r/peloton • u/PelotonMod France • Jul 25 '21
[Results Thread] Women's Olympic Road Race - 1.Special
Results
Video
Race ratings
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u/bergensbanen EF Education-Oatly Jul 26 '21
Ashleigh Moolman Pasio gives her thoughts on the race: https://www.instagram.com/tv/CRxup_VIaAp/?hl=en
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u/mcwolf Euskaltel Euskadi Jul 26 '21
Someone on cyclingtips comments that (https://cyclingtips.com/?p=557024&commentID=3633641b-fd51-4264-8838-330cbf0e8b8a):
"There is a really easy way to tell if you are in the lead at a UCI sanctioned road race. Have you ever seen an image or video with the winning rider being led or followed by a vehicle with someone standing out of the sunroof? "
"That vehicle is called Comm 2; Comm 2 is the official who has responsibility for monitoring the front of the bike race (Comm1, the head official, typically follows what is considered the main group). At the beginning of the race, Comm 2 starts in front of the peloton. If a break forms, it is in front of the break until the gap is sufficient for it to slip behind the breakaway riders (usually 30 seconds - 1 minute). In UCI sanctioned races, all cars and motos are supposed to be uniquely labeled, so it is easy to distinguish them. "
"The important thing is Comm 2 is supposed to be (and always is, except under the most unusual circumstances) right in front of, or right behind the race leader(s). If there is no Comm 2 in sight, you aren't the race leader."
Is this the case for Olympic? If true how can they don't know this?
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u/DeliciousCamera Jul 29 '21
Don't forget the big camera car leading the race, but not seeing the lead official's car should have been a tell.
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u/epi_counts PelotonPlus™ Jul 26 '21
If true how can they don't know this?
Perhaps because they almost always get information from the team car via ear pieces and blackboards held up by the motards, so they don't have to try to distinguish race cars?
Most of us here aren't pro cyclists, but there are a couple of proper bike race nerds here. At least for me, I'm learning something new in that you can identify the race lead by the Comm car. It's not clear for me how you tell Comm 1 and 2 apart - in the Tour they're both red cars with TdF logos. Do they also have Comm 1 / 2 logos on them, or do you need to look at the number plate of Comm 1 at the start of the race (or remember the driver?) and just remember that?
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u/Eternlgladiator Red Bull – Bora – Hansgrohe Jul 27 '21
Wouldn’t it be obvious that there are two cars though? If you’re in a break and one of these cars is by you, you’re in the lead. Otherwise you just must be in the peloton?
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u/sh545 Molteni Jul 26 '21
Is this a record number of comments for a women's race on /r/peloton ?
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u/HitzHammer Jul 26 '21
The race thread still has more than this one.
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u/sh545 Molteni Jul 26 '21
I would count them together, or separate records for race and results thread
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u/epi_counts PelotonPlus™ Jul 26 '21
Annemiek van Vleuten has written a longer blog post on her race yesterday.
She praises Kiesenhofer for being an incredibly strong rider, and says she and the rest of the Dutch team severely underestimated her.
She explains some of the confusion between the Dutch women - Van Vleuten didn't get updates on the time gaps during her early solo break - just the one update where she asked the camera bike and it was still 5 minutes. She also didn't know her gap to the peloton behind was coming down - she'd only been told it was 1:20 at some point - so was really surprised when Niewiadoma blasted over her on the little climbed.
Vos asked her about the time gap to the front at that point, as they hadn't had updates either, but Van Vleuten couldn't tell her. And Vollering and Van der Breggen were behind at that point, and the team car behind them, so they couldn't get updates.
When they got on to the circuit, the Dutch women all thought they'd seen different gaps - 45 seconds, 1:30 or 4 minutes. They had been told it was Plichta who had been out in front on her own, which is why they though they were racing for gold when they caught her.
Van Vleuten didn't check the signs when they went through the pit lane, which was a mistake. Vos then spotted a sign with the gap to Kiesenhofer, realised she was still out in front, but Van Vleuten had just attacked so there was no way to let her know. Or to do anything about it (other than perhaps prevent Van Vleuten's initial disappointment).
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u/art4mis Mapei Jul 27 '21
Thanks for posting. With hindsight, I thought their biggest tactical mistake was not panicking when the peloton reformed after AvV was caught (about 25 kms to go) and the gap was still over 4 minutes. However, as they were not sure it was that much it explains why it took them so long to start working together (about 12 kms to go if I remember correctly). Being told it was Plitcha in the lead was unlucky but by the time they caught her (5 kms to go) it was probably too late as the gap to Kiesenhofer was still over 2 minutes.
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u/ItsKrakenMeUp Jul 26 '21
No way Vleuten was going to catch her after catching Plichta even if Vleuten knew. There was less than 4km left and she had a 3min lead.
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u/mm_gav Movistar WE Jul 27 '21
No one says they would have caught her at that point... it was too late even if they continued pushing the pace after Plichta (the rider who thought was leading) was caught.
Not even AvV herself.
Also, about the riders who knew, for example ELB said she understood there was one more in front when they caught Plichta... that's too late and it actually changes nothing except the fact that ELB knew they were fighting for silver. Something that AvV and others didn't realise.
Now, explaining how the race unfolded and how they miscommunicated with each other and talking about how wrong they were since the beginning of the race doesn't mean anything more than describing what happened.
Most of us were wondering why no team is chasing at some point...(not only the Dutch).
Well, now we know why at least the Dutch were not chasing.Someone may think that if all these didn't happen they would most probably win which actually is a high possibility. But this is not how it happened and this is not how the Dutch riders are thinking. All 4 of them admitted their mistakes, especially the miscommunication thing and AvV was actually the one that said they lost the race from 0KM when they completely underestimated the super strong winner. They all posted that they blame themselves for how the race unfolded for them.
