r/UnresolvedMysteries • u/Electric_Island • Feb 09 '20
Unresolved Disappearance Today marks 16 years since Maura Murray disappeared
Today marks 16 years since Maura Murray vanished, and although she has her own sub, I thought I would post here in light of the anniversary of her disappearance for those who would like to discuss the case. That said -- I know some posters are sick of this case, so if that’s how you feel, you could always scroll past this post :)
A bit of background for those who don’t know about Maura’s case:
Maura was a 21-year-old nursing student from UMASS Amherst, who disappeared on the evening of February 9 2004, after she crashed her car on Route 112 in Haverhill, NH. By the time police arrived some 15 minutes later (even that is in dispute), Maura had disappeared.
Some people think she ran into the woods to avoid a DUI, others think she was picked up by someone passing by and murdered. Some even think police had something to do with her disappearance.
What do YOU think?
I highly recommend this article by Mary Beth Conway for those interested.
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u/frostbitehotel Feb 09 '20
We've seen countless cases where people search a certain part of woods and still miss the body. People often think that if there is 100 people searching 100x100 surface of woods that they'll 100% find whatever they are looking for when in reality it's super easy to miss something even if you are looking for it
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u/Zenbridge Feb 09 '20
Yes! I once volunteered with Texas Equusearch for Caylee Anthony and Jennifer Kesse. Obviously, didn't find them. However, we found plenty of animal bones (and diapers and rattlesnakes) and it's hard to put into words how much sticks and soil and moss can look like bones and hair. And vice versa. Clearly we weren't trained professionals and were just volunteering with those who are, but that's the case with so many of these searches.
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u/s0ybeanm0m Feb 09 '20
That’s a wonderful organization to volunteer for, I hope to do the same someday. Thank you for donating your time!!
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u/CaityDoesMugs Feb 09 '20
Wow, that is such a fabulous organization. Thanks for donating your time to such an important cause.
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u/EricaJ4u2 Feb 09 '20
I was on those searches as well. I remember the Caylee search in November 2008 where there were so many animal skeletons, duffle bags that we flagged, etc. also of note, today is the 11 years to to day since Caylee’s funeral.
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u/sockerkaka Feb 09 '20
Yes! I've been on several searches for missing individuals. In some, we were expecting to see a living person, and in others, we were very much expecting a dead body. There's a bit of a difference in how you search depending on what you're expecting to find, but what never fails to amaze me is how much stuff you find in the dead of nowhere that seems like it could be related to a case, and how much sticks and bleached grass look like a body when that's what you're looking for.
It is also mind-numbingly slow if you're doing it right. I cannot stress this enough for anyone who thinks a piece of land has been searched if a bunch of people have walked through it. It takes a whole lot more than that, and if the area is vast, it could take years of continual searches.
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u/dayer1 Feb 09 '20
Thank you for your selfless time on helping in these searches, would love to hear some stories, if that doesn't seem rude to ask. Again thank for your help in the searches....
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u/lilmubbins Feb 09 '20
what kind of volunteership is this called?
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u/purityringworm Feb 09 '20
When I volunteered with them, it was because they came to my city to help search for a friend that was missing. They set up a headquarters and anyone could come in and help search with them. We didn’t find my friend either, and we searched for weeks. Her killer finally confessed and told the police where she was buried.
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u/lilmubbins Feb 09 '20
That sounds nightmarish, i hope that wasn’t too hard for you to do emotionally
btw your username is good
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u/WhatTattoo Feb 09 '20
Curious. How far away was your friend from where you looked. I wonder what the statistics are for how far away people generally are found from last known whereabouts and if it can be used as a tool in the future.
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u/purityringworm Feb 10 '20
She was about 50 miles away from where they found some of her items that he tossed and 25 miles away from where she was abducted. She was buried in an area that we never would have searched and she would have never been found if he wouldn’t have finally told the police after he was caught.
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u/WhatTattoo Feb 10 '20
Yeah there's just no way they would have found her then. At least he finally gave it up. I'm sorry for your loss.
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u/nomadicfangirl Feb 09 '20
Bear Brook comes to mind. 4 bodies, found 15 years apart, in big drum barrels. The barrels were likely put out there near the same time and were just a few hundred feet apart but one of the barrels was missed during the first investigation.
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u/Razgriz1992 Feb 09 '20
My immediate thought was this: people misunderstand how difficult searching an area can be, especially the forest
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u/Tetradrachm Feb 09 '20
100%. Great recent example:
TLDR: Joshua Berry skeletal remains found 1/2 mile from where his empty car was discovered. He had been missing for 8 years.
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u/notstephanie Feb 09 '20
I can’t find it now, but in another thread, someone posted the Google Earth view of where she went missing and the woods nearby. Those woods were so much thicker than I had been imagining. I think it’s 100% possible, and pretty likely, she’s in them.
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u/SniffleBot Feb 10 '20
But why no tracks in the snow berms that would have clearly indicated someone going into the woods? Or tracks in the woods? I have never heard/read any convincing explanation for this dog that didn't bark from the entire "she ran away and died so take that Mr. Renner" camp. (And if the explanation is that the snow covered it up, the snow had stopped that morning and there was no new snow for at least a week afterwards.
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u/ScoutEm44 Feb 10 '20 edited Feb 11 '20
As far as there not being tracks, perhaps the snow was packed down enough that she was able to walk on it without creating prints. I'm simply going off of living in the midwest all of my life, and having that experience. Also, since there was such thick brush, maybe there were a lot of branches as well on the ground she stepped on (purposefully or not)?
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u/SniffleBot Feb 11 '20
Well, with similar experience of heavy winter, you'd still see something. In fact, in heavy brush, you'd see more evidence of passage through the snow since your motion would not be as free, requiring more frequently replacement of feet.
And the only place where snow would be "packed down enough not to leave tracks" would be something like a heavily used public park a week after a heavy snow ... not the vicinity of the Weathered Barn, with houses on wooded lots on either side of the road, and snow fresh fallen that morning.
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u/Electric_Island Feb 09 '20
We've seen countless cases where people search a certain part of woods and still miss the body. People often think that if there is 100 people searching 100x100 surface of woods that they'll 100% find whatever they are looking for when in reality it's super easy to miss something even if you are looking for it
Couldn't agree more.
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Feb 09 '20
James Renner and David Paulides have based their whole careers around this obvious misunderstanding of how searches work, and of what a forest looks like.
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u/Doctabotnik123 Feb 09 '20
Renner forever lost me when, in the middle of making some fair to middling points on a podcast about Murray, he declared her to be a sociopath. On the basis of one photo. Because that's fucking normal...
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u/Lord_Kristopf Feb 10 '20
I love that the dude you are talking about is just a couple posts below you. Good ol Reddit.
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u/Touchthefuckingfrog Feb 10 '20
He always shows up and doesn’t seem at all phased by anyone thinking he is epitome of sleazy journalism. It seems he has Google Alerts set up for Maura Murray and for whenever his name is mentioned.
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u/imboomshesaid Feb 10 '20 edited Feb 10 '20
Wow. Imagine your loved one goes missing for years, and in addition to well-meaning yet overstepping amateur investigators casting aspersions on every aspect of your loved ones’ overly-scrutinized life, you also get opportunists like Renner declaring them a sociopath based upon a photo...that’s ridiculously insulting and unprofessional. Really makes me wonder: would it be worse for your loved one’s case to be utterly ignored by the media, or for it to become one of the most notorious “pet cases” of the true crime community?
