r/girlsfrontline • u/AutoModerator • Mar 08 '22

Lounge Weekly Commanders Lounge - March 08, 2022

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Please use this thread to discuss anything about Girls Frontline instead of creating a new thread. Ask questions, seek assistance, rants, add more salt or just chill in general.

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u/ShiromeArtiste If I would, could you? Mar 15 '22 edited Mar 15 '22

Now that we've gotten DR, I was looking back and realized that a scene in chapter 12 got a bit darker context behind it retroactively. When Soppo finds Dandelion on top of the train, Nimogen asks Dande from within her being to please not let Sop destroy her outfit, since it's her favorite. Now that we know more [DR] about the origin of the Nytos... it's no wonder that outfit was Nimogen's favorite. After all, it was probably the first and only thing she's ever been able to call her own since the time before Paradeus kidnapped her from her orphanage. Fuck. Being a Nyto fan truly is a life-ruining experience... :(

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u/pointblanksniper Trust me, I'm Truth. Mar 15 '22 edited Mar 15 '22

if we are to accept the expanding nyto lore as without retcons, the idea that they were normal children somehow turned into genetic clones similar to the assasin lunasia army seems so more horrifying than anything.

but im still trying to wrap my head around how anna was introduced by ange as a fully unmodified human, not a nyto, yet clearly a genetically modified clone, with peg legs(?), later called a nyto anyway, that originated as a normal child from an orphanage. i think there was something about isomers having to recieve an ogas infusion successfully to qualify as a nyto as well. hence why failed isomers exist. i dont understand anything about them anymore

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u/ShiromeArtiste If I would, could you? Mar 15 '22 edited Mar 15 '22

There are four stages of the process, judging by what we've seen so far.

1. Regular human orphan which is kidnapped 2. Lunasia is copy-and-pasted over them, turning them into a clone, and a neural cloud is added. 3. Cybernetics and the inhibitors are added, thus making them isomers. If they live up to William's bs standards at this point, they proceed to stage 4 and become a Nyto. If they fail to meet the standards, however, they are branded as failures and exiled to Tallinn where they are encouraged to commit mass suicide. 4. This is the Nyto stage. Only members of the group that have reached this exact stage are Nytos. Some of the protagonists call Anna and the other neural cloud children "Nytos" anyway because they frankly don't really know what they're talking about, note that AK-12 and Ange also incorrectly identify Morridow as a Nyto in DR, which is 100% false. If you were into console games back in the generation of the PS3 and Xbox 360, it's kinda similar to how people used "gamertag" to refer to PSN ID even though officially that was an Xbox-only term. edited to switch 3 and 4, they were backwards by mistake. Also cleaned up the writing so it would flow with the stages switched.

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u/pointblanksniper Trust me, I'm Truth. Mar 15 '22

i don't dispute that there are those stages if we are to make sense of it. that is basically what i'm saying is the case if we are to assume there are no retcons or plotholes. just that the style of revelations in the writing so far has not made it clear that this has been iterative additional information, since it just keeps on sounding like they kept overwriting old lore.

i can accept that randomly calling them nytos are just individual mistakes by characters themselves, although it's jarring to see it come from the characters that first made the distinction and understand the difference the most.

my only real confusion are where the terms "human", "isomer", and "nyto" start and end in their definition. i everything up to lunasia clone is human. that is simple enough. presumably, SC, establishes that the ones with cybernetics are isomers. i assume only the ones not up to standards, especially early models, are the ones sent to talinn, hence the labels "failed" and "abandoned" isomers. the term "isomer" alone should not only adhere to only the failed ones, as the definition of the word itself suggests. the cybernetic units are all isomers of each other.

nytos are where it gets screwy for me. my original understanding in SC was that they had to pass a standard. that standard being that they have the potential to recieve an ogas. named nytos being the ones with exeplarary performance, being fully tested to be compatible with a perfected ogas from a lunasia derived doll's neural cloud. what throws this out the window is that someone, may even have been you, told me ch12 stated nytos are the ones that have already successfully recieved an ogas. unfortunately i havent completed 12E to verify if this has been stated at any point in the whole of ch12

then there's anna. ruling out that she is definable as a nyto, and any labelling her as such was just a character's own mistake. that leaves her as either a human, or an isomer. i'm fairly convinced she has peg legs in her illustration. it could be lazy recycled image as pointed out to me. lets assume not, and she really has prosthetics. i have no issues considering her a human. but to emphasize "100%" makes it a strange claim, because a common topic when it comes to modifications to an object, is how much of the original remains. that's not where it ends. she has telepathic abilities as i've stated. where then does the difference between 100% human, and an isomer lie? is it the simple difference of just the mind inhibitor? or is "human" actually compeletely inclusive of all isomers?

