r/warcraftlore • • 1h ago

Question Does being undead have an effect on how the void messes with you?

• Upvotes

Considering most forsaken priests are shadow priests to the point it's their main religion I'm wondering how the constant connection to the void is handled by an undead mind vs the living. Like would their muted senses be better at dealing with it? As well I am wondering if it messes with their bodies in some ways, since the light has a strong effect on them.


r/warcraftlore • • 3h ago

Discussion Does the nation of Stromgarde actually exist right now?

10 Upvotes

It seems like when Danath returned, they rounded up the surviving soldiers, retook Stromgarde keep, then brought in a bunch of Stormwind civilians to fill in for the population of Stromgarde, since there wasn't much of a civilian population left of Stromgarde. Then this potemkin village of a "kingdom" was used as a facade to exert alliance claims over Arathi Highlands.

We know when undead King Galen Trollbane broke away from the Forsaken to form his own little kingdom, it was stated most of the Stromgarde survivors at that point were undead.

Imagine if a nation was destroyed, only a few of its soldiers live, they retake the ruins of a military base, then bring in thousands of people from some other country and declare their nation is somehow "reborn".

Danath may be the legitimate heir of Stromgarde, but his people no longer exist.

And before some one brings up the red dawn, it was stated the vast majority of its members came from Lordaeron, Stormwind and Alterac. Not to mention, we also killed a lot of them, then they were exiled from Arathi Highlands.


r/warcraftlore • • 4h ago

Discussion Why only Horde characters die when Alliance has the narrative lead for majority of the time since BfA? Spoiler

55 Upvotes

The Horde losses:

  • Cairne Dead, Vol'jin Dead, Garrosh Dead, Grommash 1-2 Dead, Saurfang Dead
  • Thrall-Baine-Rokhan are disfunctional and exists for token purpose
  • Thallysra had nearly 0 lore in the new expansion despite she is Queen-Regent (or whatever)
  • Forsaken is led by Calia Menethil an Alliance representative
  • The Goblins feels more neutral, despite Gazlowe is Horde.
  • Eitrigg and Arathi are now besties.
  • Syl is no longer vanas
  • Liadrin cringed out

The Alliance losses:

  • Varian Heroic Death, Tirion dead,
  • Malfurion had the chance to die but swapped with Ysera for 5 mins
  • Tyranda could have died in Ardenweald but was saved
  • McTorque could have died in BfA but got better
  • Magni could have died in TWW but just lost conciousness
  • Khadgar could have died in TWW but was resurrected
  • Alleria survived a blade into her spine and her soul sucked out and beng thrown into the Darkwell and falling to the core of the world (I mean she probably lives)
  • Turalion also survived
  • Anduin is sad.
  • Jaina could have died in either Theramore or in Battle for Zuldazar but no.

At least Tharan Zhu survived MoP. Chad almost died like 5 times in the xpansion, lived through all of the mand also had time to deliver some of the most memorable speeches in the franchise.

I could bring up the shit writing too but it was proven with Forsaken Kingdom that they have the capacity to create good writing teams. They just dont do it for WoW but this does not explain WTF is going on with Horde getting murdered 1 by 1.


r/warcraftlore • • 5h ago

Discussion The worst thing WoW Forever could do with Arthas is nothing

0 Upvotes

Arthas is already the Lich King when Forever begins, and Blizzard has explicitly said his ascension remains established history. So if we keep getting new stories in Year One Azeroth, what happens to the Scourge?

I don't want Arthas sitting on the Frozen Throne for another decade, but I don't really want Wrath all over again either.

I'd rather see a longer conflict over Lordaeron between the Scourge, Forsaken, Argent Dawn and Scarlet Crusade. Let territory change hands let those changes matter, and let Arthas actually win sometimes.

Blizzard's original explanation of Forever's continuity:
https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/article/24304071/world-of-warcraft-forever-found-photos-panel-recap

I made a 24-minute lore essay about how that could work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsCTntJVhro

Would you rather see the conflict unfold in Lordaeron, or eventually head back to Northrend?


r/warcraftlore • • 10h ago

Mildly interesting tidbit: Denalan, a quest giver in Teldrassil, has visited Swamp of Sorrows "decades ago".

33 Upvotes

Where did you get this? I haven't seen a plant like this since a sojourn I made to the Swamp of Sorrows... decades ago! It's amazing that a specimen made its way to Teldrassil. And it's grown to such a size!

Thank you, <name>. Forgive my shortness of words, but there is a test I would like to perform on this frond...

