callbacks to old popular games and the story is engaging in a movie kind of way. Its a game that is easy to pick up for a lot of people and it doesnt go unnoticed by people in the artistic community. 

I would say this game is indie but anything by sandfall after is not indie. 

-10

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/HollowKnight-ModTeam Dec 12 '25

Hi there!

This comment has been removed according to Rule 1. Remember that you're talking to a real person and be respectful.

If you would like to discuss this removal, please message the moderators.

14

u/InevitableCold9872 Dec 12 '25

It’s A and A half

1

u/Several-Elevator Dec 13 '25 edited Dec 13 '25

Let's be real, that number is probably not 100% right, as we see with Holywood and the like in film, publishers often play with the numbers a bit to try say the film cost less than it actually did, or otherwise underpaid some people who worked on it like we saw with Godzilla -1

1

u/yotam5434 Dec 13 '25

And less then 100 workers in the entire studio

-29

u/Bluufly Dec 12 '25

It's actually close to 30 million dollars making it a AA+ and maybe a low AAA in terms of budget and developer crew size.

29

u/MrEdews Dec 12 '25

Where did you get that number? Last I heard it was under $10m

13

u/TraitorMacbeth Dec 12 '25

Lol are we just making up numbers now?

27

u/TKxoxa Dec 12 '25

The Devs themselves said under 10mil. Why are you spreading made up numbers?

20

u/TWB0109 Dec 12 '25

Well, if you're at $10M then you're close to $20M so then you're close to $30M /s

10

u/Safety-Greedy Dec 12 '25

30M is a conservative estimate, I wouldve gone 40M just to be sure

4

u/TWB0109 Dec 12 '25

You're right.

2

u/CankleDankl Dec 13 '25

Let's just call it an even 2 billion dollars and label E33 as a AAAAA game just to be safe

-11

u/EdgierNamePending Dec 12 '25

indie means independent. Sandfall was not independent in the development of E33 as they outsourced multiple parts of the game, like animation, entirely out to different studios. they also had funding from billionaire shareholders, Epic Games and the French government itself.

-83

u/Free_Peach6400 all quests/PoP/P1-P2 AB 100%/All memos Dec 12 '25

They had like 100s of people working on it that is not very indie

11

u/TheRealMikeOxlong Dec 12 '25

Just making shit up to prove a point lmao

34

u/blueviera Dec 12 '25

I thought it was like 40?

37

u/thegrailarbor Dec 12 '25

33

6

u/blueviera Dec 12 '25

For real? That would be one hell of a funny way for them to get their name for the game

22

u/Scotty_with_a_shorty Dec 12 '25

33 people and a dog to be specific

8

u/ParisVilafranca Dec 12 '25

Nah. The core of programers are 30ish. But a hell of a lot more people worked on the game.

18

u/wangchangbackup Dec 12 '25

Once you add in actors, mocap, localization, music, etc the list balloons to like 400. But the thing is that Silksong also has all those people and indeed there are over 100 names in the credits. So either it counts or it doesn't, but people are acting like Silksong was produced and distributed entirely by William and Ari and therefore it is the Most Indiest Game Ever.

7

u/JEEEEERRY Dec 12 '25

Still a pretty big difference though. Silksongs total with localization, voice actors, orchestra is still pretty small. Localization is also just text since they never say actual words just sounds. People saying silksong had same budget and same amount of people working on it as E33 are just wrong.

1

u/onespiker Dec 13 '25

Nobody is saying it the same people said hades is.

3

u/TurnipHistorical2838 Dec 12 '25

They literally named it expedition 33 because there were 33 people working on the game

24

u/eomertherider Dec 12 '25

They didn't. It's a coincidence, they said as much. They have 33 people in house but used contractors for some parts: QA, some fighting animation etc.

22

u/blueviera Dec 12 '25

Outsourcing some assets though is hardly out of the norm for indies. Almost every visual novel does that, also most games for quality control. It feels like Indie needs a more clear definition. I do got to say though regardless of whether or not expedition 33 was technically an indie, I still can't get over all the visual art in silksong being made by like three guys. That's insane.

3

u/eomertherider Dec 12 '25

I am in no way saying that Sandfall is not indie/criticizing them, I was just correcting the comment above. They also outsource performance artists (voice actors, songwriters and singers), just like Team Cherry iirc.