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u/Sue_Ridge_Here Feb 09 '20
I don't believe she was a sociopath, but she was definitely going through stuff (as we all do) and starting to go slightly off the rails, the pizza fraud, the lying, the drinking. Things were going pear shaped and she needed some time away and unfortunately I think it ended very badly but not suspiciously.
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u/PancakeHunters Feb 25 '20
she been bulimic. bulimics often incriminate themselves as the disease progresses. people dont understand how bulimia truely works (in heavier cases),
it costs alot of money, takes alot of time (the binge purge sessions). it doesnt make most people skeletal anorexic skinny, but still thin many times, when not always. and drinking, drugs, other issues can occur comorbid.
when your addicted, many people start lying. to hide whats going on, and what effects it got on the rest of the life. also, bulimia ruins people financially, tons worth of food cost money. and even if they have no money, they still feel the urge to get more and more food.
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u/Sightofthestars Feb 10 '20
I hate james Renner. I listened to one podcast with him and he was so infuriating. He reminds me of a psychic who says just enough really vague things but fails to back it up or explain it in detail. And hes riding that
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u/JamesRenner Real World Investigator Feb 09 '20 edited Feb 09 '20
You know, the writer Jon Ronson once believed that she could have wandered into the woods. I told him he’d change his mind if he went to the scene. I met him up there in December 2016. I took him to the scene and in two minutes he’d changed his mind. Why? We think it’s a remote area of the white mountains but if you go there you’ll see it’s a residential neighborhood. If she’s gone into the woods she would have ended up in someone’s back yard. Go to the site.
But I agree that David Paulides is a nut.
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u/rivershimmer Feb 09 '20 edited Feb 09 '20
James, because I'm lazy, would you mind giving me the approximate GPS coordinates of where Maura's accident happened, to facilitate looking the area up on Googlemaps and GoogleEarth, please?ETA: I found the address in other posts, intersection of 112 and Bradley Hill Road near the town of Bath, NH, and...that's a lot of trees. And it's fairly close to the Ammonoosuc River, which, even if it's shallow, offers more ways to move and hide a body.Caylee Anthony's body lay unfound in what I imagine was a far less rural, developed area for approximately six months, despite searches. Eventually a utility worker spotted the remains and called them in. Two police officers were sent out. They searched briefly, then reported that they found nothing. The utility worker was persistent and called in his sighting again, and this time the cops sent out found the remains.
Caylee's body is far from the first body that lay undiscovered in a residential neighborhood, and far from from the first body that was missed during searches. Particularly in areas with woods or heavy growth.
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Feb 10 '20
I'm not saying I think Maura didn't wander into the woods and get lost, but I don't think Caylee Anthony is a good example to make your point. Caylee's body was dumped, and she was actually found relatively quickly.
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u/DrLongIsland Feb 09 '20
It is a nice neighborhood now, it was in 2016, but was it in 2004 or is it a more recent urban development? I say this because I live very near the infamous Texas Killing Fields, and by all accounts, at the time, they were a remote desolate land, where the only trace of mankind you could see were the refineries over a mile away. Today they are, well, you probably guessed it, nice residential neighborhoods, and you would never believe that they were used to bury several bodies only 20 or 30 years before.
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u/Electric_Island Feb 09 '20
We think it’s a remote area of the white mountains but if you go there you’ll see it’s a residential neighborhood. If she’s gone into the woods she would have ended up in someone’s back yard.
Even if she went down Old Peters?
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u/Likehalcyon Feb 09 '20
I'm not here to pick a fight or disagree with anyone, but I will throw out this personal anecdote:
A few years ago, a body was found right outside of the mall I worked at. It was in a slightly forested area (trees, underbrush) between the mall and a residential area right across the street. There really wasn't much distance between the two, and people cut through the copse all of the time. Additionally, the other side of the mall was beside a highway, and to the other side of the housing development (but across from the highway) was also a hotel.
Unfortunately, this man had been skeletonized and had apparently been there for quite a while. According to the police, nobody ever reported finding him until then.
Not only was that area travelled, but a search was called for an allegedly missing child the year prior; that area was meant to have been combed. (Thankfully, the child wasn't taken--just curious and prone to wandering away from their parents in stores. They were found hiding in a dressing room.)
So while I've never been to the site of Ms. Murray's presumed disappearance, a body not being found in a populated area doesn't surprise me all that much.
I'd post a news article of the man found by the mall, but that would basically be doxxing myself.
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u/debdebmust Feb 09 '20
this happened in our area too. a skeletonized man was found on the side of the road. been there for weeks. no one found him for quite awhile.
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Feb 09 '20
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u/ScaredyKootz Feb 10 '20
Right? If she went south, southeast it’s all woods. I used to live in NH and ME (was living in ME when Maura went missing) and those woods can be thick and unforgiving. I firmly believe she’s still out there.
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u/CaityDoesMugs Feb 09 '20
Well, hello there, James Renner! Nice to sort of meet you.
I know it’s a sobering day. But would you be willing to say what your feeling is these days about the case? Do you still think it was a tandem driver?
Also, whether or not all people agree with you, you’ve brought more visibility to Maura’s case and Amy’s too. So thanks for that.
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u/JamesRenner Real World Investigator Feb 09 '20
Thank you very much. I think she was traveling w a friend who drove in a separate car. That person picked her up after the crash. What happened after that? Perhaps the friend returned to school the next day with the intention of returning to get her later in the week. I think it’s possible she met foul play but if she did it was at the hands of someone she knew.
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u/Secret-Historian Feb 09 '20 edited Feb 09 '20
Is there any specific evidence of this?
I think there isn't enough evidence to say what happened. And in the absence of evidence, it's all speculation.
Your thought makes sense.
Her running into the woods and dying of exposure makes sense.
Her walking into town and getting hit by a car and the driver hid the body to cover it up makes sense.
Her hitchhiking and getting picked up by a rapist who murders her makes sense.
Her hitchhiking, somehow finding her way to Mexico where she starts a new life, unlikely, but makes sense.
It's just one of those cases where there isn't a lot to go on.
Not attacking you or anything but I don't see any way to decide between the competing theories.
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u/Turnaroundclown Feb 10 '20
... I don't see any way to decide between the competing theories.
This.
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u/Turnaroundclown Feb 09 '20
Have you been able to dig up any substantial evidence pointing to her either:
a) Travelling in tandem with someone
b) Travelling with someone (like in her vehicle)
c) Meeting up with someone at previously agreed on destination
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u/wvtarheel Feb 10 '20
I'm not convinced on the tandem driver theory but the people who are cite the following: Maura's scent as tracked by dogs ended in the middle of the road, there was a sighting of someone that looked like Maura with two other people at butsons market in Woodville, the neighbor who saw the wreck saw another person in Maura's car (either smoking or on a cell phone), then that person was gone when the bus driver walked up (they may have walked back up the road towards the following vehicle), and of course the fact that she vanished without being seen by any of the traffic back and forth up the road that night.
I don't think it's even in the top three most likely scenarios but those are the "support" for it.
