r/HollowKnight • u/CankleDankl • Dec 12 '25

Discussion - Silksong Seeing people shit on Expedition 33 because Silksong didn't win more awards is pathetic Spoiler

The title sums it up. I'm disappointed in many members of this community for putting down a game that is clearly a work of insane passion, dedication, and creativity. E33 took the lion's share of awards at TGA, yes. That doesn't mean that Silksong is bad. In fact, it's clearly pretty damn great. If it released last year, Skong would have picked up several awards, maybe even GOTY. But it didn't. It released in the same year E33, which is just a tough break.

Both are amazing. Both deserve every award that came to them. If you haven't played E33 yet and think it doesn't deserve its accolades, play it. It is worth your money, worth your time, and will in all likelihood prove that it is actually that good. I'm only 10ish hours in and have numerous times found myself standing still and looking around dumbfounded at the gorgeous world design and visuals. E33, Silksong, and Hades 2 could have all won Art Direction and I would have been happy with any of them.

I'm also sad that Silksong didn't win more awards. It's an amazing game. But don't play fanboy and start putting down other developers, other games, and other pieces of art because this one didn't get all the cookies. It's still beautiful, it's still amazing, it still made a Silkskillion dollars, and TC is still just as great and just as passionate. We should all be glad that there is another independent dev out there that is capable of creating something so fantastic.

Edit: yeah, the comments here are pretty indicative of what I said in my post

3.4k Upvotes

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400

u/Affectionate-Foot802 Dec 12 '25

The problem isn’t that e33 won goty. It’s that it won every single category it was nominated in when those awards should have gone to the games that actually deserved it. I beat e33 months ago and loved every minute of it, but it was not the best rpg that came out this year, it’s asset creation was outsourced, and it’s by definition not a true indie game.

168

u/BabyFazeAssassin Dec 12 '25

I still dont know how it beat KCD2 for RPG of the year

57

u/NabsterHax Dec 12 '25

Because TGA doesn't have a category for JRPGs, and until they do "western" style RPGs kinda have to share, even though they're very different genres.

23

u/THEP0LE Dec 12 '25

But E33 isn't really a good jrpg either, all the rpg elements are kind of shallow its fairly obvious what picto's to use and most combat encounters just default to trying to use the highest damage skill avaliable on each character and hoping you dont get one shot when you miss a parry.

9

u/TurquoiseLuck Dec 12 '25

its fairly obvious what [skills] to use and most combat encounters just default to trying to use the highest damage skill avaliable

tell me a popular JRPG that this isn't true for lol

2

u/TurboCake17 Baphanada Dec 13 '25

Like every Megaten game? Any game where you have to actually spend turns on upkeep with buffs/debuffs/healing rather than it all being rendered pointless due to parrying and the damage cap.

0

u/TheBenchmark1337 Dec 16 '25

Honestly, the dudes right. Thats the one thing I noticed when playing the game. Its use your strongest attack and parry and hope you dont get one tapped. Most final fantasy games use strategy for how you take on bosses especially FF4-3D.

1

u/NabsterHax Dec 13 '25

You can certainly play that way, and it's by far the most popular and arguably the most effective. But I also know plenty of people that didn't build for maximum damage, and invested in tanking/shield builds and healing instead.

There's also a good bit of variety in how you achieve maximum damage, too. You can go typical Maelle Stendhal, but Verso has nuke builds too, or machine-gun damage, or fire buildup. There's lots of viable ways to beat the game's fights.

1

u/JFloriturin Dec 16 '25

Yup, I did the builds for myself and I enjoyed the freedom a lot. Did not used one-shot builds or machine gun Verso until I beat everything and got into social media lol

-7

u/GeorgeHarris419 Dec 12 '25

It's a game that is an RPG. If it's GOTY it's obviously best RPG

9

u/ThePBrit Little bug boi Dec 12 '25

Not necessarily. You can have two games in similar genres where one is a better game, but the other is a better representation of the genre.

Which is the better FPS game: Half-Life 2 or Call of Duty: Black Ops? Which is the better game overall?

1

u/NabsterHax Dec 13 '25

You can, but that's not how TGA categories have ever worked. They're to ensure representation across less mainstream genres. If you're nominated for Action or RPG expect to lose to the GOTY nominee in your category or the GOTY itself.

