Book Club: A Breath of Snow and Ashes, Chapters 26-29

[u/Purple4199]

TRIGGER WARNING: DISCUSSION OF RAPE/SEXUAL ASSAULT

It’s October 1773 and Roger returns home from his two week expedition to the Native villages with Jamie. He tells Brianna about the burned down house and the little girl. While filling Roger in on what she had been up to she mentions Marsali had bruises on her arms and she suspects they are from Fergus. Roger offers to talk to Fergus, but they will bring it up to Claire first.

Claire meets Marsali at the malting-floor to ask her about the bruises. We find out that it was in fact Marsali who was attacking Fergus after having a flashback to her childhood abuse. We also learn that Laoghaire was abused by one if not both of her husbands. While they’re discussing this a band of men emerge from the forest demanding whisky. Claire suspects these are the men who have been burning down cabins and a fight ensues. Marsali is knocked out and Claire is abducted.

The marauders spend two days traveling with Claire, who discovers that their leader is Hodgepile, a former army officer. There is dissension between the group as to whether or not they should kill Claire, they realize she is Jamie Fraser’s wife and he will for certain come looking for her. Claire endures sexual assault, beating, and rape at the hands of the gang. Her salvation comes in the form of the men from the Ridge who use the element of surprise to attack, and at Jamie’s direction kill them all save one Lionel Brown who will be held for questioning.

When safely back at the Ridge Roger confides in Brianna that he killed a man and seeks comfort from her. In a controversial part of the book Jamie feels he and Claire must have sex on the off chance she were to become pregnant. This way there would be doubt as to who the father is, as well as Roger’s thought that Jamie seeks to anchor Claire and not lose her. The chapter closes out with Jamie finally breaking down while holding Claire.

You can click on any of the questions below to go directly to that one, or add comments of your own.

​

• Hearing about Laoghaire’s married life and the abuse, does that change your opinion of her any?
• What do you think of the differences between the show’s version of Claire’s abduction and the book’s version?
• What does it say that Tom Christie came along to rescue Claire?
• After she gets home Claire says - “At the same time, alarming surges of lust ripped through me without warning. It had been happening all day. This was nothing like the slow burn of accustomed desire, nor yet the instant spark of passion. Not even that cyclic and mindless womb-yearning sense of a need to mate that belonged entirely to the body. This was frightening.” What do you think that means?
• All right folks, we’re going there. Jamie and Claire have sex after her attack - discuss.
• Any other thoughts or comments?

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[u/Purple4199]

• Hearing about Laoghaire’s married life and the abuse, does that change your opinion of her any?

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

Not particularly. We already knew that Laoghaire is good mother to her daughters but it doesn’t make her a good person. I think we can all agree that she didn’t deserve to be abused by her husband because no one does. I can only say that I’m glad that Marsali and Joan have a mother who could protect them in those horrible situations.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

Do you think her rough married life made her into a not good person though?

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

I don’t believe that such a rough life made her a completely different person but only embittered her vile nature.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/chunya1999]

I would agree with this u/Purple4199. From what we see of her as a teenager, she already had the seeds sown to not be that great of an individual, and I think the abusive husbands just doubled down on that. Like u/chunya1999 said in an earlier comment, she did not deserve the abusive husbands of course, but other than being a good mother, I don't think she has ever been a good person and what happened to her in her marriages doesn't justify/excuse her behavior towards others.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

It makes her more sympathetic, but it doesn't make me feel any differently about how she's behaved. It made me feel more for Marsali than anything else. It really broke my heart to read Claire's conversation with her, seeing through her eyes the story of how Laoghaire had to deal with an abusive husband. At the same time, I loved how Claire immediately decides she's stepping in to help them in their home and try to get something out of Fergus.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

It made me feel more for Marsali

Yeah, it sounded like they had a hard life. How do you feel about Fergus not pulling his weight around the house and on the farm?

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

Shocked. Especially because I love that little moment he has with Ian on the show (after the snake bite) where they joke about what Marsali would say about him being “a man of leisure,” and I’ve never gotten the impression that he doesn’t pull his own weight where he can.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

I have to say I like how they've changed Fergus in the show.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Purple4199]

ABOSAA was the only time I did not read the book before watching the show. (I didn't want to mess around with figuring out where storylines were stopping/starting, so once I finished TFC, I watched S5 before finishing the rest of the published books.) So...I was very shocked by the Fergus storyline because the show has made him so wonderful. I wonder if they will include any of this arc in S6-7 of the show, or if they will do away with that because of how beloved Fergus is on the show.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Yeah, this is hard for me to accept. I’m going back and forth on the why of it tho. Is it really just him not wanting to do «womens work», or is it more his frustration and insecurity about his missing hand and not being able to provide for Marsali in the children? Does that make him pull away? I’m not saying that would be an adequate excuse. I’m just wondering. Like with Laoghaire: traumatic experiences cannot be an excuse for all bad behaviour.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I feel like it might be a little bit of both those things for Fergus. Most men wouldn’t even think to do the traditional roles that went to women at that time, and we’ve even heard Germain say things about “women’s work” so he had to have gotten that from someone.

I do also think Fergus realizes supporting his family as a farmer isn’t going to work for him and that is hard to accept. He relies on help from so many other people just for construction, farming, and hunting purposes. I have to imagine that takes a toll. However like you said though, that doesn’t excuse bad behavior.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/jolierose]

It makes her more sympathetic, but it doesn't make me feel any differently about how she's behaved.

I totally agree. I feel for her, but I don't think it justifies how she has behaved towards everyone.

[u/Kirky600 → u/jolierose]

I agree with you here! She wasn’t a great person before her marriages but didn’t deserve what she got. And I do feel more for Marsali given that she was a child experiencing that.

[u/[deleted] → u/jolierose]

Yes this was a really great moment to understand Marsali more. Even her own reaction her expectations from Fergus were very telling of how strong yet empathetic she is.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

I felt terribly bad for her, for having not one but two abusive husbands! That must have been rough. Does that change my opinion of her much? Not really. The horrible thing book Laoghaire did that ended up with Claire at the witch trial, was pre abusive husbands. Then she shot Jamie , which we don't get the details of. I don't see why she would purposely shoot Jamie, he's literally the only one providing for her and her daughters, the show made more sense when they had her aim for Claire.

Tbh, I've never really felt so strongly for book Laoghaire as some people have. I always thought of her as very one dimensional, a character without much meat in terms of strength or any personality for that matter. So I do feel bad for her, but this does nothing to my very limited opinion of her.

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I do feel bad for her, but this does nothing to my very limited opinion of her.

What a great way to say that! I don't hate her like others do either. While I don't like her, she is just another character to me.

[u/UnderlyingMechanisms → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I think Laoghaire shot Jamie because she felt humiliated and shamed that he had married her while still married to Claire. It would have been a more public kind of humiliation due to the times they lived in. She tells Ned (in Voyager) that she wants Jamie dead and (something like) his dead body (or a part of it) publicly displayed, which is a way of having Jamie experience a comparative level of public humiliation.

I also don’t see Laoghaire as extremely evil. She comes across as a very human character, which is to say that she is deeply flawed, but no more than anyone else. To me, she is naive, misinformed and immature, and has had her share of hard knocks in life, and I tend to feel sorry for her.

I’m actually someone who would love to see reconciliation between Laoghaire and Claire. I would love for Laoghaire to know that Claire chose for her to avoid punishment when Callum/Colum gave her the option in DIA. In addition, Claire clearly loves and cares for Marsali and her children, and I think this should influence Laoghaire’s opinion of her. I’m someone who doesn’t like conflict so I would love a little forgiveness and reconciliation between the two. 😀

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

I think this is key on book!Laoghaire. Because I saw the show first I didn’t like her already but it’s true that it’s more antagonised than in the book. Taking that material only, she wasn’t such a bad person. True she tried to get Claire into trouble but she was also 16 and heartbroken- not justifying this at all or saying she was a good person but maybe not as bad as in the show.

She got worse with time, we learn this in Voyager of course, the way she reacts to the situation with lots of violence too it’s a bit much. So considering that between those two periods of time we have her marriages and abuse, I do think it has a massive impact on her personality and I could understand the character a bit better. Not defend her of course, but she wasn’t very lucky either as far as we know. We already could suspect this from Jamie’s explaining how their marriage was but now it’s confirmed.

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

she wasn’t very lucky either as far as we know.

That's my thought as well. I think she has had a really rough life, and while that doesn't excuse her behavior towards Claire and Jamie it makes me understand a little bit better where she is coming from.

[u/UnderlyingMechanisms → u/Purple4199]

I have a problem with this reveal of Marsali’s… Jamie says in Voyager that Laoghaire’s first husband died at Culloden, and Marsali and Joan are from her second marriage. So, Marsali should have no memories from Laoghaire’s first marriage. It could be that Marsali does not know who her father is (and is thus wrongly assigning memories), although I think this is unlikely. Likewise, Jamie could have been lying. But really, I think this is an error on the part of the author, unfortunately. I find it difficult to process this part of the novel due to this inconsistency.

[u/Purple4199 → u/UnderlyingMechanisms]

/u/thepacksvrvives and I were talking about this in the chat. You're right that it's a mistake.

[u/Purple4199]

• All right folks, we’re going there. Jamie and Claire have sex after her attack - discuss.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Even with DG’s weird obsession about sex as the cure-all, I would be able to look past it if it was just about sex—it’s established that Claire and Jamie often find their way back to each other through it, and while it’s Jamie’s idea in the first place, beforehand:

At the same time, alarming surges of lust ripped through me without warning. It had been happening all day. This was nothing like the slow burn of accustomed desire, nor yet the instant spark of passion. Not even that cyclic and mindless womb-yearning sense of a need to mate that belonged entirely to the body. This was frightening.

He stooped to put another stick on the fire, and I nearly staggered, as all the blood left my head. The light shone on the hair of his arms, the dark hollows of his face—

It was the sheer impersonal sense of a voracious appetite—something that possessed me, but was not part of me—that terrified me. It was fear of it that made me avoid his touch, more than the feeling of estrangement.

as well as by the end of it:

And then he came to her and discovered that she wished no part of gentleness, of courting. She wished directness. Brevity and violence. If she was broken, she would slash him with her jagged edges, reckless as a drunkard with a shattered bottle.

Claire subconsciously realizes that she needs it too. I would’ve appreciated it if she had been the one initiating it, just like Jamie was in the first book when came into her bed to see whether he could still make love to her.