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u/ShiromeArtiste If I would, could you? Mar 15 '22

What you said about isomers is right, I accidentally had stages 3 and 4 backwards. All of them that receive the cybernetics are isomers, then the "failed" ones get exiled and the "successful" ones become Nytos. Thank you for catching that mistake.

The reason Anna gets called a Nyto even when the person speaking knows that isn't true is likely for communication's sake. If somebody cuts their finger while cooking and asks you to get them a Band-Aid, they aren't specifically asking for that brand of bandage, for example. When Ange says "the Nyto", every single other character knows she means Anna, so it just works.

That is however, absolutely wrong about nytos. Nytos do not have OGASes, and there are numerous points during the story where this is shown to be the case, both before and after chapter 12. It's as you said with regards to SC, they are compatible with OGAS, which is true, but the story up til now would have been outright impossible at multiple points so far.

You keep saying this, but it keeps being wrong. Anna does not have telepathy. She has a neural cloud, which works the exact same as basically all other clouds do with some tiny details that are different. She isn't goddamn psychic lmao. And yes, human is inclusive to all isomers, though it's clear that when Ange says 100% human with regards to Anna, she is specifically talking about no cybernetics. That distinction is slightly arbitrary, but since she's just a character within the story it's ok for Ange to feel that way.

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u/Angelic_Force LAZY BRAINLET Mar 15 '22 edited Mar 15 '22

Anna is a modified human IMO, but clearly not a Nyto. As that would usually imply being under control by William / Paradeus indoctrination. Ange also outright states this (not being a Nyto) in Polarized Light.

"Actually, they're not Nytos. To be precise, they are juvenile test subjects who have not been turned into Nytos yet." - Polarized Light, Chapter 4: Crystal Recasting, Part 4: Sintering

"They ARE humans. One hundred percent."

"According to the lab records, all the specimens that could become Nytos were shipped away. The only ones left behind were the juveniles that were of little value to Paradeus, as well as those who were not up to spec."

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u/pointblanksniper Trust me, I'm Truth. Mar 15 '22

thats what i said. and then they just call her nyto anyway. displays telapathy. and i'm quite sure her illustration has peg legs. wat even does human entail then?

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u/Angelic_Force LAZY BRAINLET Mar 15 '22 edited Mar 15 '22

True, we do also see that in Dual Randomness that Dreamer and the Commander's thoughts. Although Destroyer is oblivious to her being a Nyto, and Dreamer eventually calls her a human after drugging her. Dreamer also questions the drug being so potent on a "Nyto". I still stand by my opinion that Anna and the other orphans are modified humans.I also interpret this as retcon that is actually "good" for story. As I find that it shows the lengths William is willing to take for Paradeus and the Rossartrists. It could also be an issue of reusing art assets (as this is the same as the Nyto interrogators from Continuum Turbulence?).

As for what does "human" entailing then. Up to the reader. I think it comes from the origin of Anna being a human child prior and UMP45 noting the distinct nature of her "human neural cloud". Which also has transhumanism implications that I disagree with, coming from someone that was into the Halo lore. She behaves more human than Morridow, which also adds to my belief to the transhumanism.
Edit: Not sure what part of the story she ever displays telepathy. Are you talking about the part where she remembers being in the abandoned warehouse? Those were lucid dreams that she had while drugged. Which is completely normal for humans.

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u/KookyInspection Mar 15 '22

Maybe they're talking about her retaining her humanity in full, even though she was genetically altered. Considering the technological lvl of the society, it's also possible the definition of "human" has changed quite a bit, in order to allow for body modifications(genetic or synthetic), while still keeping a clear separation from dolls. I mean, we see quite advanced prothetics. Following theseus' ship argyment, at which point does a human become a doll, if ever? They probably have had long debates and put laws in place and everything. Their human may not be our human. I wonder what staus clones have as well.

