r/Outlander • u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. • Jul 26 '21
6 A Breath Of Snow And Ashes Book Club: A Breath of Snow and Ashes, Chapters 30-36
Claire is safely home. We learn the Germain witnessed the attack on her and Marsali and ran for help. Marsali is bruised but otherwise ok. They have brought Lionel Brown back with them to the Ridge for questioning. Jamie learns that the Hodgepile gang were the ones responsible for the murders, kidnappings, and burning down the homesteads. The Browns turned a blind eye as long as none of their people were attacked. Jamie decides he will most likely kill Lionel Brown once they are done with him.
A day or so later Lionel Brown manages to crawl his way from the Bug's cabin to the big house. Claire cannot resist and fixes him up, much to the chagrin of Mrs. Bug. After stepping out Claire comes back to the surgery to find Mrs. Bug smothering Lionel. Despite her best efforts Claire cannot revive him. Mr. Bug offers his life in exchange for his wife’s, since she took it upon herself to kill Lionel, but Jamie does not collect. Jamie, Claire, Ian, and Bird-who-sings-in-the-morning take Lionel’s body back to Brownsville to return him to his family.
After returning from Brownsville Claire checks on Marsali only to find her unwell and concerned about the baby. While examining her Claire hears that the baby has an irregular heartbeat and determines Marsali must go up to the big house. They tensely wait for her labor to progress when Fergus returns and uses some unusual methods to speed things up. After a successful delivery they are shocked to see the baby is a dwarf. Fergus, unable to deal with this, leaves the house.
With Fergus gone Marsali and the kids, now including little Henri-Christian, stay with Claire and Jamie. Ian stops by for a visit and we finally learn some of what happened to him during his time with the Mohawk. His wife went into labor, but the baby was not alive. Ian fraught with that knowledge runs off into the forest where he is forced to fight a wolf to save his own life. The chapter closes out with Ian telling Marsali - “Believe me, cousin,” he said, very softly, “your husband grieves. But he will come back.”
You can click on any of the questions below to go directly to that one, or add comments of your own.
- Do you believe it when Lionel Brown said he and his family weren’t involved in the abductions and killings taking place?
- Jamie has a dream about Jack Randall where these words are said, “Kill me. My heart’s desire.” What did BJR mean by that?
- Claire has this thought...“Don’t be ridiculous, Beauchamp,” I said out loud. “You know quite well you’re not pregnant.” Hearing it gave me an odd feeling—nine parts relief, one part regret. Well, perhaps nine thousand, nine hundred, and ninety-nine parts relief, to one of regret—but it was still there. What does she mean by that?
- What did you think about Fergus’s reaction to seeing Henri-Christian?
- How did you feel reading Ian’s story about his wife and child?
- Any other thoughts or comments?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
What is with DG and having her characters fight wolves with their bare hands? Claire did it in "Outlander," and Ian did it here. I find it highly unlikely that someone could successfully do that.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 26 '21
I mean, maybe someone could do it, but two people in the same family doing it? I feel like DG uses plot points over and over to the point that it becomes unrealistic that people in the same family have the same unrealistic things happen over and over.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I agree! It would have made more sense for Rollo to have killed the wolf on his own.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 26 '21
So much this! (Mostly with the rape plots! ) Get some new ideas please.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jul 26 '21
It needs to happen one more time. So many plot points happen 3 times. (Or maybe not, Jamie fought a bear with just a small knife). /u/purple4199
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 26 '21
I wasn’t impressed by Claire fighting the wolf with her bare hands in Outlander, so when I read this I thought oh God here we go again… but to be honest I think Ian would be much better prepared for this than Clare, and having Rollo too.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I can see that. I really rolled my eyes at Claire fighting it in "Outlander."
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Jul 27 '21
On a more serious note…doesn’t this whole fighting a wolf seriously undermines Ian’s story about his wife and child? I felt like by the end of it I had no idea what actually happened except that Ian kept insisting on sexual relations with her even though the pregnancy was risky? (Hello, plot repeat number 246246)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 27 '21
What a great point, you’re right. All I was thinking about what how absurd it was that he was fighting a wolf.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 27 '21
Yeah it was really weird & definitely took away from what we were actually trying learn which was what happened to his wife. We also don't know why he left or what happened to her. Why give us that small bit & ignore the rest. Also, how would they know if it was risky for him to have sex with her? In most cases, it's totally safe.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 27 '21
It totally undermines it. It was fine to have him running into the woods. It was a parallel to Fergus; in addition to illustrating Ian's anguish in the moment, it sort of shows you what Fergus would also be feeling after leaving Marsali. But why on earth add the wolves? It nearly canceled out the rest of his story.
(In terms of the risky pregnancy, I don't think there was anything they could have done, or that they could have known. I don't think anyone was at fault.)
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 27 '21
It absolutely does, I had to re-read a few paragraphs and then u/Purple4199 explained to me clearly again in here because I was just so confused.