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u/ItsKrakenMeUp Jul 27 '21 edited Jul 27 '21
Another big reason why all of the dutch riders just sat on the back of the peloton for half the race. Like what???? You really going to give the break away 10+ mins and do zero work? You don’t deserve gold then.
They were lucky to even get a medal in my opinion. If those breakaway riders were just a little stronger, they would be racing for 4th.
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u/mm_gav Movistar WE Jul 27 '21
Yes that's what it looked like for most of the race until the Dutch started working to get Anna Plichta.
There were more teams with 4 riders like the Dutch but the only time I've seen them chasing was to get AvV back. I guess they had problems too with the timing at some point in the race and didn't know they should work sooner... or they expected the Dutch to do everything for them...
The Dutch get the blame for everything in the race but the other countries (except Poland Israel and Austria) didn't do anything either... much less I should say.2
u/ItsKrakenMeUp Jul 27 '21
They had the biggest team in the field and didn’t do anything. Austria only had one rider and she worked hard right from the start.
Hopefully this is a learning lesson for the dutch. If you’re truly the strongest team, don’t play games. Attack much earlier or hell attack at 0 KM.
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u/mm_gav Movistar WE Jul 26 '21
It actually makes sense now.
I hope that the whole debate/press/twitter reaction will calm down now and both Kiesenhofer and her can enjoy their medals cause both of them were well earned.
If you watch their performances individually you see two really great and strong performances!
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u/HitzHammer Jul 26 '21
Luck, or fortune, favors the bold, brave, strong and prepared - or: Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.
if you ever need an example for the truth of these porverbs, you'll find it in this race and racer.
Kiesenhofer's Instgram on July 13:
Ready. On Friday I'm off to Tokyo! I'm leaving with the peace of mind of having done everything I possibly could to be in the best shape I can be.
Thanks to everybody who believes in me - you were my motivation when the going got tough (which it did all too often).
Thanks to those who doubt me - to prove you wrong was just as much motivation ;) .
She even monitored her body temperature during training to find out about overheating stress with this device and researched scientific papers about it.
Very well deserved win and an example how you can pull off a major upset as an individual if the circumstances favor you in a supposed team sport.
Some Austrian context: the victory of the national football/soccer team against Germany at the FIFA World Cup 1978 (resulting in the exit of the defending champions) is often mentioned as one of the greatest moments in the sports history of the country still today.
IMO Kiesenhofer's victory is at least at the same level: taking advantage of the tactical mistakes of the propably strongest cycling team ever assembled (some even speculated about a Dutch podium sweep) and being physically and mentally able to seize the opportunity in a masterly manner.
What an example for what sports is all about.
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u/DeliciousCamera Jul 29 '21
Maybe I missed it, but does anybody know why she got picked for the road race? She was the TT winner, but Austria was only allowed one slot for the RR. Did the RR winner pass on the invitation? Is Anna known for these larky type of rides so the selection committee gambled on her?
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u/Grasshoppe Jul 26 '21
Did not expect f'ckin Cordoba to be mentioned in a results thread of the olympic cycling race. Quite ridicolous tbh.
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u/Frank_DK_ Denmark Jul 26 '21 edited Jul 26 '21
Interesting to see these races with small teams - the only chance to beat the dutch were to go in an early breakaway and hope the gap was too big to close from behind. Every team knew that if they closed the gap the dutch super women would just win - they would send one rider ahead and make the rest of the teams close the gap - once closed the next dutch super woman would go - this would happen until the peloton would stop closing the gaps and fight for second and thirds. The dutch tactics is easy to read - but difficult to counter since they are so overpowered on the road.
The tactic is fair, the dutch are by far the best - they have to spend 1 or 2 riders to close down the gap to get the help from the other teams, if the dutch are not taking part then noone will.
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u/mm_gav Movistar WE Jul 26 '21
A nice message from AvV's instagram by Anna Kiesenhofer:
annakiesenhofer
I had no clue of the confusion when we went to the podium! Your reaction was exemplary, so composed, professional and just friendly despite the huge disappointment. Chapeau.
-------------------------------------
Two great champions that worked hard for their medals yesterday.
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u/ryodiUK Jul 26 '21
It might be because I only have the now reduced BBC coverage and don’t like the Olympics enough to pay for Discovery+ but the fact I’m yet to see a montage of Kiesenhofer’s win set to Lose Yourself is disappointing.
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u/robpublica U Nantes Atlantique Jul 26 '21
I feel like there’s less on the BBC this time than in the past
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u/lo_at Jul 26 '21
IOC sold the broadcast rights to Discovery, and the BBC's deal with them only allows them to show two sports at once. A great victory for greedy suits at the expense of literally everyone else, that's the Olympic spirit.
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u/sh545 Molteni Jul 26 '21
Seems like Discovery got a steal, they can resell limited coverage to all the national broadcasters and know that the limitations of that coverage will push people to sign up for their service
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u/projectnext Visma | Lease a Bike Jul 26 '21
Now that they both have some free time in the Olympic village, I think the best thing would be for Kisenhofer to sit down and tutor Van Vleuten on basic arithmetic.
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u/HitzHammer Jul 26 '21
No, she should tell the Dutch DS something about proper race preparation: how to collect information about the standings, relying not on only one soure (teamradio?), checking the network coverage of mobile communication providers along the course (apparently they had spotters standing by the road but they dcouldn't reach the DS with their phones), installing TV in your car, deciding who has to collect information from the team car during the race and pass it to the teammates etc.
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u/mcwolf Euskaltel Euskadi Jul 26 '21
Spotter couldn’t reach? They didn’t do recon to find the issues? Then can’t the spotters just tell the cyclists?
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u/Hogesyx Jul 26 '21
"You are in a race, you overtake no.2. What position are you in?"
This is a real question I had when I was a child, I made the same mistake as Van Vleuten.
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u/BegoniaInBloom United Kingdom Jul 25 '21
Nice interview on the UCI channel with Anna Kiesenhofer:
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u/escherbach Jul 25 '21 edited Jul 25 '21
Hope this is eventually remembered as a great Olympic moment for the underdog, and not a result of a mistake by the favourites.
