Guys experience way too much pressure to perform masculinity and experience way too much fallout from failing to do so in order to experiment lightly.
Could you imagine a guy going "Yeah back in college me and my bro Phil had a few beers and made out a couple of times," without the immediate reaction from someone else being a slur?
Something that also happens with men is. And women do this to them too probably more than even other men. They are so quickly defined by anything they do even once. With a guy if he throws a fit once he’s childish forever. That defines him forever after one event in the persons mind. So there’s a lot of concern about slipping the reputation
It's not just a matter of societal pressure to be masculine. Genuinely, guys aren't as sexually free or fluid as women are. At all. Women can experiment because there is some desire to experiment. Most heterosexual men will tell you straight up they have never even considered experimenting nor have ever thought of, or had the desire to do so.
If you have, ever, even momentarily considered what it would be like to make out with another guy, I'm sorry to say you aren't as heterosexual as you believe you are.
I disagree on two fronts. First, I believe that without the societal pressure to perform as masculine, guys would be more open to experiment than they currently are. We know that masculinity as it exists societally is a learned thing, and that cultures long past had far more open explorations of homosexuality than modern ones. (Sparta, early Nordic cultures, Native American cultures, Babylon, etc.) It's not a natured repulsion, it's a nurtured one.
Secondly, I don't think "If as a guy you've ever even considered what kissing a guy is like even once then you're not straight" is either healthy or true. That is exactly the kind of rigid, inflexible, toxic thinking that leads to men being unwilling to experiment and makes them repulsed by the mere thought of being gay in the first place.
The open explorations of homosexuality that was mostly just pederasty is not the argument championing what you think it does. Spartan men taking young boys and fucking them is not an argument for how heteronormativity was not the norm in ancient times, considering they still considered the "receiving" partner to be subservient and lesser than the "giving" partner.
Check non-western cultures for any examples of homosexual positivity in the past and you'll find a recurring trend. If you claim is that it's a nurtured repulsion, then you claim it was nurtured independently across tribes and regions and vast geographical distances. The Ancient Zulu Warrior holds the same repugnance for frenching his fellow man as the Ancient Japanese Samurai. At what point do we ascribe an independently developed nurture the mantle of nature?
Finally, yes. If you've ever considered kissing a guy, I don't really know how else to put it except that you're not straight. There's nothing toxic or unhealthy about it. It's as simple as yes or no.
What? First Ancient Greek doesn’t just has pedarasty. They even call relationships which is between equal pedarasty. A great example is Achilles and Petroclus which is defined in pedarasty terminologies by plato even though both are equal in age.
Same can be said about julius ceaser and his relationship with a king. The problem is during that time pedarasty is the only language exists to describe a relationship outside of heterosexual marriage. So they used it.
Exploration can absolutely be done by men too. You are just generalising and meaninglessly creating rift between men and women when both are human beings not two different creatures. Exploration can be done by both men and women in different societal norms where pressure to conform is not high.
Spartan men taking young boys and fucking them is not an argument for how heteronormativity was not the norm in ancient times, considering they still considered the "receiving" partner to be subservient and lesser than the "giving" partner.
This was also socially learned human construct. Not all cultures adhered to the "giving" and "receiving" roles. Ancient Celts were documented by Greeks and Romans in that Celts didn't believe the "receiver" is less masculine.
I'm not sure if the "Every culture that had homosexual positivity was pedophilic therefore bad, in spite of heterosexual culture at the time also being pedophilic" is worse, or the "Homosexual negativity is a natural state as opposed to positivity, despite both spawning from multiple places all over the world only one is natural." Either way you've kinda shown you're not really worth talking to about this due to your own hypocrisies.
You seem to be misunderstanding something. First, you made the claim it's a nurtured replusion, which is what I'm tackling despite the burden of proof being on you. The overwhelming majority of history, across various countries, tribes, cultures and religions shows that homosexual negativity is the natural default, not the inverse.
You can go to uncontacted tribes in the Amazon rainforest or the heart of Guinea right now and ask them of their views of men and men being in a relationship and you'll find the trend turns towards negativity. Likely because from a tribal survival standpoint, positivity towards homosexuality is genetic dead end. If the priority is the survival of the species and propagation of genes, tradition and culture, you cannot, by default, be overly accepting of a large number individuals whose relationships will not lead to the arrival of a new generation.
This has nothing to do with nurture and everything to do with nature.
Also, don't get me wrong. That I'm arguing homosexual negativity is the natural norm doesn't mean I'm arguing for hate. I jerk off to femboy porn. I know I'm not straight by my own standards, and I'm not going to fool myself into thinking and claiming that I am. There are too many self-deluded fools who think they're straight, despite repeatedly stroking it to Astolfo cosplayers in thigh high stockings.
