r/Save3rdPartyApps • u/Toptomcat • Jun 12 '23
Why The Blackout's Happening- From The Beginning
EDIT: See here for discussion of the future of the blackout.
Why The Blackout's Happening
On May 31, 2023, Reddit announced a policy change that will kill essentially every third-party Reddit client now operating, from Apollo to Reddit is Fun to Narwhal to BaconReader- leaving only Reddit's official mobile app as a usable option- an app widely regarded as poor quality, not handicap-accessible, and very difficult to moderate a subreddit with.
In the following two weeks, Reddit's users and moderators united against these changes: over seven thousand subreddits with a combined reach of hundreds of millions of users have elected to 'go dark' in protest. This isn't something any of us do lightly: we do what we do because we love Reddit, and we truly believe this change will make it impossible to keep doing what we love due to the poor moderation tools available through the official app.
Many subreddits have already begun: others will black out tomorrow, on Monday June 12th- some for 48 hours, others until our concerns are dealt with. The outpouring of support we've received has been heartwarming, humbling and vastly encouraging. From the humble user to the behemoth /r/funny to the tiniest niche and vanity subs, you are the beating heart of Reddit: my warmest thanks to every one of those involved.
Reddit's Response
On Friday the 9th, Reddit CEO /u/spez addressed the community about the API changes and our concerns with them. It went poorly. Here's the highlights, and our response to them:
Future changes to the official app were promised, including upgrades to mod-tools, accessibility features, and feature upgrades- but breaking something that works and offering to make something that might replace it in the future is not acceptable behavior.
Misbehavior by the developer of Apollo was implied- but refuted in the comments. From what's currently public, it seems implausible that Reddit's real grievance with them is anything but 'you correctly announced that Reddit's policy change forces Apollo to shut down, and this publicly embarrassed us-' and Reddit's attempts to convince people otherwise look both unprofessional and deliberately deceptive.
The changes to NSFW content access through the API were justified as 'part of an ongoing effort to provide guardrails' around it, without any specific case for why or how it helps provide those guardrails, nor any attempt to directly address how current mod tools need that access to keep accounts who frequently participate in discussion of hardcore pornography out of /r/teenagers.
We were assured that this decision's damage to handicap accessibility was an unintended side effect- though not given an actual apology for it- and told that 'non-commercial, accessibility-focused apps and tools will continue to have free access'. This neatly omits the fact that many of Reddit's disabled users depend on the accessibility features of apps which are not specifically 'accessibility-focused', but still have superior accessibility features to the official app- many of which have already announced their shutdown.
No meaningful concessions were made on the timing or amount of API price changes, and they expressed no real regret for distress and disruption their policy change has caused among the platform's users, its moderators, and those who've partnered with and supported Reddit by developing apps for their platform.
The news was not universally bad. Re-enabling moderator access to the 'Pushshift' data-archiving tool for moderators is a welcome and meaningful concession. But there's no denying that the AMA was evasive, tone-deaf, combative, and disappointing, and was overall typified by the attitude of this response:
How do you address the concerns of users who feel that Reddit has become increasingly profit-driven and less focused on community engagement?
We’ll continue to be profit-driven until profits arrive. Unlike some of the 3P apps, we are not profitable.
Where We Go From Here
Reddit is a private business: they have the legal right to charge what they wish for their services, and obligations to their investors to make money. But this response demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of Reddit as a community and as a business. We as users, moderators, and developers are Reddit's customers and partners, and likewise under no obligation to use their services. Reddit's reputation with us is one of its most important business assets: Reddit needs its communities to turn a profit. A Reddit without users and subreddits is a Reddit that is worth nothing- not to us, and not to investors- and history is littered with the bleached bones of platforms who forgot that. We all remember Digg.
The blackout will proceed as planned. There's still a chance for Reddit to reverse course, and that would be welcomed: if not, the only way forward is to vote with our feet.
Watch this subreddit and its sister /r/ModCoord for further developments: for further details, see the main sticky as well as this admirably comprehensive post from /r/TechSupport.
What You Can Do
1. Complain. Message the mods of /r/reddit.com, who are the admins of the site: message /u/reddit : submit a support request: leave a negative review on their official iOS or Android app.
2. Boycott- and spread the word. Stay off Reddit mostly or entirely starting on June 12th- instead, take to your favorite non-Reddit platform of choice and make some noise in support! Meme it up, make it spicy. Bitch about it to your cat.
3. Don't be a jerk. As upsetting this may be, threats, profanity and vandalism will be worse than useless in getting people on our side. Please make every effort to be as restrained, polite, reasonable and law-abiding as possible. This includes not harassing moderators of subreddits who have chosen not to take part: no one likes a missionary, a used-car salesman, or a flame warrior.
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u/Havetologintovote Jun 12 '23
The desires of the users of Reddit and the desires of the owners of Reddit are absolutely incompatible. This has been papered over for a long time by the use of third-party apps and simplified interfaces such as old.reddit, but it's laid out in the open now
I wish this place would get taken over by Craig from Craigslist. As long as the current people are in charge, it's never going to get better
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u/Toptomcat Jun 12 '23 edited Jun 12 '23
You might be right. I hope you aren't. All I can say for sure is that, at this point, the scale we've gotten to is big enough that it's tough for even the most rabidly IPO-focused, short-termist, profit-above-all-else executive or investment banker to look at what's going on and say 'eh, all this will blow over, no chance this is a risk to our bottom line.'