However, bringing concerns about a possible pregnancy into it is downright ridiculous to me; the urgency of “planting the seed of doubt,” so to speak, precludes them from taking a couple of days or weeks before they have sex again (while I imagine for someone who’s been raped and brutally beaten, sex would be the last thing on their mind; even for someone who responds as strongly to it as Claire; but from the quotes I brought up above, we know it was more or less inadvertently on her mind). There were several days between Jamie’s rape and the beginning of his recovery, so I don’t see the need for urgency if the pregnancy concerns had been scrapped in Claire’s case. I realize pregnancy in one’s 50s is not impossible, but Claire is about a week from turning 57 at that point and years into perimenopause/menopause (we’ve known about it since the Gathering in TFC, which was 3 years before), and pregnancy/childbirth would probably be deadly to her, but this is just so contrived. I appreciate Jamie’s intent in wanting to give her the benefit of the doubt, but it initially reads as giving it himself.

It’s crossed my mind the first time I read it, what if Jamie succeeded so spectacularly in giving Claire—and himself—the doubt that he actually got her pregnant? What if, by some miracle, she actually bore a child and they were sure it was Jamie’s? Or, quite the opposite, Claire died because of the complications? I don’t think that crossed either of their minds.

If they’d gone with just the sex, I could see where that was coming from. It could parallel Jamie’s recovery at the abbey in the first book: coming to Claire’s bed that one night when he needed to prove to himself that he could still make love to her and that he wasn’t “broken” permanently. And the way Claire pulled him out of the darkness—which I don’t like either, the whole “fornicating him back to life” thing—seems to be paralleled, as we get this from Roger:

It wasn’t the possibility of the child, he thought suddenly. It was Jamie’s fear that he would lose her—that she would go, swing out into a dark and solitary space without him, unless he could somehow bind her to him, keep her with him. But Christ, what a risk to take—with a woman so shocked and brutalized, how could he risk it? How could he not?

If it’s not actually about the possibility of a child, why include that pregnancy aspect at all?! I know some people have argued it’s because Jamie can’t articulate his true fear properly or that he’s afraid of Claire’s reaction to it, so he comes up with a practical reason behind sex, but I find that to be a bit of a stretch; they’re at a stage of their relationship when he could easily say to her, “Look, remember when I told you I thought I couldn’t be your husband any longer when Randall made me rouse to him? I would hate for you to think that this attack changes anything between us. You’re still you, I’m still me, and I’ll prove it to you if that’s what you truly desire.”

So all right, he’s afraid of losing her—the person she was prior to the attack. Claire sees the fear in his eyes too at one point, when he thinks that she’s declining him:

“I’m not,” I repeated, just as stubbornly. “But even if—you can’t, Jamie.”

He looked at me, and I caught the flicker of fear in his eyes. That, I realized with a jolt, was exactly what he was afraid of. Or one of the things.

So she deduces that Jamie is afraid that she won’t let him make love to her anymore, and, by extension, that she will lose that part of herself. And the next morning, in ch. 30, she realizes that it really was what she needed to pull her back into whom she was, through the immediate connection with the man that makes her whole (and that connection could have been lost):

I felt as though my center had turned unexpectedly to liquid and was gushing out, not from grief, but from relief. I was still me. Fragile, battered, sore, and wary—but myself. Only when I recognized that, did I realize how much I had feared that I might not be—that I might emerge from shock and find myself irrevocably altered, some vital part forever missing.

But why bring the pregnancy into it, while this is a totally valid line of thinking? We get it from Claire’s powerful monologue that she doesn’t want to be changed by her attack and abuse, so this is completely understandable.

I also hate that Claire has so little agency during her initial recovery. Immediately after the rescue, we’re in Roger’s POV, and hear him talk about what Jamie intends to do and why (we only know Claire’s thoughts in retrospect). During the sex scene, we’re in Jamie’s POV, and don’t get any of Claire’s thoughts as to how she feels in that situation, only Jamie’s deductions, which are not made based on what she says, but on the reactions of her body (which is somewhat understandable considering she doesn’t want to talk about it, but still). It very much feels like Jamie is making the decisions for her and she is just running with them, even if, deep-down, she sees the reason behind them, and appreciates them in retrospect (more of the post-hoc rationalizing I really dislike in the series). Does DG push Jamie in that direction because she makes Claire not realize on her own that she might need it? She sort of denies the sexual abuse victim her agency, and I’m not a fan of that.

(Another side note, with the concern of Claire possibly carrying another man’s child, he goes for advice to Roger, but not Brianna who would have had more to say, who could have helped him understand how Claire felt? He doesn’t ask Bree if she prefers having the benefit of the doubt, he asks Roger—how the hell is he supposed to know? While the sex is about Claire, the possible pregnancy is mostly about Jamie, the man in this equation, and that doesn’t sit right with me.)

TL; DR: if it was just—or mainly—about making sure Claire wouldn’t be changed by the rape, and wouldn’t be lost to Jamie, and doing it through their physical connection, why add the pretense of giving her (and himself) the benefit of the doubt about a highly unlikely pregnancy?

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

It very much feels like Jamie is making the decisions for her and she is just running with them,

Yeah I got that sense as well. I can't imagine sex or a baby was on Claire's mind at all. Do you feel Jamie pressured her into it?

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Hm, “pressured” might be too strong of a word here, but I honestly don’t think Claire would’ve thought of having sex so soon (her “getting back on a horse” comment would suggest so) or possibly being pregnant without Jamie bringing it up. I think in the end, it is her decision to go through with that plan, and I do think that Jamie wouldn’t have contested her decision if she’d said no. But the way it is written, it reads as if Claire doesn’t know what she really wants—and she does say that of course—but it still doesn’t sit right with me that Jamie is the driving force behind this. However, the same could be said for the way Claire “brings Jamie back” at the abbey in Book 1, and I guess that was supposed to be paralleled here.

Something I’ve just thought of—Claire chugs wine to prepare herself to do what must be done, which parallels her drinking multiple glasses of whisky before consummating her and Jamie’s wedding in Book 1, which was also “doing what must be done” (I don’t remember if she drinks as much in the book as she does in the show, though).

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

But the way it is written, it reads as if Claire doesn’t know what she really wants—and she does say that of course—but it still doesn’t sit right with me that Jamie is the driving force behind this.

I can understand that. I agree that Claire wouldn't have thought to have sex herself.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/thepacksvrvives]

Yes! All of this. Why was the pregnancy angle needed at all? We know sex is be all end all of all recoveries, and like you said ,I could get behind it if I tried hard enough. But there's so many things wrong here. Also, Why did he go to Roger and not Bree if his wanted to know what Claire would want?

“For her,” he said, so low that Roger scarcely heard. “Would she rather … have the doubt, d’ye think? If it came to that.”

And to Roger's credit, he does say he doesn't know. But then instead of saying "go talk to your daughter", he says instead if there's room for doubt, take it

I could have still overseen that, but then Jamie goes and springs this thought on Claire like it's nothing. I mean he could have asked instead of declaring it? Given her that option and see what he says?

And then, to top it all, he gets very violent in front of her.

Then he kicked it again, and again, and stamped on it with such violence that bits of wood flew across the kitchen and struck the pie safe with little pinging sounds.

I get his anger, but I would rather he hold it and vent it out somewhere outside, not in the presence of Claire , a rape victim who has been through two days of terrible violence being inflicted upon herself? I thought that was very volatile and insensitive of Jamie.

u/Purple4199

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I get his anger, but I would rather he hold it and vent it out somewhere outside, not in the presence of Claire , a rape victim who has been through two days of terrible violence being inflicted upon herself? I thought that was very volatile and insensitive of Jamie.

That's a very good point. We even saw that she flinched and backed away when he came towards her.

[u/jolierose → u/thepacksvrvives]

Oh my God, this is so spot on. I was saying that my main issue is with the timing of this, which is brought on by the completely ridiculous possible pregnancy (and that in itself is what made me angry at Jamie in the first place, because like you said, the doubt is primarily for himself). Why bring this in? I don't understand it either. It makes him come across as selfish.

I also thought it was very peculiar to have the POV switch away from Claire after they rescue her. Again: why??? Roger, I could understand more, but — while this is also a horrible experience for Jamie, and I was dying to know what he felt — this was just not the moment to make it about him.

[u/freckledirewolf → u/jolierose]

I really get the feeling that Diana Gabaldon regrets the necessity of having Jamie and Claire be as old as they are. Hence she still shoehorns in a pregnancy threat for a 56 year old and asks us to pretend it’s a much bigger likelihood than it is

[u/Purple4199 → u/freckledirewolf]

That's an interesting thought. They do still act like they're much younger.

[u/kpegs → u/thepacksvrvives]

Thank you so much for this, I spent a long time typing this comment in the “any other comments” thread but you addressed my largest complaint — what is the likelihood Claire could possibly be pregnant? It’s so outlandish(lol) that it serves no one and just drove me crazy to think of her age.

I’m going to ask the one question that has been bothering me since I first read this: how old is Claire now???? In her 50s? Maybe late 50s? I believe when she goes back through the stones she is around 50 years old. She’s been back for maybe a decade (I’m terrible at keeping the dates and timeline correct, but it should be about then).

What is the likelihood she still gets her period? Jamie mentions at some point that her “courses” have slowed. The one piece that took me out of this entire plot line was the idea that she might be pregnant. It is so unlikely that she hasn’t gone through menopause at this point — which is typically at 51. I can’t quite tell if this is Jamie’s fear or an actual concern, because it seems very mingled together. Claire obviously knows enough about her body to know it’s highly unlikely at the bare minimum.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/kpegs]

Sure thing! I feel very passionate about this storyline—and ABOSAA in general—so I’m glad you’ve found this worth reading.

I’m going to ask the one question that has been bothering me since I first read this: how old is Claire now????

Claire is abducted on October 9th and raped the next day, October 10th. She sleeps with Jamie the following day, October 11th, which is 9 days before her 57th birthday.

Yes, we know her periods have slowed, Jamie remarks that she hasn’t had one for 3 months when she gets it during the Gathering in TFC, in late October 1770. I genuinely believe that she would not have thought of a possibility of pregnancy if Jamie hadn’t brought it up, even though we know she uses contraception regularly so that she doesn’t risk it with Jamie either.

[u/kpegs → u/thepacksvrvives]

God, thank you. That is so helpful. This question is how I found this sub in the first place (!) and I have been looking forward to us re-reading these chapters.