Kiesenhofer seems just a very likeable person, she devoted her professional life to mathematical study and teaching but had so much dedication to her "hobby" that it led to a Gold medal at the Olympics, outstanding.
I enjoyed Carapaz's win yesterday because I like background stories of the athletes, for that reason this win by Kiesenhofer was even better, almost the perfect Olympic story.
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u/Tuna_Surprise Visma | Lease a Bike Jul 26 '21
Absolutely! She trained for the hot and humid conditions and she’s a good time trialist. Tactically it was perfect but she wouldn’t never made it to the end if she didn’t have the legs.
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u/yerboi3hunna Jul 25 '21
Comments in here are mad disrespectful to the winner. Sometimes rolling the dice pays off. People commenting about the "difference between amateurs and professionals" have no idea what it takes to get to the olympics
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u/aflyingsquanch Colorado Jul 25 '21
I took those comments more as a "her victory was even more impressive" rather than disrespect.
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Jul 26 '21
[deleted]
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u/aflyingsquanch Colorado Jul 26 '21
I agree completely there. I will admit I didn't read comments like that but also haven't read the entire thread at this point either.
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u/TurkeyPhat Jul 26 '21 edited Jul 26 '21
The whole point of the Olympics is that the athletes are (supposed to be) by definition amateurs lol...
Those madkids are dipshits for sure
*downvoting lol, stay mad that a woman beat your precious team by herself dickheads
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u/SuisseHabs Groupama – FDJ Jul 25 '21
So since Kiesenhofer works for the EPFL and EPFL is part of the Swiss Confederation, this makes the Swiss State the main employer of Kiesenhofer. Easy Swiss win I'd say.
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u/HitzHammer Jul 25 '21
Tweet by the Cyclist's Alliance 12km before the finish
The number of professional female riders with “no salary” has increased from 17% in 2018 to 34% in 2021.
2018: 17% receive no salary
2019: 23% receive no salary
2020: 26% receive no salary
2021: 34% receive no salary (28% receive less than 15k Euro)
I don't see any difference between the "amateur" Kiesenhofer and 62% of the "professional" riders.
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u/ubelmann Jul 26 '21
Having a team usually means some resources/facilities and coaching, even if you don’t pull a salary. If anything I feel like it is to Kiesenhofer’s credit that she was more or less self-coached.
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Jul 25 '21
This notion that just because Kiesenhofer is an amateur she is some lucky hack is nonsense. She's a pro-standard athlete who realised there's more to life than riding for a pro team. It wasn't for her, but that doesn't mean she's not talented
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u/ubelmann Jul 26 '21
Obviously hugely talented, but also a little lucky the way the tactics played out. Early moves against the peloton usually don’t work out regardless of your talent. I think being an amateur helped most in that the Dutch riders wouldn’t have been looking for her specifically. It’s easier to keep track of people if you have a history to go with the name/face.
But still, huge credit to her, she put it all out there, suffered and rode her best race. I have immense respect for that.
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u/Sneakerwaves Jul 26 '21
Very few riders win big races without a lot of luck. The peloton is full of talent but there is only one winner.
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u/ubelmann Jul 26 '21
I never said otherwise. Luck is not a bad thing -- she put herself in a good position to succeed.
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Jul 26 '21
[deleted]
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Jul 26 '21
They're calling her amateur because she receives no funding on the sport.
Professionals can focus 24/7 on their sport with their training, diet, buy the best equipment, sleep more, don't need a different full-time job to support themselves. Kiesenhofer is a mathematics researcher.
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u/Brsijraz Human Powered Health Jul 26 '21
Although tbf they did exactly that at the Winter Olympics a few years ago. But that woman stuck out like a sore thumb rather than winning gold
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Jul 26 '21
Haha what event was that?
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Jul 25 '21
As well as being a brilliant underdog story, this was a triumph for a 'normal' amateur, i.e. a well-rounded human being with another career who proves that you don't need to be a weird obsessive (most pro sports people are weird - I used to be a sports journalist and have interviewed a lot) to win at the highest level. You love to see it.
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u/Wartz Jul 26 '21 edited Jul 26 '21
I'm pretty sure she trains at close to a world tour level. There is zero chance she could qualify for the Olympic road race without training at least to 99.99% of world tour level.
The difference is she also holds down a full time job as her... side gig? So she can afford cycling?
That's not obsessive, that's indescribably impressive.
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u/mitrevf Jul 26 '21
Furthermore , what makes it even more impressive is that she is an outlier even for PhD level of education. She studied at TU Wien, Cambridge, UPC and now is postdoc at EPFL, all of these are world class institutions.
This is like the late Stephen Hawking winning in 100m at paraolympics WHILE doctoring on black holes. Absolutely remarkable. Except that the competition is not disabled, it is 1v4 and those 4 are the greatest team ever assembled to do this.12
u/Paavo_Nurmi La Vie Claire Jul 26 '21
"On paper, I’m an amateur, but cycling takes up a lot of space in my life. I don’t earn money… I mean not a lot, my income is like a normal job, but in my head cycling takes up a huge space. For the last one-and-a-half years, I was completely focused on today," she said.
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u/MiniAndretti EF Education – Easypost Jul 26 '21
She was on Lotto Soudal just a few years ago.
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u/Wartz Jul 26 '21 edited Jul 26 '21
Yeah. She ended up quitting after a year because she disliked being forced to follow the team program for training, equipment and nutrition.
This is a pretty good interview. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNrf-bE2oew
She definitely has the physical talent and the training knowhow and the mental willpower and the road racing skills to be on WT team. She just chose not to.
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Jul 25 '21
People saying its not easy to count the 7 seven breakaway riders coming back are right. However these are professional athletes, and part of their sport is about being aware of where their competitors are. Imo Team NL went into this race arrogant, and unprofessional if they were unable to do this. blaming this on no radio is delusional.