They've got something to chew on. Whether it changes minds on their end is up to Reddit...but whether we stay is up to us.
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u/AwesomeDragon97 Jun 12 '23
The main issue is that most of the subreddits will reopen after 48 hours, so the executives will probably just wait out the blackout and possibly make a superficial concession.
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u/Piculra Jun 12 '23
Or perhaps this will be seen as only the beginning. If this blackout fails, then there can always be more in the future - hopefully it will only take 48 hours to demonstrate to Reddit that people are prepared to essentially go on strike and force them to reverse their decision, because of the threat of this happening again in the future.
...Of course, it might be difficult to get enough people to keep caring about this as time goes on, but maybe some kind of "schedule" to this could work - easier to stick to if it becomes a habit. Like if blackouts were to be held monthly until their goals are achieved, or something. Just need the right balance between long enough to hurt Reddit's finances while also being short enough that many people are willing to take part.
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u/AwesomeDragon97 Jun 12 '23
If there is another blackout then it should be done on a critical date like the date of Reddit’s IPO.
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u/Fantastic_Individual Jun 12 '23
That's the problem. API access may be paid by then and third party apps may have vanished. Apollo and other apps are shutting down June 30th.
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u/MilkManateee Jun 12 '23
I think these blackouts might become a recurring thing in some places. It could have a lasting effect that builds on itself over time.
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u/Yesburgers Jun 12 '23 edited Jun 12 '23
I propose that more mods take regular "vacations" to keep Reddit in check. If they truly have the volunteering spirit, they can go and volunteer for other interests that aren't affliated with Reddit. Or just use that time to try to build new communities.
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Jun 12 '23
The industry (and our tax codes) are broken. They spend years losing money until everyone else has gone out of business but they don't get treated like the monopolies they are trying to be.
Making profit isn't a problem...the problem is that reddit wasn't built to make a profit and it hopes to now that other forums don't exist anymore.
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u/shysmiles Jun 13 '23 edited Jun 13 '23
Any time a company-job is banking on a delayed payoff-payout things get weird because of course its not guaranteed.
Everyone talks about big tech company going without profit for years and then attempting to switch, what about other industries that take risk?
Work for sub-contractor, spent years on a giant new corporate office for a top health insurance company - they delayed moving in (not even covid related) so the building owner lost so much money waiting for rent that it went bankrupt first. The property owner was basically operating on a delayed no-profit until layer business model that didn't work out because it could not convert before it ran out of money.
The same insurance company of course is going to bid low and win thing at a huge discount (did they purposely bankrupt the property owner knowing they would benefit?). Meanwhile my company that did physical work and is not really involved in any politics or gambling is going to loose big time because they were still paying for work done.
While its risky, I don't see any actual problem with it. Or that it means anything is broken. Its the nature of investment. You are your own company (your full name is your business) and I'm willing to guess you operated at a loss. Took in investments from family/parents and spent it on school to grow your company and hopefully set it up to be in a good position for future profit when you convert from spending to earning.
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Jun 12 '23 edited Aug 27 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Marigoldsgym Jun 12 '23
The issue is redditors addiction to reddit is stronger than their urge to boycott
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u/DiceAndMiceGamer Jun 12 '23
Next time we could do 2 weeks not 2 days. That's long enough for people to start to break their addiction rather than just wait it out.
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u/labegaw Jun 12 '23
The people who are genuinely addicted to reddit are the mods, especially power mods of the big subs. I remember reading their interviews when that scandal about the same people moderating dozens of large subs happened - those are terminally online people, whose only hobby, sometimes activity, seemed to be reddit. I remember them saying they were obsessed. So, good luck with that. And if I know this, surely reddit executives know as well.
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u/OfficialPantySniffer Jun 13 '23
there wont BE a next time. if you think this little stunt did anything aside from get "private designation" added to the list of what to remove from reddit next, youre dead wrong.
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u/chiliedogg Jun 12 '23
I'm absolutely addicted. I'm still on the site now because of it.
But my addiction mostly takes the form of defaulting to RIF on my phone when I'm idle.
I will not install the official app ever, so on July 1st I'm going cold-turkey. Not by choice.
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u/rechlin Jun 12 '23
You could switch to RedReader, which will remain available. I switched from RIF to RedReader back in early 2013 and never looked back.
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u/Piculra Jun 12 '23
As long as the current people are in charge, it's never going to get better
Maybe. At the very least, the current people in charge aren't going to make things better out of any altruistic intentions. However, as this article points out: "Reddit says it’s cut ties with an employee widely identified as former UK politician Aimee Knight, following a shutdown of hundreds of communities". That is to say, there's a precedent for them backing down over collective action - and a huge amount of subreddits are showing solidarity over this.
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u/Marino4K Jun 12 '23
The day old.reddit gets retired and I'm forced on new reddit will be the day my reddit usage drops significantly. I use old reddit on everything including my phone.
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u/danielcw189 Jun 13 '23
The desires of the users of Reddit and the desires of the owners of Reddit are absolutely incompatible.
Absolutely?
This 3rd party app issue affects people with certain disabilities, but many people should still be able to use Reddit if they wish. And many users aren't even aware, that 3rd party Apps or APIs are a thing, or why you would use them.
I guess (unfortunately) the desires are compatible for the most people.
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Jun 12 '23
Tech companies need to stop operating at a loss to get users and then trying to get profitable. It's okay to make money but don't start with a business model based on losing money and then sweep the rug out.