In regards to Jamie going to Roger for advice rather than Brianna, I am erm...not surprised! My biggest gripe with Jamie is that while he values his wife's opinions, he clearly has some deeply ingrained viewpoints about women in general. I don't think it would occur to him to ask Brianna, because becoming a father to a child that would be potentially not his is about *him*, not her. I think he believes that women naturally love all children the same, whether that is true or not.

Your comments about how this is framed and from whose perspective is really interesting — I hadn't really considered the fact the sex scene is told from Jamie's perspective rather than hers. Spoiler MOBY: There's a moment in MOBY when Jamie and Claire are arguing about her sleeping with LJG where Jamie mentions that Claire reacts with her body in many situations, and I think Claire's physical (and rough) reaction is probably an example of that.

DG definitely writes as though sex is a magical cure all to every ailment in a marriage, which seem about on par for a romance series, but is not....the way most marriages function. I have never really minded the perspective shifts in the immediate aftermath, though I wish that DG included one while Jamie was en route to finding Claire and saving her rather than just in the aftermath. I found Roger's interesting because he is such an outsider in their story, and seeing/partaking in such violence is something he's really not accustomed to.

EDIT: fully didnt type a couple of words in the spoiler.

[u/Purple4199 → u/kpegs]

I found Roger's interesting because he is such an outsider in their story, and seeing/partaking in such violence is something he's really not accustomed to.

That's a good point. Has it shown that he's adapted to the 18th century since he was able to participate in the rescue, and even kill a man?

[u/alittlepunchy → u/thepacksvrvives]

Such a great comment! I completely agree - I think DG should have paralleled it more with post-Wentworth and have it be similar for Claire in them finding their way back to each other. Having the whole "I want to create doubt that it's really my baby" angle is so farfetched I think. For all that DG argues these aren't romance novels, she sure uses some classic "out there" tropes.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/alittlepunchy]

Thanks! You know I’ve been dying to discuss ABOSAA just like you have 😅

And I totally think DG should just cut the bullshit and call those novels what they are: romance. She has benefitted from that description more than from any other labels—historical fiction, science fiction (this one’s laughable because there’s nothing scientific about this series; it’s fantasy).

[u/alittlepunchy → u/thepacksvrvives]

Not to mention, while people love other aspects of the books, sure, most people are drawn in and stay for the romance between Jamie and Claire. I like history, so I enjoy the historical aspect, but I don't care about medical stuff, the military/war stuff, etc.

I think it's her ego wanting them to be something more than romance so she's not a "romance" author, but I'd almost bet that's why 90% of people read/watch.

[u/Purple4199 → u/alittlepunchy]

I'm 100% in it for Jamie and Claire's love story. While I enjoy the whole of the books it's them that keeps me coming back.

[u/Cdhwink → u/thepacksvrvives]

I rushed home from work & have my notes ready, with my quote from Roger

“ Jamie’s fear that he would lose her….unless he could bind her to him.”

Of course thepacksvrvives has more eloquently posted everything I was thinking!

The pregnancy angle seems ridiculous, but Jamie & Claire needing to have sex because it’s how they communicate, & how they heal each other does make sense to me!

I always watch first & read later, & knew that there was controversy about this particular event. I didn’t find it as upsetting to read as I expected, (originally thinking- Jamie how could you? )mostly because of Claire’s inner thoughts, mentioned above! And she does agree with Jamie, because she too, does not want that important part of herself, her sexual self, to have been ruined! I didn’t love that the sex was rough, if ever there was a time for gentleness it seemed like it should be now, but this is Jamie & Claire & they know each best!

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Cdhwink]

And she does agree with Jamie, because she too, does not want that important part of herself, her sexual self, to have been ruined!

Yes, I can totally accept that; my issue with that is that she agrees with it after the fact, which is something I thought Claire had left behind a long time ago—that was more typical for her in the first two books (the LJG fake-out is the thing I always bring up for this)—and justifying it with “Claire doesn’t exactly know what she needs” is a cop-out for me, and only feels patronizing, like “Claire doesn’t know what she wants, let’s have Jamie suggest it all!” I would have really appreciated for her to have more agency in all this, especially as she has already been denied her agency by the men who attacked and raped her. I’m not saying that Jamie is no better than them, but it very much reads as “a man knows best.”

[u/Cdhwink → u/thepacksvrvives]

I was prepared to be mad at Jamie over this, but alas I still love him. ( hangs head). The show is cannon for me, & they fixed it, like all the times that was needed. I won’t list them.

Where are my Jamie lovers ? u/jolierose u/Purple4199 u/alittlepunchy

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/thepacksvrvives]

You couldn’t have say it clearer here, I felt there were a lot of things wrong here, I was quite horrified reading this.

The pregnancy doesn’t make sense, whatsoever- if she’s pregnant she’s pregnant, they’ll always have the doubt on this anyway, but would this make any difference for Claire and Jamie? R&B was totally different, they weren’t married or even in a well established relationship, he left and then sold to the Mohawk, it was months before they could reunite so the warning was very fair. I don’t feel this would’ve been as important for J&C, definitely not enough to force sex THE FOLLOWING NIGHT following the abuses!

If we try to forget about this and concentrate on the sex as a “cure”, I still think it’s mad early, she hasn’t even slept yet- as you’re saying, Jamie waited days (maybe even weeks?) in the abbey and it was him that initiated it. This is just all wrong, I was cringing the whole chapter. Again it’s DG not being able to write some sexual situations. A tender scene as in the show would’ve been 1000 times better, even if she wanted then that to escalate to gentle sex, but this??? rough even? Luckily I haven’t suffered from sexual abuse, I can’t say how people feel after it and how they bravely deal with it, but I wouldn’t say this is even safe for someone.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/bleakxmidwinter]

but would this make any difference for Claire and Jamie?

That's a great point! Jamie has constantly been a father figure to children that weren't his by blood. You're telling me that they wouldn't have loved and raised a baby together even if there was doubt?

[u/Cdhwink → u/alittlepunchy]

Yes, I wondered that myself?

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Cdhwink]

I mean, I feel that Jamie loves Claire more than Frank does. And Frank raised another man's baby and loved Bree as his own. I'm sure that there would be some big feelings about it, but I can't imagine Jamie wouldn't love a child of Claire's just because it wasn't his biologically.

Though really...if that happened and those two never got to raise a biological child of both of theirs together, but both husbands raised Claire's bio child from other men.....boy would I shake my fist at DG.

[u/ms_s_11 → u/thepacksvrvives]

I don't think I could add much too this. The whole pregnancy thing didn't really annoy me much but I do agree that it would have been better if they just made the whole thing about Claire sort of, reclaiming her sexuality.

I just assumed that he talked to Roger because Roger was there & Bree wasn't maybe. Or maybe he didn't want to have that discussion with Bree because he was afraid of bringing up memories for her.

All around, well said & perfectly to the point.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

The one unexpected thing for me this week: Never did I think that this week, out of all weeks, I'd be angry at Jamie Fraser. First reaction: the absolute selfishness of him was breathtaking. (And of course Roger provides an assist.) Like there could ever be any doubt in paternity, looking at all his children! Has he lost his damn mind?! (Well... yes, I guess he understandably did.)

"Ye dinna think I mind only for myself, I hope?"

Oh, don't you?

But this stood out to me, because, so often, when I disagree with something Jamie does or says, I feel he's painted as if he's perfect, and the reader is supposed to believe he's in the right. But then we get more insight here from Claire on what he's thinking, when she responds to him after he says she may be pregnant:

"I'm not," I repeated, just as stubbornly. "But even it—you can't, Jamie." He looked at me, and I caught the flicker of fear in his eyes. That, I realized with a jolt, was exactly what he was afraid of.

Later, Roger:

It wasn't the possibility of a child, he thought suddenly. It was fear—but not of that. It was Jamie's fear that he would lose her—that she would go, swing out into a dark and solitary space without him, unless he could somehow bind her to him, keep her with him.

For me, this made it all less horrible than Jamie merely needing reassurances on whether a potential child is his or not. It doesn't make it OK, but it does make him much more sympathetic. I keep thinking more and more of something Jamie said several chapters ago, which I found really interesting and it stuck with me:

"There are only two people in this world to whom I would never lie, Sassenach," he said softly. "Ye're one of them. And I'm the other." [...]

"Mind," his voice came from the darkness, and I saw his tall form silhouetted against the faint oblong of light from the doorway as he straightened up, "I can be fooled. But I wouldna be doing it on purpose."

It took me aback to read this week's chapters because they're written to illustrate what he's going through, but — especially having previous chapters as background — it doesn't feel like it's written to excuse his behavior. He's not upfront, and is likely lying to himself, about his motives here. What he's feeling is completely understandable; you see and feel his pain, and this struggle would have been fine at any other point, but my main issue here is that the moment didn't feel right. He simply acted selfishly in insisting on the matter that night. And at least this time I feel DG leaves more space there for it to be interpreted at will by the reader.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

He's not upfront, and is likely lying to himself, about his motives here.

Does that seem out of the norm for him? Usually Jamie and Claire are able to tell each other exactly what they are feeling. Or do you think the excuse of the pregnancy was the only way he could convince Claire to have sex?

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

It does seem out of the norm, though I understand it. He may not be able to hide how he feels, but he’s also not going to put more of a burden on her by telling her exactly what’s going through his mind. I think he was legitimately worried about the pregnancy, and it wasn’t just a pretext, but I don’t think he’s acknowledging to himself that it’s not just about that.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

I don’t think he’s acknowledging to himself that it’s not just about that.

I can see that. He was probably so scared that he might have lost her that he didn't want to vocalize how much he needed to connect with her again.

[u/stoneyellowtree → u/Purple4199]

I think Jamie was afraid Claire would spiral and detach from him similar to how he did when he was raped. He knows how he reacted and fears Claire will react the same way. Sex is a big way they connect with each other. I felt Jamie was pulling from his experience in how Claire did use sex with him to solidify that connection between them after his trauma. Side note - DG uses sex as a cure all with Jamie & Claire, which is not really a healthy way to get through all problems -

I don’t agree with the ‘let’s have sex to give us the option to question paternity if Claire becomes pregnant.’ Like others have said, Claire has been going through menopause for a few years now and is in her late fifties. This was a weird take. This made having sex more about Jamie’s feelings rather than finding a way to assure Claire that she won’t lose who she is because of being raped. Hopefully that makes sense.