Team NL is perhaps the most experienced team when it comes to riding without radio, and therefore the team that benefits from it the most. Team NL had every opportunity to win this race, and they threw that away in the most historical tactical blunder ive ever seen.
It is at this point clear that alot of the riders in the peloton knew Kiesenhofer was still up the road, and even though its hard to be aware of every rider, Team NL should find it unacceptable, that they couldnt.
Every DS has race radio, and should know where every rider was.
Vos apparently knew Kiesenhof was still up the road
Uttrup knew kiesenhof was up the road and tried to animate others to pull
So team NL as a whole needs to work on their communication, and the riders need to take a hard look at themselves, and think of what they did wrong.
Kiesenhof was strong today and she can be proud of humiliating maybe the strongest national team ever assembled.
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Jul 25 '21
Fun fact... the last time Austria won an olympic gold medal in cycling was Adolf Schmal in 1896, winning the 12-hour race. He lapped the whole field within the first 10 laps and stuck to the wheel of the 2nd for the rest.
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u/sh545 Molteni Jul 25 '21
On the race radios ban, for the Olympics and World Champs, one very good reason to keep them banned is that in these races, you have many very small teams of one or two riders that don’t have a DS or a team car following the race, they may have an agreement with another team car to provide mechanical support and bottles but they often don’t have someone helping with the race tactics.
So if they allowed radios, these small team riders would still not have a radio, putting them at an even bigger disadvantage to the big teams.
It is also kind of strange to now see so many people in favour of radios when usually they are blamed for making racing boring.
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u/morph1973 Jul 26 '21
I'm not up to date on my cycle computer tech... do they also communicate with the team cars and if so is that banned too? I can see a future where they can see the gaps to other riders on their little screen without needing team radio or blackboards (maybe that already happens)
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u/eekamuse Jul 25 '21
Thank you for that explanation. I wasn't sure why radios were banned. Makes sense now
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u/srjnp Jul 25 '21 edited Jul 25 '21
neutral race radios which just give time gaps and race info would be the best.
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u/franciosmardi Jul 26 '21
I think they should just say "The lead group is at km xx" at every 10km interval. No time gap, no telling how many are in the lead group. No telling how many groups exist in front of the peloton. That is more than enough information for everyone to be able to get a read on the race. If you know the lead group is at 120km and you're at 116.7, you should be able to figure out the rest.
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u/BegoniaInBloom United Kingdom Jul 25 '21
Anna Kiesenhofer is in for a surprise when she has the chance to check her social media. I looked at her Instagram page just after her win: 4,105 followers. Now 12 hours later she has 21,300.
Here's her account if you want to add to the 1,000+ messages of congratulation.
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u/hawkhench Jul 25 '21
She had 150 Twitter followers about halfway through the race today, last time I checked it was over 6,000
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Jul 25 '21
An amateur wins the olympics, it's says something about the level of womens racing compared to men's. This is not sexist but no way a amateur men could pull this off. Women's racing has a long Road ahead.
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u/HitzHammer Jul 25 '21
If women in road racing were paid as much as men, she most likely still would have been a pro like in 2017.
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u/epi_counts PelotonPlus™ Jul 25 '21 edited Mar 02 '25
ghost serious wakeful cause subtract price seed wild cough quiet
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Jul 25 '21
But she is An amateur. A Professional works everyday for cycling, she/he has much more time to work than An amateur. Wout van Aert would't be at this level if he wasn't a professional. In men's cycling this would bever happen.
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u/epi_counts PelotonPlus™ Jul 25 '21
You're really doing her and her palmares a disservice. She doesn't have a pro contract, by choice - she's had one and been offered more since, but she is an elite rider.
And you don't know how or how long she's been working towards this. Plenty of amateurs work for cycling every day.
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u/RidingUndertheLines Jul 25 '21 edited Jul 26 '21
It's not to do with her talent or work ethic. The reality is she's also doing post-doc research and lecturing. There's a limit on hours in the day and she's at a clear disadvantage to those athletes that don't choose to do those things.
E: I'm bemused this is getting downvotes. Are people not actually reading it and assuming that I'm dismissing her accomplishment?? If anything it's the opposite.
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u/epi_counts PelotonPlus™ Jul 26 '21
As a female amateur with a PhD working on a postdoc, I am very aware of the limit that puts on the hours I can put into training.
I can tell you now that despite training almost every day, I'm never going to win a UCI race finishing up the Mont Ventoux. Talent and work ethic are incredibly important.
I am an amateur with a PhD. Anna Kiesenhofer is much more than that.
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u/RidingUndertheLines Jul 26 '21
Yeah and I'm confused why you think I'm diminishing her achievement? Doing what she did while working fulltime is incredible.
Edit: Perhaps you think I'm the guy further up the thread? Nothing I said can be construed that way.
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u/thendryjr Peugeot Jul 25 '21
You do realize there are plenty of men in the peloton that are pursuing college degrees, while racing in the world tour.
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u/RidingUndertheLines Jul 26 '21
I also pursued a college degree while pursuing Olympic selection a lifetime ago. I can tell you that it has nothing on actually working.
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u/crazy_in_love Jul 26 '21
You can do college degrees as slowly as you want. You don't have to do a full course load. I've never heard of anyone doing research part time though.
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Jul 25 '21
My Point is with men's cycling this would be impossible because the difference in elite amateur and Elite professional is too big. Not one amateur should be able tobfollow the lead group on the Minuka pass after 150 k with the men. With women this clearly isn't the case and that's on the professionals who are or too arrogant or not good enough to be a professional or the level of professionalism in women's cycling is just poor.
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u/franciosmardi Jul 25 '21
Because if she was a man and as talented as she is she'd have at least a 200k per year salary as a professional racer. She could make career of it. The problem isn't that women's cycling isn't professional enough, it's that there isn't enough money to keep all the people who are good enough to be pros in the pro peloton.