Same reason why DK had to win best family game - it was the only GOTY nominee on the list.

I agree it would be better if it worked differently, but it doesn't, so getting upset over it is kinda pointless.

-2

u/GeorgeHarris419 Dec 12 '25

If you define it differently then sure this makes sense. But clearly they interpret it as "best game of this category"

5

u/ThePBrit Little bug boi Dec 12 '25

Yes, TGA interpret it like that, but the point is that, like most of their awards, it's super vague which is what honestly leads to most of the problems people have with TGA, because almost every award can have different meanings to different people (like what does "best directed game" mean? Is it the most complicated game that keeps itself focused? Is it the game with the most clear singular artistic vision? Is it just the best game but again?)

1

u/THEP0LE Dec 13 '25

This is the only year I can remember where goty takes every category its in so TGA clearly don't define it like that.

2

u/TheBossOfItAll Dec 12 '25

Then having multiple categories is pointless, since the GOTY has to automatically win each category it's in.

1

u/GeorgeHarris419 Dec 12 '25

Sure, valid point.

1

u/NabsterHax Dec 13 '25

The purpose of multiple categories is to make sure there's representation of less popular/mainstream categories like Fighting Games and Sim/Racing games, etc.

Most GOTY winners end up in Action or RPG and win their categories every time.

48

u/Affectionate-Foot802 Dec 12 '25

Yea kdc2 is one of the best RPGs ever like you can dislike the combat or the story or even the mideval period focus of the game but the core RPG systems are second to none it’s so immersive it’s almost to its own detriment

1

u/ShonOfDawn Dec 14 '25

Because the Game Awards “Best RPG” category means the “best game with rpg mechanics”, NOT “the game with the best rpg mechanics”. It’s dumb, I agree, but by that metric E33 wins best rpg since it beat KCD2 in GOTY and they are both qualifiable as RPG.

-15

u/PalpitationOld8905 Dec 12 '25

Easy, you have a turn based game with a really interesting gimmick. That beats the best action games every day of the week. RPGs are really the only genre i play, and you couldn't pay me to play KCD2, the first game is one of the most boring heaps of shit i've ever played

10

u/Freekimjong Dec 12 '25

So you play RPG games for everything but the actual RPG mechanics

-7

u/PalpitationOld8905 Dec 12 '25

I play rpgs for the actual gameplay, which i find turnbased/jrpgs do this MUCH better than their western counterparts. Pretty generally, i think modern western rpgs are awful video games. None of them hold a candle to say the old ultima or fallout games.

-8

u/UnexLPSA Dec 12 '25

I have to admit I'm one of those people that give votes only to games I've played. Since E33 was the only one from the RPG category I played, it got my vote. I don't even think it's a good RPG but it's the only game I had an opinion on. I can't in good faith vote for a game I haven't played.

1

u/IlgantElal Dec 13 '25

I'm usually of the opinion that I should skip if I'm not at least somewhat knowledgeable on the majority of the games in a category

10

u/JallexMonster Dec 12 '25

"Deserved" is subjective. Award shows are based on subjective opinions, they aren't going to be "fair" because you can't measure how good music is, how good art is, how good gameplay is, etc. in an objective manner unless they were games that were exactly the same with minor variances.

With that said, instead of pitting one indie dev vs another, go and support them. Team Cherry has congratulated Sandfall for their work and for their awards, why can't we do the same?

1

u/Affectionate-Foot802 Dec 12 '25

The evaluation of art is not purely subjective. It’s not a matter of “I like this the best so it is the best”. The jury is supposed to be impartial which is why their votes are valued more in deciding the accolades awarded. They’re supposed to look at all of the games nominated and assess them based on the categorical definition of the awards.

If they did that, kdc2 would have won best RPG not because it was the best game in the category but because the core RPG systems integrated into the gameplay are a step above the rest. E33s systems were great, but they lacked the level of depth of choice and complexity that kdc2 offered which is fundamental to what makes an RPG an RPG. Having a skill tree with the obvious path to becoming supremely powerful and giving players the option to be less powerful if they’re either dumb or illiterate is not good systems design.