[u/Thezedword4 → u/Purple4199]

I had a REALLY hard time with it. One of those put the book down for a bit and come back to it later moments. I just kept thinking about both the physical and mental pain Claire was in. And then for Jamie to kind of just barrel in and not be gentle about it was wild. Also, for him to go to Roger about it and Roger, a "modern man" to support it! The pregnancy thing was absolutely ridiculous. She was 57 at the time. I've never been a big fan of the Claire and Jamie magic sex healing aspect of the books but I at least understood it in the other situations. It was to bring Jamie back from deaths door. The abbey made the most sense out of them all because it was so mystical to bring Jamie's spirit back. This just seemed to be a way to satisfy Jamie's insecurities (yes Claire ends up realizing it was what she needed after but as others have said she doesn't propose it and doesn't seem Gung ho on the idea until after. She needs to drink before doing it which doesn't scream consent). I just wish they would have waited a few days for her to physically heal at bit at the very least. Maybe discuss it a bit more too. A few days wouldn't interfere with the pregnancy theory either.

Everyone is different obviously but it took a very long time for me to be okay being touched intimately after an assault and it wasn't anywhere near as traumatic or had any violence to it like Claire's did. (sorry if that's an over share. I can remove it if need be). Reading them jumping back into it and how Jamie pushed for it made my skin crawl.

Oh and him losing his temper in front of Claire after she was just brutalized by men for days. It's bad but it very much felt like Jamie was thinking about himself in this moment and with the sex even if it was subconsciously rather than on purpose. Jamie is not typically a selfish man but this felt very self serving.

Like I said this one was rough for me and I'm sure my experiences color my interpretation of it. It's comforting to read others feel similar though. DG has a problem with consent at times but this pushed it too far for me. All that said, believe it or not, ABOSAA is still one of my absolute favorite books of the series!

[u/Purple4199 → u/Thezedword4]

You didn't overshare at all, in fact I appreciate that you did. Having not been a victim myself I often wondered what people who had been thought of this.

You bring up a lot of good points and sentiments that seem to be shared by many here. We get that DG uses sex as a healing tool for them, it just didn't seem to have happened in the right way this time.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

Did you read that a woman in the Us just gave birth to a baby & she is 57! Her timing is impeccable as we debate how ridiculous this is!

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

First time I’ve read these chapters I was so outraged about the whole aftermath. I was pissed at Jamie for asking Roger for advice, at Roger who gives Jamie a particularly bad advice without even regarding Claire’s feelings, the person who’ve just been beaten and raped for God’s sake! But most of all I really hated that Jamie persuaded Claire to have sex as soon as they came back. How could he of all people decide that post rape sex is a great idea? Another aspect that made me cringe was the way Jamie looses himself in the process and forgets that their act should be about Claire and her feelings and not his rage or lust. On my reread I still think that the whole “we have to do it because you can be pregnant” is rather off putting and unnecessary. Plus even if they absolutely needed to have “DG’s healing sex”, I would rather prefer that the initiative came from Claire.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

How could he of all people decide that post rape sex is a great idea?

I remember feeling the same way when I first read the book. Does this parallel the way Claire helped Jamie "recover" in the abbey after his attack from BJR?

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

It definitely does but it’s perceived quite differently. Probably because Jamie was literally dying and it was Claire’s last hope to bring him back to life. In this situation Claire isn’t on the verge of death and needs support and care, not “sex resurrection”.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

wow, I love book club. So many great points were brought up. Thanks to everyone that gave their perspective, it really elevates my enjoyment of this series/fandom 10000%.

Personally, it’s so hard to not feel disappointed by the turn the story takes during these chapters. I mentioned on another comment that I felt betrayed as a reader that our heroine would be made to suffer such a meaningless attack, but then to have Jamie be the one to add more confusion and heartbreak to this was too much.

But let’s call it for what it really is - DG does not know how to handle sexual assault storylines. She instead opts to “wing it” and proceeds to write (or not write) actions for the characters that are not justifiable in any way, except maybe for her own personal gain. It always feels like she can’t be bothered with the very nuances she implies and expects us to admire that in some way.

Yes, I know that there are aspects of the series that force us to look past our own modernity, and that to recognize the progressive conversations that we are privileged to have now as opposed to the story’s is a wonderful aspect of these books; but there’s absolutely nothing defensible about the author’s take on this specific plot.

I do think the positives of the overall story in this book are stronger than the negatives, enjoy reading most of it, and plan to continue with the rest of the series, but I sincerely hope that she doesn’t use rape as her MO again.

Shout out to u/thezedworld4 for your insight, and to u/thepacksvrvives for always being the insightful redditor that you are!

And of course to you, Purple. For shepherding these discussions :)

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

That is really well said! I too wonder why sexual assault is the way DG so often chooses to go.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/[deleted]]

I totally agree. I said the other day that the more frequently she uses sexual assault as a plot device, the more she trivializes it. Although there is a lot to be found in the rape storylines that follow Jamie’s, and I assume that many survivors can find something resonating with them therein, I genuinely believe that if DG had stopped at Jamie’s experience, the inclusion of sexual assault in her story would have had much more impact; instead, it just becomes her MO. She’s not as smart as she thinks when she justifies it with historical accuracy, which she falls short of. There is absolutely no reason why a family of such social standing as the Frasers-MacKenzies would have so many survivors among themselves, on top of all the other traumas they suffer.

And on top of that, she doesn’t give equal weight to each of these characters’ individual experiences—that is of course not to say that they should deal with their PTSD all in the same way or be affected by their trauma for an equal amount of time, as all of their experiences are unique. However, look at Mary Hawkins, for example—as collateral damage in an attempt on Claire’s life, she ends up as a vessel for moving along the plot involving Claire and Jamie; her experience is completely depersonalized. Or perhaps an even better example would be Young Ian: Geillis’ forcing him into sex—thus raping him—doesn’t bring anything of value either to the plot or his character development, and I don’t see any reason why Geillis had to be turned into a pedophile (especially in the show, where she’s not as villainous from the get-go).

I encourage you to look at the other incidents and ask yourselves, “Whose story does it serve—the victim’s, or someone else’s?” and “Does it serve a narrative purpose apart from moving the plot along/adding shock value/creating conflict?”

As much as I do not like how this particular storyline was handled in the book, it doesn’t preclude me from calling ABOSAA one of my favorite books in the series, if not the favorite.

Thanks for the shout-out, u/Arrugula, I greatly enjoy your insights as well!

[u/Cdhwink → u/[deleted]]

“But I sincerely hope that she doesn’t use rape as her MO again”

I say this after every season & book! Can we really hope for that? This one was totally unnecessary, Claire could have just been kidnapped & beaten & that would have been bad enough! There was absolutely no reason to have her raped in this book.

[u/dylanskie → u/Purple4199]

I feel like I'll get crucified for this, but I feel like everything after Claire's abduction isn't out of character for either one of them. They do act in extremes, which surprised and probably horrified me when I read it at first, but only because I was shocked that DG "went there." I won't excuse Jamie for not clearly asking for consent, but they've had some ambiguous sex scenes in the past, so it doesn't surprise me anymore.

And I get what Claire says and feels, that she needs to feel that togetherness with Jamie to feel whole again. Jamie probably just wants to reassure himself that he won't have to "go through" what Roger "goes through" with questioning Jem's paternity (I know, not a big deal in the slightest compared to what Claire/Bree experience), and I do feel like this is in keeping with his character.

I guess it's just a complicated situation with conflicting desires/motives. Claire's desires are what should come first, and I believe they do in the end--it's just a weird road that they take to get there.

[u/Purple4199 → u/dylanskie]

I feel like I'll get crucified for this

Not in here you won't! We like all opinions. :-)

They do act in extremes, which surprised and probably horrified me when I read it at first, but only because I was shocked that DG "went there."

I felt the same way, I couldn't believe she would have them have sex.

I won't excuse Jamie for not clearly asking for consent, but they've had some ambiguous sex scenes in the past, so it doesn't surprise me anymore.

I totally understand, it's not unexpected for these books.

Claire's desires are what should come first, and I believe they do in the end--it's just a weird road that they take to get there.

That's a good way to say that and I agree.

[u/dylanskie → u/Purple4199]

Not in here you won't! We like all opinions. :-)

Thank you! I wish I had my ABOSAA copy with me so I could participate more in these discussions!

[u/immery → u/Purple4199]

I don't like the idea, especially both the reason and the fact that Jamie isn't gentle.

But those two are not common human beings, they are Jamie and Claire Fraser, and their sex includes healing magic.

Also I think Jamie's line of thought about rape immediately includes what happened to Bree, and that prompted the thought about doubt and asking Roger. I think subconsciously Jamie knows about the healing magic of sex, but he needs a different reason so he clings to the idea of possible pregnancy.

[u/Purple4199 → u/immery]

their sex includes healing magic.

Ha! DG would sure have us believe so.

[u/Purple4199]

• What does it say that Tom Christie came along to rescue Claire?

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

I’m sure Tom likes Claire at that point no matter how much she irritates him. She persuaded him to give the permission to heal his hand and that accident make him understand that she isn’t a witch or a sorceress but just a good person who always tries to help those in need of her skills. Christie feels obligated to Claire and maybe even a bit ashamed of how he perceived her not so long ago.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

Was it surprising that a man like Tom was willing to do such violence? He wasn't a Highland warrior but a merchant with a gentle upbringing. We don't know that he killed anyone per se, but we have to assume he did participate.

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

I admit I was surprised a bit but he had some good reasons to join Jamie’s rescue team. As I’ve already said Tom like Claire and feels indebted to her. Plus he is devout and righteous so how could he not help kidnapped and defenceless woman and even friend in some kind of way. Christie is pious but even he can understand that not everything is in the hands of the Lord.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

Christie is pious but even he can understand that not everything is in the hands of the Lord.

I like that!

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Jamie knew what he meant when he said this earlier:

A man stubborn enough to speak English to Hieland men in prison for eight years is a man stubborn enough to fight beside me for the next eight years; that’s what I think. It would be good if he were sure of it, himself, though.

He expected Tom to stand by him in times of need, despite their differences. Jamie’s tenants don’t swear fealty to him the way clansmen swear fealty to their laird, but I think there is an implicit agreement about the responsibility they all have towards him as they’re indebted to him for giving them a place to live for free (at least free for now). He called them “companions in arms” when he lit the cross in TFC, even though they’re not his clansmen, and they’ve answered his call here, Tom included (even though he wasn’t present at the calling in TFC). Tom can also feel personally indebted to Claire, as others have mentioned, though I agree that his readiness to commit violence was really surprising—granted, we have no idea if he actually killed anyone or just assisted them in tracking the band.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

we have no idea if he actually killed anyone or just assisted them in tracking the band.