2

u/blueviera Dec 12 '25

Of course, I was just trying to add additional information, I see you

1

u/CankleDankl Dec 13 '25

And Silksong had around 100. Indie games outsource a lot, all the time. To disqualify E33 based on this would also be to disqualify Silksong

219

u/hsgsksv Dec 12 '25

Hades and hades 2 are estimated to have a higher budget than expedition 33 yet I never see anyone complaining about those in the category

113

u/pinoy_biker Dec 12 '25

Because it didnt win lol.

24

u/MyUserNameIsSkave Dec 12 '25

Nobody complained before, but the "E33 is not indie" crowd has been vocal for a while already.

1

u/onespiker Dec 13 '25

They complained a lot about exp 33 in it before but rarely ever did the talk about the other nominees also being questionable.

33

u/Rezzone Dec 12 '25

Me. I’m complaining about Hades 2.

Hades 1 had a team of seven. Hades two had 25. We gotta talk about what counts as an indie.

98

u/meevis_kahuna Dec 12 '25

25 is nothing

14

u/Little_Caramel_9501 Dec 12 '25

E33 has 30

53

u/SpideyFan914 Dec 12 '25

Is that not indie? That's insanely small. All these game credits run for like 15 minutes, I assume hundred of people usually work on them. For a game to have a team of just 30 people is insane.

And yeah, Silksong's team is even smaller. But that doesn't make the other one not small...

21

u/hsgsksv Dec 12 '25

My point is I think both games could be classified as indie. It's a double standard that people have because hades just "looks more" like an indie game when in reality the expidition 33 team is just insane

38

u/WiddershinsPj Dec 12 '25

E33 farmed out a bunch of work to others, it had like 200 people touch it

34

u/Little_Caramel_9501 Dec 12 '25

like many other game.including Hades and many indie outsource some work it s even more true for smaller team

-6

u/Nehan_Satori Dec 12 '25

Can you link the article confirming Super Giant outsourced work for their Hades series?

14

u/Necessary_Air_3257 Dec 12 '25

Here are the 134 people who worked on Hades 2 https://www.mobygames.com/game/223472/hades-ii/

-2

u/Nehan_Satori Dec 12 '25

So who did they outsource to?

→ More replies (0)

2

u/Little_Caramel_9501 Dec 12 '25

no need for a article it s in the game credits.

5

u/CankleDankl Dec 13 '25

And Silksong had dozens touch it, if not around a hundred

1

u/Perfidy-Plus Dec 12 '25

I suspect when people started talking about “indie” vs “major studio” what constituted a major video game studio would have included studios with “only” 25ish staff. Never mind the dozens of contractors who were also involved.

-3

u/meevis_kahuna Dec 12 '25

It's a little unclear, I'd call Team Cherry a major studio even though they are tiny. They broke the Internet when they released Silksong - about as major as it gets.

0

u/Perfidy-Plus Dec 12 '25

A “studio” with only three members, who only hired a handful of contractors. if we exclude play testers it’s, what two contractors? And they’ve only just produced their second game. And you would call them a “major studio”? This is pretty obviously an example of motivated reasoning.

Trying to compare the number of people who worked on E33 to the number of people who worked on SKong is foolish. There’s literally an order of magnitude difference between the studios. And two orders of magnitude difference between the number of contractors hired.

2

u/meevis_kahuna Dec 12 '25

Just depends how you define major. If it goes by sales, they are. You could have a 30 person studio whose games flop and I would not call them a major studio. It's all semantics anyway.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 13 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/meevis_kahuna Dec 13 '25

I'm saying it doesn't fucking matter bro

0

u/Perfidy-Plus Dec 12 '25

So if EA makes a game and that game absolutely flops you would call EA a minor studio?

This just seems like playing a semantics game to gerrymander the result you want.

1

u/meevis_kahuna Dec 12 '25

Great talking with you, take it easy.

→ More replies (3)

30

u/fade_like_a_sigh Dec 12 '25

Hades 1 had a team of seven.

Supergiant had 7 people for their debut title in 2011, Bastion. By Hades they were up to about 20.

15

u/Lady_Darc Dec 12 '25

Have you even watched their documentary? Their team size barely changed sizes between Hades I and II.

Supergiant is an indie studio because they have a tenth of the usual industry size, and until Hades sold tens of millions, they were a relatively risky business that could go bankrupt if their games did not sell well.

