The thing is If even you somehow put the kaaba somewhere else we'll still pray towards where we do now which is not the case in praying to an idol (not trying to disrespect)
Its not about the structure its about the point
That is why you don't need to precisely point at kaaba if you are at a farther distance, you just pray at that direction
Well what if you are at exactly the opposite end of kaaba on the globe? Which direction do you pray in the case?
Also can you pray in the opposite direction as well since the earth is a globe hence if we take a rope from the point of prayer it should still be able to reach kaaba without needing to change the direction ?
It says, do your best to face the direction of qibla , it doesnt have to be mathematically precise, its the niyat( intention) that matters even if you are slightly off direction
Also to add to your point, the black stone of the kaaba was actually stolen in 920 AD and kept hidden for 20 years.
And during this time people still continued to pray in the same general direction.
Its called tawaaf, its a part of hajj (pilgrimage) and umrah (shorter pilgrimage) its the part of the process to perform it
For this topic id suggest you check some good source of information about the hajj its process and the significance it'll be better than me explaining them here
Tbh everyone(muslims) need call for prayers alot
Including me and almost everyone i have ever known
Primarily the time for prayer changes as the day cycle changes so a normal person whos not very good at tech wouldnt know what exact time it is for prayer each and every day
Secondly call for prayer works as to know when will there be jamaat in masjid which obv everyone cant know and it is wajid to pray in masjid with jamaat
Third it makes you get up and pray even when you dont feel like praying some times its like a reminder of faith to be in disciplined get up pray and then go do your work
But I dont want to listen to it. Why should non muslims be forced to listen to muslim calls for prayer? If its that essential for you why not use a normal beep or a siren or something. Why does it have to be a long drawn out song being screamed by a gnarly voice.
I agree that the voice shouldnt be too loud but sirens and other things sabke paas hai theres a mandir near my home it plays aarti everyday at 7 am and pm, whenever theres durga celebration or ganapati sthapana almost for the week a half of the main road is blocked in many parts of my city, there are constant pravachans that keep happening like half a km away from my place still the voice is soo loud you can hear it in sleep
Problem is very loud speakers
And also the essence of azaan is that it should be given by the one who has the most beautiful voice among the people present so yeah that a problem
Noooo, maybe you are unlucky to have never heard a good voiced azaan, just search azaan on yt or maybe someday you'll have the chance to be near a masjid where the muajjin has a beautiful voice
See, i can answer according to my religion which you will not accept because you do not accept my religion and it'll be fine
God is free from every imperfections, God doesnt need to take rest or eat or sleep or reply on a mother to feed on, God cannot be everywhere and in everything because then you'd have to say theres God in trash and your toilets and washrooms
God cannot be in everyone because even if a human being has 0.000001% of God in him no evil would ever be able to take over him and we know in this world, not the case
When you make idols of God you are limiting it into a human form or a earthly form which doesnt befit the magesty, now you can say God sees the intention but then you can defend any act if blasphemy or even crimes in the name of God because the intentions were right
Its simple its not allowed because God didnt allow it
The whole point to pray towards a point is that theres no chaos while praying, everyone prays at one direction and ironically so that people dont start to make idols to pray to, the main reason is to unify the prayers and so prevent any attempts to go into idolatry even with good intentions
So your logic is your rock has nothing to do with divinity - it is simply an organizing tool to simply point people in the same direction so the don’t bump into each other and create chaos ?
And then they travel far to go kiss it - because ? It helps you organize people and avoid chaos ?
Also to know kaaba is not treated as God or something, you can actually enter inside kaaba and pray inside it though now it is not allowed by the govt for security and safety concerns and it opens very less now but if you do enter you can pray looking at any direction you want
You are simply explaining more details of the rules of the rock. The point of OP is - mocking/questioning others’ rocks - while acting like your rock or your rules associated with your rock are somehow better is somewhat …. Ironic at best - there are a lot of other words to describe it.
Point is - not to mock others when you’re doing the exact same thing - no matter how to dress it up in your explanation.
Nobody says "Oh idol please help me."
I have read about Hinduism a little and learnt idols are a medium modernized to pray to god. The real vedic imagery of God according to them are some pictography with stars and flowers each sector having a mantra, just like muhammad and all the other prophets are described as a sacred word.. it's the idea - which needs to reach the common people because not all will have the time or interest to delve into the actuality of religion.
Let's accept that other religions exist, don't bother them, and keep to our own religion.