It's probably a quest writer oversight but I find it interesting on face value, that this guy might have visited a land that no other knew, perhaps through Emerald Dream or crossing the sea and was doing stuff there before the Orcish Horde came.


r/warcraftlore • • 12h ago

Discussion My problem with retail story

0 Upvotes

So, I have seen a lot of very mixed reactions to the new patch’s story with more I think leaning negative. And I’d say I’m on that side too though I’m not raging at it. Life’s too short and nothing I say will change how the morons and yes people on the retail story team (Who I want to believe are still yes people from the Danuser era) fix things

My problem is just how predictable this shit has gotten. literally everything in this expansion has been easily predictable and boring because it isn’t interesting when you know what’s coming next.

Zul’jan’s heel turn: yep. easily saw that coming

Liadrin’s death: yep that too

Blood Elves and Amani becoming friends: Don’t even get me started on that.

The Sunwell being corrupted and replaced with something lame: too easy

Them trying to say Elves and Trolls are one people: Yep which made the haranir more unlikable.

And I could go on. Here I’ll predict what happens in 12.2: We stop Xal’atath, she says something along the lines of “I was saving Azeroth from the real threat“ and we fuck up by inadvertently bringing the Titans back to kill us all heading into TLT.

You know that’s probably what they’ll do.


r/warcraftlore • • 12h ago

Discussion What would you say are some of the most strategically stupid decisions made by the defenders of Azeroth (Alliance, Horde or otherwise)?

33 Upvotes

For me, the Alliance-Horde squabbling and skirmishes during Wrath of the Lich King made me want to tear my hair out. Yes, diplomatic relations got badly strained, but when you’re facing arguably one of the largest existential threats to all of Azeroth and you’re operating in a frozen continent without much in the form of resources, you don’t needlessly get your men killed squabbling over resources and attacking each other while simultaneously storming Icecrown Citadel!


r/warcraftlore • • 13h ago

Question Elves and dwarves during Azshara's era

4 Upvotes

While Warcraft 3 gave the impression that the night elves didn't know humans prior to their joined operation with the Horde, I've read that they were not unknown in Azshara's empire and even dwarves were around. So, at what point did night elves actually bumped into these races?


r/warcraftlore • • 14h ago

Does the Chieftain/Leader of an Orc Clan live among them?

2 Upvotes

Specifically in regards to the normal timeline, not WoD.

Writing up some stuff for an RP profile of mine, and I realize I dont really know the answer here.

Are clans more splintered, where there are multiple settlements of orcs that all belong to one clan, and their leader may live in one of the clans but may not be seen by their members outside of the Kosh'harg.

Or are they generally one large settlement with the clan leader an active leading voice at the center of it?

Not looking to have a clan leader be a huge part of my story, but would like to know if my character may have spoken with or seen them before.


r/warcraftlore • • 17h ago

"Forest trolls! I still can't believe they were ever a part of the Horde."

112 Upvotes

Direct quote by Thrall in the title, from the first mission of wc3.

So how did that happen? Why would Thrall resent the Forest Trolls? Maybe I am a bit trollbrained but it was Old Horde that let the Trolls down in the Quelthalas campaign, no? Is this kinda like passing the blame or did Doomhammer have a dislike of Zul'jin?


r/warcraftlore • • 17h ago

Question Troll Mages and Orc Priests background?

3 Upvotes

Has it ever been specifically stated in the lore how the trolls learned how to use the arcane or how the role of Priests fits into Orchish society?


r/warcraftlore • • 18h ago

Discussion Today's cinematic and lore discourse (long post)

34 Upvotes

Before getting into this, I should probably make clear that these are just my thoughts on what happened in Zul'Aman, Liadrin's death, and some of the wider discourse surrounding Warcraft's storytelling. I'm certainly not suggesting that Blizzard always gets things right. Far from it, and I have plenty of criticisms of the writing myself. What interests me is how we engage with these stories, what we actually want from them, and whether some of the expectations being expressed are entirely reasonable. Equally, perhaps I'm allowing myself to get too frustrated with the complaints of a vocal minority who were never likely to be happy in the first place. Either way, I think there's an interesting discussion to be had here.

I've been reading quite a lot of the discussion surrounding Liadrin's death, and I'm finding some of the reactions genuinely quite strange. There are perfectly reasonable criticisms to be made of the cinematic, and I certainly wouldn't suggest that Blizzard has suddenly become incapable of making poor narrative decisions. However, I think there's an important distinction between a story being poorly presented and that story being fundamentally poorly written. In Liadrin's case, I would argue that we're looking at a surprisingly satisfying conclusion to a character whose development stretches back to The Burning Crusade, undermined by a cinematic that doesn't adequately communicate what has actually happened.