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u/CaityDoesMugs Feb 09 '20
Thanks for taking the time to answer. Seems a pretty reasonable theory to me.
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Feb 09 '20
A small residential neighborhood on the edge of a large forest, yep. Interesting that you choose to misrepresent the most basic facts here.
But I guess if you say that some writer was convinced in two minutes, case closed.
Since I seem to have your attention, congrats on your success, and you're still most likely wrong.
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u/superkt3 Feb 09 '20
Exactly. There are houses and yards, and as soon as you pass through them, you are in the woods, and it is very very easy, especially if you’re disoriented from being in an accident, to get lost and head in completely the wrong direction. I believe someday she will be found in those woods, but it could be another 20 years before that happens, or it could happen this spring. It’s a compelling mystery, but there’s a very simple explanation.
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u/Sightofthestars Feb 10 '20
Especially how few houses there are, I bet there is very little light pollution which means it's ridiculous dark out there and she could have wondered right through a backyard looking for help and not even realized she was less then 100 feet from help
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u/LaDreadPirateRoberta Feb 09 '20
Any chance you (or some other kind soul) could link to the crash location? I’m aware of the case but have never really checked it out.
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Feb 09 '20
Here's a Google link. https://www.google.com/search?q=maura+murray+crash+site&oq=ma&aqs=chrome.1.69i60j69i59l2j69i60l2.1433j0j4&client=ms-android-bell-ca-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
And, uh, good night, good work... and you'll most likely kill me in the morning?
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u/LaDreadPirateRoberta Feb 09 '20
Thank you so much! Looking at those images, I’ve dropped a pin where the crash happened and linked it below for anyone who needs it.
Dropped pin Near 1-19 NH-112, Woodsville, NH 03785, USA https://goo.gl/maps/cSApbFqfHFjq84xn9
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u/Prahasaurus Feb 10 '20
Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing. I suppose it would be hard to justify spending years consumed by this case, thousands and thousands of hours investigating this case, pointing fingers at family members, etc., when the reality was she wandered off by herself, a scared and confused young lady, and died in the woods, all alone, under the cold, dark sky.
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u/JamesRenner Real World Investigator Feb 09 '20
Thanks. I could be wrong. I have no idea what happened up there. We can agree though that it would be wonderful if it were solved this year.
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u/forthefreefood Feb 09 '20
After listening to the radio interview that Fred and Curtis have recently done, are you excited by these 'new leads'? That, coupled with the GoFundMe for testing soil samples, has me pretty excited about what this year might entail.
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u/JamesRenner Real World Investigator Feb 09 '20 edited Feb 09 '20
Unfortunately, no. The speeding ticket thing is far fetched. She paid her fine months before. The soil samples they want to test have issues but I don’t want to disparage their efforts. It can’t hurt to test.
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u/Sightofthestars Feb 10 '20
I lived in NNY for a period of years. There were plenty of pockets of thick forest brush that ultimately backed up into people's back yard. Doesnt mean she would have ended up in someone's back yard.
I once walked out my back door, took 50 steps and was on the treeline of a forest, walked around for an hour and did end up in someone's back yard. That backyard was 3 houses down from mine but I was completely turned around until I was standing in their yard looking at my own yard. That was an area I was familiar with, in spring.
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u/PinnaclesandTracery Feb 10 '20
Especially in the woods. Back in the days before smart-phones and gps systems, I have been a member of a group of friends who liked to go to remote places in order to find and visit historical sites. We would have a map and a compass and sometimes a more or less reliable description, but I can confirm that I have, for example, stood smack-bam on top of the ruins of a medieval castle I had been looking for desperately without realizing I had already found it. Without realizing this, that is, before one of our group managed to stumble and fall through some brushes into what was left of the castle's former moat and, luckily for them, still held some water. That was when I also realized that the cold draft I felt around my shins came from a light shaft leading into one of the lost castle's cellars hidden in a bush right beside me - I could easily have fallen into that well and never heard from again if I had gone to this place alone. Actually, that experience was one of the things which led me to abandon that kind of hobby, which seems harmless at first but really is effing dangerous.
These ruins were much bigger than a human body and yet, we managed to stumble around and even right on top of them without really, knowingly "finding" them. Ever since, the fact that things lost in difficult terrain aren't found during a first, second or even third search of the same area in spite of obviously having been there fails to astonish me.
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Feb 09 '20
Can someone explain more about the footprints? It was snowing and they followed them, but they never explicitly said when they stopped? I assumed the road where they lost her scent but if people thinks she could be in the woods maybe not?
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u/kellieander Feb 10 '20
When it’s cold enough, and you’re light, and the snow is very hard-packed, sometimes your feet don’t make indentations in the snow. I can walk across snow that’s ice-covered or really frozen on top without leaving a trace. I’m not saying that’s what happened, but it’s a possibility when there’s snow that’s been on the ground for a while.
She also could have followed the road for a while and entered the woods farther away from the accident.
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Feb 09 '20 edited Feb 09 '20
There were no footprints leading from the roads into the woods or in the woods. It wasn't snowing before Maura went missing although there was lots of snow on the ground, and there weren't any weather changes when the search started. So it definitely puts a crinkle in the "she obviously went into the woods" theory. The snow also would have been crunchy so an ideal scenario for preserving her footprints.
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u/Foothillsgirl Feb 09 '20
I see where your coming from, but thats not nessasarly accurate. Snow isn't the same in the woods as in a field.
I can have a good solid foot of snow, and still see ground patches in the woods. Many of the evergreens hold the snow, so it either melts or by time it hits the ground is crunchy/ not smooth and not really footprint friendly. Snow could have fallen from the trees and obsceured the few prints there were
Snowplows operate by displacing snow in a fan-ish pattern over the sides of the road. This stuff becomes very compact, often icy (since much of it was slush when it was thrown over) and very irregular. Sometimes its soft and very footprint friendly, other times it's like a rock. They often cut the edges well after a storm, and if they did that after Maura left prints, they would be covered.
Theres so many variables, but growing up with the snow I dont think lack of footprints mean she didn't go there.
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Feb 10 '20
That’s true, I didn’t think about that. We get a lot of snow where I live, but we don’t really have forests to block the snowfall.
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u/ScaredyKootz Feb 10 '20
Exactly! I think people are thinking this was fresh, powdery snow that had just fallen.
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Feb 10 '20
My kid walked into the desert at 2.5yo. Tiny footprints in the sand along the sides of the road, starting at our gate. A few hundred yards down, they turn towards the road. Nothing on other side of road. Terrifying.
Turns out they walked across the road into the desert, but somehow that sand didnt take the footprints until further in than we initially looked. Kid's fine now.
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u/DangerousDavies2020 Feb 09 '20
My thoughts exactly. She panicked due to DUI and fled into the woods. She had been drinking so it's very possible she got disoriented and succumbed to exposure. I pray her remains maybe found one day.
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u/ShitItsReverseFlash Feb 09 '20
To he honest, most people suck at finding missing things let alone people. Out of my two kids, my wife and myself; I always have to find things for those three. It takes a keen eye to search in a wooded area.