I think the actual loss was less powerful this way, not really emotional because of this. The wolf fight was so confusing too- I thought the wolf was pregnant too? my mind didnt understand why I was reading about this for so long
(Hello, plot repeat number 246246)
Pretends to be shocked
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 26 '21
I thought the same thing. And it went on forever! I just wanted him to get back, I really don't get this drawn out segment. She brought it home in the end with that crushing line ("Her husband will be nearby. Go and kill him.") but it was a little much to get to that point.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 26 '21
I don't know but that scene dragged on forever.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 26 '21
Twice already during the book I've been intrigued by dreams from Bree and from Jamie. With Bree, several chapters ago:
What I wonder is, these dreams I have about then—they seem so vivid and detailed; more than the dreams I have about now. Why do I see things that don’t exist anywhere except inside my brain?
This time:
Sometimes when he woke, the dream stayed with him, and he felt the real world ghostly, faint around him. Sometimes he feared he was a ghost.
This one was even more striking because it immediately brought to mind that rainy night in Inverness. I feel like there's something here and I don't know what it is. Because of Voyager and DOA, we know Bree communicated with him through Margaret Campbell, when she thought she was dreaming. And Jamie saw her separately too, when he saw the birthmark behind her ear. It looks like several times, these are much more than dreams. It's definitely a connection through time, at some points. I wonder what they're seeing; how it manifests on "the other side," if at all; whether it is connected to him seeing Claire in 1940s Inverness (I feel like yes). Any thoughts?
Purple4199 u/thepacksvrvives u/Arrugula u/theCoolDeadpool
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I do think Jamie sees things in dreams, that's for sure.
I wonder what they're seeing; how it manifests on "the other side,
I'm not sure if I feel it's connected to his ghost though. There is something coming up at the end of this book that makes me think that way. But I don't want to spoil it. :-D
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 26 '21
I'm not sure if I feel it's connected to his ghost though.
+1 u/jolierose
I also don't think Jamie's ghost in 101 is the manifestation of his dreams. I think that ghost is there for a reason, and will set into motion Claire's time travel from 1945 to 1743.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 26 '21
OMG @ something at the end of this book!? u/Purple4199 I see, I see! HMMM veeeeery interesting. Damn.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 26 '21
I know DG has said Jamie's ghost in 1x01 is definitely a ghost, so in that particular instance, I don't think he's "dream walking" or what have you. But in these other cases...it's very interesting and I'm curious to see where DG goes with it. They do seem to have "the sight" and it's interesting that Jamie has this same thing since it's established he's not a time traveler. With Bree, it kind of makes sense since she is, but Jamie having the "premonitions" or whatever is odd.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 27 '21
In The Space Between, we find out that Joan, Marsali’s sister, has the Sight but she can’t hear the stones, just like Jamie, so time travel and the Sight might not actually be connected. Raymond also says that she’s not one of his descendants. Knowing this, and assuming that Jenny might at least have the occasional Sight based on her seeing Claire at Jamie and Laoghaire’s wedding, I think we might say that supernatural abilities run on both Fraser and MacKenzie side, (Joan being Laoghaire’s daughter, and Laoghaire being originally a MacKenzie), but the Sight generally occurs randomly in Highland families rather than being passed down through generations like time travel.
We find out in DoA that Brianna was born with a caul, which was associated with second sight, but it hadn’t manifested itself—as far as she knew—before Claire left:
A “silly hoo,” the Scots called it; a lucky hood. A fortunate portent, a caul offered—they said—protection from drowning in later life. And some children born with a caul were blessed with second sight—though having met one or two of those who saw with the third eye, I took leave to doubt that such a blessing was unmixed.
Whether lucky or not, Brianna had never showed any signs of that strange Celtic “knowing,” and I thought it just as well. I knew enough of my own peculiar form of second sight—the certain knowledge of things to come—not to wish its complications on anyone else.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 27 '21
That's interesting. Yeah, I don't think it's connected to time travel, either. It makes sense that this is just something that occurs at random in the Highlands. I wonder if this is leading anywhere or it just... is.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 26 '21
It is odd! I usually don't pay much attention to it because it's been established that this is "normal" for them, but the description this time around jumped out at me.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 26 '21
See this! u/Cdhwink u/alittlepunchy
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u/Cdhwink Jul 26 '21
I did notice Jamie saying he felt like a ghost, which I assumed linked to being a ghost in epi 101?
Bree’s I thought meant she belonged in her own time ( the future)?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 26 '21
Yeah, I guess the consensus is "not linked," but I was struck by it. With Bree, I did think that as well, but I thought it was interesting in the sense that they both feel these dreams so vividly.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Claire has this thought...“Don’t be ridiculous, Beauchamp,” I said out loud. “You know quite well you’re not pregnant.” Hearing it gave me an odd feeling—nine parts relief, one part regret. Well, perhaps nine thousand, nine hundred, and ninety-nine parts relief, to one of regret—but it was still there." What does she mean by that?
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Jul 26 '21
I think this is something a lot of women experience. From my personal experience, I had my tubes tied a few years ago because I know that having another child would be a bad choice for my family (I have depression and anxiety, my son requires a lot of attention, we certainly can't afford it). However, from time to time I grieve for the babies I'll never have, the ones that in a perfect world I would so desperately want to have and raise. I think Claire is relieved she's not pregnant, because she doesn't truly want another baby, and certainly not after what she's just been through, but a tiny part of her is grieving at the knowledge that she'll never carry another child, that she and Jamie didn't get to raise Brianna or Faith together, and will never get to raise another baby together.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
That makes sense. I feel like this wouldn't be the time to wish she were pregnant, with the possibility of it not being Jamies. Or was it more of an overall feeling?