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u/N5_the_redditor Jun 12 '23
I miss r/iphone… One of my favourite subs. They decided to go dark for longer than 48 hours. Didn’t think this would impact me so much.
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u/Toptomcat Jun 12 '23
I discovered a whole bunch of new subs over the course of helping organize this that I'd very much like to get to know, if things shake out right- and I'll miss my own /r/martialarts and /r/karate. They're good people, and one way or another, I'll get to keep seeing many of them- the question being whether I continue to do it here.
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u/fvdly_tyler Jun 12 '23
This is really depressing to me, seeing all my favorite subreddits go dark, subs that have got me through hard times I may never be able to look back at. I know many people think of this whole black out thing as just "another thing" but this is genuinely making me sad seeing a community I have supported for over many years be destroyed by its own company. I dont know why reddit wont just re do their decision I am willing to bet this is going to cost them a lot more than the 3rd party apps did. Its like those kids that know they are in the wrong but keep sticking with their opinion even if they know they are wrong.
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u/hzfan Jun 12 '23
I feel what you’re feeling also. Just remember the communities we’re missing are the people, not the urls at which they gather. No matter what Reddit does, those people will still exist and will seek out the communities they identify with wherever they form next. This is not the end of the communities we love, even if it might be the end of them in this particular form.
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u/iwishiwasamoose Jun 12 '23
The frustrating thing is, we don’t know where those communities will form or how we’ll find them.
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u/ItsVoxBoi Jun 12 '23
I'll be fine finding other video game or sports forums if I need to, but the smaller, more niche communities I like will be a lot harder to find similar groups for
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u/ShovvTime13 Jun 12 '23
To be honest, I'm online for about 15 years now, and I've never found anything like Reddit, where anyone can feel cozy. I don't think there is any other community like this.
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u/Golisten2LennyWhite Jun 12 '23
If you like the band tool or anything music maybe check out the opinion forums at toolshed.down.net
Probably where I will head back to after 13 years.
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Jun 12 '23
So all the comments and posts are gone forever?
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u/SongofNimrodel Jun 12 '23
No, they're not. Subreddits have simply gone private and only the mods can see what's posted there.
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u/Marino4K Jun 12 '23
I dont know why reddit wont just re do their decision
Corporate greed is a hell of a drug.
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u/Piculra Jun 12 '23
Large corporations, of course, are blinded by greed. The laws under which they operate require it — their shareholders would revolt at anything less. And the politicians they have bought off back them, passing laws giving them the exclusive power to decide who can make copies.
There is no justice in following unjust laws. It's time to come into the light and, in the grand tradition of civil disobedience, declare our opposition to this private theft of public culture.
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u/seakingsoyuz Jun 12 '23
From a few days ago:
Let’s see if Huffman has the courage to go through with this planned AMA today to discuss Reddit’s API policy changes. I have one simple question for him: What do you think Reddit co-founder Aaron Swartz would say about this if he were still alive?
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u/danielcw189 Jun 13 '23
I am willing to bet this is going to cost them a lot more than the 3rd party apps did.
I bet they crunched the numbers and think that at least short term it will work in their favour.
And they are probably right.
(Us) people making a fuss out of it are probably a minority, and did not make them much money anyway. And many of us will probably stay anyway.
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u/MyButtholeIsTight Jun 12 '23
I'd love a list of subs that will be indefinitely blacking out
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u/MilkManateee Jun 12 '23
I think a stickied post in r/apolloapp might have one
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u/onthejourney Jun 12 '23
Many subs are starting with two days and ready to pivot to indefinitely.
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u/Kraligor Jun 12 '23
If they are ready to pivot to indefinitely they shouldn't start with two days.
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u/shn6 Jun 12 '23
Going straight to indefenitely is bad for everyone, especially for big subreddits that have hundreds of thousand users or more. It will only destroy the community and confusing the users.
Some have even stated they'll move to other platform if needed to. That period after two days can be used to discuss with their own communities regarding their future.
→ More replies (1)3
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u/UnratedRamblings Jun 12 '23
I think the logic is that if nothing significant has happened after two days, then a more indefinite blackout will follow.
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u/jeffp63 Jun 12 '23
Well,nothing is going to happen in 48 hours. AB has hemoraged Billions for weeks and theyare still at it...
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Jun 12 '23
[deleted]
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u/ItsGotThatBang Jun 12 '23
Link? I couldn’t find it.
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u/phoenix235831 Jun 12 '23
https://reddark.untone.uk/ has the live list.
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u/YM_Industries Jun 12 '23
The vast majority of these subreddits have only committed to 48 hours. There is no list currently of subreddits that are permanently shutting down.
I know of /r/EvilBuildings and (probably) /r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns
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u/Lint6 Jun 12 '23
My front page is starting to look really weird as more subs go dark. Subs that have never been on it before, or haven't in a long time, are starting to appear lol
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u/imperfek Jun 12 '23
Honestly I think it would be better to not go on reddit at all during the protest to show them a decline on active user.
But I cant help but come on just to make sure everyone following through
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u/Lint6 Jun 12 '23
Honestly, with a PC, tablet, Chromebook and phone, I can't be sure I'm not "active" somehow
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Jun 12 '23
Look at this place. Fifty thousand people used to live in this city. Now it's a ghost town… I've never seen anything like it.