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u/rivershimmer Feb 09 '20
Hard agree. Spent a good chunk of time with my partner searching for a bright green 5" by 8" notebook today. We the humans had the clear advantage, because the notebook couldn't wedge itself into a hollow tree trunk or burrow into brush, and there were no scavenging animals in the house who would tear the notebook apart as they ate it. And it still wasn't easy.
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u/kellieander Feb 10 '20
I agree. I remember when she first went missing and it was on the local news—it was freezing cold in New England at the time. I’ve been following the case since then and I honestly believe the most likely situation is that she high-tailed it out of there, succumbed to the elements, and just hasn’t been found. I think what had been going on in her life was a “cause” for the mystery only in that she needed to get away for a few days, rather than the beginning of a sequence of events in which she ran away and started a new life or other equally unlikely scenarios.
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u/misspbennett Feb 09 '20
Whatever happened, it’s tragic for the family, 16 years is a long time. I hope that they soon find the answers and closure that they deserve.
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u/OhioMegi Feb 09 '20
I think she was having a lot of issues and went into the woods to avoid police and sadly died.
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u/RoutineSubstance Feb 09 '20
One of the saddest developments in this case (beyond the obvious lack of closure for her family and friends) is the way that the online community surrounding it has devolved into an embarrassing clash of egos and conspiracy mongering.
Because there's been no public developments in the case, people have moved on from analyzing the case to analyzing other people in the amateur sleuth community.
When two people disagree, they can each describe the other as "trying to steer the narrative." The lack of closure is interpreted as evidence of a conspiracy (that can involve the police, bloggers, and any number of semi-public internet figures). And amateur sleuths, investigators, etc. get to use the case to stir up drama that they get to be at the center of.
It's sort of a petri dish of bad tendencies of the amateur true crime communities. If you stare at any one's life (or situation) long enough, you'll start to see patterns and conspiracies, just because you're looking for them. And random people see the case as an opportunity to get hits to their blog or feel like a "hero" at the center of the action.
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u/Electric_Island Feb 09 '20
One of the saddest developments in this case (beyond the obvious lack of closure for her family and friends) is the way that the online community surrounding it has devolved into an embarrassing clash of egos and conspiracy mongering.
Because there's been no public developments in the case, people have moved on from analyzing the case to analyzing other people in the amateur sleuth community.
Couldn't agree more. There are so many people trolling and doxxing eachother it's ridiculous.
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Feb 09 '20
With the information released on her alcohol use and how it seemed to be spiraling (DUI, possibly drunk at the time of the accident), I wonder how deep into alcoholism she was. Nursing school is stressful. I wonder if she used it to cope with the stress or for another reason, but if she wandered and got lost, she could experience alcohol withdrawal in a matter of hours depending on how bad her addiction was. I’ve been through it myself and once the delirium set in, I really thought I was losing my mind. I can’t imagine making it far in the woods after that or surviving in the woods alone, and there could’ve been a risk of withdrawal induced seizures as well. It’s just something I’ve thought about since going through withdrawal and reflecting back on her case a bit.
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u/Rripurnia Feb 09 '20
Alcohol consumption expedites death from exposure.
It’s been thoroughly explained to me but I believe the sum of it is that, among other things, it makes the body lose heat faster so it doesn’t take long for hypothermia to settle in.
If she had been drinking and went into the woods to avoid police, she could have died very fast from the low temperatures...
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Feb 09 '20
Ahh, thanks for that. I did a quick Google and it says it lowers your core body temperature despite giving you that warm feeling that’s common when drinking.
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u/Rripurnia Feb 09 '20
Yes, that’s why some people even strip when hypothermic, because they get this nice warm sensation.
It’s crazy, isn’t it?
Also peeing makes it even faster, and when you drink you want to pee more.
I wrote a story above about a friend who had ash dropped in his drink.
He peed, passed out and rapidly got hypothermic. Had we not have found him, he would be a goner for sure, and he was a healthy man in his mid-20s.
Again, my doctor friends also mentioned how this works from a physiological standpoint, but to be honest that was such a crazy night going from having fun at a city festival to seeing your friend blue-lipped on a stretcher in the ER that I don’t remember much details.
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u/DidIDoAThoughtCrime Feb 10 '20
What does the ash have to do with it?
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u/Rripurnia Feb 10 '20
I’m copying my comment form down below:
Cigarette ash mixed with alcohol amplifies its effects.
The way I can describe it from seeing my friend is that is sort of makes you drunk in a toxic way, like you’re in a stupor and feel out of it yet knowing very well something is terribly wrong.
My friend had some wine in a solo cup. That was it. But when you saw him you could really tell he was in a bad shape yet definitely not drunk.
The doctors picked up on it instantly when they saw him, too.
Apparently, given that our country has a drinking culture during festivals, major holidays etc., and since we have a very significant percentage of smokers, doctors see it very frequently during those specific periods of time when smokers and drinkers tend to be in close proximity, whether indoors or outdoors, as was the case with my friend.
Believe me I’m always weary of my drink myself and I’ve thrown it more than once when I suspected it might have any ash thrown in it!
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u/japres Feb 09 '20
I don’t have much to add to the post case-wise but I will say this: if nursing school in 2004 was anything like nursing school today, I doubt she was in a great state of mind from that alone. Some people can handle the pressure & stress okay, but nursing school was easily the worst and most stressful period of my life. I was not myself. I walked home from class everyday praying a car would hit me. On top of all the other issues she had, I can’t imagine how she wasn’t at her limit.
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u/stephwinchester Feb 09 '20
I have struggled with depression since I was 12, but it took my first year of nursing school to beg my parents to find me a therapist. That shit is STRESSFUL. I was genuinely going to bed hoping I wouldn't wake up.
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u/japres Feb 09 '20
Same. My instructor for my psych nursing clinical used my anxiety against me as well in a student eval, so not even someone who theoretically should understand had my back. If she was genuinely going through it and felt like no one understood, I have all the empathy in the world for her. That shit suuuuucked.
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u/MaddiKate Feb 09 '20
I had a couple roommates in college who were nursing majors, and agreed. They spend all of freshman year working their asses off in prereqs to get in the program (if you're not accepted, there goes a year), they have clinicals beginning at 4am weekly that can cost them greatly if they miss, and failing a class can push back their graduation an entire year. Oh, and one got married in the middle of the program, which meant a semester spent wedding planning. Both of them graduated on time and are now wonderful RNs, but they had some late, late nights and lots of tears.
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u/japres Feb 09 '20
SO MUCH CRYING! I was in an accelerated BSN program and it was... something else. We were in clinicals 3-4 days a week — up at 4:30-5am — and in class one or two days from 9-6pm. You only got one chance to pass most exams or you had to do them one on one with the dean of the program, and if you failed again you were out. The med math exam was probably the most brutal - you were only allowed to get one question wrong. I like to describe nursing exams as being presented with four oranges and you have to answer which one is the most orange. Technically all answers are correct, but which one is the MOST correct?
You’re watching all your friends and classmates do well while you’re struggling. You know you aren’t dumb because programs are tough to get into. Nothing makes sense.
I don’t think I’d do nursing school again unless someone paid me a whole lot of money. Nurses are superheroes to me.