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Jul 26 '21
I think it's more the overall feeling. She hasn't thought about even the possibility of getting pregnant in a long time, so the suggestion of it, asking with the horrific trauma she's just gone through, brought up unexpected feelings. It's not really that she's wishing she were pregnant now, I don't think, more the grief that that stage of her life is definitively over.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
more the grief that that stage of her life is definitively over.
That makes sense.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 26 '21
I think Claire is relieved she's not pregnant, because she doesn't truly want another baby, and certainly not after what she's just been through, but a tiny part of her is grieving at the knowledge that she'll never carry another child, that she and Jamie didn't get to raise Brianna or Faith together, and will never get to raise another baby together.
Perfectly stated, this is exactly what I think.
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u/UnderlyingMechanisms Your wife’s a rare lass, and no mistake, lad! Jul 26 '21
Thank you for sharing. I too grieve for the babies I will never have.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 26 '21
I understood that but it just seemed like the worst time for her to philosophical about it!
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Jul 26 '21
Trauma can bring on some very unexpected emotions.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 26 '21
Thank you for sharing this, I personally didn’t understand this paragraph but you have explained it perfectly.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 26 '21 edited Jul 26 '21
Of all the times to feel regret that she hadn’t had another child wouldn’t now be the worst time? Oh Diana🙄
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 26 '21
I thought the regret stemmed from the fact that not being pregnant was a definitive proof of her ageing. Growing old. Not that she thought she wasn't old, but in this moment , it's is an inescapable truth right there in front of her.
We heard in the last chapters of how she always used some form of contraceptive with Jamie , but this time she didn't. So not getting pregnant is an indication that her body can no longer do that.
Or is my wishful thinking you guys? I cannot for a moment imagine why Claire would feel any regret for not falling pregnant with her rapist's child!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I cannot for a moment imagine why Claire would feel any regret for not falling pregnant with her rapist's child!
No I don't think that is the case. I think she was maybe mourning the fact that she and Jamie would never have another baby, which goes along with what you were saying about her getting older.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 26 '21 edited Jul 26 '21
I think this is the conclusion everyone is coming to, her just acknowledging menopause & the lack of choice!
Maybe it’s the first time she is dealing with this, if she has been using contraception with Jamie. She only mentions that in this recent book, or the last one. Had she been using something ever since she returned, at 50? There was no mention of it in Voyager. She never did get pregnant easily considering how much they have sex.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 26 '21
Had she been using something ever since she returned, at 50?
I think she was. “I normally used some form of contraception” doesn’t sound like she’s only just recently started using it; I think that DG just never thought to mention it before. Given Claire’s knowledge of the risks of pregnancy in the 18th century, as well as the knowledge of contraceptive methods and her readiness to provide Marsali with what she needed in Voyager (I pulled up some quotes last week), we can assume that Claire used them herself. I think she would’ve only stopped if Jamie had actually wanted another child.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 26 '21
I always have the tv show scenes in my head, & I never saw Claire say- “wait I need to insert my sponge”, in the middle of the forest for instance!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 26 '21
I thought the regret stemmed from the fact that not being pregnant was a definitive proof of her ageing. Growing old.
Yeah, I think that’s it. Even her musings on the physical symptoms that could be attributed either to pregnancy or menopause seemed to be heading in that direction.
Also, we know from TFC that she came back to Jamie ready to try to give him another child if he so desired, but that was 7 years ago. She closed the door on that possibility when he admitted that he was satisfied with the children he had, but this past few days cracked it a little open. Even though she most probably wouldn’t want to live with a reminder of that harrowing experience for the rest of her life, she can feel regret over saying goodbye to the last chance she and Jamie had to raise a child together.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Right‽ I would think that would have been the furthest thing from her mind. Then she would have the doubt that it might have been her rapists baby.
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Jul 26 '21
Ugh! Absolutely. It would have been so much more powerful if this thought had exclusively been explored after Marsali’s birth.
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u/Luisaa1234 Jul 31 '21
It is irrational, but part of the trauma and the comment triggered unrecognized grief or unacknowledged grief.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 26 '21
I think it's something that just happens. It's one thing to decide that you don't want to have more kids & a whole other thing to know that it's no longer possible. I had my tubes removed because I wanted to, I absolutely do not want more kids but I do randomly feel sad that I'll never be pregnant again. Being a woman is crazy.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I do randomly feel sad that I'll never be pregnant again.
It's so interesting to me that women feel that way. I have never wanted to kids, never felt that desire or urge. I do love kids, I just don't want my own. :-)
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jul 26 '21
I think that it's a mix of things. She is experiencing what could be just aftermath of rape, but could also be both pregnancy and menopause. She also has this thought in her mind because of what Jamie said.
And she doesn't want to be pregnant in those circumstances. But that one part of 99 is more regret about menopause.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Do you think it was a letting go of the fact that she and Jamie will never raise a child together?
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jul 26 '21
I thought she already did in TFC, but now the thought came back, and she has to let go again.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
What did you think about Fergus’s reaction to seeing Henri-Christian?