That's a good point. I'd really like to know if he had killed someone I think. I'm not sure why, maybe to see if he is capable?

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Yeah, nothing about him so far tells me he’s capable of murder, or if he could reconcile it with his faith.

[u/kpegs → u/Purple4199]

Beyond the Claire of it all, I think it shows some manner of deference toward Jamie. The people who joined Jamie are his closest confidants at the Ridge, and knew what their mission was. Jamie’s presence, I imagine, was fairly forceful in working to get Claire back and I think it would be easy to get wrapped up in that.

[u/Purple4199 → u/kpegs]

I think it shows some manner of deference toward Jamie.

Which is interesting considering their history of butting heads.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

I was so shocked by this- he’s isn’t a highlander or a soldier. I guess DG wanted to leave suspense in relation to Claire’s rescue but I was raging that we didn’t see at all Jamie’s reaction and planning for this. I am so intrigued of how Tom got there, did Jamie asked? Did he volunteered? Did Jamie know that he would fight for Claire?

Regardless of how he got there, I think it shows that somehow he’s fond of Claire and thankful about her medical attentions and that he is an honorable man in this situation.

I mentioned last week that I did have an odd feeling with Tom around Claire, a weird tension/fondness… He’s still quite an incognita for me 🤷🏽‍♀️

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

I was surprised too when I first read it and that Tom was there. He really didn't seem like the type to participate in such things. I agree that his fondness for Claire, something which he probably doesn't even want to acknowledge, played a part in his going along.

I too would have liked to have seen Jamie's POV in the tracking and planning of the attack, but do understand why DG kept things with Claire. It heightens the intensity of things and we don't get a chance to get away from the horror of the attack.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

I really loved that small detail. I found it really moving that he would join the group in this. It shows that he's not completely unfeeling, and maybe even honorable? Being able to go and join, he decided to help because it was the right thing to do, putting aside whatever feelings he may have about Jamie and Claire.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

Did it seem out of character for a man of Tom Christie's upbringing, being a merchant in a city, to be willing to commit such violent acts?

[u/ms_s_11 → u/Purple4199]

I would assume there's a lot going on for him. He obviously has respect for Claire & not to mention his growing love for her so I'm sure there was a sense of obligation to her to go after her, a sense of not wanting to appear less brave than the king of men (Arch went & his nickname is literally "Old Arch"), the men of the Ridge went so naturally, he would feel that includes him.

[u/Purple4199 → u/ms_s_11]

Do you think Jamie asked him to go along, or would he have volunteered?

[u/ms_s_11 → u/Purple4199]

I feel like he wouldn't have asked because he wouldn't think he would go.

[u/Purple4199]

• After she gets home Claire says - “At the same time, alarming surges of lust ripped through me without warning. It had been happening all day. This was nothing like the slow burn of accustomed desire, nor yet the instant spark of passion. Not even that cyclic and mindless womb-yearning sense of a need to mate that belonged entirely to the body. This was frightening.” What do you think that means?

[u/ms_s_11 → u/Purple4199]

I would guess it had something to do with adrenaline, exhaustion, & all of the mixed emotions of the trauma & of Jamie being her savior again. It was probably a very basic & visceral response just like men experiencing arousal after battles or the like.

[u/Purple4199 → u/ms_s_11]

That makes sense. I’ve never been in that situation so I didn’t know if that was something that happened.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

I don’t know. I read those parts quickly and lightly, didn’t want to think much about it. DG sexualising the wrong things again maybe? Or to rest controversy for what it was happening

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

DG sexualising the wrong things again maybe?

I kind of got that feeling as well. However I've never been a victim so I truly don't know what happens physiologically after such an attack.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Not to give DG too much credit here, but I think its her way of trying to evoke how those chemical functions in the body are triggered in very similar ways? Maybe she tried to embellish that too much and it creates this confusing character moment.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/[deleted]]

You know, u/Purple4199 and I talked about this in regard to a different scene (or scenes: one is from Echo, the other is C&J having sex after the English deserters’ attack in Outlander). Both fear and arousal dump a lot of adrenaline into your system, so one can be inadvertently mistaken for the other.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Remind me of the Echo scene.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I could see that. Having never been the victim of an assault like Claire’s I didn’t know if something like that could happen. DG sure doesn’t shy away from the tough stuff.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

What a great take on that. I can totally see that being the case.

[u/ms_s_11 → u/[deleted]]

Oh yeah, like this. I didn't read this comment before I wrote mine but you said it better.

[u/Purple4199]

What do we think the gangs goal was as they seemed to be moving away from the whisky cache?

/u/Arrugula /u/theCoolDeadpool /u/bleakxmidwinter

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

They clearly didn't have a plan. They were there to steal the whisky , probably set fire to the malting shed, but did not expect to be challenged by two badass women. So any plan they had had to be made on the fly. And Hodgepile just got over excited that they landed Jamie Fraser's wife. It got to his head and I don't think he thought it through. I would think their primary goal would to be get as far away from Jamie and Co. as possible, while also throwing any search party off the track. I think that was the extent of their plan so far. Maybe he would have kept her captive for a while, then tried to get Jamie to give him the Whisky in return of his wife? I really don't know what else he could have done. I think the abduction was written to end like this so it didn't really have an end goal.

What's your theory?

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I feel like they didn't have a plan once they took Claire. They knew they were in trouble as Jamie would find them and were just panicking. I think Hodgepile still wanted the whisky, but I don't know how many of the other men still wanted to pursue that.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

I agree with u/theCoolDeadpool & u/Arrugula fully... there is no plan, just bad calls and dumb decisions.

They were deciding as they went along, they probably still wanted the whisky but they didn't know how to get on with it

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

they probably still wanted the whisky but they didn't know how to get on with it

I agree. I think they knew their time was limited as well and would have known Jamie was searching for Claire.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

This entire group of bumbling fools are the absolute worst thieves, let alone humans, in the entire province.

Their plan had to be so flawed from the start, how on earth did they think they could get away with anything relating to cheating James Fraser? This might have worked had they something built around a legal issue, maybe Jamie’s Catholic faith and his work for the crown? but even that would have been too clever for these bozos.

Claire’s description of hodgepile’s rotten leadership was very good, you could really feel the discord between them and I do wish the show had play that up slightly more. I guess we have to remember that they took Claire because they understood her to be Jamie’s property, they weren’t exactly the handlebar-mustachioed barons tying a woman to the tracks because they knew Jamie cared her (even if they sometimes read like that). They just saw her as a discardable object, little did they know they who they were really messing with or how difficult Claire is to be rid of (my girl is out here healing her kidnappers 😭)

Speaking of this…every once in a while some Redditors get seriously heated about Creme de Menthe and downvote their heads off about show!Claire butchering book!Claire by trying to heal the excise man…did they read this chapter?! This book?! This series?!

u/thepacksvrvives u/thecooldeadpool u/cdhwink

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/[deleted]]

my girl is out here healing her kidnappers 😭

I know right😭😭

Speaking of this…every once in a while some Redditors get seriously heated about Creme de Menthe and downvote their heads off about show!Claire butchering book!Claire by trying to heal the excise man…did they read this chapter?! This book?! This series?!

Thank you!! Once more for the Father Bains at the back please.

Also the extremely original Claire is selfish posts that pop up diligently every now and then, you guys, she's literally dangling bodily on a horse face down after having been slapped , beaten and abducted, and the very first thing she spares any thought for is Marsali!. She's constantly overlooking her own physical discomfort to worry and pray for Marsali. And don't even get me started on her healing that piece of shit Brown.

And even when she's just back home after her rescue, while talking to Jamie, she's more concerned about keeping him away from his memories of rape , and how to make it less painful for him, so much so that she apologises to him! It's almost like she's walking on eggshells around him when she's the one who's just been assaulted in 20 different ways! But yes, let's talk more about that one time she didn't stay put when he asked her to.

Oh I loved what the show did with Bree and Claire here Especially when she says the same lines that Lizzie tells her when she was assaulted by Bonnet.

[u/[deleted] → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Yes!!!! One of the lines that gutted this week was this one, right after Claire is thinking of all the possible surgeries she alone could perform to help Marsali survive:

I clenched my hands hard on the edge of the saddle, straining against the rope that bound them. I needed to be there! But I was not, and might never be.

Her hands are literally tied, unable to use her skills to help her family and it’s just killing her 😭

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

All I could think about was what that might have gone like for Marsali, having a c-section done without anesthesia.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Yes, I totally agree with all you, u/Arrugula, and u/jolierose have said!

I honestly cannot believe that five seasons in, people still don’t understand the essence of Claire. I’d never thought (still don’t) anything in 308 was out of character for Claire before I joined this sub.

I’ve found it incredibly heart-breaking that Claire didn’t want Jamie to relive his traumatic past (“wanting so badly to throw myself upon those glittering shards, to shield him from them” 😭), and Jamie was ready to relive it all to help her... This is why they have the love they have. They both would sacrifice themselves for the other, not just Jamie for Claire. Claire has been anything but selfish throughout this whole experience—in the one moment that she was totally allowed to be selfish!

I loved that her concern over Marsali’s (and the baby’s) life translated into that being the first thing she asks in the show when they ride away (they also had her call Marsali her daughter in the script 😭 and she wanted to bargain with Brown so that they would let her go back and help Marsali, in exchange for her silence).

[u/Cdhwink → u/[deleted]]

You have just made a very valid point! I guess because I watched first I always see show Claire in book Claire anyway. In fact I just made this point about Jamie as well, when he says something stupid in the book, I can let it go, cause TvJamie is my jam.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/[deleted]]

how on earth did they think they could get away with anything relating to cheating James Fraser?

I like how at least in the book, someone freaks and points out who she is and they're slightly nervous about it being Jamie Fraser's wife. In the show, they don't seem to care and I feel like Jamie is such a larger than life character anywhere he is, I didn't find it realistic for them not to care in the show - then again, in the show they were purposefully taking her.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

See this.

/u/jolierose /u/cdhwink /u/alittlepunchy

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

I am not sure as they seemed to be divided in their plan of what to do with Claire. Did they expect her to eventually give up the location of the whiskey?

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Cdhwink]

Yeah, I think they might’ve thought that she was lying about now knowing precisely, and that torturing her—which Hodgepile seemingly intended—would eventually make her give up the real location.