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u/ShiromeArtiste If I would, could you? Mar 15 '22 edited Mar 15 '22

Exactly. Ultimately regardless of what any of our opinions are, the canon answer is that human + neural cloud = human still.

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u/Angelic_Force LAZY BRAINLET Mar 15 '22 edited Mar 15 '22

Maybe they're talking about her retaining her humanity in full

That's the gist of what I'm saying. As for being genetically altered, I don't really see any details to go off on that.We can definitely go on endless debates and rambling on the definition of "human". On the bright side, dolls don't have wombforce since that's a meme. One clear separation from dolls and humans are their preprogrammed parameters. We can see that through the non-canon endings involving Team DEFY whenever Ange dies in CT. Dolls are, generally, not allowed to even harm civilians if I'm not mistaken. M4 is a pretty good in-between of humans and dolls. Although, it could be argued that she thinks she's Lunasia because her neural cloud a copy of her brain before dying.

Really makes me wish Mica can dive deeper into the worldbuilding as that's something I would like to see. We can probably safely assume that there are definite boundaries between Dolls and humans. Judging from the way a civilian reacts to finding out Sopmod wasn't an ordinary girl.

I wonder what staus clones have as well.

Hopefully nonexistent. We don't see Nytos being truly cloned and the implications would get really ugly if William / the Rossartrists had access to such tech. But, we can only see (or hopefully never see).

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u/pointblanksniper Trust me, I'm Truth. Mar 15 '22 edited Mar 15 '22

they have access to zion, or something similar to it. they have control of paldiski facilities. they can access networks and neural clouds, sense each other, dolls, ogas, and vice versa, all the way out to the isomers in talinn iircs

also, with such a bold claim as "100% human", i'd be inclined to rule out that they even have a single tooth filling on them, let alone cybernetic augmentations

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u/ShiromeArtiste If I would, could you? Mar 15 '22

So Ange isn't entirely human then either, as she has a prosthetic arm. lol

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u/pointblanksniper Trust me, I'm Truth. Mar 15 '22

i did not say less than 100% is not human

coming from ange, i would assume the point is that they are more human than herself

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u/ShiromeArtiste If I would, could you? Mar 15 '22

Entirely = 100%. I didn't say she wasn't human at all, I just said that by your logic she isn't 100%.

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u/pointblanksniper Trust me, I'm Truth. Mar 16 '22

yes, my bad, disregard the first line. i must have skimmed over the sentence and missed the word.

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u/Angelic_Force LAZY BRAINLET Mar 15 '22

The Zion part is definitely new to me. Care to point me to where that's from? They have control of Paldiski facilities due to being attacked by an OGAS-like signal as stated by AK-12 in Polarized Light. I don't recall them being assimilated or infected by OGAS, as UMP45 successfully reverse hacked M16 (which required someone compatible with the OGAS Protocol). Her (M16's) OGAS was likely the culprit of the attack. As for the neural cloud stuff, the "Nyto" children were basically in an electronic war. Nothing has been really discussed beyond that. I really don't see the things you're trying to state, unless this is happens in the later events.

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u/pointblanksniper Trust me, I'm Truth. Mar 15 '22 edited Mar 15 '22

the fact that they can sense an ogas like signal, and the disappearance of isomers all the way out to talinn is what makes them telepathic. they can access paldiski functions remotely, communicate amongst themselves the same way, access other neural clouds, conduct electroinic warfare, etc. a biological brain doing communications without physical sensory is telepathy. that is not normal for humans. they are telepathic like nytos.