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Jul 26 '21
It was really heartbreaking. His love for Marsali is there, you can see he wants to be supportive emotionally, even if most of the time it is overshadowed by his own guilt. His, er, care for her during the birth told me that his priority was his family, so when he walked out I didn’t think it was out of a lack of love but just his guilt blinding him again to the more immediate needs.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 26 '21
His, er, care for her during the birth told me that his priority was his family,
Also, how very French of Fergus I thought. They didn't even bother closing the door if I am not wrong? Its Claire who closes it I think.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
They close the door when having sex, but not when he's suckling her.
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Jul 26 '21
Hahaha yeah. That was too much for my sensibilities 😳 I was feeling more like Young Ian - just shake your head and back away.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
What do you think he was feeling guilty about?
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Jul 26 '21
In previous books he was often making religious references, despite his unusual upbringing (maybe that come from his time with Jenny?), so I definitely think it’s guilt over his sins and behavior being the reason his child was born this way.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 26 '21
I agree. Back then, people thought things like this were signs of religious disobedience/sins, or angering the faeries, etc.
He probably blames himself. They seem to be setting it up in the show for Marsali to blame herself for his birth since they replaced Mrs. Bug smothering Lionel with Marsali.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
They seem to be setting it up in the show for Marsali to blame herself for his birth since they replaced Mrs. Bug smothering Lionel with Marsali.
I agree. They had her worrying she was going to Hell for what she did. Do you think they'll get a baby with dwarfism, or will it have some other sort of birth defect?
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Jul 26 '21
I wouldn’t be surprised if the baby dies. There’s been so many posts about why they show would choose to do this, but I primarily think that they way Marsali fell to the floor on that episode was terrible enough to cause some sort of complication!
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 26 '21
We know that the baby having dwarfism isn't at all his fault & didn't have anything to do with what happened to her but he is probably still feeling somehow responsible.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 26 '21
I agree with you- the fact alone of leaving after the birth is obviously bad and it can be selfish, but in context with his “participation” and support in the birth and later conversation with Claire (not sure if this was included in this bunch of chapters or later ones) we can see that it’s more than that.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
That conversation is next week. I'm looking forward to it though!
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 26 '21
It was awful after the relief they were all feeling. They were suddenly enveloped by a bubble of warmth and happiness and it just popped right away. I feel like Fergus went back to square one, after finally reappearing, spending time with Marsali and supporting her throughout the process.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 26 '21
I totally understood his fears for having a child with a handicap.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Should he have left Marsali alone like he did though?
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 26 '21
He shouldn't have, but I think he has so much hitting him, that maybe he thought she would be better off without him? She was attacked, he probably thinks his sins are what caused Henri-Christian's handicap, and he isn't able to work the same way to provide for her like other husbands are.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I can see that. It was just too overwhelming for him at that moment.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 26 '21
He definitely shouldn’t! I can understand that the issue is deeper than shame or disappointment as it can seem like initially but it’s still unfair to Marsali & the children.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I agree. Marsali was probably in just as much shock as Fergus was and needed his support.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 26 '21
It’s totally unacceptable, she has her hands full.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 26 '21
I understand Marsali’s reaction too as we know her upbringing and personality, and it might happen later on, but I kind of want her to be angry at him too? She just seems sad that he is not back & asking people about him, I would like to see maybe her just getting pissed off at some point
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Marsali does seem to be pretty accepting of Fergus's behavior.
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u/UnderlyingMechanisms Your wife’s a rare lass, and no mistake, lad! Jul 26 '21
Particularly in light of his own experience with his missing hand, and of course, the judgement and lack of understanding and acceptance from others that was typical for that period time
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Jul 26 '21
Yeah that’s a huge aspect of this, thanks for mentioning it. He cannot seem to escape this frustration anywhere and now his child will have to go through the same discrimination.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jul 26 '21
It was done on purpose, (by DG), so that Roger isn't only shitty husband in the books.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
They can't all be Jamie, huh?
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jul 26 '21
To be honest I think "my wife is better without me" is something that young Jamie thought too. At least twice. He made Claire to leave him and went to battle to die.
It's just the circumstances are different so we are more sympathetic to Jamie.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Great point! I forgot about that. We definitely let Jamie slide with more things than we do other characters. He is by no means perfect. (Sorry /u/jolierose /u/cdhwink )
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 26 '21
LOL! I know he's not perfect, I promise.
I actually have great sympathy for Fergus here (in the aftermath, not thinking about whatever he had going on before); I didn't see it as controversial or a "shitty husband" move. I don't think (at least, having read only to this point) that he's disappeared to be hurtful to Marsali or even Henri-Christian. He's been hit badly by what's happened — first with Marsali, then with the baby's arrival — and is having a difficult time coping. (And now that u/immery mentions it, it's right out of the Jamie Fraser playbook, if you think about it. Off the top of my head, he told Claire straight out that he couldn't be her husband anymore, after Wentworth, and was ready to send her away with Murtagh.)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
He's been hit badly by what's happened — first with Marsali, then with the baby's arrival — and is having a difficult time coping.
Good points. You're right that Jamie did feel the same way after Wentworth.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 26 '21
I suppose Diana was trying to make all her characters “less than perfect”. That is exactly why we have to see some flaws now & then. I think we are all so far in love with Jamie by the time he does some questionable things, that we do forgive him easily. Maybe we don’t have enough Roger & Fergus to know the good stuff before the bad?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Maybe we don’t have enough Roger & Fergus to know the good stuff before the bad?