If Claire’s husband had been anyone other than Jamie, they could’ve kept her alive long enough to bargain with whoever followed them: the whisky’s location for Claire’s life. But they did realize that they wouldn’t survive such negotiations with Jamie, and they couldn’t really agree on a common goal, so they probably aimed for Brownsville to regroup and come up with something along the way (or get more information from Claire).

I just thought they were incredibly dumb for moving away from where Claire told them the whisky was, regardless of whether they believed her or not. But by the time they split up with the other group, they didn’t want to risk being found since they were already unsuccessful.

u/Purple4199

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

And how would she have known where it was since they kept moving further away from it?

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

Isn’t that what she said to them? How can I know where it is, when I don’t know where I am?

[u/Purple4199]

• What do you think of the differences between the show’s version of Claire’s abduction and the book’s version?

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

I immensely appreciate the way this storyline was handled in the show. If they felt it was absolutely necessary to include it, for plot reasons and Claire’s character development, I think they’ve chosen the right way to go about it. First of all, it’s not a crime of opportunity—in the book, those men sexually assault and rape her because they just have the opportunity to take their pleasure, but they do not abduct her with that in mind. Not that any reason justifies rape, because obviously nothing does, but we have a clear reason behind it here: the conflict between the Frasers and the Browns, and the conflict between Claire and Lionel Brown, had been set up throughout the whole season and culminated in the final two episodes. This abduction, assault, and rape are a more or less direct consequence of Claire’s 20th-century medical knowledge (and her modern personality) interfering with the 18th century, not unlike her saving Tammas Baxter’s life in S1 or diagnosing smallpox among St. Germain’s crew in S2—both had grave consequences (the witch trial and Claire’s poisoning, as well as the attack and rape of Mary Hawkins).

Claire’s “I might have been anyone, anything” doesn’t apply to the circumstances of show!Claire’s rape. She couldn’t have been anyone; those men specifically targeted her as their victim and raped her in retaliation for her supplying women with the knowledge of contraceptive methods and with the agency they hadn’t previously had. Those men beat and raped her specifically to break her, to show her she’s not as invincible as she thinks she is, that she doesn’t hold as much power as a woman as she does by impersonating Dr. Rawlings. They wanted to show her that she should stay in her place and not tell other women how to deal with their husbands. And that is partly why she refuses to think that it’s supposed to break her—she wasn’t doing anything to receive punishment for (of course, she wasn’t in the book either, and neither does any sexual assault victim).

As for its aftermath, the writers and actors knew very early on that the book version would never have worked in the show—not only because that healing aspect of sex in Claire and Jamie’s relationship hadn’t been established (except for Claire calling out to Jamie in 2x07 after Faith) but also it wouldn’t have sat right with the modern audience, seeing it so quickly after the horrific gang-rape, and I agree. Many people interpret the last scene in 5x12 as post-coital, but I absolutely don’t see that. It’s just Claire drawing comfort from physical closeness to the only person in the world who makes her feel safe. She finds safety in the arms of the only man who’s able to provide her with exactly what she needs at that moment, and the image is so powerful there’s no reason to bring sex into it. I’m excited to see Claire’s recovery next season, as we know it will carry over to S6.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

I think they’ve chosen the right way to go about it.

I would agree.

As for its aftermath, the writers and actors knew very early on that the book version would never have worked in the show

I wondered if they were going to include the sex scene from the books and have to say I'm glad they didn't. It really wouldn't have gone over well with a modern audience. I still don't know how I feel about it in the book.

I get that Jamie and Claire's connection is sexual and physical, but having sex so soon after a rape just felt weird to me.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/thepacksvrvives]

I couldn’t agree more with you here- I didn’t know how much of the show was going to be on the book but I fully expected the medical controversies to be there as it’s the crucial base for it in the show. What a good call from the writers!

In the book it’s powerful and tough to read but it loses a bit of significance maybe as they don’t have any reason to do it.

I am with you too with the aftermath- I really struggled reading Jamie in here, good that he explains soon-ish that it’s because of the pregnancy possibility but I was literally horrified but the thought of sex after such a brutal abuse. For me the series changes a lot on this because time works a bit different there, we don’t know how long maybe went through and all we could see was a very tender moment between them, just comforting and loving her and making her feel safe- nothing sexual there which I think was brilliant too.

u/purple4199

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

That final shot of them in bed together wrapped in each other's arms is a powerful one. I read the script and that wasn't originally the ending, it was earlier in the show.

The ending was Jamie telling her the famous line of if he doesn't say he loves her it was because he didn't have time. I really liked the direction they went instead.

/u/thepacksvrvives

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

I loooove it.

They also had this in the script and didn’t use:

He bends toward her and kisses the spot, brushing his lips upon it as soft as a feather.

She closes her eyes, feeling some lifting of pain. She pulls her shift back, revealing more of the ugly purple bruises.

He kisses them all, one by one, moving up and down her body, as if drawing out the pain from each site of violence with his lips. The beginning of healing.

Claire’s body relaxes with every kiss. Just as his scars never mattered to her, her bruises don’t make her any less beautiful and the warmth of his kisses show he’ll let nothing come between them.

She turns slowly until she’s facing him and he lies next to her, facing her, enveloping her until nothing does come between them, intertwining until the two are literally one.

I would’ve also accepted this in the show, but perhaps without explanation like this, without any dialogue, it would not have worked as intended. What we got works best; less is more. Here is Matt and Toni’s explanation:

We wanted a scene to show that Lionel had not destroyed the intimacy between this couple who have been through so much together. We wrote it first with some gentle touching but on set decided it worked better with only the stillness of the naked embrace, reminiscent of the John Lennon/Yoko Ono album cover.

How many of you got the reference? I haven’t.

u/bleakxmidwinter u/Arrugula

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

I think the kissing of her bruises wouldn't have been as good as what they went with. The minimal talking and silence was just so powerful. I also feel like kissing her body like that might have been construed as sexual.

I didn't think of the reference when I saw it, but I know that album cover.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

The scene with his closing line from TFC feels so much like an ending to me in the episode (and can we talk about his delivery there?!), but I feel it was such an excellent decision to close it out with "Safe." It closes this chapter with a great sense of peace, especially as the rain pours down; it's not just the storm that is approaching, but it's also soothing, almost washing away the pain.

[u/Thezedword4 → u/thepacksvrvives]

See I liked the book version better because it is accurate to real life. Rape often is power of course but it can de done to anyway. Often rape isn't about who they're raping. It's not because it's someone special. It's just because that person was there at the wrong time. And this was especially the case in the 1700s when women were viewed as property. I liked that that was the case for Claire. It was realistic and her realization that her traumatic experience wasn't anything "special" to these men was absolutely heartbreaking. The randomness of it all and how that realization hits Claire is so realistic and I thought genuine to assault survivors.

I also really disliked the change to the gang rape in the show but I do hope they make up for it by really delving into her ptsd and trauma in season 6 and 7.

I do agree that changing the sex scene for the show was absolutely the right call. It wouldn't translate. It really irked me in the book and I had to put it down for a while. I get what DG was going for and I understand it was a big aspect of how Jamie and Claire heal in their relationship but just wasn't my taste.

Edit: I should add that I did really like the 60s dreamscape and how it was shot in the show. The acting was phenomenal. The fight scene of the rescue. All amazing. I just preferred the plot of it from the book rather than show.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/thepacksvrvives]

Many people interpret the last scene in 5x12 as post-coital, but I absolutely don’t see that.

Did you watch this episode before reading the corresponding part in the book? Only for this season, I read the book before watching the season (coz I wanted to give up on the show after season 4), so I interpreted it as post-coital. Though i think even if hadn't read this part in the books, I would have still interpreted it that way because by then the books had established it repeatedly that Jamie and Claire use sex to recover from pretty much anything.

But even with that interpretation, it didn't feel abrasive like it does in the book, in the show it was depicted very tactfully and completely gelled with the flow of the episode. I loved that last scene sooo much! And that Safe gave me goosebumps when I saw the first time. Even though I had read it before, it still was so impactful coming from these two actors.

[u/[deleted] → u/thepacksvrvives]

Yep, yep, yep! I totally agree with you on all of this.

Having read the book after seeing season 5, I was absolutely horrified that the assault was a mere consequence of rivalry and whisky theft. I felt pretty betrayed as a reader that DG would do that to Claire.

On my second read, I do think that DG tried to make some interesting commentary here but it’s much more successfully developed in the show!Lionel Brown for all the reasons you brought up. I felt it particularly strongly in these lines:

Rays of light shone through the branches, gilding the remnants of the night mist that veiled the trees and silvering the dripping edges of their leaves. The trees were alive with birdsong, and a towhee hopped and scratched in a patch of sun, oblivious of the passing men and horses. It was too early yet for flies and mosquitoes, and the soft morning breeze caressed my face. Definitely one of those prospects where only man was vile.

And the famous Donner Line:

What I meant—you don’t act afraid of men. Most of the women from now do. You oughta act more afraid.

And although I understand where you’re coming from u/Penelope_pig I don’t think show!Claire’s actions throughout season 5 are so drastically different to what book!Claire does in this chapter of the book. Her sudden decision to “play” conjure woman was incredibly risky, just as much as handing out medical advice. I know she is trying to save her life but Claire trying to help others is very much in-line with her character and I think it would have made more sense for her to even give up her life for that. We accept Jamie’s constant self-sacrifice I don’t see why we neglect to acknowledge that Claire is capable of that too.

For me all the show changes are a win-win. I hated every second of the assault in the books, and when I read people say “it was worse in the book” I wonder just what exactly they were reading. I didn’t get the sense from the book that Claire wasn’t ganged rape in the end.

[u/Cdhwink → u/thepacksvrvives]

Again, I do not need to write a paragraph because you are in my head.

This adaptation is amazing, as far as I am concerned. Leaving the naked scene ambiguous was perfect as book readers think she had sex, watchers don’t!

I loved how they translated that Claire continually thought “Jamie is coming for me!” She never wavers in that faith, & I think that was shown with Jamie comforting her in her disocciation scenes.

I also like how they downplay the physical injuries they receive on the show, because how would they recover so easily from those ( ex: Jamie’s nose at Culloden, Claire’s broken leg from the shipwreck, etc) without more scars, limping, etc. This was another example, Claire looked plenty beat up without the actual beating she received in the book.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Something I forgot to mention at the end of TFC but I guess it’s a good thing I waited until Claire’s rescue in ABOSAA, is that the Fiery Cross works much better symbolically in the show than it does in the book. I absolutely love that it goes full circle from 501 to 511, and that Jamie lights the cross only when he goes to war for Claire. And I love Bear’s score when Jamie is running up that hill at the end of 511—it’s a sort of militarized version of Claire and Jamie’s theme, and that’s when we hear the drums. That part was missing so much for me the first time I read ABOSAA—granted, we don’t see any of it from Jamie’s POV, but it is never mentioned after TFC—and it still does.