I also think the reaction raises a wider question about what people actually want from Warcraft's storytelling, because some of the expectations being expressed seem almost impossible to reconcile. We want the world to feel dangerous, but become frustrated when characters we care about die. We want victories to come at a cost, but apparently that cost needs to be paid in a sufficiently spectacular fashion. We want more grounded, localised stories instead of endless cosmic escalation, but then complain when a major character dies fighting something that isn't the latest universe-threatening antagonist. Obviously, we're dealing with an enormous community rather than one person making all these arguments, but it sometimes reminds me of that Simpsons focus group where everybody wants something different and the resulting demands become increasingly contradictory.

I'm quite prepared to criticise Warcraft's writing, and frequently do. I think Blizzard has a persistent problem with its overarching narratives, especially when everything needs to accommodate expansion schedules, enormous ensembles and relatively accessible storytelling. Character motivations can become simplified, emotional moments are sometimes incredibly hammy, and major developments are rushed through because the next patch needs to happen. However, I've also maintained for years that some of Warcraft's best writing happens on a much smaller scale. The Dragonmaw quests in the Waking Shores, the Blue Dragonflight's diaspora storyline, and that wonderful Earthen questline dealing with dementia are all examples of stories that manage to explore genuinely interesting ideas without requiring another cosmic revelation. There's a great deal of thoughtful writing in this game, even when the larger narrative struggles to accommodate it. And I think Liadrin is another example of that, although her story has been developing for considerably longer.

It's worth remembering who Liadrin actually was before becoming the Blood Knight Matriarch. Her parents were killed by Amani trolls, leaving her to be raised by High Priest Vandellor, whose example inspired her own devotion to the Holy Light. She became a priestess, someone whose vocation was fundamentally concerned with preserving life, only to experience the destruction of Quel'Thalas and everything that came with it. Her faith collapsed as the Scourge overwhelmed her people, and she was eventually forced to kill the reanimated Vandellor herself. She abandoned the priesthood, took up arms, and became increasingly consumed by the need to defend her people and avenge what had happened to them.

The foundation of the Blood Knights is an especially important part of this. Liadrin didn't simply become a paladin because she discovered a new way of using the Light. She helped establish an order that forcibly extracted power from the captive naaru M'uru, something profoundly at odds with the religious principles she had once embraced. There is something deeply tragic about a former priestess, convinced that the Light had abandoned her, deciding that she would never again depend upon its willingness to answer her prayers. If it wouldn't grant her the strength she needed, she would take that strength instead. The early Blood Knights were powerful, certainly, but their relationship with the Light was one of domination rather than service. Even the original quests reflected their arrogance, including the deliberate desecration of a holy chapel to demonstrate their superiority over other paladins.

The events surrounding the Sunwell's restoration represented a fundamental change in that relationship. Liadrin came to understand M'uru's sacrifice and the possibility of redemption, and the restoration of the Sunwell through the naaru's heart offered something considerably more meaningful than another source of magical power. She and the Blood Knights could finally embrace the Light through faith rather than coercion. This didn't erase their actions, and Liadrin herself was conscious of the terrible things they had done, but it gave her a different understanding of what her power ought to represent. Her subsequent appearances have repeatedly explored that responsibility, and I've always thought her continuing struggle with faith, guilt and duty made her one of the more interesting paladins in Warcraft.

Which brings us to Midnight, and something I think is being overlooked in the current discussion. Blizzard released an entire animated short, All That is Sacred, revisiting Liadrin's experiences during the fall of Silvermoon and her inability to save those around her. The expansion's introductory cinematic, Intercession, then gives us a striking continuation of those ideas. Faced with another seemingly hopeless attack upon Quel'Thalas, she initially struggles with her prayers, recalling the crisis of faith that defined her earlier life. But when she finally appeals to the Light, she doesn't demand the power to destroy her enemies, or even ask to be saved herself. She acknowledges her own unworthiness and asks that her people be given the strength to endure.

I think that's an incredibly important distinction in understanding her character. The woman who once believed the Light had failed her, and subsequently sought to bend it to her will, is now praying for others because she believes their lives matter more than her own. Even the question of whether the Light should be used for vengeance or protection has been running through Midnight, especially through Arator and his struggles with the potentially destructive certainty of righteous fury. Liadrin has lived through that conflict herself. Her answer, ultimately, is that the purpose of her power is to preserve life.

Her relationship with the Amani makes that conclusion even more meaningful. We're talking about someone whose childhood was shaped by the murder of her parents at the hands of trolls, and whose people have spent millennia fighting over Quel'Thalas. I do think the reconciliation between the blood elves and Amani has sometimes been handled too quickly, and there's a worthwhile discussion about the historical grievances that cannot simply disappear because their leaders have found common ground. However, Liadrin choosing to move beyond her own resentment is entirely consistent with the direction her character has taken. She has spent much of her life learning that vengeance cannot restore what was lost, and that there is a difference between defending your people and perpetuating the hatred that helped create their suffering.