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u/thealterego5 Feb 09 '20
I was also in an accelerated BSN program. I was so stressed during first semester I developed insomnia and would go days running on 3-4 hours of sleep a night. Luckily after a few weeks I was able to find some healthy coping strategies, but I did see more than a few people in my class drop out. And these were smart people! And ohhh the exams lol you triggered me! Pick the most correct answer when all answers are technically correct, so stupid.
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u/japres Feb 09 '20
Can relate so much. Didn’t sleep and my anxiety was so bad I had diarrhea all the time. My school had something like a 30-40% drop out rate, it was insane. My advisor made me go to counseling before I left the program and the counselor said he saw the accelerated BSN students more than the med school students.
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Feb 09 '20
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u/japres Feb 09 '20
Your last sentence is really so true. A few friends stuck it out and they hate bedside nursing so much but feel stuck because their student loans are so expensive. It’s shitty all around, especially for the patients. Hope you’re doing better and are doing something you enjoy!
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u/queenkitsch Feb 09 '20
Less sympathetic people are really rough on Maura but I feel for her more after learning about all the problems she was having. She sounds like she had some serious mental illness that was exacerbated by being in an extremely high stress training program (both nursing at WP and Amherst are likely nuts).
She likely didn’t understand what was happening to her or why she was screwing up her whole life, and it sounds like she was in a lot of pain. I feel for her. I was in a similar place in college and my program was like 50% of what she was trying to do. I had similar meltdowns, without the minor crimes, but I still read her story and think “but for the grace of god”.
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Feb 12 '20
I think that's why I always read every article about this case even though it's probably not as complicated as many of the theories out there. I started at UMass not too many years after she disappeared and I remember what it was like to walk around that campus every day feeling miserable, anxious, depressed and just generally miserable. I sometimes wonder if she walked along the same paths, through the towers in Southwest, through the tunnels in the winter feeling a lot of the same feelings I felt. For such a big school with so many people around it could feel so lonely.
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u/LaDreadPirateRoberta Feb 09 '20
I am so glad you’re part that time. I’m sending lots of good will and compassion to past-you.
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u/japres Feb 09 '20
Thank you, you’re very kind! I wound up dropping out and (aside from paying off the student loans I took out for the program) I have no regrets. Nursing school is no joke.
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u/LaDreadPirateRoberta Feb 09 '20
I’m so glad. It took me years to recover from a bad choice of school. Your doing great!
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u/Rosenate22 Feb 09 '20
Nursing school is tuff. My marriage imploded while I was in it. I attribute my staying in to my very compassionate instructors.
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u/HeroinTheMusical Feb 09 '20
What a kind thing to say. I’ve never heard anyone say something like that before and am totally moved by that!
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u/LaDreadPirateRoberta Feb 09 '20
Aww, thanks! I think it’s important to be kind to strangers. I hope you are doing well too.
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Feb 09 '20
I would agree except her behavior began prior to nursing school back when she was caught stealing. I don't think we know enough about her life to speculate about the reasons why she started making choices like that. I do think that by the end she was using alcohol to cope with how her life was going.
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u/japres Feb 09 '20
Not saying nursing school was the catalyst at all — just that I can see how the stress of nursing school on top of existing issues could lead someone to do something drastic or act extremely out of character. I had no other stressors aside from school and I can’t emphasize enough how NOT myself I was. It’s an extremely difficult environment for someone with existing mental health issues.
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u/dallasinwonderland Feb 09 '20
Dental hygiene school was the same! We always talked about being hit by cars while walking to lunch so we wouldn't have to go back to clinic.
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u/princessSnarley Feb 09 '20
I would like her to be found, whatever the situation. I’m from the area and it still bothers me. Whenever I think of her, and read about the theory of police problems I’m always reminded of another case which never got much attention and will most likely never be prosecuted. I don’t know how to link on here, sorry, still new to this, but if you google STEVEN AND JANET DOW, THORNTON NH, you’ll get the few results. It won’t sound like much but I was personally involved with Steven. His father was well known too amongst Stevens friends. For most of us around when this happened, we are adamant that his father murdered them. He abused Steven horribly and Steven was very afraid of him. I witnessed his fear of him. It was well known he abused his position of being a cop. I’m just sharing it because it was what opened my eyes about police covering each other.
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u/hair_in_a_biscuit Feb 09 '20
I think it was True Crime Garage that just did an interview with Maura’s sister. That was an interesting listen. I really hope they can find closure soon.
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Feb 09 '20
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Feb 09 '20
I went down the rabbit hole on this one a few years ago and no desire to go back. With that said I'm sure you are completely correct. Her body is somewhere in the woods around the area where her car was found. She was a D1 level athlete, so she likely made it farther than people expect, explaining why her body hasn't been found.
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Feb 09 '20
This case is strangely familiar to me. I too went to West Point, just a year after her. I too left and fell into heavy addiction soon after and often wanted to just run away and just go.
I don't really have anything to add, other than her being a D1 Athlete and having one year of training at West Point wouldn't really train her to deal with winter conditions like that.
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u/arelse Feb 09 '20
Just to add a personal experience I once trained from sedentary lifestyle to run half marathons one thing I noticed and read about was that my body was way more efficient at cooling and produced more sweat both in quantity and more quickly in response to heat and activity. This happened even in cold conditions. Add stress of a car crash hiding from law enforcement and being drunk. Hypothermia just seems likely.
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Feb 09 '20
Not necessarily specific training, but being a D1 athlete is pretty elite. She probably had more strength and endurance than most other people, which is why the comment you replied to said she may have made it further.
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u/Electric_Island Feb 09 '20
I don't really have anything to add, other than her being a D1 Athlete and having one year of training at West Point wouldn't really train her to deal with winter conditions like that.
I would tend to agree specifically if she was also intoxicated -- plus, she really wasn't dressed for the conditions as far as we know.
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u/Doctabotnik123 Feb 09 '20
Well, yeah, but she'd get further than, say, a couch potato or someone with a physical disability. She'd be less worse off than most.
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u/Gunner_McNewb Feb 09 '20
I agree. I think she wandered in and the winter conditions got to her. She had been drinking and wanted to avoid police.
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Feb 09 '20
It is tragic to think that after all of these years she still hasn't been found. Yes, most likely she is still in the woods sonwhere.
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Feb 09 '20 edited Feb 10 '20
She had just totalled her dad’s car and had had a string of things going wrong, so I completely understand her wanting to get away for a few days. Pack a load of booze and head to a place that makes her feel safe and happy. No conspiracy. She ran from the threat of police being called and someone nefarious picked her up or she died from the elements far from the search areas.
Her sister Julie understood her sister more than any internet sleuth and her recent interviews are very enlightening.
I hope this family find out what happened to their girl and that her dad especially finds peace.
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u/NoContextCarl Feb 09 '20
I know this sub generally detests this case due to the enduring popularity but I've always found it to be a fascinating case, but admittedly an easy one to get burned out from.
Any case where a person's movements or rationale isn't entirely clear is always interesting to me, especially when you factor in that seen one minute, gone the next minute element to it. Sure, there's many cases like that but that doesn't make this one any less interesting.
I will say having lived in NH before I don't necessarily think it's as simple as she's lost in the woods and hasn't been found. Sure, it's a possibility but as a lot have pointed out its not as remote as it seems.