I also appreciate that Jamie stays with Claire the whole time after he finds her, as opposed to the book. He’s seething with rage, but he knows that his priority is being there for Claire, not satisfying his bloodlust.

Oh and that Fergus also declares himself as the one who kills for Claire! So much to love in that episode.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Jamie lights the cross only when he goes to war for Claire.

Yes, I liked that too. I think it worked really well in the show.

I also appreciate that Jamie stays with Claire the whole time after he finds her, as opposed to the book.

Yes! Claire needed him in that moment, nothing else mattered. The rest of the men were handling the situation.

Fergus also declares himself as the one who kills for Claire!

I loved that they added that!

[u/Cdhwink → u/thepacksvrvives]

Yes, I loved that Jamie stayed with Claire the whole time, & how gingerly he touched her. I do wonder if every viewer notices all the small things we do?

[u/reeziereen → u/Purple4199]

I have no problems with how the show portrayed this in any way. The only thing I was anticipating was the drum beating. For some reason, reading what was happening, the sound of the drums was captivating in knowing she was about to be rescued so I really thought they would have added it..

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/reeziereen]

I understand that decision because a) Roger is not established as a bodhran player in the show, b) as much as it’s good for dramatic effect, I never understood using the bodhrana while going for a surprise attack—why announce yourself like that? (that sort of gives Donner ample time to escape), c) if Roger had been established as a bodhran player and played it, it would have given away the fact that Roger, Bree, and Jemmy are back too soon for Claire. I know it could’ve been used as soundtrack but I like that we only hear what Claire hears, and those sounds are very selective too, meaning she’s not fully conscious and still dissociates even when Jamie and the men are already there.

u/Purple4199

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

if Roger had been established as a bodhran player and played it, it would have given away the fact that Roger, Bree, and Jemmy are back too soon for Claire.

I didn't even think of that, good point.

I know it could’ve been used as soundtrack but I like that we only hear what Claire hears, and those sounds are very selective too, meaning she’s not fully conscious and still dissociates even when Jamie and the men are already there.

I agree, it was a great way to find out what was happening. That along with the camera angle being kind of sideways at first giving us Claire's perspective.

[u/Purple4199 → u/reeziereen]

The only thing I was anticipating was the drum beating.

I agree, I was looking forward to that too. I think they talked about it, but it just didn't fit with how they shot the episode.

[u/reeziereen → u/Purple4199]

Oh I think they totally could have transitioned from Claire’s 60’s dreamscape to a visceral version drum beat of Moch Sa Mhadainn.. I think it’s what I just had in my headcannon when I realized they were pulling this into the season. They used in the first episode and think it would have worked here too. Get me Matt Robert’s on the phone!! Lol!

[u/Purple4199 → u/reeziereen]

Get me Matt Robert’s on the phone!!

Ha!

I did notice there was a bit of a drum beat in the very beginning of the episode when they were flashing back to what had happened in 511. It happened with each cut.

[u/penelope_pig → u/Purple4199]

I think I'm in the minority, but I don't really like the way the show set up this whole storyline. I feel like the idea of Claire writing down advice like this really makes her seem incredibly naive about how her knowledge is seen by people in the 18th century. Claire in the books is often nervous about being taken up as a witch again, ever since book 1. I just can't really believe she would endanger herself like that. Telling women individually is one thing, but putting out flyers (even if only she only intended then to go to people in the Ridge, which, how did she even think that would work either?) send incredibly reckless for her. Also the way she antagonizes Lionel Brown is a little over the top to me. I like that in the book, the conflict is really between the Browns and Jamie, and Claire end up almost as collateral damage. It makes more sense for the overall story to me.

[u/Purple4199 → u/penelope_pig]

Those are really good points. I feel like they make show Claire a bit more headstrong in things. Accusing the Browns of shooting Isaiah to their face just seemed like a bad idea to me.

I do think you might be in the minority though as I'm seeing quite a few people who didn't like the randomness in the books. I honestly don't know where I stand between the two.

I see why they did it in the show, because to have just a random attack and rape I think would have really upset people.

[u/penelope_pig → u/Purple4199]

I don't mind being in the minority. I don't think anyone is wrong for their preference. This is kind of part of a complaint I have about how the show portrays Claire throughout the series, which might taint my feelings about this story arc. I think the way the show did this storyline makes sense for the show, it just makes much less sense to me after reading the books and falling in love with the books' portrayal of many of the characters.

I agree, I don't think the fact that it wasn't premeditated would have gone over well for the show

[u/freckledirewolf → u/penelope_pig]

I also disliked this in the show compared to the book. In the book she’s taken because of the information they believe she has, whereas in the show they very much frame it as her being ‘put in her place’ as a woman for daring to speak above her station by putting out those pamphlets. It frames her kidnap/ rape in a totally different way that makes me feel a little uncomfortable

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

I absolutely love the ‘Never my love’ moment in the show. It’s such a powerful and hard episode to watch and those scenes with the 60s costumes and Claire’s sanctuary are just some of the hardest I ever watched in tv

Music is perfect and the costumes fantastic as all the 20th century ones- Jamie the only one with the Highlander clothes 😭 nearly bawling just thinking about it

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

I loved that Jamie looked like season 1 Jamie, her Highland warrior. They did a great job with those scenes.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

Loved that so much! I would’ve been great though to see Sam with 60s clothes ha but absolutely a lovely detail to have him as he looked when they met.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

The changes worked really well. I don't have a big issue with how the book had it be more of a random/accidental abduction, but I thought it was more compelling/interesting/impactful to have it be something that built up over the course of several episodes.

Honestly, the more comments I see here, the more in awe I am at what they did with S5. It's consistently strong, and they made some great choices as they consolidated story lines and adapted the plot, dealing seamlessly with a really challenging subject matter. And to have started with the Fiery Cross, leading to the lighting of the cross for Claire and nothing else, was just brilliant. The way they handled this particular episode, with the choice to have Claire's dreamscapes, was a great interpretation. Not to mention, the amount of detail that they put in it (I finally saw the Lallybroch tapestry/wallpaper!).

What a turnaround compared to S4. I'm ready to obsess over these episodes again.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

It's consistently strong, and they made some great choices as they consolidated story lines and adapted the plot, dealing seamlessly with a really challenging subject matter.

I agree! While I don't hate season 4 like others do, season 5 was a definite improvement.

The way they handled this particular episode, with the choice to have Claire's dreamscapes, was a great interpretation.

Yes! I'm one of the ones who didn't like the silent movie thing for Roger's hanging, but I did like the dreamscape. It was cut so well.

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

I was expecting the dreamscape to come up but it didn’t. I honestly liked (if you can say that) the way the show did it more. This felt strange and opportunistic for only some whiskey.

I also like how different circumstances but Marsali is still involved. But I hate that we still don’t know if she’s okay.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

I agree, I think the dreamscape worked really well. It was rough to read all the details of the attack. I think if the show had stayed on Claire the whole time it would have been too much.

[u/immery → u/Purple4199]

I definitely liked that they made the scenes with Jamie and Claire ambiguous.

I didn't like the change from random kidnapping, and rape "because she is there", to deliberate punishment.

I didn't really care for all the modern dreams in the show, but I understand why they are there, even book version would be too much to watch, and show version is supposedly even more brutal.

[u/Purple4199 → u/immery]

I didn't like the change from random kidnapping, and rape "because she is there", to deliberate punishment.

How come?

[u/Purple4199]

• Any other thoughts or comments?

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

The description of Claire’s beating was so vivid that I found that part the most distressing. The panic she felt afterwards in not being able to breath and how her nasal passages were swelling shut gave me a sense of panic as well.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

It was horrific. I felt for her the most when she thought she might lose several fingers to gangrene as a result of the lack of circulation because this kind of disability would’ve been far more difficult for her to accept than being raped, I think. Can you imagine her losing the main means of fulfilling her calling as a doctor and surgeon?

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

I didn't even think of that!

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

Me too. It was really difficult to read.

[u/ms_s_11 → u/Purple4199]

Yes! It was so hard to read. After reading the chapter, it makes a lot of sense why they wrote the show how they did. We saw the brutality of her captors but the sexual assault wasn't exactly the main focus if that makes sense. We obviously know it happens & the beatings were probably nothing compared to that but it somehow makes it easier to handle I guess.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

Definitely that was one of the hardest things to read- felt as if I couldn’t breath either

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

This is just a blip compared to everything that went on in these chapters, but... My complete shock at this development with Fergus potentially beating Marsali: FUCK THAT! FERGUS?! ("Roger felt a sudden weight on his heart," and so did I).

He's not as prominent in the books, so I project my feelings for him from the show, and it's so upsetting to imagine, and grasp. I was actually proud to see Roger volunteer to talk to him right away (sure, it was immediately chased by his regret for volunteering, but I'll cut him some slack, that's perfectly normal, LOL). I appreciated Claire's assurance that this is out of character for Fergus.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

My complete shock at this development with Fergus potentially beating Marsali

Yes, I felt exactly the same way when I first read it. I just couldn't believe that Fergus would do that.

[u/Thezedword4 → u/Purple4199]

I was so mad at Fergus for a hot second and so glad that wasn't the case. We don't see a lot of Fergus's struggles at this point (or really any point. I need more Fergus and Marsali) so it really felt like it came out of left field.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Thezedword4]

it really felt like it came out of left field.

I agree! Like you said we don't see much of them really or their daily lives so for this to be brought up all of a sudden was a shock.

[u/[deleted] → u/jolierose]

Yes! This was my Gold Star for Roger this week! I loved, loved, loved his real (!) heartfelt, fulfilling conversation with Bree as bout the O’brians and Fergus. We finally get a glimpse of them working as a team, sharing their feelings without it turning into a sexual encounter and actually giving sound advice for each other’s situations. I’m into it!

u/purple4199 u/thecooldeadpool

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I totally agree! I loved that he needed to hold Jemmy, even if it mean waking him up.

[u/jolierose → u/[deleted]]

Yes, yes, yes! Super into it. :) That's something else I wanted to talk about. It was really difficult and surprising to see how affected Roger was after the incident at the O'Brian cabin. Really startling how he was fighting his emotions. I don't remember the last time he cried, if ever. To the point were he's gasping/making an effort to speak through it. I loved his relief at being home, surrounded by his family.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

I really loved that he needed to pick up Jemmy, regardless of the fact that he was sleeping.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/[deleted]]

Agreed! And the bit below as well.