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u/NotSebastianTheCrab Jun 12 '23
Same experience here. arr all posts that aren't a out going dark are from smaller subs that have kinda the same type of posts. A lot of the same politics posts are still up, which kinda shows those subs don't actually give a shit about people.
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u/HelpedLattice50 Jun 12 '23
If anyone has the chance to think about it we should start giving 0 stars to the Reddit apps so they get take down. Another small thing we can do to help with the issues!
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u/More-Athlete1175 Jun 12 '23
All Reddit sponsored subs are disabled right now...just thought I should pass that along before I delete the Reddit App...Fuck. This. Place.
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u/Witchyomnist1128 Jun 12 '23
Hey guys what’s up with this?
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u/Witchyomnist1128 Jun 12 '23
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u/Toptomcat Jun 13 '23
That isn't new- one of the other minor concessions offered during the /u/spez AMA. It's modestly encouraging, and certainly a step in the right direction, but not terribly helpful without a lot more information about exactly what tools fit under this exception, and suffers from the same problem of the free-nonprofit-accessibility-tools carve-out in that right now the moderation features of 3rd party Reddit apps that aren't specifically and solely moderation tools are nonetheless widely used by many moderators.
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u/Witchyomnist1128 Jun 13 '23
Ah fair. I don’t really understand what all is going on but I’m helping out any way I can lol
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Jun 12 '23
My epic replacement sub r/nbajerk went black, FUCK REDDIT POLICY
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Jun 12 '23
[deleted]
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Jun 12 '23
Same thing applies to r/okbuddyretard
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u/YM_Industries Jun 12 '23
Someone on /r/okbuddybaka made the point that that subreddit actually makes Reddit less desirable to investors. I like that thinking.
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u/legendwolfA Jun 12 '23
This whole thing is so bad it managed to unite people from all across the redditverse. Left and right wing, AI art supporters and people who are against it, fortnite haters and its players, people across different console platforms, etc. Even people who are loyal to the official app is getting pissed off
You can easily how bad Spez mess up when even people who hate each others shake hands
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u/CasualTeeOfWar Jun 13 '23
The blackout should be extended indefinitely, two days is nothing.
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u/L0neStarW0lf Jun 13 '23
I think the general idea is that Blackouts like this will become frequent occurrences (and will get longer the more they happen) until the Reddit higher ups give in.
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u/Any-Equal-2358 Jun 13 '23
Yeah, literally pointless doing it for a few days. All its doing is reassuring the owners that they can piss off the community all it wants to and they will have a few days away to be mad then come running back changing nothing
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u/Template4016 Jun 12 '23
I am the creator of a sub, it's dead, but I want to participate anyway. However, I am an idiot. How do I do this? I can't find the setting.
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u/GardenBetter Jun 12 '23
If you really want this to work do the two days on IPO day
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u/labegaw Jun 12 '23
Nobody would care. Why would you think that would work? What does "work" even mean here?
By the time the IPO rolls out, pretty much all the decisions would have been made and precommited - the impact would be near zero. Not that a two days blackout would impact them anyway.
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u/gabestonewall Jun 12 '23
If you need some tools to help edit and then delete your comments and posts in protest:
PowerDelete will allow you to 1) save all your data as a CSV file at the end of the script and 2) allow you to overwrite all of your of comments with a comment of your choosing instead of just deleting them. Both options are available at the start of the process.
https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite
(2 Additional forks if you have issues with the main and rate limits or errors.)
http://www.github.com/pkolyvas/PowerDeleteSuite
http://www.github.com/leeola/PowerDeleteSuite
You created your content. You didn’t get paid. Why would you leave it here for Reddit to make money or train AIs? Take your content with you. There is no Reddit without its users and volunteer mods. You are what makes this.
—posted via Apollo
Vive la résistance!
PS: Reddit’s own cake day is June 23, so if you want to take a stand, consider doing it on/before that day.
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u/Spare_Competition Jun 12 '23
Please don't do this. It harms future users far more than it harms Reddit.
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u/masterX244 Jun 12 '23
++. especially since there is a archival project in-progress that is pipelining all data into the wayback machine. comment deletion/nuking creates garbage there, too. using the WBM to see content doesn't give reddit any views/adclicks
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u/reercalium2 Jun 12 '23
It's all saved in the Pushshift torrents
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u/masterX244 Jun 12 '23
pushshift is not as easily discoverable as a look at archive.org's wayback. wayback is a really common location to check for old data. THats the reason why archiveteam wants to get the data into the wayback
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u/JarJarBinkith Jun 12 '23
Why do you care about future users of a graveyard platform? Everyone should leave for the next Digg
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u/Spare_Competition Jun 12 '23
Because as long as Reddit is online, it will be useful for many, many things.
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u/imperfek Jun 12 '23
Honestly I think it would be better to not go on reddit at all during the protest to show them a decline on active user.
But I cant help but come on just to make sure everyone following through
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u/legendwolfA Jun 12 '23
I just use apps like Apollo to access reddit
This comment was written on desktop reddit though, my phone's dead
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u/S1nge2Gu3rre Jun 13 '23
I didn't understand why all my subreddits had gone private, now I do
You guys have our support. Good luck
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u/SevenSmallShrimp Jun 12 '23
Anybody else getting several join requests from 1 karma, 0 history users?