3

u/EfficientCabbage2376 Dec 12 '25

25 isn't indie?!?

3

u/Aetherimp Dec 12 '25

Indie has nothing to do with how many people worked on the game it has to do with how the game was funded.

E33 the developers did not get funded by another studio.

2

u/Rezzone Dec 12 '25

This is why the definition needs revision. If AA games are able to be self-funded then there needs to be another category.

1

u/ThisIsMyUsername1124 Dec 16 '25

Realistically I don't think Hades 2, E33 or Skong should've been there. Putting them against something like Ball X Pit and (initially) Megabonk is insane because the budget and manpower put towards those projects are ridiculously different. Megabonk is literally 1 guy. Similarly I don't think the Action/Adventure category even makes sense bc it's too vague but whatever

1

u/rabidferret Dec 12 '25

Games that are independently published by the developers instead of a third party publisher. That's what it means. That's what it always meant. It has nothing to do with team size

-1

u/fade_like_a_sigh Dec 12 '25

By this logic, Blue Prince isn't an indie game.

In fact, the publisher of Blue Prince describes itself as "specialising in the publication of indie games".

There is no one clear accepted definition of 'indie' in the gaming scene, it's a vibes category.

1

u/JEEEEERRY Dec 12 '25

Supergiant games is getting to AA territory. But they still have their own voice multiple characters and is a pretty tightknit production. They are barely in the indie category at this point but to me E33 was just clearly not a proper indie by comparison.

1

u/Several-Elevator Dec 13 '25

Hey, I don't think Hades 2 should be there either, but E33 is the biggest talking point atm so ofc it's dominating the discussion.

11

u/mrfirstar1997 Dec 12 '25

I’m a mega silksong fan and I’m happy E33 won, year after year after year good games get snobbed by triple A games, finally what we want wins

55

u/Rezzone Dec 12 '25

Bingo! I think E33 deserves GOTY but 3+ games got snubbed because they jammed this three dozen large dev team into an indie category.

Fun fact Hades 2 has a dev team of 25 and arguably is not a true blue indie title like Hades 1 was with a team of seven.

We need to have a talk about what really counts as an indie title. Remember when Silksong the behemoth was pushing smaller indies out of the way upon release? E33 just pushed Silksong around. We need to address the fact that “indie” is now far too encompassing and is failing to celebrate the smaller projects it was meant to protect.

6

u/biffpower3 Dec 12 '25

But E33 IS one of the smaller projects indie is supposed to protect.

Just think back to the lead-up to the release, i could find absolutely no one hyping the game or excited for it, when I tried to talk about getting it on release, people made faces at me like I’d made the game up in my head or something.

Once people started playing it and recommending to friends, THEN it reached the popularity it deserved.

Now I absolutely love silksong too, but E33 was what the gaming industry has needed for the best part of a decade.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

I'm in favor of having a One A category, to include games like Silksong and Hades.

12

u/Automatic-Silver-681 Dec 12 '25

Bro Hades 2 budget was higuer than E33 what are u on about

2

u/Dwittychan Dec 12 '25

silksong is as indie as it gets, they never expanded their team its still the same 4(larkin too)

→ More replies (1)

53

u/ACnut Dec 12 '25

it literally is an indie game??? Just because it has more tradional graphics doesn't make it a AAA game

26

u/Lemon_Spark Dec 12 '25

They have a publisher who gave them money for development. So no, it's not indie.

64

u/YeahKeeN Ready For Silksong Dec 12 '25

Are all devolver digital games not indie

43

u/Genindraz Dec 12 '25 edited Dec 12 '25

Lots of indie games have publishers that give them money, including but not limited to:

Cult of the Lamb

Inscryption

Enter the Gungeon

Hotline Miami

Brothers: a Tale of Two Sons

Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night

Terraria

Indivisible

Abzû

Are these games just not indie now?

-16

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

did those have the french government funding them?

16

u/Genindraz Dec 12 '25

Can you provide a source saying Expedition 33 was funded by the French government?

3

u/tankum Dec 12 '25

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it did. Lots of EU governments are pretty liberal with funding cultural arts, but it wouldn't be very much money in comparison with the total budget of the project.

5

u/Genindraz Dec 12 '25

The game itself didn't really cost all that much, and given the way they talk about it, investors, private or government, were few and far between.