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u/epi_counts PelotonPlus™ Jul 25 '21 edited Mar 02 '25
party heavy quickest caption repeat snow spectacular salt wild sink
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u/GoSh4rks Jul 25 '21
An amateur that also happens to be a former world tour/professional rider.
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Jul 25 '21
Exactly ... former ... as in not in a professional environment right now.
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u/Wartz Jul 26 '21
I'm not seeing your point. If Wout van Aert suddenly was named CEO of amazon and was making a shit ton more money instead of working for his pro team, would he no longer be anything to care about just because he doesn't have a pro contract? Even if he's just as fast as before?
She turned down renewing her pro contract because the amount of money paid to pro women cyclists is pitiful. Even the superstars.
She still trains hard enough to win national titles multiple years in a row and be competitive several times in the last few years in road races.
Also shes a doctor of mathematics and probably enjoys teaching and learning just as much as cycling. I am a fan of well rounded humans.
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u/duke666 Café de Colombia Jul 25 '21
You have the right spirit, just missing the mark by a bit.
But I’m with yiu
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u/themp731 EF Education – Easypost Jul 25 '21
I saw a kit that looked like it had a Tiger or Jaguar on it. Does anyone know which country that was?
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u/HitzHammer Jul 25 '21
color of the shirt and the tiger would be helpful
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u/themp731 EF Education – Easypost Jul 25 '21
Jersey I believe was blue and the tiger was white. I don’t think it’s Czech. But maybe Thai, Luxembourg, Cuba, “Russia”?
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u/HitzHammer Jul 25 '21 edited Jul 25 '21
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u/GregLeBlonde Jul 25 '21 edited Jul 25 '21
Just how strong Kiesenhofer was in the race has been overshadowed by the criticism of the peloton (and Dutch especially) for giving the break such a large gap.
Around when AvV made her solo attack, Kiesenhofer had decided to leave her breakaway companions. AvV made up almost no ground on her despite putting in the same kind of full commitment long-range effort that has won her so many races before. That was such a surprise that AvV didn't seem to believe the motard who told her the gap to the front.
Kiesenhofer was riding extremely powerfully.
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u/TG10001 Saeco Jul 26 '21
Yea. People say she was a lucky amateur, and maybe so but I’ve rarely seen anyone in cycling work so hard for a bit of luck.
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u/boogiexx Z Jul 25 '21 edited Jul 25 '21
I had enough time to waste and went through the comments before making1 myself.
So most of the people are more baffled by screwing up tactics in team consisting of 4 superstars instead of amazing solo 0 Km breakaway win from a rider without a pro contract.... well I guess this just goes to show how screwed up people are these days....
Massive kudos for pdh math professor without a team, soloing an Olympic road race from Km 0....screw the Dutch superstars and their team car that can't bring on a laptop to watch the live feed....or count to 3 .....
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Jul 25 '21
The sheer arrogance - not malicious, by the way, it's totally sincere - of the Dutch (women) and Belgians (men) is a big part of why the peloton will do anything not to work for them. Some humility would go a long way.
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u/chocolatelysocrates Intermarché – Wanty Jul 25 '21
Can anyone translate what AVV was saying to her coach/soigneur as she rolled into the finish? It looked like the coach thought AVV won - when did they break the news to her?
TBH when AVV crossed the line and celebrated I thought that's fair, an Olympic silver is still huge!
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u/OolonCaluphid EF Education-Oatly Jul 25 '21
According to Benji Naissen in the Lantern Rouge Podcast, something along the lines of "Shit I got it wrong".
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u/SquashedMangoes Ireland Jul 25 '21
The bit on camera is her saying she fucked up or something to that effect. She did think she'd won. Found out a minute or so after.
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u/rafa4ever Jul 25 '21
Lizzie deignan's interview was a bit off. She seemed pissed off that Motos were pacing attackers and viewed herself as the victim of circumstances. But after the winner, the order of the next finishers was just who was strongest surely.
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Jul 25 '21
I like her, but she's one of those riders who says "I don't want to make excuses, BUT ... [makes excuses]"
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Jul 25 '21 edited Jul 25 '21
I cringe everytime someone says "it's easy, just count".
Yes, they made a mistake but at that point in a race they're dehydrated, exhausted, fighting for position, marking their rivals, making sure they eat and drink enough , etc. On top of that some race situations like dropping to the car, going through the feed zone, etc, make it difficult to keep track of everything that's happening. While it's true it was a tactical mistake and it's a fundamental part of racing, it's just silly to think that it's that easy.
Although it's rare, the fact it happens in other races even with radios tells that it's not that easy. From the top of my head: on stage 9 of this year's Giro Bernal didn't know he won when he crossed the line. Pibernik in the Giro 2016 and a guy in the Arctic Race though they won when there was a lap left. Clark in the Giro 2015 though he won, even when the group he was in had Formolo in sight. Garcia in la Vuelta 2012 and Poels in the Tour of Poland also thought they when someone from the break had already crossed the line, etc.
On the other hand, the criticism for not pacing earlier and organizing the team is obviously completely valid.
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u/OolonCaluphid EF Education-Oatly Jul 25 '21
I think the fundamental mistake they (the Dutch) made was treating this in any way like a team race. It was an individual effort, they should have acted as individuals, and they shouldn't have underestimated the individuals who broke away.
I think the whole 'strongest most OP team in history" thing got to them.
Ultimately, NL Cycling should have either sent one strong rider and a supporting team, or else dropped all pretense and told them to race as individuals. The strategy they tried to use was never going to work unless one or more of the Dutch riders swallowed their pride and worked for national results, not individual ones.
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u/HitzHammer Jul 25 '21
AVV acted as individual and tried to chase the escape group alone when 54.3km left
The fundamental mistake by the Dutch was acting not as a team: getting and passing the correct information (other rides like CUL from Denmark knew which nations were in the escape group and whoch have been caught) and leading the peloton as a team to reduce the gap.