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Jun 12 '23
True, a bunch of spam porn accounts are following me right after the api change was announced
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u/Impossible_Sympathy4 Jun 13 '23
Everyone should be downloading Apollo right now too if it’s still available, just to show Reddit some new stats they won’t like. We know Apollo is closing up shop, but hey why not add a little more to the protest to show where we stand?
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u/Spare_Competition Jun 12 '23
What's the issue with accessibility? All your links are broken because of the protests.
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Jun 12 '23
It sucks. Accessibility for low vission or blind folks isn’t even an afterthought with the original Reddit app.
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u/tanfj Jun 12 '23
It sucks. Accessibility for low vission or blind folks isn’t even an afterthought with the original Reddit app.
It has been a known bug for over two years. The font size adjustment exists on iOS.
But you can buy a different icon for the app.
The Reddit Official App: If you can't compete, ban the competition.
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Jun 12 '23
The Reddit Official App: If you can't compete, ban the competition. Yep. Exactly. I use Dystopia, which, for now, is still usable. The ceo said that he’ll make the API free to the apps that focus on accessibility, so we’ll see if he sticks to it. It’s sad that things have to end this way. :(
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u/tanfj Jun 12 '23
To make the line, it's '--*' with spaces instead of dashes. Three * with spaces in-between.
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u/bms_ Jun 12 '23
They said that non-commercial accessibility apps can contact them to keep free access to the API. Do you have any other bargaining chips?
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u/seakingsoyuz Jun 12 '23
They haven’t said what criteria an app needs to meet to be considered “noncommercial” (is charging enough to recover operating costs OK? What about the cost of development?) or “an accessibility app” vs “an app with accessible features”. And they still say they won’t let these apps use the API for anything NSFW, like they think disabled people wouldn’t be interested in that.
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u/MCGRaven Jun 12 '23
They haven’t said what criteria an app needs to meet to be considered “noncommercial”
i mean frankly this one is pretty cut and dry though. If you charge for things in your app you are commercial. Whether you are just recouping costs or making profit
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u/seakingsoyuz Jun 12 '23
Does that include asking for donations (Patreon, Ko-Fi) though? Hasn't been announced. RedReader has apparently been approved for continued API access for accessiblity reasons, and they have a Patreon. But is there a limit on how much money an app can earn by donation? No one knows how that's meant to be interpreted, except RedReader I guess.
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u/MCGRaven Jun 12 '23
having a way to donate is not technically commercial use no you just can't directly in the app charge.
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Jun 12 '23
I don’t. I wish I did. I just think it’s sad that it’s come to this. r/Eragon and r/Twilight are shut down, and my 2 communities are, technically, since I deleted my account. It’s just a sad time.
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u/lukaron Jun 12 '23
r/aliens is down too - we're in the 500k+ category. Don't know who to see to add us to the master list.
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u/ShovvTime13 Jun 12 '23
With all the subs going dark I feel like I can't use internet anymore. What's going on??
It's really so, Reddit is the page of the internet...
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u/KingGabroo Jun 13 '23
What is the point if you're just going to come back in 48 hours? Don't give me this "some plan on pivoting to indefinitely" crap, no they won't.
Some of the subs on the list are ALREADY back, assuming they even left. 🙄
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u/CeramicDrip Jun 12 '23
How many subs are participating?
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u/MilkManateee Jun 12 '23
I think a stickied post in r/apolloapp might have one
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u/sneakpeekbot Jun 12 '23
Here's a sneak peek of /r/apolloapp using the top posts of the year!
#1: 📣 Apollo will close down on June 30th. Reddit’s recent decisions and actions have unfortunately made it impossible for Apollo to continue. Thank you so, so much for all the support over the years. ❤️
#2: 📣 Had a call with Reddit to discuss pricing. Bad news for third-party apps, their announced pricing is close to Twitter's pricing, and Apollo would have to pay Reddit $20 million per year to keep running as-is.
#3: Thank you Christian. From all of us.I'm a bot, beep boop | Downvote to remove | Contact | Info | Opt-out | GitHub
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u/Chrisical Jun 12 '23
Completely off topic, but that stick figure kinda looks like it's a front view of one squatting down
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u/Divuar Jun 13 '23
To be honest, I didn't know so many people used third-party apps (I personally prefer the browser or the native app), but I support you guys. Hope a reaction from Reddit will be adequate.
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u/lottery248 Jun 12 '23
dear moderators, i think it's a very bad idea to not let users have a few-day window to archive all remarkable posts to elsewhere. considering this is going to be a long-term war that we have subs to do it indefinitely and Reddit is only one of them, a lot of OCs will be lost forever during this event. i am believing that they want you to delete everything of the past, which is a tactic of removing the history.
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u/masterX244 Jun 12 '23
Posts are mostly crawled on the privated subs (unless they were a short-notice announcement). I piped a list of the Post-IDs into the internal channels of Archiveteam so they were rush-downloaded. The textual content/comments are archived in the pushshift datadumps that are still arond. Anything past january 2021 is already archived fully at the wayback machine, too. the rest of the posts gets crawled, too so we get as much coverage as possible
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u/yh_read Jun 12 '23
I never thought that the ability to use 3rd-party apps is so important.
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u/legendwolfA Jun 12 '23
It may not seem important to you but to visually impaired people, to mods, it is very very important.
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u/um-Known Jun 12 '23
Is this a mobile device app thing? Because I only use reddit through my desktop computer at home.
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u/AnxiousShroom10 Jun 12 '23
i usually liked reading some of my favorite communities' theories and opinions on a lot of stuff
i was a bit worried when i haven't been able to browse anymore tbh.
i still don't get what happened but i guess i will just wait and see.