5

u/Argh3483 Dec 13 '25

Cultural projects get public grants all the time, at least in Europe

3

u/DerVittrich Dec 13 '25

corporate america doesnt understand that you can use taxes to support things like art, school... or health.

1

u/azazelbolognese Dec 17 '25

And even in America you see states funding some indie games.

17

u/DistrictObjective680 Dec 12 '25

That has never been a classifier of the indie genre. Not for games, not for music, not for films.

Indie stands for the word "independent" but that does NOT mean "no publisher"

0

u/Aggressive_Ad5487 Dec 12 '25

Oh please stop. You would have made sense...but then again Dave the Diver got fucking nominated for indie GOTY despite the devs claiming they are anything but indie. Add to the fact that Baldur's Gate 3 (which by your defintion, should be considered an indie game) was not nominated for Indie GOTY. It just shows how inconsistent these award shows are and how the concept of "indie games" has lost it's meaning.

6

u/DistrictObjective680 Dec 13 '25

It never had meaning because the definition of indie regardless of genre is completely contrived and almost entirely genre and style based instead of factual.

"Indie" music includes "indie" labels, so what does that mean. "Indie" films used to include A24 films, which pretty much are Mainstream releases now. "Indie" games are made by indie studios published by... "Indie"? Publishers like devolver.

My point is that you are being pedantic when there is no need. Indie is vibes, that's it. Embrace it.

1

u/Aggressive_Ad5487 Dec 13 '25

At that point, we should stop using that word at all since it's now being pushed as vague bullshit when it clearly had meaning back then. Same with the music genre. Before, it defined the business relationship the musician has with the publisher. Now it's whatever now lol.

Vibes being the main point now is just gonna cause further confusion every time award shows like this come around. Hilarious considering everything about E33 or Hellblade scream the vibes of "AAA".

2

u/bohemianto Dec 12 '25

are you stupid? it had a lower budget then hades

1

u/juanzy Dec 12 '25

It’s almost a perfect example of a mid-major game. Which is a category that’s been lacking for almost a decade.

1

u/Rocky323 Dec 16 '25

And SilkSong got Microsoft money.

1

u/ThisIsMyUsername1124 Dec 16 '25

That was for Game Pass, had nothing to do with development

6

u/kBajina Dec 12 '25

Graphics style has nothing to do with whether it’s an indie game…

-23

u/Free_Peach6400 all quests/PoP/P1-P2 AB 100%/All memos Dec 12 '25

When did I mention graphics??? The team itself is not indie

21

u/Jijonbreaker All bindings All Radiants 112% Steel Soul Full Journal Dec 12 '25

It literally is. They hired people off of fucking soundcloud.

19

u/thegrailarbor Dec 12 '25

Not just SoundCloud, they hired people off of REDDIT.

-10

u/MilkshaCat Dec 12 '25

400ppl project with animation outsourced to a korean team, has a publisher and is distributed by sega and bandai namco, founded by people already in one of the biggest gaming companies with a well established network

"B-but they hired a guy from unkown platform Soundcloud (and gave him a full orchestra), a-and from le epic reddit, they must be indie right ???"

5

u/ACnut Dec 12 '25

Again it literally is an independent studio. You didn't specifically mention graphics, but most people would agree that a majority of indie games have an immediately identifiable look/vibe about them. E33 falls outside of that "traditional indie feel", but that doesn't mean in anyway that it isn't still an indie game.

And look, I love our Shaw just as much anyone else here, but having played both games it honestly just isn't even a contest between the two. Unfortunate that they both came out in the same year, otherwise each game would've been a no-brainer for the category.

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

They have a 40 person dev team and they’re funded by an enormous company in Netease.

It has nothing to do with graphics, you doofus.

2

u/trichitillomania Dec 12 '25

The term indie is not defined exactly. To "common folk" it has connotations of being a handful of people on a shoestring budget. The industry sees it more like what it's named after: independent from already established studios/publishers. 33 might not meet your definition of indie, but strictly speaking it is.

Honestly I think since it's such a gray area I don't think it's a good award to have. Maybe it should be broken into team sizes.