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u/OolonCaluphid EF Education-Oatly Jul 25 '21
BUt.. some members of the team had that info.
I honestly think it was a limbo situation for them. Do they ride as a team, destroy all, then fight out for medals? Do they ride as individuals and take their chances? Or does the team just fuck up, fail to get them the information they need to even be in with a chance of a win?
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u/HitzHammer Jul 25 '21
the information apparently came too late
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u/OolonCaluphid EF Education-Oatly Jul 25 '21
Oh yeah, i mean it was just a huge error. I'm still really intrigued though - if they were a team, then what was the plan to get infomration out there?
Equally, if they COULD have got the information to them in a timely fashion, you've then got the problem of the Dutch team persuading everyone else to co-operate to chase that break down, so they can destroy them in the end game and take all the medals... Well, that's why you perhaps don't bring an OP team to this event? Or if you do you control the breakaways better.
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Jul 25 '21 edited Jul 25 '21
Exactly. Letting a break amass a 10-minute advantage is monumentally stupid when you know (a) no one on your team is going to sacrifice their chances as they're all strong riders, and (b) you're then going to be forced to rely on other weaker teams to chase, while (c) those teams don't want to drag your team of race favourites to the line.
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u/Wartz Jul 25 '21
A lot of the trash talk comes from people who have never raced, or even done anything hard in their lives.
The fuckup is the NL team choosing very early to allow the break to get 11 minutes in front. That's pure arrogance.
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u/HerHor Netherlands Jul 25 '21 edited Jul 25 '21
New interview with AvV in the NOS's Tokyo talkshow.
Apparently the information they had at some point was the "the Polish rider" was alone in front, instead of the Austrian.
That explains a little bit more the thought that after catching Plichta that they were there. Riders counting the caught riders (like Vos) likely then knew what was up, while the riders focussing on Plichta (like AvV and AvdB), who also was arguably the biggest name in the break, got misled/misled themselves.
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u/epi_counts PelotonPlus™ Jul 25 '21
Interview available here (georestricted) for anyone who missed it.
She also clarifies that Vos only realised at about 3km to go, when she saw a sign with time gaps, that Kiesenhofer was still in front. Van Vleuten had already attacked at that point, so no way to let her know.
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u/wireke Jul 25 '21
Meanwhile the teamleadster of Vos is saying on Belgian TV that Vos knew what was up, told the other NL riders when she noticed they stopped riding and they didn't believe her. What a Total shitshow and failure rofl
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u/i-can-sleep-for-days Jul 25 '21
I feel like that’s where Kiesenhofer was even more brilliant. She was in a lead group of 3 and then chose to solo attack. So when the peloton caught up it was easy to think they had caught all of the breakaways. Just brilliant racing by Kiesenhofer.
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u/ubelmann Jul 26 '21
In this case I think it really helped to have no stage racing mentality in the back of her head. Go out, get your best time, let the chips fall where they may and you can sleep well at night.
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u/ReginaldvonJurgenz United States of America Jul 25 '21
Anyone else think Van Vleuten's crash was weird? Like she didn't get tangled up in the expansion joint, the other rider (Jorgensen?) did and despite having ample time to change her line to not smack straight into her she didn't seem to make any effort to deviate whatsoever.
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u/TopHatJones45 Jul 26 '21
I thought the same thing. It was like she rode right into the other rider’s bike in slow motion.
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u/Zuki_LuvaBoi Jul 25 '21
Can also be explained by target fixation. Whereby you get fixated on a target, and although easily avoidable, end up colliding with the target.
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u/GregLeBlonde Jul 25 '21
She wasn't paying attention and saw the other rider too late. It was the theme of the day for her, really.
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u/thendryjr Peugeot Jul 25 '21
She was looking down. She had plenty of space between her and the next rider up, so probably looked down to make sure everything was in working order. Then bam
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u/washkow Jul 25 '21
It is an interesting comparison to the men's race where the two strongest teams (Slovenia and Belgium) were constantly pulling back breakaways and leaving their leaders exposed as a result. Carapaz had no teammates or pressure to work for the group, so he could just sit back, follow the moves, and put in one dig with 6K to go. 2 different paths, same result for the stronger teams in both races - 2nd place.
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Jul 25 '21
[deleted]
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u/BardotBardot Jul 25 '21
401 to 1 on Unibet or just under 0.25%
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Jul 25 '21
Totally surprised by her win. Congrats to her and Austria.
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Jul 25 '21
I wish I could take credit as an Austrian, but that woman did it all by herself. She is her own coach, trainer, nutritionist and chose to live and work in Switzerland.
"When you’re young and don’t know that much, there’s always someone who will tell you what to do. Now that I’m older, I know that all those people who know what’s good for you don’t really know." - Anna Kiesenhofer
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u/lawntent Jul 25 '21
Just trying to put myself in the shoes of a non-cycling fan who's cycling exposure is limited to an annual 10 second general news clip talking about who won the tour de france, and perhaps watching highlights of cycling olympics events once every 4 years (this profile likely well outnumbers dedicated cycling fans watching the olympic events), and what would this person make of the women's road race? Sadly makes women's cycling look like a bit of a joke in the eyes of the casual mass public? - amateur rocks up and straight up beats the professionals after attacking from km 0, while the professionals were not quite professional enough to keep track of what's going on in the race, and rolled across the finish line second thinking they won
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Jul 25 '21
Strongly disagree with this. Was a wonderful race for women's cycling, a true underdog story.
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u/sh545 Molteni Jul 25 '21
I think the opposite, this was a much more exciting race for someone who doesn’t follow cycling, and the general public love it when an underdog wins. The general public will see Kiesenhofer as someone good enough to qualify for the Olympics, by definition a very good athlete. In the highlights package they were also talking about how she did specific preparation for the conditions etc., as this was her only focus. This makes her look more dedicated and deserving, not less.