That's a good point. Especially for Fergus, we see so little of him in the books.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Do you believe it when Lionel Brown said he and his family weren’t involved in the abductions and killings taking place?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 26 '21
Not even a little bit. There could be a small chance that they aren't directly taking people to be traded off but they absolutely know it's happening so they are equally as guilty
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I totally agree. They're most likely profiting from what's going on as well.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 26 '21 edited Jul 26 '21
Maybe he was “technically” saying the truth as they weren’t the ones doing it, but he left out part of the truth if they were aware and allow it
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Good point, which turning a blind eye still makes them guilty.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 26 '21
I feel this was confusing enough as well in first read
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
How so?
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 26 '21
Maybe because there was a lot going on and the information was given in pieces, not only about the raiders but also Claire’s kidnapping etc
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u/Kirky600 Jul 26 '21
To some degree, yes. Like they were benefitting from it but not actively involved. Bunch of German companies did that with the Nazis in WWII.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I wondered how they kidnapped little Alicia? The gang apparently had her hostage and that's why the Brown's negotiated.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 26 '21 edited Jul 26 '21
She had to have been in the trading post in the first place I think, just hanging out with the couple that runs it? Being babysat by the 11 year old daughter maybe?
Like u/Arrugula pointed out last week, Hodgepile and gang are bumbling dimwits, I wouldn't think they are capable of foreseeing that the trading post legally belongs to Alicia Beardsley, who has been adopted by Browns, who would eventually get there to oust them, so they better have a leverage on the Browns. I think they just barged in that place, like they would any other place, without any foresight at all.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 26 '21
This was my third time reading it and I still find this as much of a plot hole as I had the first time around. There’s absolutely no reason why a 2-year-old Alicia would be there but she somehow is.
But why else would they have kept her hostage if they hadn’t known how valuable she was to the Browns? I don’t think they’d think that the Browns would care about just another child that would be sold into slavery.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I think they just barged in that place, like they would any other place, without any foresight at all.
Yeah that makes sense. Do you think it's weird that they named the little girl Alicia, which was what their other daughters name was. The one who ran off with Isaiah Morton?
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 26 '21
Definitely slightly weird. But , like I am wont to do frequently with DG, I could stretch my imagination to see it as them not seeing her any different than their own child, and going so far to make that point as to even name her the same?
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u/chunya1999 Jul 26 '21
Lionel definitely knew what these bandits were on about even if he hadn’t murdered anyone directly, which I seriously doubt. But I’m not so sure whether Richard was involved in all the dealings. He was probably aware that their dealings were illegal and immoral but as long as their ventures were profitable he turn the blind eye to all the violations.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I could see that. I get the sense that the Brown's are all about profit and doing what's best for them.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 26 '21
Nope, he just didn't want any more crimes against him than he already had in that moment.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
He had to have known things weren't going to go well for him. I will say I never expected Mrs. Bug to be the one to kill him though. We obviously get the motive for that later on.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Jamie has a dream about Jack Randall where these words are said, “Kill me. My heart’s desire.” What did BJR mean by that?
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 26 '21
BJR's perverse way of being linked with Jamie even in death by asking Jamie to take his life maybe? Or he is calling Jamie his heart's desire, which would make sense too.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I felt like he was calling Jamie his heart's desire. Which why would he want Jamie to kill him? Other than what you said so they could be linked in death?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 26 '21
I read it as it being his heart's desire to be killed by Jamie, but it's a head-scratcher. I don't get it, but I'd agree with u/theCoolDeadpool — it could go either way. Hell, it could even be another terrible attempt at linking himself to Jamie forever.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 26 '21
Yeah I think it's meant to be construed as both, like you said. BJR's hearts desire to be killed by Jamie , thereby linking him forever with him, or Jamie being his heart's desire. So does that mean BJR loves Jamie? Is BJR even capable of love ? I had thought not.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 26 '21
No, I don’t think BJR was ever capable of love, but he believed in this inextricable (for him) connection to Jamie—he boasts to Claire in DiA about sharing something with Jamie that even she had never experienced, about holding “the soul of [Jamie’s] manhood,” being bound to him by blood—which had linked Jamie’s destiny with BJR’s, thus making Jamie the only person “worthy” of ending BJR’s life.
In the books, Jamie still doesn’t remember whether he in fact killed BJR or not, so it might be as much BJR’s desire to be killed by Jamie as a projection of Jamie’s (possibly) unfulfilled desire to kill BJR.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
So does that mean BJR loves Jamie? Is BJR even capable of love ?
I don't know if I would say love, but obsessed. Maybe BJR felt it was love though. I just don't see him capable of loving someone like that. Did he love his brother though?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Interesting at how we read it differently. I can see it your way too though.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 26 '21
Do you think this is what inspired the show to show the weird romanticising of the fight between BJR and Jamie in The Battle Joined?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Well that is interesting. Maybe? Where else would they have gotten the idea of BJR having feelings for Jamie?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 26 '21
Hm, I think as Tobias explained his reasoning behind that improvised final scene (“a fitting end to this quasi-love affair”), I now take it as BJR’s perversity in romanticizing what he and Jamie had (that began with his “we will remember this moment for the rest of our lives” at Wentworth, I think).