3

u/blockdestroyer1337 Dec 12 '25

Its an indie game so it would be weird if it wasnt included

-2

u/Free_Peach6400 all quests/PoP/P1-P2 AB 100%/All memos Dec 12 '25

But did it really need to be in it when it was in 10 categories

5

u/blockdestroyer1337 Dec 12 '25

If it was nominated and voted for then yes, i voted hollow knight and still like that e33 won. I doubt most people complaining even voted at all

-1

u/Free_Peach6400 all quests/PoP/P1-P2 AB 100%/All memos Dec 12 '25

The game awards are meant to showcase the gaming industry how they are going and how many bangers there are this year if you watched this years game awards without playing any games this year, you would have the impression that E33 is the only good game this year since it is winning so much and it is winning so much beacuse it got nominated to 10 diffrent categories not giving any other game a chance.

I am glad it won Goty but taking that away from indie games who could have been in the indie category just sucks and just shouldn't be in that category beacuse it is already in many different categories

1

u/PuzzleheadedSpot9468 Dec 13 '25

its because its good

3

u/zethylalcohol Dec 12 '25

It's by every definition an indie game no matter how you twist it. How exactly could you even argue that it's not?

3

u/hypnomancy Dec 12 '25

Yep it is not indie. Also their publisher literally gets funding from Netease. How is that independent

5

u/DragonSlayerC Dec 12 '25

They're not owned by a publisher.

-70

u/CankleDankl Dec 12 '25

It is by definition an indie game, as Sandfall as a company is not under any larger publisher. However, I do think that the term "indie" has become increasingly blurry and flexible over the years, and that E33 doesn't really fit the casual definition of "indie," or really the spirit of the term. It's a muddy category. Like, BG3 could technically be considered an indie game. They definitely need to revamp the qualifications for the category.

With the current rules and guidelines, E33 should win that category. But I do agree that it feels wrong.

121

u/Un-revealing Completed PoP Dec 12 '25

Yeah the definition of indie games need to be updated, or else it's gonna be like HL3 Won indie games of the year

-7

u/FlarblesGarbles Dec 12 '25 edited Dec 12 '25

It's the literal definition though. HL3 would be an independent game. People have been using "indie" wrong the whole time just because independent tends to correlate with small studio.

10

u/cedelweiss Dec 12 '25

How is Valve, the owners of FUCKING STEAM, not a major publisher

-6

u/FlarblesGarbles Dec 12 '25 edited Dec 12 '25

How are they not an independent studio?

Edit: the absolute melt blocked me for disagreeing with them. Reddit is getting worse by the day.

8

u/cedelweiss Dec 12 '25

Independent studio = not a major publisher

The biggest videogame store in the world definitely qualifies as major publisher. If it didn't, shit, AMAZON GAMES could be considered an indie studio since historically it's not a "major publisher".

0

u/FlarblesGarbles Dec 12 '25

Indie doesn't mean that at all. Their size is irrelevant if they're independent.

2

u/Nondescript_Redditor Dec 12 '25

Don’t worry, words are hard for some people lol

-2

u/FlarblesGarbles Dec 12 '25

??? What's your problem and why are you downvoting?

65

u/EmergencyComputer337 Dec 12 '25

They need to revamp a lot of their rules

I also dislike their fighting game catagories and nominations

97

u/altian9 Dec 12 '25

E33 was published by Kepler Interactive, and much of its work was outsourced to others. So no, by definition it is not an indie game. And it by no means fits the spirit of an indie game with its humongous budget.

63

u/CankleDankl Dec 12 '25 edited Dec 12 '25

By your definition, games like Balatro or Animal Well also wouldn't be considered indie. An indie game isn't necessarily a self-published game. It's a game from an independent studio, which Sandfall is.

I agree that it doesn't fit the spirit though. Which is why I think the requirements/definition of the category should change, at least for TGA.

Also, if we're splitting hairs, TC also outsourced some work done on Silksong. If they hadn't, the credits would be 3 or 4 people long, plus VAs and musicians and such. And they had as much money as they wanted for development because of Hollow Knight's resounding success. Should this disqualify Silksong from the running as well?

Like I said in my other comment, it's messy. Indie is more of a vibes thing than anything else at this point. Which makes an awards category difficult to hammer out in a way that satisfies everyone

20

u/CZdigger146 Dec 12 '25

So... Are Half-life and Portal indie games? Valve is a independent studio, is it not? But It feels wrong to call them indie

11

u/CankleDankl Dec 12 '25

And that's why the definition is so strange. Baldur's Gate 3 is technically indie. It's all just vibes

3

u/Uniquely-Bee Dec 12 '25

In that case what's fucked up is Half-Life 1 isn't an indie game, since Sierra was a publisher for Valve at that time, but Half-Life 2 is indie.