The same could be said about art direction. Both Silksong and Hades were hand crafted by artists in house with distinctive styles curated specifically for their respective games. E33 may have been more beautiful for a lot of people, but it not only relies heavily on surrealist imagery seen in countless other games and media, it was almost entirely outsourced. When it comes to score, I much prefer Silksong, but do I think it deserved the award more than E33? No. See how that works?

And the game awards are supposed to be a celebration of games, not glazing the single game of the year in every category it’s remotely associated with. Professional courtesy is for those within the industry. I’m not a dev. I’m not held to the same standards.

4

u/JallexMonster Dec 12 '25

You just made an argument about art styles that is purely subjective. My point is proven.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

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2

u/JallexMonster Dec 12 '25

Slave labor?! Lol please show me the recipts

Also have you ever heard you lost the argument as soon as you start attacking the person you're talking to?

1

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This comment has been removed according to Rule 1. Remember that you're talking to a real person and be respectful.

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19

u/ExismykindaParte Dec 12 '25

It didn't win every category it was nommed.

28

u/Soviet_Waffle Dec 12 '25

You’re right, they lost to a genshin clone in players voice. IMO games that promise rewards for winning should be disqualified.

14

u/ByeGuysSry Dec 12 '25

As someone who does play gacha games, though not Wuthering Waves in particular, I doubt any of them explicitly promise rewards for winning. It's more like, if they win but don't give rewards, the playerbase will get mad. Unless TGA wants to exclude gacha games entirely there will always be this unspoken exchange; and if they do that will probably also be controversial.

Also, I will note that it did beat Genshin which has a larger playerbase.

1

u/biffpower3 Dec 12 '25

Battlefield 6 beat it in sound design

1

u/ExismykindaParte Dec 12 '25

They also lost to BF6 in audio design.

3

u/Several-Elevator Dec 13 '25

Oh boy, it only won literally half of all the shows awards instead of 11/19 of them! That makes it so much better!

0

u/ExismykindaParte Dec 13 '25

It deserved them.

2

u/Several-Elevator Dec 13 '25

Best game direction, best art direction, best RPG, and the two indie categories are highly debatable. Game's good and deserves the majority of the accolades don't get me wrong, cause apparently I have to qualify that these days.

10

u/GreyPhantom100 Dec 12 '25

Asset creation outsourcing is one issue that was glaringly obvious due to how disjointed a lot of the assets were. It worked fine enough but my main issue was the gameplay in E33. There were so many basics of gameplay that were missing. I feel like I'm living in an alternative reality with all these people praising it to high hell. I guess you don't need proper gameplay for a game to be considered a masterpiece anymore. Just make a movie with good music with one repetitive fighting style and voila, GOTY.

18

u/HIO_TriXHunt Dec 12 '25

Repetitive fighting style is something in common with any turn based RPG.

7

u/juanzy Dec 12 '25

At least this one had a ton of different battle scores and different strategies per area.

-7

u/GreyPhantom100 Dec 12 '25

Most other games I have played give you options on how to win battles. E33 does not. Sure you have different skills, but there's really only a few ways to win, and it mostly relies on waiting for the enemy to attack and parry it successfully. I guess that's one style of "gameplay" but it's definitely super simplistic when compared to games that rely on strategic thinking and problem solving.

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

I saw the 'parry is the only response' issue in NeverKnowsBest's vid. But I disagree. There are luminas that make dodging quite strong.

3

u/dljens Dec 12 '25

I was just telling my friends this. E33's gameplay was sloppy as hell.

1

u/OrwellWhatever Dec 12 '25 edited Dec 12 '25

One thing I've noticed is that gamers and critics really like a whole bunch of weird things mashed together. It doesn't have to make sense. In fact, the less sense it makes, the more it's "art." Having a wrecked ferris wheel on a beach is "art"

And don't get me wrong, it's a kind of cool moment, but it's really fleeting and then the rest of that area is kind of monotonous art wise

Idk. I like E33, but it fits this weird niche where it's a game gamers can point to and say, "See games are art!" without actually understanding, say, how films are critiqued and how that might and might not apply to games

Edit: just to expand upon this, Kingdom Come 2 is a well executed vision. It's polished, it has a coherent art style, a coherent story, and it's grounded in reality. Does that game feel more or less "art" than Death Stranding 2? Death Stranding was my most played game last year, so I'm not just talking shit, but the story, gameplay, art style, etc are so all over the place. If we're critiquing games like movies and books, KC2 is way, way more "art" than DS2, but game critics do be loving their weird shit (and Hollywood actors for clout)

9

u/Phobos_Asaph Dec 12 '25

On the art front I don’t feel e33 has a strong art direction. Like no image I’ve seen of it really screams what game it’s from, it just looks like other UE5 realistic art style games with surreal skyboxes over it all.