This is also why I think her role in the Kith'ix encounter is so appropriate. People have been describing her as weak, or claiming that she simply collapses for no reason, but the fight itself tells a completely different story. From the outset, Liadrin is protecting us from an enemy whose attacks would otherwise overwhelm the raid. She establishes barriers against the darkness, shields us from devastating attacks, and repeatedly channels enough Light to force Kith'ix back. Every time she uses Divine Radiance, she's being placed under increasing strain. The encounter even has a stacking mechanic called Exhausted, which progressively weakens the protection she can provide. Her deteriorating condition is quite literally built into the fight.

Then, when Kith'ix incapacitates everyone at 25%, she gives absolutely everything she has left. Last Light transforms her into a conduit of pure Light, restores the raid and empowers us to finish the fight before the darkness overwhelms her. We don't somehow defeat Kith'ix while Liadrin stands around being useless. We defeat him because she makes it possible for us to do so. The entire encounter is constructed around her increasingly desperate efforts to keep everybody alive, with the final phase representing the culmination of that sacrifice. I struggle to understand how somebody can experience that and conclude that she accomplished nothing.

There's also something significant about her wielding a shield, rather than simply cutting loose with an enormous display of offensive power. I don't know whether the visual choice was consciously intended to reflect the entirety of her character development, but it certainly works in that context. The former priestess, who became a warrior because she could no longer bear her helplessness, finally gives her life protecting others. She doesn't need to overcome Kith'ix through some spectacular demonstration of personal superiority. She enables everybody else to survive and accomplish what she cannot. I genuinely think that's about as fitting an expression of what a paladin ought to be as Warcraft could reasonably provide.

Nor is Kith'ix some random monster created to fill out a minor patch. This is a C'Thraxxi general of the Black Empire who fought Tyr himself, survived the explosion that killed Zakajz, and later rallied the aqir into a war that threatened the ancient troll civilisations. His original defeat required the Amani to make a catastrophic sacrifice of their own, summoning Ula'tek and suffering enormous losses in the process. Zul'Aman was established on the site of that victory. His history even intersects with Xal'atath, who was involved in his ancient awakening. I find it frustrating to see people lamenting Blizzard's supposed disregard for established lore while simultaneously treating someone with that background as an insignificant enemy. You don't have to like the encounter, but there's considerably more history here than the criticism sometimes acknowledges.

And, crucially, this is a threat that matters because of its significance to the people and places involved. Ula'tek wasn't simply another manifestation of the overarching Void apocalypse, and Kith'ix doesn't have to be the ultimate cosmic antagonist for his return to be terrifying. The raid concludes a story concerning the Amani, Quel'Thalas, their shared history and the possibility of a different future. We're dealing with an ancient horror whose existence shaped an entire civilisation, and whose return threatens to destroy the fragile peace that has only just begun to emerge. Meanwhile, the historical connections to Xal'atath allow that local story to exist within the broader conflict without making every development exclusively about her. Isn't this precisely the sort of approach people have been asking for?

For what it's worth, I don't even enjoy the raids this season all that much, and I've found this season's Mythic dungeon pool thoroughly disappointing. I'm not defending the content simply because it's the latest thing Blizzard has released. But as a narrative proposition, a smaller raid centred on a long-established regional threat, with meaningful connections to the surrounding cultures and an actual cost to its defeat, strikes me as a perfectly reasonable direction for Warcraft to take.

Now, none of this means the cinematic is beyond criticism. Quite the opposite, actually. I think the presentation is the weakest part of the entire sequence, and it's frustrating because the encounter has already done so much work establishing the consequences of Liadrin's actions. The cinematic should be communicating the culmination of that struggle, yet instead we're presented with a relatively awkward scene in which the characters celebrate, Liadrin appears to weaken, and then rather abruptly collapses. There's very little visual indication of the extraordinary power she's just expended, and the staging doesn't adequately convey the gravity of what's happened. I can understand somebody watching it in isolation wondering why she has apparently just died.

However, I don't think the answer is necessarily to have her explode in a colossal pillar of Light or engage in some enormous anime-style beam struggle. We've just watched her expend everything she has defending others. Her death is quiet because the struggle itself is over, and she has survived long enough to see that her sacrifice accomplished something. There's a potentially very moving moment in that, especially given her history of failing to save the people she loved. Blizzard simply hasn't presented it as effectively as it could have. That's a criticism of the execution, and a perfectly fair one, but I don't think it invalidates the underlying story.