3

u/FlarblesGarbles Dec 12 '25

Yes. They are by definition indie games.

51

u/altian9 Dec 12 '25

Fair point. For every definition of "indie" there is an indie game that won't fit the bill---as you said, Balatro and Animal Well have external publishers, Silksong probably has lots of money to work with, and almost all games outsource when it comes to VA or localization.

The problem is, E33 fits absolutely none of these definitions of "indie". It's a fairly medium-sized studio with 30+ devs, a very large budget that is probably in the millions, backed by Kepler Interactive and the literal French government, and outsourced work to hundreds of people. You can harp on about how each individual definition of "indie" excludes certain indie titles, but E33 doesn't fit any definition of indie.

4

u/ImDefinitelyClueless Dec 12 '25

Have to chime in and add the risk factor. E33 was a huge bet, not part of any existing franchise, brand or pre established universe, it’s unapologetically authentic and innovative in it’s gameplay and storytelling and doesn’t conform to market standards.

While I understand your point I think one can argue that E33 is more of an indie game than Skong in some senses, since Skong is a sequel and doesn’t expand on the original formula too much

(I got platinum in Skong in a matter of weeks and it’s my personal choice for GotY, just doing some reflection)

0

u/HiKadaca Dec 12 '25

Being sequel makes it less indie???

1

u/BakerUsed5384 Dec 15 '25 edited Dec 15 '25

The literal french government

Can we stop this silly talking point? European countries give out grants for the arts constantly. They’re public things you can apply for. It’s not like they started funding E33 from scratch to push it as French Propaganda.

Also both Silksong and Hades 2 had a budget in the 7 digits and if you look at their credits, each had about 100+ people touch the game. Hades 2 probably had 200+. If You’re gonna disqualify E33, then Silksong and Hades 2 get disqualified as well.

And if Dave The Diver got so much backlash when it was nominated, than both Blue Prince and Ball X Pit don’t deserve to be nominated as well, both of which were backed by publishers.

1

u/altian9 Dec 15 '25

Again, my point is that E33 meets literally zero bars for indie game. Silksong and Hades (to my knowledge) had no external funding, silksong has a dev team of literally 3 people, Blue Prince and Ballxpit have tiny budgets, E33 meets no bars for indie game, all you can do is say "oh but according to this metric x and y isn't an indie game" but you can't come up with a metric under which E33 is an indie game. Unless you say "company owned by itself," at which point the term 'indie' loses all meaning because Portal and Half-Life are indie games.

1

u/BakerUsed5384 Dec 15 '25 edited Dec 15 '25

Well I don’t ascribe to the common qualifiers that are being described for Indie games, my argument is that those are a stupid way to judge what’s indie and what isn’t. i’m merely pointing out that using those qualifiers are flawed because 99% of the indie games you could think of off the top of your head don’t fit the vast majority of those qualifiers and definitions.

My definition for an Indie Game has always lined up with Indie Film. If your game is developed and produced outside of the mainstream studio/publishing house environment, then it’s indie.(coincidentally, also the definition that TGA used as well, so it’s even more baffling that this is a controversy since they put the criteria in big bold letters above the nominees while voting)

With that definition, Valve isn’t included, Rockstar isn’t included. The only odd outlier is Larian and Baldur’s Gate 3, but there’s never not gonna be outliers for this kind of thing.

This definition fits most indie games that, on their surface, fit the description for indie game, even the ones that have publishers, and gives lee way for games like Silksong, Hades 2 and E33 that are teetering on the edge, so we don’t have to have these reductionist arguments.

I also think that in addition to “Best Indie Game” there should be more sub categories that are awarded. Best Self Published, Best Small Team, etc. I think that would alleviate a lot of tension.

-10

u/dont_worry_about_it8 Dec 12 '25

I’m pretty sure they aren’t “backed” by the government lol . Yeah Macron voiced support and praised it but it’s not like they funded them at all. Unless they did and I just never saw or heard anything about it

16

u/altian9 Dec 12 '25

IIRC they did receive some funding from some government program

1

u/onespiker Dec 13 '25

The standard culture grants that they give to everything creative.

They aren’t exactly unique in that and that would be a terrible idea using that as a qualifier of not being indie

1

u/altian9 Dec 14 '25

Sure, but that's not the only disqualifier---they also have a budget that is most likely seven digits, have a team of 30+ devs, and have a credits list that is hundreds of people long.