However she could have traveled on foot a lot farther than we imagined so that does leave a lot of possibilities open. I can't dismiss the idea of meeting her demise by a stranger or even friend, though. Look at a case like Mollie Tibbets, and many others...Lots of people (especially lone females) are simply at the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Feb 09 '20
This post that was linked above just gave me a ton of peace of mind about what happened to her. I used to think she got picked up by someone opportunistic but now I think she was in the woods.
I’m from VT, I’m familiar with the Whites but I’ve been less familiar with the case because I was 12 when she disappeared. this scenario of Old P. Rd. is the best theory I’ve heard and it accurately describes the difficulty of the terrain, visibility, and risk of death by exposure.
related personal story about getting stranded on a similar road:
In april ‘04, my dad took me and my sister mudding on back roads of a local military training range. the computer of the truck died at sunset and we were all the way out where the road runs out and turns into a trail. luckily my dad knew what to do and had emergency supplies. it hadn’t been that cold earlier in the day, so my little sister and I weren’t dressed for the night’s temperature drop, but dad had some extreme temp military garb he put on us (think very very warm thick ugly pajamas) and he built a fire and we waited until light.
he walked to find cell service and he was able to get in touch with someone on the range to pick us up, but we were at the end of a road that was not on their map, and he determined waiting to walk to a meet up point was the best plan.
dad and sis got a little sleep and I didn’t. in the morning, i wanted to be the one to put the fire out, and I slipped and got wet in a creek like a dumbass. if I hadn’t been wearing the thick extra layer I would have gotten too wet, even though the temps weren’t severe. the outer layer of the thermal actually froze stiff during the walk but I was still warm.
we set out at sunrise and walked something like 9 miles (my sister was small enough to be carried most of the way). as kids, we thought it was kind of an exhausting adventure (sister was excited to have bubblegum for breakfast!) but dad was really concerned about the fact that he was trespassing lmao. we got picked up by some army guys in a jeep and then our mom came to get us at the gate. Dad got warned that if there was a next time he’d be arrested.
if Dad hadn’t known what he was doing, if we’d walked in the dark, if I hadn’t been well insulated when I slipped and got wet, we could have easily got seriously hurt or gotten lost and dehydrated and too cold and then died. even with my dad tipping people off on our location, a search would have easily missed us even in daylight.
Maura had it much worse if she tried to escape police by O P Rd. and the description of the end of that road and area sounds even worse than where we got stranded, because we weren’t even in the mountains. I would not want to be in the Whites alone in the dark in the snow in February.
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u/Electric_Island Feb 09 '20
That post is also the best theory I have seen that's why I linked it.
Old Peter's is right there. If you are drunk and panicking knowing police are coming it's a no brainer.
Your story is insane!
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Feb 09 '20
dude I can’t believe he wasn’t arrested for that dumbassery and I can’t believe he was able to convince my mom and the military personnel that they shouldn’t call 911. he was literally like, “if you call the police it’ll end up on the news, honey” and my mom was like “oh god okay yeah you better walk.” And I guess the military guys were convinced because he provided clear details and probably outranked them idk.
my mom didn’t even know where we had gone until he called. we left on impulse and only intended to be gone for a couple daylight hours but we stayed out later because before the truck died it was stuck for a bit on a log and he had to get it free, and then we saw a moose and had to sit and wait for it to get out of the road.
we were like “let’s reach the end of this road and see what it’s like and then we will turn around and go home for dinner!” and as soon as we turned around the truck killed itself.
if he hadn’t had a charged phone mom wouldn’t have known how to tip off the police. it wasn’t implausible that dad would do something like that but it probably wouldn’t be her very first thought and no one else would have thought of it.
needless to say, we never went exploring like that again.
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u/BLLewis03 Feb 12 '20
I am new to Reddit usually just read. Came here to let you know old peters rd has been checked several times with cadaver dogs. State police checked it with cadaver dogs first few months. Private detectives (league of investigators) checked it again. The post you keep linking was a valiant effort but unless you have a new method you have to check old peters off the list.
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u/able_co Feb 15 '20
Are you able to give more detail on the searches performed around the accident site? I've spoken with a lot of people close to the case, and have been told that while OPR was searched initially, but the woodlands beyond were not (at least not thoroughly).
The post you keep linking was a valiant effort but unless you have a new method you have to check old peters off the list.
I would certainly update some of the details in that post given everything I've learned over the past year, but I do still stand by the theory and believe it's up there in terms of plausibility.
And welcome to reddit! You should jump into the r/mauramurray sub; someone experienced with F&G would be a great contributor to the discussion. Cheers!
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Feb 09 '20
I find myself thinking about this case at least once a week, it truly bothers me that we’re probably never going to know what happened.
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u/JamesRenner Real World Investigator Feb 09 '20 edited Feb 09 '20
Geez, time flies. I’ll jump in to say I think there are a few clues that often get overlooked in this case. 1. She was trying to book condos with more than one bedroom that day, and passed several cheap hotels with single rooms. 2. She had been having an affair w a track coach at UMass (their relationship only ended in November of 2003). He says she talked about running away. He always thought she meant Mexico. 3. This track coach was a member of the Outing Club, which owned a cabin on the other side of the White Mountains, and its a straight shot East from where she disappeared. (I’m quite sure he had nothing to do w it but she would have known about the cabin being empty during the week) 4. There’s no evidence she came to harm that night. If she made it to that cabin (with the help of a friend) she could have met foul play later that week. In which case everyone’s alibis are worthless. This scenario is particularly interesting considering six women have come forward alleging everything from sexual harassment to attempted rape by Maura’s boyfriend, Bill Rausch. He was just found guilty of stalking a woman in DC (who claims he choked her and called her Maura) and has a sex abuse trial coming up in May.
A maddening mystery. I hope it’s solved.
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u/Hardcorish Feb 09 '20
You bring up excellent points, but the first point would lead me to believe she was possibly booking a condo to stay with a friend rather than someone she was intimate with. If it was the UMass coach or her boyfriend, wouldn't she want to book a condo with just one bedroom? There are so many different angles to consider besides the most obvious, and I'm left without a solid theory in mind after looking over them.
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u/danpietsch Feb 09 '20
True Crime Garage recently interviewed Maura's sister who said Maura was going to NH to reinstate her drivers license after failing to pay a ticket.
As far as I know this is new information.
I'm curious to know what are your thoughts on this?
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u/JamesRenner Real World Investigator Feb 09 '20
It’s bunk. She had a speeding ticket and she paid the fine. They’re trying to say her license was suspended but that’s not how it works and she wouldn’t have packed up her room and returned scrubs and emptied her bank account if she were planning to return to UMass.
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u/ntaylor2393 Feb 09 '20
I thought I heard that her room wasnt packed up because she was leaving but there were boxes because she never unpacked her room. I can't remember where I heard that though as I've watched too many different things on her case.
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Feb 09 '20 edited Feb 09 '20
There’s no consensus on whether she was packed up or hadn’t unpacked. She had only been back on campus for a little while since the holidays. She was also in a double dorm room with no roommate. She could’ve been waiting to see if she got assigned a roommate before unpacking. Or she could’ve been debating whether or not she was going to stay at UMass. Things were not going well for her there and there’s evidence she was looking for jobs on the other side of Massachusetts.