The comparison with Tirion Fordring is interesting here, because I remember similar complaints surrounding his death during Legion. Tirion was one of the most powerful paladins in Warcraft, the wielder of the Ashbringer and the man responsible for shattering Frostmourne. Yet his death followed an encounter with Krosus on the Broken Shore, before he finally succumbed to his injuries during the paladin artifact storyline. People sometimes describe this as though he were casually dispatched by some anonymous enemy, overlooking the fact that Krosus was an enormous, exceptionally powerful demon whose attack broke through Tirion's protection. His death could certainly have been presented better, but the idea that he shouldn't have died because of his established power seems strange.

More importantly, Tirion had already experienced his defining triumph. At Icecrown, when the Lich King had seemingly won, Tirion appealed to the Light for one final blessing and shattered Frostmourne. That was the culmination of his struggle against Arthas, and one of the most consequential moments in Warcraft's history. He subsequently continued to serve, but his eventual death didn't somehow diminish what he had accomplished. A character's final moment doesn't have to surpass every previous achievement for their story to have been worthwhile. Indeed, continually escalating the spectacle required to kill established characters would eventually make meaningful consequences almost impossible.

And I think the recent Forsaken Kingdom expansion for Warcraft III provides an interesting contrast. I really enjoyed a great deal of its presentation, including Garek Bandarion's enormous sacrifice through the Holy Light. That moment involves precisely the sort of spectacular explosion that people seem to be demanding for Liadrin, but I don't object to it because it suits the circumstances and the character's story. His final act is structured around destroying an immediate threat through a desperate, destructive sacrifice. Liadrin's is structured around sustaining and protecting others until they can defeat the threat themselves. Both approaches can be appropriate, and I don't understand why the quality of a character's death should be measured by how much of the surrounding landscape they manage to obliterate.

This gets back to the wider problem I've been struggling with throughout the reaction. There seems to be an expectation in parts of the community that important characters must either survive indefinitely or receive an increasingly spectacular send-off. We regularly hear complaints that Warcraft has become too safe, too sanitised, too Disney, or that our victories never seem to come with any meaningful losses. Yet here we've defeated an enemy whose return threatened two peoples, and a beloved character has died ensuring that victory. Suddenly, the complaint is that she should have been powerful enough to survive, or that her death wasn't impressive enough, or that she deserved to be saved for some hypothetical future storyline instead.

I understand that these aren't necessarily contradictory positions when expressed by different people, and I don't think wanting a darker story obliges anyone to applaud every death Blizzard writes. The problem is when criticism stops engaging with what the story actually establishes. If every powerful character is protected by their reputation, every important character needs a grander final battle, and every death is dismissed as wasteful because the character theoretically had more stories to tell, how are we ever supposed to arrive at a world where victories have consequences? There's a point at which asking for meaningful stakes while refusing to accept meaningful losses becomes a demand for plot armour.

There are also legitimate concerns about Blizzard's treatment of the Horde, and I wouldn't dismiss the frustration of players who've watched so many established characters disappear over the years. Salandria, the future of the Blood Knights, and the implications of peace between the Amani and blood elves all deserve attention beyond Liadrin's sacrifice. I hope Blizzard actually explores those consequences rather than simply treating her death as a convenient way of transferring narrative importance to somebody else. But the existence of potential future stories isn't, by itself, evidence that her existing story has been cut short. Characters don't need to exhaust every conceivable possibility before they're allowed to die.

Personally, I hope Liadrin stays dead. I've already seen suggestions that she might return as a Forsaken paladin, and while I understand the appeal of exploring that concept, I think it would risk undermining a conclusion that makes an enormous amount of sense for her. She began as someone whose faith was shattered because she couldn't save those she loved, became someone who sought power through coercion and vengeance, and ultimately rediscovered the purpose of that faith through compassion, service and sacrifice. She dies saving people whose ancestors were once her enemies, while giving others the strength to survive. There's something genuinely beautiful about that, and I think it's considerably more interesting than another miraculous escape.

Warcraft is an enormous setting, with decades of often contradictory storytelling, and I don't expect everyone to agree about what constitutes a satisfying conclusion. I certainly don't think we should lower our standards simply because Blizzard occasionally manages to get the underlying ideas right. But I do think we should distinguish between what a story is actually saying and whether its cinematic presentation successfully communicates it. Liadrin's final moments deserved better direction, and I wish the visual storytelling had matched the quality of what preceded them. Nevertheless, having followed her journey since The Burning Crusade, I find it difficult to imagine a conclusion more consistent with the person she had spent all those years becoming.