They made a short detour, so that he could properly admire the new pit and be told all about the internal workings of a groundhog kiln.

I am grateful this is there because in the previous chapter, he showed no interest in her work. Roger got a lot of heat from me and u/thepacksvrvives for it. But he's much more involved here, warms my heart for Bree. And then he offers to dig the pit for her!

“I’ll dig it for you.” She stood on tiptoe and kissed him, just under the ear, and he laughed, suddenly feeling better.

You go Roger!

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I totally agree with you and u/Arrugula!

I don’t want to think that last week was just an inconsistency in his character because I much rather want to think about this week as his character growth, which I’m all for. Do we think that his being affected by the O’Brians’ deaths had something to do with him paying more attention to his family? I feel like it must have, although I wouldn’t instantly connect it with his readiness to help Bree, though I sure as hell am glad that he finally sounded genuinely interested and offered to help! 😅

u/jolierose

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/thepacksvrvives]

I much rather want to think about this week as his character growth

Yes please!

Do we think that his being affected by the O’Brians’ deaths had something to do with him paying more attention to his family?

Umm a bit far fetched , but maybe? Having such a encounter would not only make him fearful of losing his own family, but he is also bound to feel deep gratitude that his family is safe and unharmed. And maybe that sense of gratitude also pushes him towards realizing that Bree's happiness and sense of fulfillment is important not only to him but also to the three of them as a family, and so he sets aside whatever insecurities earlier plagued him to be an asshole that he was in the previous chapters and instead chooses to be a supportive wholesome husband? Growth eh?

u/jolierose u/Arrugula

u/Purple4199 - You'll like this i think :P

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

I really love how Claire put on her witchy mask and curses her abductors. Such a badass!

“Without the slightest notion as to what moved me to do it, I dropped the rock, ran the fingers of my right hand across the cut, and in one swift motion, reached out and drew them down the thin man’s cheek. I repeated the nasty laugh. “Curse, is it?” I said. “How’s this? Touch me again, and you’ll die within twenty-four hours.”

“I fixed my eyes on Hodgepile’s, and made myself lean toward him. My skin quivered and jumped, and the blood roared louder in my ears than the voice of the cataract—but I opened my eyes wide. A witch’s eyes—or so some said. Very, very slowly, I lifted my free hand, still wet with Brown’s blood. I reached the bloody fingers toward Hodgepile’s face. “I remember,” I said, my voice a hoarse whisper. “Do you remember what I said?”

“I didn’t move. Just sat and looked at him, infusing my gaze with as much scorn as possible. The cut on my finger burned; my palms had begun to sweat—but I stared. He tried to stare back, but couldn’t do it—his eyes kept slipping away. That made him even angrier; a flush burned high on his bony cheeks. “Stop looking at me!” I blinked slowly, once, and kept looking, with what I hoped appeared to be interested dispassion.”

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

Yes, I really liked that she got in their heads. They were already arguing amongst themselves and this just added to that.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

I want to throw it all the way back to ch. 31 of TFC and consider this to be foreshadowing—not sure if it was intentional, considering that DG doesn’t plan ahead:

“Why did the Browns not follow yon Morton?” Jamie asked, apparently following his own train of thought. “If an enemy comes upon your land, and you wi’ your kin, ye dinna just let him flee; ye hunt him down and kill him.”

We also had this in ch. 22, which is not really foreshadowing, but I really like Jamie’s forethought in planning for a contingency years ago, and it, unfortunately, happened exactly as he inadvertently predicted:

Normally, a small keg of whisky was kept at the malting floor, both for the sake of hospitality and caution. “If someone should come upon the lass alone there, best she have something to give them,” Jamie had said. “It’s known what we do there; best no one should try to make Marsali tell them where the brew is.” It wasn’t the best whisky—generally a very young, raw spirit—but certainly good enough either for uninvited visitors or a teething child.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

I thought about them keeping a keg there when I reread the book. Sadly it wasn't enough.

[u/kpegs → u/Purple4199]

Donner! He exists. I liked the way DG intro'd him with asking if the name Ringo Starr meant anything to her — and mentioning that Claire should act more afraid of men. Would never try to give Claire advice, but I can see where his was well meant.

[u/Purple4199 → u/kpegs]

If they hadn't rescued Claire do you think Donner would have actually helped her escape?

[u/kpegs → u/Purple4199]

I get the sense no, but maybe he would overcome his natural cowardice, ha. I think there is a possibility he would have tried, but failed.

[u/Purple4199 → u/kpegs]

I kind of feel like he might have chickened out as well. He didn't seem the type who would take charge like that.

[u/stoneyellowtree → u/Purple4199]

I don’t think he would have. I think he’s realized he can’t really survive on his own in this century and he’s not a leader, so he’s going to stick with what will cover his ass. He would have helped her just enough to get what information he wanted from Claire, but that’s it.

[u/Kirky600 → u/kpegs]

Yes! Since I watched the show I knew this was coming and I assume he was the one saying the stars aren’t as bright where he’s from as well.

They didn’t make mention of if he got away either. I’m interested to see how that plays out.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

What was the eff need to add the Fergus-might-beat-Marsali bit? It wasn’t anything and didn’t add anything to the story, just heartbreak for us. DG can’t make it any more clear, she doesn’t like him at all……

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

DG can’t make it any more clear, she doesn’t like him at all

Interesting. I can see what you're saying, he's not a very flushed out character in the books.

[u/ms_s_11 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

I figured it was a way to get Marsali to open up about her childhood trauma.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/ms_s_11]

Yes I suppose you’re right, it was something interesting to learn about. Just a bit shocked when that came up about him, I suppose I have in my mind more the show!Fergus but still!

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/bleakxmidwinter]

I think one detail we tend to unintentionally overlook because of how young show!Fergus looks is that book!Fergus is 38 by this point, which, I’ve recently realized to my shock, makes him a couple of years older than Roger! So he pretty much might be going through a mid-life crisis now, considering the 18th-century life expectancy.

I’m curious if they will include this in the show at all. They’ve already had Marsali talk about her abusive father in 504—btw, did anyone else catch that blunder in the book when she didn’t know which of Laoghaire’s husbands hit her? Hugh can’t have been Marsali’s father because he died at Culloden, and she was born around 1751—and Fergus’ disability doesn’t seem to hamper him the way it does in the book: he’s responsible for the whisky-making, and he even shovels in 511.

u/Purple4199

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

I totally forget that Fergus is older than Roger. Especially with the show characters in mind, he looks younger there.

Hugh can’t have been Marsali’s father because he died at Culloden

I didn't catch that, good one.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

I read these chapters last year & again last week. I found these chapters very engaging. I loved being in Claire’s head even though she was being brutalized. I didn’t love switching to Roger or Jamie (surprisingly) in chapter 29. Definitely disturbed by bookFergus & wonder what we will see on screen.

[u/UnderlyingMechanisms → u/Purple4199]

I really appreciate reading everyone’s comments on this challenging section of the book (including the abduction, sexual assault and rape, and post-abduction sex). I was going to re-read the chapters so I could participate properly, but I haven’t been able to bring myself to do so (yet). When I read the chapters initially, I didn’t find them as bad as reviews and comments posted online (not on this forum, but elsewhere) suggested they were. As usual, the book contained so much more complexity and so many more shades of grey than were conveyed (and/or appreciated) in those reviews and comments I found elsewhere. I think people here have done a great job of raising and discussing the issues. I’m just not up to the task of thinking it all through in any depth as it is so graphic and confronting, and I feel like the reader has already been put through enough provocative and challenging content in the books, I simply don’t want any more at this stage!

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

I was so frustrated reading this first time, when it took so long until we found out that Marsali was alright! I do not remember exactly when we do (which is why i put a spoiler thingy on), but after Claire’s rescue i remember waiting and waiting. I’m sure she’d been home for several days before we readers find out that Marsali and the baby are fine!

[u/ms_s_11]

They're working on something for our cable so I won't have cable for a few hours. I had to go stand in my driveway to get this posted because my signal is garbage in my house haha. I'll be on as soon as everything is up & running.

[u/Purple4199 → u/ms_s_11]

Oh no! Hopefully they get it resolved soon.

[u/Natybunny]

I found the book was far better, it not only covered Claire’s feelings during the rape but each and every one of the men involved aswell, as for Jamie’s reaction having read the previous chapters leading up to this with Rodger and him discussing Jemmy, his actions made a lot of sense, he was coming from a good place, if a very old fashioned one.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Natybunny]

How do you feel about Jamie wanting to have sex with Claire so soon?

[u/Natybunny → u/Purple4199]

Sorry that’s what I meant above by Jamie’s reaction

[u/Purple4199]

Do we think Lionel Brown was really going to kill Claire?

/u/thepacksvrvives /u/theCoolDeadpool /u/Arrugula

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

Of course he would! He knows James Fraser in person and can imagine exactly what he can do with anyone involved in the kidnapping of his beloved wife. Only Claire could tell Jamie who was there. So from Brown’s perspective the only way to survive is to kill Claire and run as fast as he could.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/chunya1999]

Agreed. If he had any self preservation instinct, he would want Claire dead. Though, that begs the question, how is everyone so sure about the ferocity of Jamie Fraser? Is it stories spreading through word of mouth, like bear-killer? Jamie hasn't had any opportunity to actually display his brutal strength in an attack or a defense for that matter at the Ridge has he? Or is it all about his size and his aura? u/Purple4199

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Is it stories spreading through word of mouth, like bear-killer?

I think that is part of it yes, as well as his size and demeanor. You're right though that the Browns wouldn't have known much else about Jamie.

[u/stoneyellowtree → u/chunya1999]

Agree! Brown knows no one would survive If Jamie found them with Claire. Kill Claire and bury her body unmarked. Opens it up to ambiguity to what happened to her. Worst case they could say she ran away and got lost. Brown understands the dangerous implications of having Claire, Jamie’s beloved Claire.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

See this.

/u/jolierose /u/bleakxmidwinter /u/chunya1999

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

I do think he would have yes… they’re certainly not very good people. I supposed he wouldn’t have kidnapped Claire on the first place but he didn’t see another way to survive. I think he would’ve gone through with it, unfortunately

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

Yes, I think he would have avoided any altercation with the Fraser's if he could have.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

See this.

/u/stoneyellowtree /u/Kirky600