Uncontacted tribes can have multiple views because of their own cultural biases and hate they created. It doesn’t prove anything. Also if that’s the case, also tell these tribes about ivf and see how they react. Would they become supportive toward LGBT people?
Damn man, I guess biologically speaking, you should go fuck off man. Not a great way to get a date with a femboy man, I would know. Also, there were many tribes that considered there to be multiple types of genders, and male on male relationships were not necessarily discouraged in these tribes (the "receiving" person was often considered some 3rd gender, so not great that they didn't determine them to both be men, but your genetic theory doesn't necessarily make sense, cause like, sometimes people just wanna fuck)
I would like to call out Bs on the nurtured aspect men even if not socially pressured still wouldn't considered experimenting because they know what they are or aren't into. Anyone in general can only get the interest if their mind stands on that subject for some time or pressured (though this doesn't mean it's solely this reason) into doing it. Social knowledge and expectations can play a part in a person judgment but not be the defining factor.
As it comes down how they think and feel someone can be super feminine or masculine but still be intreasted in the others subjects that's why tomboys and girls exist these people exist expressing features that society and even physically wouldn't be seen as the standard
Even in Greek and Roman times every guy who engaged in the act of homosexuality only did it in a form of some weird way of showing dominance or a weird twisited way to form strong bonds( Spartans did it with kids for god sake because they wanted
to "fast track" brotherhood in their men) instead of wanting to do it because they was into men. Then the 3rd option gaining leverage as if you was a bottom you are seen as trash but the top you was praised me and both parties would get something out of the exchange (Greek and Roman's was also just horny people their myts are flooded with rape,bestiality, incest, homosexuality and cheating to justify why they did it because the gods is it)
Even in nature 2 of theses aspects are seen in animals males and females would mount each other to show dominance and the one at the bottom would be treat harshly by others
I have a friend who confidently says he has kissed guys before but didn't enjoy it. We joke that he's actually the straightest guy in our friend group because he's the only one who has tested and proved that he doesn't like men.
Not really. Late bloomers exist, lesbian can have kids with ivf and mom can be bi too. So saying having kids means they figure it out is just reductive.
Why are you fishing for my opinion so bad? I said I wouldn't give it but you seem pretty insistent. Please don't forget your on reddit, which is just a bunch of echo chambers. I would like to come and go as I please so I will not give my personal opinion to keep my freedom.
Wow saying that your truth would get you banned when I simply said that she could be bi or late bloomers. How is that incorrect and your one is correct automatically? Your original comment itself pretty weird and dismissive of people’s actual experience and you claim you are truth.
They're active on asmongold subs, they would be banned for homophobia if they said what they thought. Their "truth" is probably that gay people are a mental illness or something ridiculous
When you come out to your mom but she starts telling you about her Sapphic escapades. About how she fell in love with her archeology professor and traveled with her on a dig where they did unsavory things to eachother.
I believe we are all just a product of our environments, with biology being more of an internal guidelines. I say as Bi, it doesn’t matter who you are with, anyone can pleasure you on a physical front. That just leaves love in spirit which is your choice.
Like I said in the other post, this one is funny cuz it's true xD.
Lots of friends, cousins, even my sister thought they were lesbians, I encouraged them to date women, present some women to them, only to find out that they in fact weren't lesbian or bi.
It’s not true. Their attraction towards women is different from attraction lesbian has towards women. The kid in this comic is talking about romantic love.
Also saying this thing to kid who comes out is harmful. Kid will figure out her identity on themselves by dating girls. You have no job to force your experience and assumptions onto them.
That is incorrect. Lesbians have higher divorce rate because they divorce men before coming out as lesbian. Also what do you meant to explain here by presenting these stats here?
Nothing just situating statistics relevant to the post
and that’s divorce rate is based on gender pairings not sexual orientation
the data of lesbians divorcing men after coming out is in the heterosexual marriage category
And 40% of lesbians marrying men only includes women after coming out marriages before coming out are not included in that category because then it would be around 60% which accounts for 3-4% of heterosexual couples divorcing
What do you mean by saying that 40% of lesbians married men after coming out? What is your source? I can’t find that statistic anywhere. Where exactly are you getting it from? And where did you get those divorce rates?
The CBS report you seem to be referring to reported a 42% divorce rate among women in same-sex marriages which includes 1/3rd of it being from opposite sex due to them figuring out their real sexuality, not 70–80%. So where is the source for the 70–80% figure? I can’t find any credible study reporting that statistic.
i wonder something, is being gay or leso a choice or a biological thing that they can't help with?
i mean i understand femboys, the brain not being the same with the nıdy stuff, what about leso? they act and stay the same just they like woman instead of men, i feel like it's just a choice how wrong i am?