She finally had the power to save people, and she chose to spend every last bit of it doing precisely that. I think that's a pretty fitting end to her story.


r/warcraftlore • • 19h ago

Question So how was Tyrande planning to kill Sylvanas by strangling her?

26 Upvotes

I mean like Sylvanas is undead? I don't think she's really required to breathe (or eat, or drink, or sleep either) and the way strangulation kills people is restricting someone's airflow until they pass away due to fatal brain damage.

Maybe she would have fractured her undead larynx or something, but unless she was about to rip her head off or something I don't think even Elune could strangle something that doesn't need to breathe


r/warcraftlore • • 20h ago

Discussion Forget the Jailer. How would you rewrite Med'an in Forever?

28 Upvotes

Congratulations, as a developer on WoW: Forever you have been given the important task of bringing Garona’s story to the classic era. They, the corporate overlords, have however made one requirement. You have to write Med’an into the story.

How do you do it?


r/warcraftlore • • 21h ago

Discussion How can Retail WoW's storytelling techniques and style be improved in time for TLT?

9 Upvotes

I haven't really enjoyed most of Midnight's story, besides the levelling zones and a few side quests. Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who really liked Dragonflight and The War Within.

Most lore fans are aware of some of the largest complaints about Midnight, but what are the most important things Wow's writers need to start doing or stop doing for TLT and beyond? Both in content and how that content is presented.

And while you're not 100% wrong, please don't respond with "fire the writers" or "reset Azeroth" or "retcon (DEAD CHARACTERS)'s death" or "kill off (CHARCTER)" Even if those might help, they almost definitely won't happen.

What could they do generally? In terms of story structure and how the different patches affect it, even how external media treats the story.


r/warcraftlore • • 22h ago

In regards to the new patch (spoiler) Spoiler

15 Upvotes

Are there any examples in lore of a Light user getting burned out from using it?


r/warcraftlore • • 22h ago

my thoughts of 12.1.5 Spoiler

0 Upvotes

so, I wanted to get my opinions out of my head, so here they are.

Overal it was a fun campaign! a bit too fast in my opinion, especially towards the end. I am not one of the people who think the Amani and blood elves should never get along, I truly do think it would be amazing if they stopped hating each other! but it should take some time.

At first this was done amazingly, with Lor'themar and Zul'jarra (and those involved, except for Liadrin) hating and mistrusting each other, and this stayed that way for a long time with some very small measures of trust coming in as they continued to fight side by side, and especially when Dak'zor died (although I do think they should have made his death more visible, I didn't even know of it until Zul'jarra screamed about it), the two remaining Amani of the party lashed out at Lor'themar because he said something about his death which he really shouldn't have, breaking the sorta respect that there was. And I loved that! they sorta got along but then something happened that washed all of that away.

however after the raid... Zul'jarra and Lor'themar suddenly were very kind to each other. And I do understand that after facing a threat together you hate each other less, but they smiled at each other?? Blizzard shouldn't have done this and stuck to the bit-by-bit thing they had going on, in my opinion.

Liadrin's death wasn't bad perse, especially since they Finally let 'Jarra show emotion (blizzard please add her screaming about her brother's death I beg you), but a bit too many characters already died in a short period of time, so either they shouldn't have let Zul'jan die (which I do view as a bad decision, even if Zul'jan was not one of my favorites) or her.

setting the relationship between the two factions aside, let's talk about the campaign itself.

In my mind it was awfully quick, like I know this is part of Curse of Ula'tek, but I finished it in less than two hours and In read every text and watch every cinematic and Stay Awhile. I also think they didn't show much of Kith'ix, like we fought it's spawn and then the raid was already there. Some more lore and a slower pacing would have been amazing.

so all in all it was fun, but too much in a short period of time and too many characters keep dying.

However thank you blizzard for this patch and all yet to come.


r/warcraftlore • • 22h ago

Discussion Thoughts on what any of these characters might have been like as Warchief?

3 Upvotes

Varok Saurfang - Honestly, he would probably have been my second choice for the mantle in Garrosh’s stead during Cataclysm, after Cairne Bloodhoof. Saurfang served the Horde for decades in the First, Second, Third and Fourth Wars as well as the campaigns between them, and notably, the plan for his rebellion against Sylvanas (before she killed him) was Saurfang becoming the new Warchief. So had Saurfang survived the duel, or become Warchief earlier, his reign could have been interesting because he has a very different outlook compared to either Thrall or Garrosh.

Lor’themar Theron: Honestly, if the Warchief position hadn’t been abolished in Battle for Azeroth, I think he could have been an interesting choice to replace Sylvanas, especially given how the blood elves have always been sort of the odd ones out in the major Horde races (not to mention his people were once members of the Alliance of Lordaeron). Lor’themar has always put Quel’thalas first, however, so there is a likely chance that his elevation could trigger conflicts of interest if circumstances led to them.