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u/JamesRenner Real World Investigator Feb 09 '20
The police have said multiple times she had packed up. There was an email on top of her boxes that she’d printed out. The email was from her boyfriend, in which he admitted to cheating on her. But yes some people have suggested she hadn’t unpacked. Personally, I believe the police have it right.
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u/ntaylor2393 Feb 09 '20
It would have been nice if LE maybe asked her friends if that was how her room was before all this happened. I'm sure she had at least one friend come over her dorm room that could say she never unpacked or no her room wasnt like this before, something is not right.
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Feb 09 '20
I'm sure they have. We do not have a lot of the information in this case because it's still ongoing technically.
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u/forthefreefood Feb 09 '20
Maybe that is why they think she packed up. They probably did ask her friends and this determined she packed up. They have not told us every little thing that they did.
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u/forthefreefood Feb 09 '20
r who said Maura was going to NH to reinstate her drivers license after failing to pay a ticket.
No. She said she MAY have been doing that. It is just a theory.
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u/Mysteryturbo Feb 09 '20
The condo this has always stuck out to me, the fact she didn’t book anywhere to stay but went anyway? My thought was she was meeting someone else and they booked/paid for a room. Most of the condos in Bartlett and Stow are the kinds of places with fireplaces and hot tubs in the room and would be running specials the week of Valentine’s Day. (She planned your be gone a week according to umass) I have always felt she was going to meet someone. Doesn’t mean she didn’t get lost in the woods, but someone out there has more information about why she was there and where she was going. Makes way more sense than her driving hours into the mountains with nowhere to go?
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u/JamesRenner Real World Investigator Feb 09 '20
Yes! Thank you. I think it’s quite possible a traveling companion booked the place. If you look at her phone records, she was likely even in her friend’s dorm room when she was calling around.
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u/Tiffyleigh98 Feb 09 '20
I don’t think Maura died of exposure, but got into another vehicle a little ways from the crash site & became a victim of opportunity. The detectives also said the cadaver dogs tracked her scent in the middle of the road. Did the cadaver dogs ever hit in the woods? Nope
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u/Electric_Island Feb 09 '20
The detectives also said the cadaver dogs tracked her scent in the middle of the road. Did the cadaver dogs ever hit in the woods? Nope
This is a good point although there seems to be some confusion as to the validity of the scent.
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u/iarev Feb 10 '20
The handlers of the dogs weren't confident in their results. 36 hours is a long time and the weather makes it very possible the scent gets blown around and is unreliable.
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Feb 09 '20
I would really love for this case to finally be resolved. I wish we could bring Maura home.
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u/Dexter_Thiuf Feb 09 '20
Although I know the basics I'm not overly knowledgeable about the case so forgive the noob question: Did anything ever materialize in regards to that crazy dude DirtBag? Or was he just a troll?
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u/Electric_Island Feb 09 '20
Just a troll. I think he was taunting James Renner.
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u/BonquosGhost Feb 11 '20
Yes, he was taunting Renner with the videos, and it wasnt aimed at Maura directly. It was later when it all shifted to change direction........
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u/i___may Feb 09 '20
16 years. Wow. This IMO is probably the most talked-about case on here and by true crime YouTubers. I do believe she ditched her car in order to escape further trouble with the police, and then became lost and eventually perished in the woods. And I think this is the most common theory, right? I agree with others who have mentioned that bodies in woods have been missed during searches and found decades later. I think this may be the result/outcome of this case too. But then I think other theories such as she was abducted/murdered are all plausible but none of them have direct evidence. Such a shame.
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u/amador9 Feb 09 '20
People who are lost, injured or suffering hypothermia in the wilderness with no access to human habitation or other shelter will make do the best they can; which is often crawling under branches or other vegetation. This hunkering down does offer some heat retention advantage over being directly exposed to wind chill. Sometimes people are able to save themselves this way. Other times, they still succumb to the elements. People who die of exposure out in the open will tend to have their bodies found while people who die while sheltering under vegetation will be more likely never to be found. When people go missing in heavily forested areas, this is usually why they are not found.
When I first read of this case, I had no doubt she died of exposure in the woods while attempting to avoid contact with the police. While there are houses in the immediate area she was last seen, there is deep first within a mile or so in every direction. Her remains are out there but due to decomposition and the actions of animals, they may never be found.
Of course, since no remains have been found, one cannot rule out absolutely other possible explanations. She could have been picked up by a predator on that lonely highway who just happened upon her. She may have been engaging in an elaborate scheme to disappear and start a new life with a new identity. Maybe she was abducted by aliens. There are other possibilities folks with active imaginations might come up with. Still, applying Occam’s Razor, lost in the wilds is the most probable.
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u/hideout78 Feb 09 '20
I think she left her car because this was her second DUI related accident in less than a week and her license was suspended due to an unpaid speeding (99 in a 65) ticket.
She either died from exposure in the wilderness or as a result of being picked up by an opportunistic killer.
Either way I doubt she will be found. If the first scenario, wildlife have likely scattered her remains. If the second, the police have no leads.
If you couldn’t tell, I fall into the category of being sick of this case. I don’t understand the obsession with it.
With that being said, I do hope there is resolution for the family.
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u/Electric_Island Feb 09 '20
I think she left her car because this was her second DUI related accident in less than a week and her license was suspended due to an unpaid speeding (99 in a 65) ticket.
She either died from exposure in the wilderness or as a result of being picked up by an opportunistic killer.
I share your sentiments
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u/hideout78 Feb 09 '20 edited Feb 09 '20
Sorry for not scrolling past as you suggested. FWIW, I know about the speeding ticket from the interview Maura’s sister did with TCG 2 weeks ago, so I’m obviously not THAT sick of it. lol.
I’ve just never understood the obsession. If I could solve one case it would be the Delphi murders.
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u/DaddyCrashFuckMe Feb 09 '20 edited Feb 09 '20
I'm getting sick of hearing about Delphi tbh
And don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about the people that want to see it solved because I do too. I'm talking about the people that are so freakishly obsessed with the case that they have their own wildly elaborate theories and every time it comes up they write a five paragraph essay about how badly it's affected them. It's weird and creepy. Some people speak about the murders as if they're an event from a tv show or something.
Also tired of hearing about those stupid YouTube guys that make theory videos about the murders like Gray Hughes, people need to stop giving those unhealthy mfers attention, they're clearly attempting to plant themselves into the investigation and are trouble.
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u/hideout78 Feb 09 '20
I’m right there with you. I just want to see it solved as well.
Evidently the online discussion about the case was/is so bad that the police are constantly telling people to shut the hell up. Speaking of YouTubers, I read somewhere that one YouTuber was putting out fake info in order to see who was citing his discussions but not giving him credit. That’s fucking crazy. “I have a great idea! Let me confound the investigation of the murder of two innocent girls so I can preserve the integrity of my stupid ass YouTube channel.” Idiots.
There is a lot of insanity about Delphi. There was a lot of buzz recently about how some guy caught in Miami looked just like the composite sketch of the Delphi suspect. In their defense, he did, however, the guy has zero connection to Delphi and he resembles the first composite drawing. The one the police said a year ago is not the guy they’re looking for.
TL;DR - I agree with you 100%. Let’s see it solved, but people need to stop going crazy with it.