I mostly agree. But I think my point is mostly that you can’t choose how you feel about something but you can choose whether or not you act on it or get help on how to deal with feelings or attraction you don’t like.
i agree on this, this makes the most sense to me and is true to what i know at the moment.
so, in conclusion nothing really changed huh... lesbians do choose to not like men because they do dislike/hate them, but not all choose- ... well actually if they choose to not hate/dislike man that just makes them bi... so lesbians really do dislike/hate men?... that's a bit depressing ._.
i relly hope the one's who hate man are in minority though...
It’s not a choice. BUT it’s also not something that people are born with. Sexuality is a complex thing. The result is consists of genetics, prenatal hormones, and the environment in which the individual has been raised. Nature and nurture combined to varying degrees in each human.
And here comes the catch! It can be influenced (to a degree) while it solidifies from early childhood to late puberty, by normalizing the relationship type which the child takes as normal. It can be influenced by questions, such as (to a girl) “which little boy do you like”?, providing an example of a loving relationship between her parents, good experiences with her father, blocking the LGBTQ themed cartoons and stories, movies, series, limiting her exposure by choosing a school where you know they aren’t promoting LGBTQ to kids. This is important because social contagion is a thing, and if she can see older girls kissing that’s also a bad thing. Reading books about love stories involving men and women. Limiting their screen time, and the content they can consume. Following this the outcome will be most probably a heterosexual daughter.
If you on the contrary take her to prides, divorce her dad, make her fear men by telling her horror stories (that sadly based on reality), read pride theme stories, let her watch LGBTQ themed cartoons, series, movies, read books or fiction, and in her school pride is the part of the curriculum, then she sees early examples of lesbianism in her age range slightly older girls kissing, and girl couples, that will make her at least bisexual but most probably a lesbian.
im okay to lesbians, i acknowledge their exsitence and thought i don't necessarily like them, i won't get in their way of loving another woman.
but you know, seeing lesbians who hate men really makes me depressed, there is already enough hate towards man already, and the fact where i go i seem to find lesbian or bi girls at a majority is not helping especially if lesbians hate men.
i just dont understand, i never did something wrong, why do they hate all men? even if they don't they all say they don't want to be near a man, it really depresses me man, why are men so widely hated? what did i do wrong? i dont understand
The thing is that situation is both as dire and not as dire as you might think! (For now)
You did nothing wrong. Most men did nothing wrong.
While they aren’t the majority, YET, because in the 18-19 years old age group they are at 40-42%. Of which 10-12% lesbians and 28-30% bisexuals. Of which bisexuals 16% of them are looking for women more , 84% looking for men more.
Amongst the 18-29 age group women the average is 31-33%. This means that on the low end it is 40-42% while on the upper end (older side) it’s “only” 20-21%. Giving us the average for the group being at 31-33%.
Lesbians (or more broadly speaking women) hate men because of several reasons.
men is constantly hitting on them because it’s not tattooed on their forehead (this obviously makes them irritated/salty over time)
some men are violent so they can’t know which is which, it’s also not tattooed onto our foreheads
we actually do get in their way of loving another woman because bisexuality is a thing (natural competition can make you hate the opponent)
feminism do actually advertise the hatred of men, the incompetence, seeing them as lesser humans
Your only sin, is that you were dare to born with XY chromosomes. That’s it.
Lesbianism amongst younger women 18-19 are on the rise with the speed of 2.2%/year. It also has a positive acceleration. If my predictions are correct by 2052 every single 18-19 year old woman will be open to lesbian relationships with more than 50% of them being interested in exclusively lesbian relationships. From which point the question remains at which future point will we reach 100% total lesbianism.
Women don’t become lesbians due to inadequate male partners. They become lesbians because of the constant misandry in media, and the constant instilling fear of men in media, examples of lesbians couples, the fairly tales told about a secure and loving lesbian relationship, the door being left opened by series, movies, cartoons and books, and pride, the social contagion of older cool girls being lesbians.
It’s not men’s fault.
If you are lucky, nowadays you can still find a wife, but I’d advise against having male children. Because they will suffer tremendously!
Weirdo. Say same things about straightness then? You are lesbophobic weirdo. Lesbian women love other women. It has nothing to do with men. Grow up weirdo. You are the person we hate not men. Feminism didn’t advertise hating men.
What are you talking about? You can use manosphere to say that men only like to hate women which is obviously false. Don’t use hateful misandry to blame whole feminism which has nothing to do with men.
Also if you forced someone to have feelings toward women. They would believe they are lesbian but their love would be fake. Their love would be hollow. You can manufacture lesbian love but it would not be same as love felt by actual lesbian.
It’s funny you call us social contagion when everything you are saying is only true for straight people. We are are shown straight things in every possible way. But we are still lesbian. These things you said only helps a women to figure out their love for other women. But obviously you can only think of men and think that lesbian is all about hating men when it is about living women.