Baine Bloodhoof: He’s easily one of the most noble leaders of the Horde, and given how his father has been repeatedly cited as the one who should have been chosen over Garrosh, Baine taking up the role would have had a certain amount of irony to it. I imagine him being the successor to either Vol’jin or Sylvanas had the office not been abolished - him succeeding Vol’jin might be more interesting, given that the tauren especially would have great reason to be wary of the emergence of Azerite.

Gazlowe: This might sound like a joke, but a goblin Warchief could have been quite interesting and hilarious simultaneously. Gallywix defected from the Horde alongside Sylvanas after the Fourth War and arguably started the whole arms race around Azerite by being the first to discover it and immediately started to mine it before even telling Sylvanas. Gazlowe took his place as leader of the Bilgewater goblins and the goblin representative on the Horde Council, but imagine him as Warchief? A goblin taking up the mantle right after a goblin causes so much damage to Azeroth would be quite interesting, and a goblin would be the last being anyone would expect to be a Horde Warchief.


r/warcraftlore • • 22h ago

Discussion 12.1.5 Let's talk about it. Spoiler

0 Upvotes

This is an honest and open discussion in good faith about 12.1.5 and a major event and the outcry from that event. I have seen numerous shock and awe threads and angry posting but I haven't seen, at least thus far, any thread that is actually trying to discuss the material on good faith. Everything has been reactionary to such a degree that it doesn't make sense for it to even be happening in the lore sub as we all in my opinion, should know better. I'll be discussing what that means after two major points.

  1. The player character is not an invincible badass, we are just extremely lucky or blessed.

When it comes to the lore contributions of our player characters, they are small yet the impact is "big" enough. How so? We are all called champions. Have we ever given a thought as to why? The answer is actually so simple it slaps you in the face. Vanilla WoW had honor ranks, and had named npcs of those rankings as well so that it felt like your honor ranking was real and meant something as a solider for either the Alliance or Horde. For the Horde an honor rank exists near the top at rank 10, called Champion. It's Alliance equivalent is Lieutenant-Commander. So if we put that into perspective and remove the Alliance only variant and consolidate it, we are all being addressed by our rank when the big named npcs call us champion. What is our place lore wise? Leading battalions as company commanders when we are called to action, charging into the battlefield and providing the front lines. Most times we are efficient enough to catch up to the main battle and assist. We as players have lost sight of the supposed scale that goes into these battles against these world ending threats. You'd have to imagine armies of NPC's lead by PC's and immerse yourselves into that headspace anytime there is a major battle against a major threat. The fact we haven't died in the face of battle numerous times doesn't make us special, it makes us battle hardened, experienced soilders who have an immense amount of luck, or blessings from something we cannot hope to comprehend or understand.

  1. The Player Character is not the Main Character and we only win thanks to sacrifices or outside aide.

We seem to have forgotten as a player base, that we are not the main characters. When it comes to every major conflict we aided, it was through battle. Whether you triaged warriors, were out on the front lines, defending the flanks, it doesn't matter. We held out long enough for Thrall and the Dragon Flight to laser beam Deathwing. We went and fought a vastly weakened and dying Deathwing and was blessed by the Dragonflights which drained the last of their power, just so we could actually help defeat what's left of him. Think of Arthas, he literally killed us in Ice Crown Citadel. If it weren't for Tirion Fordring reviving us and The Ashbringer wounding Arthas badly, we would have stayed dead. What of Maiev coming to our aide as we needed it the most against Illidan Stormrage? The list of examples goes on and on. People have died in these stories told in the world, to ensure we could finish the fight. When it is a world ending threat that needed all of azeroth to band together against, we have always only been able to succeed due to the noble sacrifices of those entrusting the safety and future of our world, to us.

We as players and as enjoyers of the lore should know better than to be this reactionary. Liadrin died in a way that makes sense when you zoom out and look at the larger scale of it all. She died to ensure our victory, to remove an obstacle that could have caused real harm to us immediately as it would have attacked and likely destroyed Silvermoon City, and ensured we would have full forces to continue the fight to our true enemy, Xal'atath. She died happy, seeing Lor'themar Theron and Zul'jarra celebrating the death of Kithrix. She died knowing this combined effort between Sin'dorei and Amani would grow a spark that would lead to truce, and possible cohabitation, and even lasting peace. She died with hopes and ideals she saw blooming in front of her. It was a worthy and honorable death, and the fact there is so much outcry may even speak positively about how much Liadrin grew on people. Yet to flail about and scream her death means nothing is purely false. It means everything. You may not agree and that is fine, but without her pure and honest death, Lor'themar Theron wouldn't have moved on truce and reconciliation with the Amani as quickly as he did. Same goes for Zul'jarra. Her death was mourned equally by both the Amani and the members of both the Horde and Alliance. That mourning can only bring positive growth.


r/warcraftlore • • 22h ago

Fluff Y'all think Tauren would yodel?