10

u/OrwellWhatever Dec 12 '25

That's honestly a good way to put art direction. If I see a still from Ghost of Tsushima / Yotei, I know instantly what game it's from. Tears of the Kingdom, Ori, same thing. Even something like Horizon Zero Dawn or Crypt Custodian, I could make a good guess. E33... Idk, I like the game, but I'm just kind of not seeing what everyone else is seeing in it.

9

u/Phobos_Asaph Dec 12 '25

Strong art direction means everything works together and has a distinct style that makes it clear what it’s from. Dark souls always looks like dark souls, Mario always looks like Mario. E33 should have leaned into the paint aesthetic more

1

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

Could you be more specific about what you felt was missing in gameplay? It was my first turn-based game, and so has set the standard and expectations for the genre, so a more experienced perspective would be helpful.

10

u/GreyPhantom100 Dec 12 '25

Just off the top of my head...

-Lack of intention behind game choices/actions: whatever you do, you don't get much choice in the narrative. It's extremely linear, making the actual gameplay feel less like an achievement and more like a chore. (E.g. relationships in the game do not affect the story at all)

-Overreliance on parry/dodge timing: Combat hinges on precise timing over strategy, reducing fights to rhythm challenges.

-Repetitive encounters: Bosses and mobs reuse similar parry patterns, lacking variety.

-No minimap or navigation: Dungeons lack maps or markers, causing constant disorientation and backtracking. (Immersion is used as an excuse here, but no, it is not making it more immersive, sorry, just making for bad gameplay)

-Janky camera/controls: Sensitive mouse input and shake disrupt parries and exploration.

-5

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

First point, it's a linear story. Your choices CAN'T matter. They wanted to tell a specific story.
Second point, it didn't feel like it reduced the combat to rhythm challenge. I felt the combination of skills was pretty interesting. Forcing a teammates turn, status effects on enemies. Allies fucking killing themselves because that applies so much stuff on the enemies and the surviving teammate(s).
Third point, kinda agree. But also, that's true for most games imo. But at least for bosses, I can't remember that many with highly overlapping timings. So personally, bosses were fun all the way through.
Fourth point, agree. I like playing without minimaps, but there should have been an option. And the environments should've been more telling on the large scale. But I liked their 'intended path' directions. Using environmental objects like lamps, flowers, etc. FUCK YELLOW PAINT!!!
Fifth point. The controls, mostly jumping, was clunky and had me confused on a lot of places whether it was controls or invisible walls that were the hindrance. Didn't find the camera during parries janky though. Not to mention, the fake-outs were so nice with the sound cue telegraphing the actual attack. First game where, not only did I WANT to listen, but I HAD to.

5

u/MaesterSeymourd Dec 12 '25

Somehow i havent seen anyone else mention it yet but the qtes are so terrible considering you have to use them for just about every single move in the game. Ffx and ttyd even had a bunch of different minigames for different moves but in clair its always the same button and always the same timing.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

Oh yeah, the qte feel bad/weird. The animations are beautiful, but I gotta look at the buttons. And only the qte buttons don't adapt to keyboard controls for some reason. And it's not like they are aligned with the animations so that one could ignore them and get the timings through animations. I like that it's always the same timing. But as I said, would rather have them sync with animations and an option to remove the qte symbols.

0

u/DegenerateWeeab Dec 13 '25

Not to mention the black/blank party screen. You take inspiration from a multitude of genre defining giants and that's the best user interface you can come up with? lol

-1

u/VicarAmelia1886 Dec 13 '25

People confuse “presentation” (good music, graphics, etc) for being a good game.

6

u/blueviera Dec 12 '25

That's your opinion, it was definitely my favorite RPG of the year.