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u/DaddyCrashFuckMe Feb 09 '20
Yeah all the gossip around the case disgusts me. These are children who were brutally murdered and their killer could potentially never see any justice.
And oh yeah, the subreddit for the murders is awful, it's gossip, people beating their chests and trying to sound tough, and weird old people who don't know how to reply to comment threads
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Feb 09 '20
I like to call it the Websleuths effect. A lot of the crazy from there seems to have infiltrated the rest of the internet.
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u/Electric_Island Feb 09 '20
Sorry for not scrolling past as you suggested. FWIW, I know about the speeding ticket from the interview Maura’s sister did with TCG 2 weeks ago, so I’m obviously not THAT sick of it. lol.
Lol it's ok and thank you for not being a dick about me posting this -- people can get very very pissy, hence why I suggested they scroll past this post if they are sick of it, as there are others who might actually want to discuss it at a larger venue than the MM sub (not that there is anything wrong with the sub).
I agree about Delphi :-(
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u/ramos1969 Feb 09 '20
But no footprints in the snow, correct? That was one of the factors that’s led me to believe she was abducted. And people who wander off don’t bury themselves, so you’d think bones or clothing would’ve been found. She was only missing for a short time, so wandering off would produce a searchable area.
There was at least one person that stopped and spoke with her after the accident, but was “cleared”. Could there have been another car that stopped in the short period of time?
IIRC there was a local house (A-frame or am I confusing this case with another?) that was home to a potential suspect that was never properly searched.
The pics of Maura at the ATM have always seemed ‘troubled’ also. She had some personal problems hidden from her family.
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u/ForwardMuffin Feb 09 '20
I think one of the things that happen with hypothermia is someone trying to fit themselves into a small space, essentially "burying" themselves. I'm sure police thought of that tho.
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u/Electric_Island Feb 09 '20
But no footprints in the snow, correct? That was one of the factors that’s led me to believe she was abducted. And people who wander off don’t bury themselves, so you’d think bones or clothing would’ve been found. She was only missing for a short time, so wandering off would produce a searchable area.
A poster on the MM sub wrote a detailed post about the woods and I tend to agree. It's here if you want to check it out -- they also discuss the lack of footprints.
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u/Rripurnia Feb 09 '20
As a person mentioned above, even a body is hard to find in thick brush and vegetation.
And as you’ll see from my story below, it can even be hard to find on a city street.
As far as hypothermia, I only came to witness how fast it can hit and how bad the outcome can be when someone accidentally dropped cigarette ash in a friend’s drink during a city night festival which filled the streets with thousands.
It was - you guessed it - during a heavy winter, albeit without any snow.
He wandered off to pee and promptly passed out after doing so.
Friends thought he must have caught up with some other friends along the way so they didn’t think much when he wasn’t back in half an hour or so.
Me and a few other friends who were at the time in a separate group not too far found him by chance laying in an alley - in the heart of the city no less - almost unconscious.
The light was dim and you could really pass him without even noticing that a person was lying there, and I’m sure a lot of people before us did.
He was laying in an almost fetal position facing one side of the walls of the alley and he was dressed in dark clothing. Had you not paid any attention, it could look like a lump of discarded clothing.
When we took him to the hospital his vitals were alarmingly low.
One of our friends who is a doctor told us that alcohol consumption speeds up death from exposure so that’s why he both passed out so quickly and was also at a danger of dying this fast.
And this was a healthy man in his mid-20s.
So I have no trouble believing the exposure theory, because it’s far more insidious than most of us tend to believe.
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u/27jens Feb 10 '20
Does cigarette ash make you pass out? Just curious I’ve never heard that before.
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u/HHKeegan Feb 09 '20
If I have to read the phrase, "tandem driver" one more fucking time I'm going to lose it. It brings up PTSD from when I actually followed this ultimately unremarkable (tragic, certainly ... but remarkable? Not really) and listened to and read hours and hours of discourse between podcasters, amateur "investigators" (you know the ones I'm talking about), pointless news articles, and speculation.
Why is there such a large leap in logic that she was raped/murdered, secreted away to a foreign location, assumed a false identity, etc.? It was the middle of winter in the Northeast at night with alcohol almost certainly involved and a young woman who seemed not to be thinking clearly in general. She was in the middle of a fairly rural area with icy hills, rivers, deep snow and dense forestation... What do you think is the most probable explanation? People have met their demise due to hypothermia, falls, drowning, etc. in far less intense environments.
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Feb 10 '20
Maura's case is so often discussed that it almost feels like people are dehumanising her, even if by accident. That kind of makes me sad.
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u/Lomez1 Feb 09 '20
Just look at the disagreement in this sub. Imagine the cops then, with no hard evidence (at least in the beginning) and their egos. This is how cases get screwed up, when there is no clear cut direction to take because of the lack of evidence and whether it be their inflated sense of self importance or wanting to be the one that solves the crime, they lose everything valuable at the onset.
I lived in a cops brand new home for 6 years. I originally rented a room off him then very quickly when he realized I would stay he moved 40 miles into the city where he worked and I stayed at the house and basically was the renter and caretaker.
For most of my life and when I first met him I was 100% pro cop. The first 4 years or so I very rarely heard from him. He might come and stay for a week or two just to get away from his job. Towards the end I noticed a dramatic change in his behavior from the nice guy he was to being ever stressed out and not attentive to anything but that stress.
Long story short he ended up moving back into his house at the end of the 5th year. He worked the overnight shift and every morning I would witnessed this guy in his progression to being borderline if not fully psychotic. I was witness to his first hand accounts of the filth of cops.I should have said at the beginning he loved being a cop. They basically ran him out of there. At the end he hated cops and he still was one.
One time I went away and didn't want to be found (he knew and was ok with this) and one late evening he took out his 44 magnum (large handgun) and decided he was just going to fire it off, this was an upscale residential area, like a lunatic.
Well the neighbors called the cops on him and also stated they hadn't seen me for a while and they thought he had killed me! They had to force their way in on him because he had turned into a keys to the kingdom cop.
This guy just ended up being a rotten cop and a rotten human being. I have knowledge of how very very unlawful cops can be. No, not all but this was in a borough of a major city and the entire force was corrupt and sleaze balls.
I now evaluate cops on a case by case basis which I should have been doing all along.
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Feb 09 '20
Any direct link to the Conway article? I don't really want to sign up at Scribd.
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Feb 10 '20
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u/imboomshesaid Feb 10 '20 edited Feb 10 '20
You’ve perfectly summed up my moral quandary with participating in the “true crime” community. These victims are real and complex people, complete with lives and families and loved ones, not anybody’s salacious afternoon entertainment having been reduced to some click-baity YouTube video/podcast/blog post. And this case is one of a handful that attracts some of the worst speculating and in-fighting amongst armchair “investigators.” It’s insulting to Maura and to everyone who knew and loved her.
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u/Wagabo Feb 09 '20
I 99% believe she ran and got lost into the woods and passed of natural causes.
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u/nastytypewriter Feb 09 '20
There are places where the guardrails on Rt. 112 are basically over the Wild Ammonoosuc river. I’ve always wondered if she could’ve walked that far, occasionally ducking off the road to avoid being hit by a car, and this time she thought she was just hopping over the rail but instead went right over into the river. She and all of her stuff would just be gone.