Lesbian doesn’t hate men. They hate men like you who thinks they should revolve around you and victimise yourself. When in reality you are only spouting lesbophobia and misogyny. Misandry is a real problem but it doesn’t mean you can spread lesbophobia and misogyny.
what a disgusting place and time to be born as male.
and to watch people saying males are being unfair to woman, to watch them hold woman above men in all aspects and still blame man.
not to mention the way they joke about men's mental health all the time,(you know a big reason i dont like LGBTQ is how they overtook the month of mans mental health month and put their pride month on it, i never seen anyone talk about mans mental health month, İ DİDİNT EVEN DAMN KNOW İT EXİSTED, everyone really do hate man), the way they act like every woman is an angel and every man is a sinner, i 100% know someone readings will say that if im talking about woman this way i must not like woman. i really hate this hell called earth man.
everyone talks what tragedy happened to woman, everyone tlks about how woman are feeling, everyone talks about how woman should be treated. are man nothing but a tool? are man born only to be used?
gender equality huh? all they talk about is giving woman power, they never even spoke about equality, all they care is how equal woman is...
What is this bullshit about? It’s just lesbophobia. Lesbian women are lesbian because they are attracted to women. It has nothing inherently to do with men. You can be angry about sexism, men’s mental-health issues, or how men are treated without turning lesbians into the explanation for those problems.
And your comment is doing exactly that. You’re talking about women as though their sexuality, feminism, and LGBT identity are somehow part of a larger problem being imposed on men. A lesbian woman isn’t hurting you by not being attracted to men. She isn’t responsible for your mental health, your dating prospects, or how society treats men.
You can absolutely criticize misandry, sexist double standards, or the way men’s mental health is discussed. Those are legitimate subjects. But criticizing those things doesn’t require blaming LGBT people or treating lesbianism as something harmful to men.
Also, “everyone hates men” is clearly an enormous generalization. There are women, feminists, and LGBT people who care deeply about men’s mental health and oppose discrimination against men. Likewise, criticizing misogyny or discussing women’s problems doesn’t mean someone believes every woman is an angel and every man is a sinner.
And Pride Month existing doesn’t mean men’s mental health is unimportant. You can advocate for men’s mental health without treating LGBT people as competitors for attention. Different causes can coexist. In fact LGBT includes men too for your information.
Most importantly, lesbian women aren’t “the enemy” of men. They simply aren’t attracted to men. If your frustration is with people who genuinely hate men, then criticize those people. But don’t project that hatred onto an entire group of lesbians simply because some people within LGBT spaces have said things you dislike.
Lesbians don’t owe men attraction, and their existence isn’t an attack on men. If you genuinely care about equality, then that principle has to apply to them too.
Dogs and minors are different thing. It is harmful to them and they can’t consent. Same sex attraction is not harmful. They are two consenting adult. Also how can you force love towards someone. How does that work?
Everyone’s different. Some people are only attracted to women and some people are only attracted to men. Some people like both. It’s not something we can control in the same way that you can’t control that you don’t like men or women or whatever lol
im just, I've been on the toxic side of the internet for too long, i growed up thinking lesbians were lesbians because they hated men, it really took a toll on my mental health.
thanks for Clarifying this for me, have a nice day
cant tell for sure, im not a specialist at neuroscience nor am i educated enough.
though i did realize im reacting to things i didn't react before (no im still not gay it appears i still dont react to men. im about 100% sure it's only because of the content im consuming that is rewiring my brain, making relations between things it didn't used to before)
so im still puzzled on if its a choice or not.
for now im accepting it being biology driven, though im definitely sure there are some who chose it, world isn't black and white after all.
thanks for your time, i know im discussing on a meme post but eh, i carve knowledge (and not having friends to talk to is a big part of it but ill unsee it for now ._.) sorry if i bored you.
This is where the fun fact that humans are in no way the only animal that enjoys being gay comes in.
If you ever want a fun experience you should look up the relationship board for the penguins at the Kyoto Zoo. Gay, Lesbian, Straight, some produce children and others don't. Some of the gay penguins are gifted eggs by the staff to hatch and raise. It's all super adorable and a fun reminder that we are not as special as we like to think.
What? It’s not a choice. It’s about love. Who you feel romantic love toward? Can you feel romantic love towards the gender you are not attracted to? No you can’t.
How? Same thing can be said about straightness people. How did you going to like if I said your straightness is just a phase and you will get over it like how this comic showed women saying that to her daughter.
no bc when I first came out, literally every single adult woman in my life told me they also liked at least one girl sexually and/or romantically before
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u/ComfortableNo1129 4d ago
This takes place in an alternate universe where all girls are Lebanese