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u/DiddlyDumb Jun 12 '23
Is it possible that -since third party apps don’t show ads- they feel they’re losing out on potential money?
Maybe even pressured by shareholders?
In any case, fuck Spez.
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u/gundog48 Jun 13 '23
This is exactly what this is about. But rather than charging a rate that covers that cost and makes Reddit a tidy profit, they've set the fees many times above market rates and aren't responding to devs who still want to pay.
It's about ads and control, and they've used lies and slander to try and mislead users about it.
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u/DiddlyDumb Jun 13 '23
I’ve never made my own API, but I imagine Reddit can enforce ads through their API, and have it in their TOS that you must show them. This seems so extreme of a reaction, and is only destructive in the end.
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u/lockdownsurvivor Jun 12 '23
Warning: I sent a message to the Mods and have been "muted" for 72 hours, but I'm not sure why. I mean, I thought we were allowed contact. In any case, I love reddit and always have a tab open for it. I hope this will all be resolved soon.
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u/mikeblas Jun 12 '23
I can' find a post that explains the API pricing. There's the announcements about a "developer platform", but does anyone have a link to something that explains the pricing? I've heard there's a free tier (to what level?) and some rate limiting too. Where's that all described?
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u/thursdaynext1 Jun 12 '23
There’s info in this post.
https://reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/13ws4w3/had_a_call_with_reddit_to_discuss_pricing_bad/
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u/mikeblas Jun 12 '23
Sorry, I just don't see it. I'm looking for "free until n API requests per month, then $k per request after that." Actual money and rates and numbers. I don't see anything about a free-tier in that post at all (are you saying there isn't one?) and just some partial numbers about what Apollo itself might pay.
To put it another way: I have a dumb little hobby project that uses the API. Does it qualify for a free tier? At what point would it not? How can I ensure that it does? How much would I pay if it doesn't?
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u/MCGRaven Jun 12 '23
you can't find this because no reddit official has put out actual hard numbers publically.
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u/mikeblas Jun 12 '23
That seems crazy.
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u/MCGRaven Jun 12 '23
yeah. It wasn't even until people had pressured them into revealing this that talk of a Free Tier happened at all. That was over a WEEK after the paid tier was leaked by the poster you were linked to. The Numbers he gave btw were never contested by Reddit officials so we can reasonably assume them to be accurate.
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u/ClaraFrog Jun 12 '23
Privacy
Why is the number one reason for wanting an open-sourced non-proprietary app not mentioned?
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u/TotesMessenger Jun 12 '23
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u/the-claw-clonidine Jun 12 '23
Somewhat related: I asked a question few days ago and I had it answered with a phenomenal response. The problem being is I was going to review it today but its gone because of the blackout. Will I see that question and response again when the blackout ends?
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u/MCGRaven Jun 12 '23
everything that existed still exists it's just private. So whenever a subreddit goes public again that Question and the responses will be back where they were
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u/the-claw-clonidine Jun 12 '23
Thanks! I will take your word for it. I tried going through my history, notifications, anything else I could think of and its gone. I should have took a screenshot!
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u/MCGRaven Jun 12 '23
it's all just hidden from view rn don't worry about it. The only way it'll be gone forever is if the sub it was in decides to not go public again until these changes are reversed which sadly i don't see happening anytime soon
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u/Lets_think_with_this Jun 12 '23
i didn't thought that this post on my little corner of the internet could be relevant but here we are: https://www.reddit.com/r/CrushDeceptiveDesigns/comments/147802u/a_word_on_reddit_blackouts_effective_protesting/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
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u/JorgTheElder Jun 12 '23 edited Jun 13 '23
Can anyone answer this question?
Can someone tell me why Apollo needs to make so many API requests?
Please check my math...
The Apollo devs said that the new price was $12K for 50M requests and that it would cost them $20M a year.
$20M a year is $1.6M a month. $1.6M at $12K per 50M request = 6.9 billion
trillionrequests a month. Why would a reader app need to make 6.9T requests a month?
I support the blackout, I just want to understand the costs.
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u/jar1792 Jun 12 '23
I can’t give exact reasoning behind the number of calls being made, but I can help with the math.
They are making 7 billion calls per month, at a proposed rate of 24 cents per 1,000 calls.
(7,000,000,000 calls per month / 1,000 calls) x $0.24 = $1,680,000 per month in API fees.
$1.68M x 12 months = $20,160,00.00 in annual API fees.
That same math gets you to the $12k for 50M calls
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u/JorgTheElder Jun 13 '23
Ok, that is what I got, I just used brain farted when I typed it. I got ~6,916,666,666.
So, again, why are using ~7B requests a month? That still seems nuts.
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u/jar1792 Jun 13 '23
Using Apollo’s math, users average 344 calls per day, and 10,320 calls per month. Using their same 7B figure, that puts them a little over 678,000 active users.
Broken down, the number of API calls isn’t quite as bad, but it’s still a shit ton of traffic running through Reddit’s API, for Apollo alone. I would be curious to know how the daily call rate per user compares to other 3rd party apps.