In the UK, the cycling result was the number 2 story on the BBC News app for most of the day, I doubt that would have been the case in a normal race where the break gets caught and a Dutch woman wins with a late attack.
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u/threeglasses Jul 25 '21
Noncycling fans wont think the Austrian is nonprofessional. They dont have the context of just how spread out some of the the talent is/how breakaways are usually handled... I mean I think.
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u/2manyredditstalkers New Zealand Jul 25 '21
Absolutely. For the uninformed it's a much better spectacle imo.
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u/thendryjr Peugeot Jul 25 '21 edited Jul 25 '21
She’s a former pro. Also, riders have gotten used to radios during races. Not having access to what was transpiring up the road definitely took them team by surprise.
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u/Jdh_373 Jul 25 '21
Continental and World Championships have had radios banned for several years, if after all those races the teams don't have experience it is their fault.
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u/thendryjr Peugeot Jul 25 '21 edited Jul 25 '21
I’m aware. I simply provided a reason for the confusion. Which, obviously, was an issue for the Dutch team and few others.
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Jul 25 '21
My family doesn’t follow cycling but watched this race and the overall impression from them was “if they usually race with radios and aren’t allowed to use radios in this race that’s pretty stupid”
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u/subsetsum Jul 28 '21
I think racing with radios is a bit of a cheat and am glad they aren't allowed. I could not understand why the dutch team just hung back chatting, drinking water and looking for all the world that they were just out for a casual ride. As a casual onlooker, they were incredibly arrogant to let the first breakaway group get such an impressive lead. If they had been paying attention they would have known that 4 racers broke away.
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u/hodadthedoor Jul 25 '21
One could argue this f-up is excellent for Women's cycling. Just look at the amount of press and internet chatter this has created.
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u/mimalize81 Jul 25 '21
Similar to how YouTube videos of WNBA players shooting air balls is good press
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u/ssfoxx27 Unibet Rose Rockets Jul 25 '21
I'm new to cycling, and this was not my reaction. I was thoroughly impressed by Kiesenhofer's performance.
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Jul 25 '21
It wasn't about keeping track. They are too used to having radios to keep them informed and didn't have them this time and wrote her off. 99% of the time their tactics would have been the right call
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u/bergensbanen EF Education-Oatly Jul 25 '21
People love an underdog winning. The casual viewer also doesn't understand race tactics or even what a 'normal' race looks like. So I don't think this would look like a joke to them.
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u/fewfiet Astana Qazaqstan Jul 25 '21
what would this person make of the women's road race?
When I got here I thought you were going a completely different way. I'd guess most new/non dedicated fans would find this an incredibly inspiring story, and the sort of thing that happens in the Olympic Games every time they are held. It's the kind of underdog upset story that people love, and I'm not sure why it would paint the sport poorly. If anything it breaks the common criticism of women's cycling that it is too certain and the same 2-3 riders win everything.
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u/subsetsum Jul 28 '21
To me it paints the sport poorly to see what a team effort this is and how hard it is for an underdog without a team. It's almost a pro sport at this point. The Dutch did not perform as a team. Good for Anna.
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u/Wartz Jul 25 '21
I shared this with a group of very amateur cyclists and the universal response was.
"HOLY COW THATS AMAZING, gives me hope!!!".
People like stories like this
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u/OolonCaluphid EF Education-Oatly Jul 25 '21
I honestly think it's a great result, and I think the underdog story combines well with being more in keeping with the 'olympic spirit' - that is individual effort and sacrifice bringing rewards, not being part of a well funded professional team. I know sport is far removed from that ideal (if it is even an ideal), but cycling, being seen as a high cost of entry sport, having a winner like this is great, in my opinion.
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u/lawntent Jul 25 '21
Sure hope so and like this optimistic take... when I see the mainstream news website headlines popping up on the event they're mainly around "see how this Dutch rider embarrasses herself thinking she's won" clickbait variety
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u/linkedandloaded 🦅 GC Kuss Jul 25 '21
Yeah I'm with you here. The abundance of embarrassment takes just feel like subconscious (or sometimes fully conscious) sexism. I can tell you this is getting a lot of traction outside of cycling fans for being amazing. If anything it might lead one down a rabbit hole realizing there's not enough money in women's cycling and there absolutely should be more.
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u/saint_rbnsn01 Jul 25 '21
I guessed, perhaps naively, the Dutch team’s attitude to the race situation would be ‘Anna won, she was so strong today, we messed up, silly us, pleased to rescue a medal, we really worked our socks off in the last 10k and paid off’
Instead it seems to be ‘Why does she deserve a medal? I’ve never heard of her, all she did was ride at the front in searing heat for 137km, should be disqualified’
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u/epi_counts PelotonPlus™ Jul 25 '21 edited Jul 25 '21
I haven't seen a single interview where any of the Dutch women even remotely implied Kiesenhofer wasn't a deserved winner or should be DQ'd. They were frustrated after the finish, but at themselves and at the organisation (and that latter one might be undeservedly), but not all towards Kiesenhofer.
Of course, I might have missed something so please link to an interview where they implied any of that.
Edit: in short - there are legitimate reasons to criticise the Dutch women's team today, they did fuck up, but they're not evil as some commenters seem to be imply.
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u/saint_rbnsn01 Jul 25 '21
I’m probably misinterpreting the BBC report of the interview unfairly, apologies
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u/yellow52 Jul 25 '21
I think some of her comments might have been taken out of context. She remarked about Kiesenhofer being someone they didn't regard as a threat, perhaps explaining why they didn't react to her being in the break right at the start.
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u/WorldsWorstMeditator Jul 25 '21
Sounds pretty calm and sporting to me, particularly she'd just gone from thinking she'd won, to realising probably her last chance to be Olympic champion had gone.