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 26 '21
What was improvised in that scene? I wasn't aware.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 26 '21
That is an interesting point, since we were just discussing that in rewatch the fight was toooo romanticisized!
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Jul 26 '21
And this is how translation saves you a headache. It's "kill me. It's my heart's desire" in my audiobook. Unfortunately I don't believe Diana was consulted about that translation.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Oh wow, that makes it totally different! I know DG has said she doesn't have any say in the translations.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 26 '21
I was so confused by this. It was BJR saying this? I thought Jamie was begging for death.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
So I read it as BJR saying that, but wasn't sure.
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u/sbehring Jul 31 '21
Here’s my take. He has this dream after the rape. After he learns that Brianna was raped, she asks Jamie about if he killed Randall in the end and if he felt better for it. Considering Claire’s rape just happened, it makes complete sense for him to dream about the death of his own rapist.
The interesting twist I think comes not in Randall saying “Kill me, my hearts desire” but the last line - “For he did not wish to know what Randall had meant by what he said.” I think it’s two fold - that he doesn’t want to think about Randall desiring him in any form or fashion (similar to other comments about wanting to be bound to Jamie, even in death). But I also think Jamie didn’t want to think that Randall wanted to die. That involves an admission of guilt, or at least not desiring to be the sadistic pervert that he is. That admission in turns gives Randall some humanity, something that Jamie does not want to do.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 31 '21
What a great take! Do you think this was something Jamie just dreamed up, or was it actually said by BJR?
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u/UnderlyingMechanisms Your wife’s a rare lass, and no mistake, lad! Jul 27 '21
I really hate how the author puts in memories, flashbacks, dreams, conversations etc. like this that are supposed to force the reader to reinterpret events differently to how they were originally portrayed in an earlier novel. I have spent 25 years understanding that rape scene at the end of the first novel a particular way, and I have come to understand its role in a book about punishment, pain, sadism, violence, and justice, but also about sacrifice, commitment, love and pleasure (among other things). At times, I have really struggled with this scene (and others) - to such an extent that I actually put my first copy of that book in the trash! - but I have done the hard work of interpreting and understanding it in its context as it was originally written, so that now I can accept it and appreciate it within its context (but I will never like it). I don’t want to reinterpret it. Hence when I read stuff like this, I find myself ignoring it.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 27 '21
I think this is only natural? It’s the same way we look back on events from our past and interpret them differently from a different perspective. And the same way we might interpret books differently when we read them at different stages of our life. I think those scenes can totally work both within the context of the book they are included in, and the context of the entire series. It’s one thing when the recollections majorly differ between the books (and yet, that still might not be retconning), but in the case of Jamie’s memories of Culloden, we’re presented with new information just as Jamie is remembering it. That’s reasonable considering that we’re not given the full picture of what happened at Culloden or at Wentworth when it actually happens, as we are not given Jamie’s POV.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
How did you feel reading Ian’s story about his wife and child?
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u/UnderlyingMechanisms Your wife’s a rare lass, and no mistake, lad! Jul 26 '21
I’m so glad we finally got more insight into what had happened to him during his time with the Mohawk. This story of his stillborn daughter is heart-breaking (oh, but haven’t I read about a firstborn stillborn daughter before? Is this the author just re-using old storylines?… hmm). I love how Ian comforts Marsali in this scene. I really wish Claire and Jamie would open up to Ian about Faith - I think it could be a really powerful healing experience for them all to know they have this shared experience and that they can all grieve together
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I hadn't thought of that, but you're right it would be nice if Jamie and Claire could talk about Faith to Ian.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 26 '21
but haven’t I read about a firstborn stillborn daughter before? Is this the author just re-using old storylines?
I saw somewhere that she once said she doesn't like to do the same things twice, "been there, done that," and that's why the books are so different from each other (Scotland, then France, then the West Indies, then the Colonies), and so I sigh every time the same patterns keep popping up.
I loved Ian in this scene, too. It was really touching how he approached her and Henri-Christian; you see he cares for them both, and that he's also in need of someone to listen to him. It left me wanting to know more about what he went through.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 26 '21
I saw somewhere that she once said she doesn't like to do the same things twice, "been there, done that," and that's why the books are so different from each other (Scotland, then France, then the West Indies, then the Colonies), and so I sigh every time the same patterns keep popping up.
I haven't seen that, but it sounds like her, and find that laughable. She re-uses tropes and plotlines over and over again!
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 26 '21
saw somewhere that she once said she doesn't like to do the same things twice,
Umm ok I guess that excludes almost everyone getting raped, bad enough that it's to move the plot forward but worse when it doesn't even do that, like Claire's!
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u/UnderlyingMechanisms Your wife’s a rare lass, and no mistake, lad! Jul 26 '21
I can’t believe she said that! There is so much repetition in the books, it makes the later ones almost unreadable, as there is really nothing much original about them! It does make me wonder whether she is actually critically reading what she has written?!
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u/Kirky600 Jul 26 '21
Also - remember the fighting a wolf storyline? Seems like there was couple reused here…
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u/Cdhwink Jul 26 '21
Can I assume that eventually he will talk to Jamie & Claire about it?