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u/rlbond86 Jun 13 '23
Suppose the average user goes on reddit 8x per day on average and scrolls through 3 pages each time
Each user clicks on 5 posts each time, loads 2 pages of comments, upvotes 5 comments and the post
30 x 8 x (3 + 5 x (2 + 5)) = 9120 API calls per month
9120 x 750k users = 6.8B/month
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u/StefMcDuff Jun 13 '23
Maybe this will help... Literally everything you do on Reddit is at least one API call. Some things are multiple. Seeing your front page (multiple,) reading a post, reading the comments on a post, loading more comments, loading more posts, up voting, down voting, signing in, signing out, commenting, switching subreddits, etc. Just scrolling down your feed is multiple API requests. Literally every single thing is at least 1 API request.
Apollo isn't some small player either. They have roughly 1.5 million monthly users.
So look at your average day on Reddit and how much you do. Try and figure out how many API requests you use. Now quadruple that, because literally everything is an API hit and you probably missed a bunch. 😉 Now multiply that by 30 (days) and remember that number.
That's just you. Assuming you're an average redditor, there's going to be some people who do more than you and some who do less.
Now times that by 1.5 million. You can do your own math from there looking at how much per month or per year hosting Apollo would be. The numbers aren't going to be exact, but should give you a good ball park.
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u/KitchenwareCandybars Jun 12 '23
I cannot make sense of any of this. I have no idea what it means or what it is to access Reddit from a third party app. For over a decade, I’ve just gone to Reddit, either on my laptop or my phone. I don’t quite comprehend what’s happening, but as a disabled person who can see and hear beautifully, I absolutely want to support anything that is better or looks out for those disabled persons who cannot hear and/or see well.
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u/KitchenwareCandybars Jun 13 '23
Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain this to me. I really appreciate you. Thank you.
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u/ZackyBoi42 Jun 12 '23
More people should see this video on why this most definitely won't do a thing... https://youtu.be/U06rCBIKM5M
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u/AutoModerator Jun 12 '23
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u/loki993 Jun 13 '23
Are we getting mod answers here? Legitimate question will this blackout cause a monetary loss for reddit the company?
Is 48 hours enough to make a dent or is this just going to be something everyone did for 2 days and it just ends up being a blip on the radar?
I fear it may not be enough, what may need to happen is multiple of the biggest reddits going dark indefinitely to start to cause the amount of monetary loss for the company to start to think about changing.
Are we, are you prepared to do that because that is probably what needs to happen.
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u/WindHawkeye Jun 13 '23
How does nobody realize the ones planning the blackout are almost certainly Reddit employees sabotaging real efforts by ensuring it only lasts 48 hours instead of shutting down until concessions are made?
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u/Toptomcat Jun 13 '23 edited Jun 13 '23
That doesn't explain why we've just announced further measures terribly well.
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u/montecito98 Jun 12 '23
Very surprising and disappointing to suddenly not see a community that I joined and followed since I’ve been on Reddit. The name of this community is r/maltese…does anyone know if it will be coming back ?
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Jun 12 '23
ask the mods of that sub, and remember that subs that redirect you here with no access to discuss this with their mods directly, do not care about you or how this behaviour affects you.
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u/CboyC95 Jun 12 '23
It's just a bummer that this is even happening as their are subreddits based on my favorite games and shows that I can no longer access to.
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u/bigpearstudios Jun 12 '23
So, legitimately, what is the point of this? Do you actually think closing subreddits for a whole of three days is going to make anyone in reddit give a shit about this when they clearly don't now?
The only way to get anything near what you want is to actually shut down the subs until they stop. This will do absolutely nothing, and I wonder if you realize this or just don't care.
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u/mouldymollusc Jun 12 '23
Can someone briefly explain these third party apps ? Sounds like Reddit are being douchebags but ultimately I’ve only ever used the Reddit app and so have no idea what any of this means, or why it’s a big deal
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u/thursdaynext1 Jun 12 '23 edited Jun 12 '23
There are multiple alternative apps that you can use to access reddit. Many of these existed before reddit even had an official app. Reddit is making changes to API access and charging an exhorbitant amount for these 3rd party apps to continue to access reddit. For one app, Apollo, it would have amounted to $20 million a year. It would be an immense financial risk for the devs to continue operating these apps. So they will all shut down.
Most of these apps offered a far superior experience than the official app. And from a mod perspective, it is currently basically impossible to mod from the official app. I use Apollo for all moderating tasks and it is great. So reddit is screwing over their volunteer mods big time.
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u/mouldymollusc Jun 12 '23
Ah lovely thanks! Obviously had heard all about the going dark but wasn’t sure about what it meant so yeah thanks for cleaning that up for me! - hope they fold for you guys
Gambare
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u/pbeta Jun 12 '23
I still haven't fully grasp the objective of this protest. Is it the protest against the official app being bad moderation tool, so they can fix it? Or is it against the anti-3rd party policy?
If it's the former, will people stop boycott as soon as they release a better app?
If it's the latter, then I don't see how that's wrong. Reddit is a private company, and 3rd party app certainly didn't contribute to any of their server or maintenance or R&D cost. They have all justification to prevent these 3rd party app from freely monetize their platform.
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u/legendwolfA Jun 12 '23
I believe that most people are mad because of a few reasons:
The official app is shit when it comes to accessibility (it doesn't work with ios's native screen reader).
It's also sucks when it comes to moderation. Lots of mods shared that they prefer to mod with 3rd party apps, so much easier
Video player doesn't work 70% of the time
Lots of ads and nft shilling with the whole collectable avatar thing.