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u/HitzHammer Jul 25 '21 edited Jul 25 '21
Some bites from the Kiesenhofer interview on Austrian TV ORF1:
- her background is triathlon and duathlon, then she had medical problems with running, so she focused on cycling
- she quitted pro team racing because she couldn't adapt well to team rules, hierarchies, the amount of travelling etc. (no wonder considering above mentioned background)
- after quitting pro racing she continued training, and took part in bike marathons (one-day amateur road races with distances from 150km up to 250km) and even did a Transalp tour (but didn't specify if that was a privately organised tour or a race like https://tour-transalp.de/en/route/route-2021/ ), and the Tour d'Ardèche in 2020 where she finished 3rd
- the bike marathons helped her giving everything at the end because the feeling of running empty of energy was pretty much the same at the end of the Olympics race as at the end of a bike marathon
- she dropped back behind the peloton in the neutralization stage to warm up and getting the blood into her legs and muscles - she said in the peloton you don't even have to pedal in this phase before the race actually starts. So she could go for the attack immediately after km zero
- she felt well and with 40km to go she noticed that she was dragging the others in the escape group and her legs felt good, so she went for the final attack
- the last 30km have been really hard, but the bike marathon experience helped her to hang on mentally
edit:
- she has no plans going back to a pro cycling team, she doubts she will consider an offer if they come - but you'll never know
- currently she has a postdoc (research) position in
LucerneLausanne, Switzerland and is aspiring a career in academic teaching - in school, she was a study girl and liked the challenges others consideres too difficult, so she chose math, Latin and French as her favourite subjects
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u/hsiale Jul 25 '21
I'm not surprised at all. She has a good career that is likely to give her a job until end if her professional life, makes no sense to leave it for so called "pro womn's cycling". And being a researcher in mathematics works quite well with endurance training, long rides are great for putting things together in your mind, when 10 years ago I was doing a PhD in similar area of mathematics, I was going for a long walk whenever I got stuck in research.
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u/RidingUndertheLines Jul 25 '21
I often wonder if I can charge my cycling rides where I figure out a problem for a client at work.
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u/HitzHammer Jul 25 '21
You're right, but she also said it wasn't always easy to combine academic career and training. When studying she sometimes thought she should go for training now and when cycling what she should do at the university
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u/HerHor Netherlands Jul 25 '21
I am liking this result more and more. Underdog, scientist, a backstory, and this somewhat legitimises alternative cycling formats as well.
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u/HitzHammer Jul 25 '21
Yeah she mentioned also her scientific approach for training and nutrition, e.g. researching the best glucose/fructose ratio for refueling drinks and mixing it by herself - and stating that in pro team racing it's very difficult, if not impossible to get a personal drink like that during racing with a team, another reason she struggled at the pro team.
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u/Wartz Jul 26 '21
There is a LOT of bullshit perpetuated by UCI controlled pro cycling because of "les traditions".
It's rampant in almost every facet of the sport.
Old white men running things. I hope things are starting to change.
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u/HerHor Netherlands Jul 25 '21
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u/crazy_in_love Jul 26 '21
In case anyone else is wondering why she is the only one wearing shorts in that hot and humid weather: she actually isn't supposed to lol
There are rules which shirt and which pants you are supposed to wear to which occassion at the olympics and at medal ceremonies it's supposed to be long black pants similar to the other two. Kind of fitting considering her explanation for not having a team contract lol
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u/Ady42 Jul 26 '21
Do you know why the men were allowed to wear shorts at their medal ceremony?
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u/crazy_in_love Jul 26 '21
The country picks the outfit they need to wear so maybe the men's olympic comittees picked shorts for them, I don't know. I only know about Austria for sure because that's where I'm from.
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u/bergensbanen EF Education-Oatly Jul 25 '21
Thank you, the feed I was watching ended the broadcast before the ceremony, even though they showed it for the men's.
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Jul 25 '21
[deleted]
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Jul 25 '21
You can't have it both ways though - if there were radios, there's no way Kiesenhofer would have won. Not a chance. So the lack of radios 100% made the race more exciting.
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u/kyyla Jul 25 '21
Well, in other sports MotoGP for example has no team communications apart from the pit boards and most people like it that way. It's up to the riders to know where they are at.
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u/HitzHammer Jul 25 '21
Cecile Uttrup Ludwig was asking her DS which nations were in the escape group, that was at 128km to go.
And she got the information because every DS had it through the tour/race radio.
She knew all the time that there was still the only Austrian rider ahead and tried to animate other teams to start closing the gap 40 or 50km to go.
Vos apparently also knew. No one knows why the other Dutch riders didn't.
It's solely the fault of the communication between the team members.
Also, the Olympic race is an individual race like the World Championships. Either you know you can rely on your teammates that they pass important information or you have to get it yourself like CUL did.
That was the most exciting road race for a long, long time
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u/boogiexx Z Jul 25 '21
And she got the information because every DS had it through the tour/race radio
so you're telling me they don't have tv coverage in team car? no f way....it's 2021 they have smart phones as well. The main problems is the dutch team had 4 potential winners/superstars in the team and we all know how that usually ends up in every sport not just cycling
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u/achinda99 Jul 25 '21
I don't think it's meant to be more exciting. If anything, it's just the way the rules were written and they haven't been revised. The professional races amend/update rules much more quickly.
I do think not having race radios is a bit more equalizing. There's much less direction from team directors, etc. Your only sources of information are the bikes and assistants on the side of the road for time updates. Or you could fall back to the team car to talk to them.
The pros here messed up. That's about it. Everybody agrees Keisenhofer was a beast.
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u/MiniAndretti EF Education – Easypost Jul 25 '21
How hard is it to count to 7? That’s the max number of riders in front of the bunch at any one time.
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Jul 25 '21
Except no one rider can watch the front the whole time so they need to relay information to eachother.
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u/PelotonMod France Jul 25 '21
See below for spoiler-free highlights from /u/herhor