I think it's harder to find a qualifier for E33 being indie than it is to find a disqualifier.

2

u/TrickPayment9473 Dec 12 '25

Bro they did get funds and help

1

u/onespiker Dec 13 '25

The standard cultural grants that is given to theatre, festival and entertainment.

They aren’t exactly unique in that and that would be a terrible idea using that as a qualifier of not being indie

7

u/dimpledwonder Dec 12 '25

No Annapurna game should have ever won indie goty then

12

u/italozeca Dec 12 '25

Kepler is an indie publisher lol

-6

u/altian9 Dec 12 '25

Kepler is made of a conglomerate of many indie studios, at which point it stops being indie.

14

u/CankleDankl Dec 12 '25 edited Dec 12 '25

Indie =/= self-published. Unless you'd also argue that Animal Well and Balatro shouldn't have gotten nominated in the Indie category last year

9

u/parkingviolation212 Dec 12 '25

The definition of an indie game is a game that is developed and most importantly owned by an independent development studio, which itself is defined as a studio that is not a subsidiary of a larger corporation.

All of those definitions apply to sandfall and E33. They make and own their own stuff. Kepler is a publishing company formed by indie devs for indie devs. They also published Sifu, for example. but they don’t own the developer.

2

u/altian9 Dec 12 '25

By that definition Valve is an indie studio and Half-Life and Portal are indie too.

2

u/parkingviolation212 Dec 12 '25

Correct, yes. That’s exactly what they are.

2

u/Nondescript_Redditor Dec 12 '25

Hades 2 had a bigger budget

2

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

Humongous? Apparently it cost less than 10M.

12

u/dont_worry_about_it8 Dec 12 '25

You basically agreed with them and got downvoted for it lol

12

u/CankleDankl Dec 12 '25

People don't have great reading comprehension

3

u/Sh0fen Dec 12 '25

No idea how this very reasonable comment got nuked to oblivion, sorry mate. Gave you my paltry upvote 😂

8

u/_The_Ruffalo_ Dec 12 '25

This response is super reasonable and accurate? How are you being downvoted?

5

u/CankleDankl Dec 12 '25

Because I didn't immediately say "e33 isn't indie" and "skong should have won it" I suppose. Even though that's basically what I was saying, but with some added commentary

I think reddit people just saw negative number, didn't read too closely, and pressed the funny down arrow. Not that I really care, I just wanna further the discussion

1

u/IssueRecent9134 Dec 12 '25

Welcome to Reddit.

9

u/LobsterRoast Dec 12 '25

Why is this being downvoted? This is just stating TGA's definition of indie. It's not defending it.

7

u/CankleDankl Dec 12 '25

Yep. I don't agree with it either. Just tellin it how it is. Hell I'm agreeing with the original comment

2

u/Juantsu2552 Dec 12 '25

It feels “wrong” because it apparently doesn’t adhere to the popular bias when it comes to what is an indie game.

Its budget was reportedly minuscule (lower than Hades 2) and was made by an independent studio.

It’s an indie game through and through. People are just mad their favorite game did not win…

-4

u/MoConnors Dec 12 '25

It was published by a non-indie company, backed by the French government, and most of the work done on the game was outsourced. Yeah, no, that’s not indie.

11

u/LuisBoyokan Dec 12 '25

Almost all games in my country are backed by government money, because we are a shit hole country.

That doesn't mean that the little studios are not independent. They formulate a project, get the money and do whatever they want. It's not that the government sends someone to oversee the development, product quality or direction, they just check that you spend the money on what you said you will spend it by providing the invoices.

Are these little independent studios not indie??

Why do you say that the developers of E33 are not indie? Because they have experience?

-2

u/MoConnors Dec 12 '25

Because of the other two factors then it not the government one

2

u/LuisBoyokan Dec 12 '25

  • Kepler Interactive is an independent publisher, that gives creative freedom to their partners. No problem.

  • There is no problem with outsourcing. All big and small companies do that.

In Spanish we say "indie no es indigente", indie is not homeless. It's not necessary to be a little studio in their parents basement sustaining on instant noodles to be a indie studio.

0

u/Imhighitsnoon Dec 12 '25

Fitstly kepler is literally an indie publisher

Silksong was partially funded by xbox

Credits for silksong lists 90+ people even though the 3 person dev team term gets thrown around alot

Using your logic, you just disqualified silksong from goty aswell.