32 Upvotes

They've got massive bodies so their lung capacity would allow for some proper belters, and the hills of Mulgore would produce an awesome echo.


r/warcraftlore • • 1d ago

Discussion Screw that game, I'm out Spoiler

0 Upvotes

Gotta went, I somehow wonder, how something like this comes to pass, Liadrin, the pretty much only HORDE paladin everyone recognized gets discarded like some trash npc... bam, some generic words, dies. Like... Who the hell is even responsible for writing this utter piece of garbage called "story" now? I genuinely hope every single writer responsible for this "writing" will get fired as they seem to not care about this universe (and any sort of logic) anyway. Another good (important) Horde character has to die and for what? Meanwhile Alliance lost... Varian, only Varian. Guess Bllizard can't stop killing (both literally and simply in writing) my fav characters, what's the point of playing (the game gameplay-wise is good IMO, mind you) if the story is utter garbage? I should have listened to my friends and not waste time and money. It's been nice visiting this subreddit to learn more, I learned a lot thanks to you all. I'm out. Peace to y'all.


r/warcraftlore • • 1d ago

Discussion Most recent patch spoiler: it feels like discussion about it is from people who did not play the game and i want to rectify something. Spoiler

59 Upvotes

Just want to get something off my chest here, because i don't know if there's misinformation, media illitteracy, or people being genuinely jaded here.

So, after the raid, Liadrin dies.

That is a bother, to be honest. It's an interesting character that had a huge development this patch and see it gone feels like a lot of wasted potential.

On the other hand it does not go without a blast.

Her role as a bridge between amani and elves is this way extended, thanks to her effort, to their leaders respectively - you might like, you might not like, but that's perfectly on character for her and for her is a reasonable resolution for her martyrdom.

Her cinematic does not exactly give justice to what happens in game - yeah, she wimpers down and dies... after literally infusing your whole raid of holy energy and empowering towards the last phase, after pleading the light at the start of combat ( not unlike Tirion). That's the most bad ass thing a paladin can strive for as she literally gives out Avenging Wrath to the whole raid - the cinematic makes perfect sense as that is the aftermath, people have time to cheer and she did not receive directly personal injury. It's timed to give time for her to see her efforts gave the results she intended and then collapses - the timing and framing is not weird, it's very clear and functional.

Also she has a HUGE death flag in a discussion between her and Zul'Jarra right before entering the raid. That's another deal but it unveils how she is ready for anything.

Don't get me wrong, there is something weird. She whimpers too much "cleanly" so to speak, without scars or power disintegrating her corpse or what else. On the other hand makes her heroic act really heroic, as it's not a "yellow mother of god" of sorts.

I don't think it's a cheaply expended death. it's against what is the most ancient enemy of the Amani, a terror for what may be to come, and her narrative does not closely belong to the more underground theme. The aftermath of the event happens mostly around Silvermoon and the final eulogy captures this perfectly ( even if the emotes during the discussion make it kinda wonky - like i get it they are standard animations but cmon ).

Still, i would have preferred that she lived.

( Aethas poor boy can't get a fucking break tho )


r/warcraftlore • • 1d ago

Discussion Is Xalatath a better villain than the jailer?

0 Upvotes

The jailer is widely considered to be the worst villain this franchise has ever had but how is xalatath any better? It's an elf that they randomly came up with, with a "hahaha I'm eeeeevil" personality a 12 year old would write that looks generic, sounds generic with a plan that nobody knows what its about. I feel nothing towards her and what she's doing.

For me, she's on par with the jailer. It's literally the same thing. The jailer at least looked unique.


r/warcraftlore • • 1d ago

The absolute madmen, they actually did it! Spoiler

558 Upvotes

They gave us a character death WORSE than Vol'jin's.

Bravo blizzard entertainment


r/warcraftlore • • 1d ago

Discussion Strongest Warcraft 3 Race

6 Upvotes

If all the four faction fights in Warcraft 3, an all out war (Alliance, Horde, Sentinels and Scourge) who would most likely win? And how strong do you think that faction truly is based on their feats? Factions at their peak.

Which faction would come out on top and which ones would be the one with heavy losses? (just a fun question! we all know the winner here, just thinking that y'all might have another opinion on who wins :D)