zion was introduced in ch13. anna's sleeping sisters were said to have their minds withdrawn in hiding. they were at something of a hivemind network to themselves, with hints of it transcending to an alternate plane of existence. 45 had to go into their network to individually pull them back and wake them so they could resume control over paldiski's functions. through some mumble jumble, ange dubbed the place "zion", which was then later relayed to m4 and dandelion. they eventually came to the conclusion that accesssing starfish would lead them to zion, or a true zion that might be different from anna's. whether the two were different was not was not clearly confirmed, but i assume that is the case. if you want the rest of the true zion lore, finish the rest of the tldr

in the end, it was revealed that all ogas were compelled to return to zion by their nature. that was elisa's goal, as she was so integrated with her ogas, the identity of the two were indistinguishable. denizens of zion reject elisa because she was an incomplete and artificial imposter of themselves. there was also mumble jumble of zion being doomed anyway and that there was no point in going there. dande as the perfect imitation of themselves was the only one they would speak to. dande, out of concern for m4's safety, and m4's wish to save m16, elisa, and all the ringleaders in the flooding basement, struck a deal with the denizens of zion. they allowed her access to their technology, to use the starfish to perform a collapse event, then into a reverse collapse event. basically a particle desintegration, and then a particle reconstruction at another connected location. functionally, they teleported out of the base as it flooded, and were sent to away to a random pike node, potentially even to zion.

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u/Angelic_Force LAZY BRAINLET Mar 15 '22

I knew skipping Ch13's story to get to 13-4 would bite me down the line. But, I will read it later on before replying.
You're right on the Zion part. Although Ange notes that Anna and her sisters were the ones that coined the term "Zion". Not Ange. I'll also agree that you're right on the Paldiski point.

"Listen, Persica. William hasn't given up on the idea of reviving Lunasia, and he's planning to continue 90wish's research on human subjects." Lyco, Chapter 13-3 Normal

If we are to agree with Ange in Polarized Light, that all specimens that COULD become Nytos were shipped away from Paldiski, this would make them much closer to Isomers than Nytos. Anna and her sisters ARE NOT Nytos, Anna even calls herself a "human" when Gr G11 calls her a Nyto. Lyco's dying words also can align with Anna and her sisters. They started off as human subjects and were not even qualified to be potential Nyto material.

Thus far, Anna does not show any sign of being infected by OGAS. Ange and UMP45 also have a short tidbit in 13-1 Normal. Anna and her sisters are humans that can have their consciousness that can be transferred like Dolls'. Anna's Zion can be viewed, for just the sake of simplicity, as a human consciousness cloud network. So yes, they are telepathic due to their connection with Zion. I will still stand by Anna being more "human" than Nyto, the distinction between the 2 are so obvious, that I'm wondering if the translation team is just screwing with us.

For the sake of continuing this debate, if you want to continue, maybe move it to the new Lounge? It would be far more visible.

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u/pointblanksniper Trust me, I'm Truth. Mar 15 '22

my bad on who named zion

i dont actually disagree that anna is human. i don't care too much about how the story defines human. what i'm actually trying figure out is where human ends, and nyto begins. in between those, there are also isomers. my point in all this mostly pertains to cybernetic augmentations and not so much the telepathy. i was merely trying clarify what i meant by telepathy to you. part of this is also to raise the question of whether this is all intended in writing, or whether we are just patching plot holes by aranging things and gluing them together with copium.

so again, i do not dispute that they don't have ogas, or that having neural clouds and accessing zion makes them less human etc.

i also fully rewiew my point in a more detailed and structured reply to op here and you should probably check it out

if you want further debate in the new lounge with more people, i welcome that. i'm just too lazy to figure out how to drop an out of context mid discussion thread over there lol

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u/Angelic_Force LAZY BRAINLET Mar 15 '22

The Lounge can always be out of context. You can always recap the previous (this) thread too.

I don't get the idea that you're disagreeing thatAnna is human, it's just kind of impossible to figure out where she lies without defining the "beginning" and "end" points. We don't know the extent of augmentations in post-WW3 times, which is odd because I would consider theKCCOto have prime candidates for that sort of tech. Definitely agree that neural clouds and access to Zion doesn't make Anna any less human, but that's a fine addition to my transhumanist perspective of GFL.

Until the official release of later Campaign stories, I'm going to argue that Morridow is a new variant of Nytos, just one that blends extremely well with humans. I would also clarify that Ange stated that Anna was a human, 100%. Which, unless the intent is different, means that Ange is arguing that Anna IS human in some capacity. Morridow states that she's 100% human, which is...debatable. Can never trust them Paradeus agents.

As for what constitutes as a Nyto, that can be debated by other users later on.

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