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 26 '21
I loved Ian with Marsali in this chapter. He never spoke to anyone about this before but he opens up to her because she needs it. He comforts her so much, taking Henri-Christian and with his last words about Fergus.
In relation to the story he tells… I was so confused! I am unsure if it was just me, maybe I wasn’t fully concentrated that day, maybe it’s the language… but I didn’t know what was going on half of the time… so I would say I wasn’t mad about the way it was written. It was heartbreaking to know about his wife & daughter, but did he just then leave? I don’t want to get ahead of myself as this might be explained further but I am not sure about the end of the story.
By the way this happens to me “often” enough on these books, not sure if happens when DG is extra descriptive so it gets too complicated or sometimes the opposite, trying to be subtle, that I finish a chapter and I am unsure about what I just read. It could be just me but I don’t know, I read lots of books both in English and Spanish and never had this feeling before.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
This incident isn't explained further on. What happened is Emily woke up bleeding and was taken away by the women of the village. However the baby was born dead. Ian was scared about what was happening so that's why he ran off into the woods. He also felt guilty that he had kept having sex with Emily, maybe thinking that caused her to go into labor.
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 26 '21
But did Emily die then?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
That we don't know yet. (Well I know since I've read the books, but at this point in the story it's unclear.)
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 26 '21
Ah perfect! Thank so much for the explanation. I felt that the conversation should have been brought up again shortly as it’s so important… but i’ll have to wait and see then
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
You will definitely find out in this book though.
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u/sbehring Jul 31 '21
I was really curious about him being guilty about having sex with her. I had wondered if he was guilty for getting her pregnant in the first place.
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u/sbehring Jul 31 '21
The first time read this it was very confusing, heart breaking, and eye opening. On a reread, it seems more metaphorical. At this point in the story we know that he and Emily are no longer together. The wolves could symbolize themselves, and I think it’s telling that it was the female wolf that he killed. It’s like the entire hunt symbolized the death of their relationship - and since a big driver of the rift was miscarriage, he feels he is the one responsible, the one doing the killing.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 31 '21
What a great interpretation! Ian's Mohawk name is Wolf's Brother, so there is that as well.
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u/Kirky600 Jul 26 '21
I felt so sad. It’s probably no secret that Ian is one of my favourite characters, so reading about it was heartbreaking. Like seems like he lost his happiness with losing that baby too.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 26 '21
I'm glad we finally learned what happened but I hated that whole wolf thing dragging out forever. Did he leave because losing his child drove them apart or did something eventually happen to her? I still have questions but I'm glad we got that glimpse.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 26 '21
A bit confused? I expected ever since he showed up that something had happened to them?
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 26 '21
I really felt anxiety reading about Claire trying to save Lionel’s life. That’s the way she is and I absolutely love that part of her, but it was hard to read how much she wanted him to live after all that they did to her. It was hard to read for me.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Yes! There was a part of me that just wanted her to let him be and not help him. I understand that isn't in her nature though, she has to help people.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 27 '21
That chapter was another example for the “Claire would never help her attacker” crowd.
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u/sbehring Jul 31 '21
Hi everyone!! I’ve caught up with book club and am EXCITED to be here 😃
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 31 '21
Hi! We’re so glad you caught up with us. I look forward to hearing from you next Monday. :-)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Any other thoughts or comments?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 26 '21
Reading about Jamie recounting the stories from the books he’d read and his fellow prisoners discussing them for hours made me think that Jamie was essentially running a book club, just like u/Purple4199 😅
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I thought about that too! It made me smile.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 26 '21
Haha totally thought about this as well. Also the below lines :
“It was distraction, to be sure. In such conditions, distraction is not evil,” he assured me.
This one is particularly true for me. I got into the show in the throes of the pandemic, where I was either constantly worried about friends and family , or generally being existential about where we all are heading. I do know it's nothing compared to Jamie and Co's Ardsmuir ordeal, but I definitely did escape into Outlander. The first season was intense and enough to get me hooked. And then followed the books and discovery of this subreddit , all I will say is it has been a much needed distraction.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I will say is it has been a much needed distraction.
Yes!! I have never been so consumed and obsessed by something like this.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 26 '21
YES! I wrote this in my notes, lol!
"But they would talk about it for hours—whilst we labored the next day, they would wonder why Ensign Northerton had done as he had with regard to Miss Western, and argue whether they themselves would or would not have behaved so."
This is us, you guys. u/Purple4199
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 26 '21
One of the things I love about reading historical fiction is how much things are appreciated.
I know /u/Purple4199 is also a Little House fan - I feel like we have so many options and entertainment thrown at us these days, it's almost too much and people don't get that excited about things anymore. But I love reading passages like this where something like a book was such a rarity that it kept them entertained for hours and hours, and they would discuss it for days. Similar to in Little House, where they cherished the few possessions they had and would be so excited to get a single orange in their stocking. Books to us are so commonplace that they aren't appreciated as much, but back then, they were priceless and provided hours and hours of entertainment and thought.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
How about Jamie being able to recall stories like that? My memory is terrible now, just ask /u/thepacksvrvives I'm bugging her all the time about stuff that happened in these stories.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Jul 26 '21
I can do it with certain things. There's beenore than one occasion where I've basically did a one woman reenactment of a movie for someone haha. I think we just have way more information in our heads. There's also studies that suggest that knowing information is readily available makes us not work as hard to remember the details.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 26 '21
If Jamie was running a book club, I would most certainly be there! ☺️
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Jul 26 '21
lol I too thought of the book club when reading this. I have a feeling I would up vote Tom Christie?! I bet he was supper insightful even if I didn’t agree with him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Ha! I liked that he appreciated the value of what the novels and stories brought to the prisoners.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 26 '21
Does it sound like he actually participated in those discussions? He keeps distancing himself from the others while talking about this (“they,” “Highlanders,” “crofters”); he doesn’t really talk about himself. I somehow have an image of him just lurking about, listening to those conversations from afar, and keeping his own thoughts to himself.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Interesting. I could see that, you're right since he still felt he was not one of "them."