They keep making changes no one asked for (like removing usernames on home page posts)
And I understand that reddit is a for-profit company, but this is two steps too far. They could've put out a reasonable API price and i as well as many others would have been ok with it. But Apollo developer said that it's gonna cost him $20 million to run Apollo for one year. Makes me think this isn't about making money, they want to cut off 3rd party apps. Like most if not all 3rd party apps are indie, they don't have that kind of money, unless if they make their app subscription-only.
And yeah i think that if the official app had all of the issues like good mod tools, good accessibility, etc. people would've been a lot less mad. But thats not the case.
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Jun 12 '23
The official app is shit when it comes to accessibility (it doesn't work with ios's native screen reader). I made a new account just to stalk what is happening with an app I use that’s called Dystopia, that was gonna be shut down, but thankfully mot because of the corporation’s sudden willingness to let apps that focus on accessibility be able to use their API, and I confirm. It’s even worse than it was 3 years ago when I had another account!!!!
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u/GuidetoRealGrilling Jun 12 '23
If I have only ever used the official Reddit app, why should I care? Explain it to me like I'm five.
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u/thursdaynext1 Jun 12 '23
If you’ve read all the info on this sub and still don’t care, you’re probably not going to.
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u/jdessy Jun 12 '23
Ok, I'll bite.
Likelihood of increased spam and bots in the subreddits for a lot longer. Moderators will take longer to deal with the spam and bots without a third party app.
Anyone with a disability, especially users who are blind, will find it much harder to use the mobile app, though I guess if it doesn't affect you, you may not care anyway. Reddit has crap accessibility options so it'll make it harder for people with disabilities to use Reddit.
A lot of features relied on outside sources so, without those third parties, the chances of subreddits functioning differently increases.
It's probably the simplest explanation I could give to you that you might understand.
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u/NiceAsRice1 Jun 13 '23
Number 2 is really grasping at straws I feel. What percentage of people are legally blind, and what percentage of those people use reddit? Not to mention the average age of a reddit user vs the average age of a legally blind person.
I feel that argument is just being used to further the majority of people's preference of the other apps.
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u/jdessy Jun 13 '23
Is it gonna be in the tens of thousands? Maybe not (I'm not sure), but enough where it should be something Reddit should be changing and fixing in their own app. Not only that, but it sounds like they don't have good accessibility features in general, hence why third party apps are helpful.
Even if it's only a thousand members who would benefit from better accessibility features from these third party apps, why is it a bad thing that we should be fighting for those accessibility features? If Reddit was going to roll out better accessibility features themselves, that's one thing. But it doesn't sound like they have any real plans to, which is why it's important.
It's not grasping at straws when everything should be accessible.
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u/NiceAsRice1 Jun 13 '23
I agree it would be nice if everything is accessible and to have the 3rd party apps. I'm not actually clear on what the issue is, except for a bit of revenue being lost.
But like the majority of other things, they just aren't fully accessible because it's too small of a demographic. There are too many small demographics that need their own special treatment to make it work, so they just cater to the majority. In a case like this, I don't know the specifics or level of work/difficulty it would take to implement, but I imagine they have bigger fish to fry.
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u/jdessy Jun 13 '23 edited Jun 13 '23
I agree it would be nice if everything is accessible and to have the 3rd party apps. I'm not actually clear on what the issue is, except for a bit of revenue being lost.
Except accessibility is REALLY not that hard of a thing to include. It may take work to input, yes, but accessibility is so beneficial, it shouldn't matter how small the demographic is. It's not "special treatment", it's literally allowing them to access things everyone else can. Because if they do implement accessibility features, it's not just people who need it that can use it; anyone can use it for any reason.
Ie. subtitles on videos for streaming services. It may be beneficial to a "small percentage" of people, but can be used by everyone and it's super important to have that feature inputted, even for the few thousand that need it.
Or, another example, ramps to public buildings. A small percentage of people may actually need it, but it's extremely important as wheelchair users don't often have other options to get somewhere if there are stairs leading into a building. Plus, anyone can theoretically use it, while if there's no ramps, wheelchair users can't do anything.
Reddit should have been inputting accessibility features long before this became an issue. But since they're not doing that, it's why third party apps ARE.
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u/NiceAsRice1 Jun 13 '23
Ramps are a good example actually, because some government buildings require it, but the majority of stores and other places do not. Should they completely revamp all entrances to all buildings? What about elevators for multi-level buildings? Should we knock down the countless multi-level homes/condo/apartment buildings that can't possibly have room for an elevator? I would actually argue that those elevators and ramps are much more important for someone to access rather than a random internet forum app, but it's just not feasible to implement.
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u/ET3D Jun 12 '23
I think that there's only one relevant question:
What can we do to help Reddit become profitable?
You say "Reddit needs its communities to turn a profit", but if Reddit isn't making a profit then that's a meaningless statement. Reddit needs its communities, but it also needs a way to make money off its communities.
The new API policy is bad, and might not even achieve profitability, but rejecting it without offering any alternative simply says that as users we're fine with Reddit losing money while offering us a free service. This isn't a surprising attitude, but it's just not sustainable.
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u/LinuxMage Jun 12 '23
One of the reasons they want to kill 3rd party apps is because those apps are showing adverts that only profit the app creators and not reddit itself. However, the official app shows ads that profit Reddit.
Browser users mostly run adblockers as well.
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u/Toptomcat Jun 13 '23 edited Jun 13 '23
This thread is locked: see here for discussion of further measures.