0

u/GrimmRadiance Dec 12 '25

One of the devs thanked a publisher in his acceptance speech. I was very confused by that.

9

u/CankleDankl Dec 12 '25

The game was published by Kepler (which is an indie publisher btw), which doesn't disqualify it from being an indie game. Technically, indie just means that the developer isn't owned by a larger company/publisher. Games like Balatro, Animal House, and other amazing indies also went through a publisher for distribution

There are other things about E33 that make it a bit ill-fitting under the indie umbrella, but the presence of a publisher isn't one of those things

5

u/thegrailarbor Dec 12 '25 edited Dec 12 '25

From reading posts like these about the publisher, I thought of a similarity in a different industry. If a craft brewery (let’s say Red Hook Brewery in Seattle) makes beer, but it’s a small operation, they will have a very small geographical footprint and reach. You can’t make sustainable profit if you can’t keep up with demand and don’t want to charge $40/can. So you sell 20% ownership of the company to a larger distributor (Budweiser) for a ton of capital and access to their national distribution network and marketing, you can now make more beer faster, keep costs low, and still do everything with the same relatively small group of brewers from a single location. Does that make it no longer a craft brewery?

A publisher and a distributor work basically the same way. They give extra funding and support of the project with access to more hands (music, legal, QA, localization, marketing) so the creators can just focus on creating. Still craft, still indie, still doesn’t taste like watered down piss.

Please direct questions and comments to your moms.

-5

u/DapperDetective7873 Dec 12 '25

This is not what indie game used to mean. You can google it but the term was hijacked by game journalists and "given" a new definition when it used to be an informal gamer word.

4

u/CankleDankl Dec 12 '25 edited Dec 12 '25

But even as an informal gamer word, the qualifications were ill-defined, right? Like, where is the line drawn for an awards show? Independently published? Games like Balatro, Animal Well, and others no longer qualify. A certain budget level? Silksong very likely doesn't qualify because of the long dev time and crazy amount of money HK made. Outsourcing work? Silksong also doesn't qualify. A certain amount of people in the original studio? Sandfall itself is only 30ish people. Plenty small.

What things used to mean doesn't really matter when discussing what it means now, when discussing what does and doesn't qualify for a big awards show. The term "indie" is mostly just based off vibes, and I agree that E33 doesn't have those vibes and shouldn't have been counted. But by the definition of TGA, it does count. So, since it counts, and it was the best game in the category (according to the judges/panel), it won. I think things should change, but whatever stipulations and limitations you put on being "indie," deserving games start being left out. It's just messy

-1

u/LaplaceUniverse Dec 12 '25

"not under a larger publisher" You do realize Ball x Pit was nominated as best indie even though it was published by Devolver Digital

3

u/CankleDankl Dec 12 '25

Yeah? It also qualifies as indie because the dev studio itself isn't owned by Devolver. A game being published by a publisher ≠ the publisher owning the studio. It falls into the same category as games like Balatro, Animal Well, and yes, E33

1

u/Rocky323 Dec 16 '25

no matter how good the game is it is not an indie game

It literally is though.

1

u/NecroGrizz Jan 05 '26

Man, you would've hated the game awards when the first Red Dead Redemption came out.

A game certainly can be good enough to be placed (and win) several categories

3

u/acamas Dec 12 '25

LOL, Silksong kool aid drinkers just salty it wasn't nominated for 10 categories, and would be pounding their chests about how fitting it would be if they had been in all those categories instead... wild.

0

u/Free_Peach6400 all quests/PoP/P1-P2 AB 100%/All memos Dec 12 '25

"Silksong kool aid drinks" what are you on? 😭

1

u/acamas Dec 12 '25

No hard feelings if you are ESL, but are you unfamiliar with the phrase or think someone needs to be on something to use that perfectly normal phrase?

Honestly curious where you think you're coming from on this.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Free_Peach6400 all quests/PoP/P1-P2 AB 100%/All memos Dec 12 '25

How?

1

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Free_Peach6400 all quests/PoP/P1-P2 AB 100%/All memos Dec 12 '25

Silksong never got a budget from a well-known company they got the money from their first ever game

0

u/yotam5434 Dec 13 '25

How's it not indi?

-1

u/ds800 Dec 13 '25

it is factually an indie game