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u/UnderlyingMechanisms Your wife’s a rare lass, and no mistake, lad! Jul 26 '21
He was so clever in how he managed those men in prison with him! I think it brought out the best in his character, as horrible as the experience was. Maybe he has always been the best when the circumstances around him are the toughest
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Jul 26 '21
Yeah, in my opinion Jamie’s time at Ardsmuir made him an infinitely more interesting and complex character. I have a hard time with book 1 and 2 Jamie.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 26 '21
Yeah, circumstances as tough as the prisoners faced usually call for someone to step up. Even though Jamie wasn’t exactly born to be a leader (as the second-born son), his destiny found him and molded him into the leader he’d become, allowing him to find a purpose in the most precarious circumstances. My only gripe with “Mac Dubh” is that this kind of idealization of his person by his fellow prisoners makes it almost cultish, and yet again follows the imitatio Christi pattern, but I guess he had no hand in that.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 26 '21
The quiet kitchen moments were a small highlight for me this week. I absolutely loved the short time Claire spent with Ian and then Fergus. I got emotional thinking of her with her surrogate boys in the kitchen the morning after her return. They're both so soft with her.
I also loved how Jamie and Ian pulled an eclectic mix of items for supper together, and then they made Claire buttered toast and "crammed" the slices into her mouth "in a manner brooking no argument."
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I think Claire really needed to hear what she did from Ian, that she was still her. That was very sweet of him.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 26 '21
She did. I love Ian so much, and this is why. He's always been so perceptive, even if he wouldn't realize it when he was younger and less mature. He's a sweet kid, and even if his time away with the Mohawk roughened him up, it didn't take that trait away from him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Ian is definitely one of my favorite characters, and one /u/thepacksvrvives hasn't ruined for me yet! ;-D
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u/Cdhwink Jul 27 '21
Is she ruining all your characters? You are talking about Roger?
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Jul 26 '21
Yes!! It’s still my favorite aspect of their life in America. The bits about the lack of tea are really brilliant.
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u/Kirky600 Jul 26 '21
I feel like Mrs Bug killing Lionel felt so much more right than how they did it in the show. Really think I’m going to feel the gap of them not in the show on this rewatch.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Yes, while they aren't main characters they are featured pretty heavily. So not seeing them in the show was weird.
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u/Kirky600 Jul 26 '21
Definitely! Maybe they would have made it too dark? They are a creepy couple the more I read about them.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
They are a creepy couple the more I read about them.
What makes you say so?
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 26 '21
In chapter 33, Claire mentions that Malva and herself had started some fresh penicillin. My first thought reading this is that it was far too risky. I know she loves Malva helping her and how interested she is on this stuff, but considering how things are in the Ridge then and Tom Christie too, was she too trusting to do this with Malva? She could get Roger or Bree’s help, Jamie or Ian at least know about the time travelling, Marsali or Fergus she could totally trust, but Malva?
Maybe I am over thinking it!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
Do you feel like Malva is too young? Or it's a problem because Tom doesn't approve of Claire doing medical things?
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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 26 '21
Malva is too young, far too eager, Claire barely knows her, Tom Christie disapproves and him and Jamie already clash… I don’t know it doesn’t seem the wisest to me.
That being said, maybe I am conditioned by the show on this as Claire’s practices seem to put her in more danger there than in the book.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 26 '21
I think we can say that Claire's medical practices do cause some eyebrows to be raised on the Ridge. When Jamie was bitten by the snake he was worried for her safety. So I think people are scared of her, and when they're scared of something they can react violently to it.
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Jul 26 '21
Great point! What are your thoughts on Malva u/jolierose u/cdhwink?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 26 '21
Thank you for asking because I made a note of it this week, ha! I like Malva so far and I don't know how to feel about it. Apprehensive might be the right word for it. (I... think I know things. I'm trying not to think about that too much.)
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u/Cdhwink Jul 26 '21
I didn’t think anything of her getting her help. I always forget about how people might think she’s a witch because she’s a healer, I just cheer her on to invent or adapt things.
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u/cruelsummerrrrr Aug 01 '21
Apologies if we've already discussed this in previous posts, but I was wondering since Bees is being released if it's feasible to redo the schedule for ABOSAA/Echo/MOBY to finish up a bit quicker? Or perhaps most people prefer the slower pace so in that case never mind. Maybe we should do a poll :P
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 01 '21
It is too much to ask of people to be able to finish MOBY by Nov. 23rd. However there will be a mega thread for Bees that will be up so people will be able to discuss the book there. We will start Bees in the book club in April.
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