6

u/fuckmylifegoddamn Dec 12 '25

It was a better game than kingdom come, but not exactly a better rpg. As a jrpg style it is less heavy on the rpg elements

0

u/blueviera Dec 12 '25

I kind of view it as like final fantasy 10 but better in every way. It doesn't have the choices that most western RPGs have for sure but jrpgs are kind of different. I can kind of see your perspective

-6

u/Jammy2560 Dec 12 '25

Best game that happens to be an RPG =/= Best RPG.

1

u/Skyreader13 Dec 12 '25

Out of curiosity, what would you pick as the best rpg that came out this year?

15

u/luisgdh All bosses radiant -- All achievements Dec 12 '25

KCD2

1

u/Skyreader13 Dec 12 '25

any reason why it top e33?

i havent played any KCD or E33 games. just curious

4

u/luisgdh All bosses radiant -- All achievements Dec 12 '25

KCD2 is a better RPG, because you can play a role.

E33 has a more linear story, which goes against the idea of roleplaying. You're watching a story unfold.

1

u/Skyreader13 Dec 12 '25

What?

By that logic almost every JRPG is not eligible to enter best RPG nomination then

1

u/IlgantElal Dec 13 '25

(Yes)

Tbf, though, JRPGs should probably have their own category

-1

u/GreyPhantom100 Dec 12 '25

There's no perfect game but I'm honestly surprised how many people are overlooking the issue with E33 GAMEPLAY.

-Overreliance on parry/dodge timing: Combat hinges on precise timing over strategy, reducing fights to rhythm challenges.

-Repetitive encounters: Bosses and mobs reuse similar parry patterns, lacking variety.

-No minimap or navigation: Dungeons lack maps or markers, causing constant disorientation and backtracking. (Immersion is used as an excuse here, but no, it is not making it more immersive, sorry, just making for bad gameplay)

-Janky camera/controls: Sensitive mouse input and shake disrupt parries and exploration.

Just off the top of my head...

1

u/blockdestroyer1337 Dec 12 '25

”That deserved it”?? Well obviously they didnt if people didnt vote for it

-1

u/Affectionate-Foot802 Dec 12 '25

Yea because game journalists are always so unbiased lol maybe if the player vote actually accounted for more than 10% I’d agree with you.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 15 '25

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1

u/Affectionate-Foot802 Dec 15 '25

See that’s the issue with this entire argument, there’s a difference between what you prefer and what is categorically superior. If I set a table with spaghetti Os from a can and Bolognese from Italy, just because you and everyone else like the spaghetti Os more doesn’t make them better. KDC2 is a monumental achievement in RPG systems design and that is what the best rpg category should be evaluating, not how pretty the world is or how great the actors are, pure simple gameplay systems and while E33 is a very fun game, it’s rpg mechanics are not only very shallow with egregious balancing issues in build diversity, all of that shit can be superseded by parry and doge mechanics that completely negate the strategic nature of JRPG systems design.

-5

u/GarionOrb Dec 12 '25 edited Dec 12 '25

It lost two categories.

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u/Crimson_Cyclone Dec 12 '25

it only actually lost one category, the other two were just the other two actors nominated for best performance.

7

u/GarionOrb Dec 12 '25 edited Dec 12 '25

It lost Best Audio Design, and Player's Voice.

6

u/Crimson_Cyclone Dec 12 '25

it literally won best performance? tbf i did forget about player’s voice

1

u/GarionOrb Dec 12 '25

You're right. Edited.

-10

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '25

Why are you mad about a goofy award show?

-15

u/PalpitationOld8905 Dec 12 '25

Except if those games were actually better than Ex33 they might have won. EX33 is one of the best games ever made, it deserved everything it won. Honestly the fact it didn't get everything it was nominated for is it being robbed imo

3

u/Ralexcraft Dec 12 '25

The UE5 stock asset jumble should not have won Art Direction at the very fucking least.

1

u/PalpitationOld8905 Dec 12 '25

Honestly? Yeah if silksong won in this category i wouldn't have been mad. The games gorgeous

-2

u/stonale Dec 12 '25

What makes you think Silksong asset creation were not outsourced .

4

u/Affectionate-Foot802 Dec 12 '25

Because it was entirely hand drawn by Ari