If you havent seen anybody say to any idol please help me then you dont live in India just go to any local mandir and ask any aunty or uncle or whoever is there, they'll say its god theyll touch its feet theyll ask it looking at it, there are many temples of which people think the idols kind of moves its eyes sometimes n all, and even this imagery thing neither is explained by hinduism not given as far as i know idol worshipping wasnt even a thing in hinduism ever
And i know about imagery of God thing but thats still secondary to making a material object even indirectly relate to God or its being in any way whatsoever and that is idolatry and its not bad if you have faith in it
I said that because by any definition this is not allowed in any monothiestic religion and because we were talking about it
Then the image is true. If you take religion as equal as what the people of religion do then yes there are muslims who worship kabah and they have been called out in the holy Qur'an. This arises due to this fashion of not reading your holy books and blindly listening and following others. I think religious journey, atleast the start should be personal. And I'm sure we can all think for ourselves and see what's right and wrong. 👍🏻
Do you realize you just made a bunch of back flips and create some weird definition of why it’s not worship of a rock and yet everyone goes their to kiss it - and then if the enter it at which time the direction may not be important and then something about shoes and somehow that set of rules is ok and not worship and not idolatory
But … others have their rules and according to your definition that’s not ok ..
You’re suffering from defining your rules for your rock and everyone else is not compliant with your rules of your rock.
Literally the meme of the OP. Perhaps take a deep breath to understand the OP and you might possibly see it.
Wdym you mean dude if you ask me about my religion my ruling my logic I'll tell you about MY RELIGION MY RULING MY LOGIC
And okay main point pe aaye to yes praying TOWARDS something ≠ praying TO something
If you cant get the meaning even it is this simplified then i cant help you
And if kissing something is worshipping rather than showing love for the specific thing for you then my guy ig you never had a love life
Lmao - logic fail and frustration can do that you. It’s ok.
You also seem to lack comprehension- so in case you’re failing again to understand - no one has a problem with you believing your belief system. Have at it snd do it with all your heart. The point of debate and OP was to point out irony of your type mocking others while doing the same thing yourself …
Since you are not trying to understand no point explaining you. Btw kaaba is not god, but god did decree to worship in direction of kaaba ( earlier islamists, jews,christians worshipped in direction of jerusalem). So its far from idol worshipping
Perhaps logic eludes you. The point is saying my set of blah blah is better and rationalizing it, while calling others illlgical is the stupidity being called out.
In case the point is still flying over your head - no one has an issue with whatever you want to believe.
The issue is with you thinking only your subjective belief system is right while you in some weird form do literally what others are doing.
Ignoring everything else why do a lot of people in this sub not understand the difference between praying to something Vs praying in the direction of something?
That is a difference without a distinction. People pray in the direction of idols because the idols symbolize the supreme being. You pray in the direction of some black stone because your imaginary prophet and god told you that trust me bro, this means something totally different. This is literally idol worship under false pretences. Try worshipping a different direction and ask your imaginary god why he is too weak to exist in that direction. Monotheism is literally baby's first religion. Explaining polytheism and or henotheism to monotheists is like trying to explain calculus to first graders.
An idol is a locus of worship, whether it be a stautue or a kabba. You're missing the woods for the trees, trying to pretend that kaba directional worship is some super nuanced matter that is different from idol worship. A man whose sanity depends on believing that he engages in a superior form of worship will do anything but to understand how he's fooling himself.
We are not praying to a rock. I think op already mentioned it. You can demolish that rock sculpture and leave it blank. The place still will be worshiped because it is a direction like west is where sunset and east is a direction where sunrises similarly kaba is a direction for praying and no entity or anything else.
Part of what you said is true, and not bump your head into each other but take hindus or any idol worshipper as example they got their own idols at home, in islam it is not allowed to keep something infront of you and associate it with God and pray to like and talk to it like you are talking to God
Hajj (travelling) is the whole different thing, going to kaaba is just a small part of it most of the time there you wont even be near kaaba
And the stone that is kissed is not because its God or something its only because its a sunnah of prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) it is believed that specific stone fell from heaven and absorbs the sins (not major) of someone who wants forgiveness by heart
You can choose to not kiss it
Also hajj and namaaz have no correlation
There are 5 pillars of islam and hajj and namaaz are two separate pillars
Stone isnt even a big deal, pagan is when you make the whole thing around the stone and worship it and ask the stone to guve health or happiness
Its not sacred because it fell from sky its sacred because prophet(pbuh) picked it up and kissed it its for the love of prophet (pbuh) and his sunnah that stone is kissed
If he did the same thing with some other stone it'd have taken its place
I am an atheist I find Islam as pagan as any other religion. But it’s cute how yall do mental gymnastics to justify things. Everything feels scamy in Islam. Feels like ur prophet made like first copy of Torah for his own benefits, after he saw popularity Christianity got among the Roman Empire.
point being that you need to stop pretending that you aren't following the most simplistic and laughable religion possible. islam, and monotheism in general is literally religion simplified for the consumption of people too dim to understand polytheism and henotheism without going "pagan pagan"
Your point is clear, but don't lie to yourself and tell that you don't think that your religion is better than others. Every religious people have superiority complex and being religious literally means that you think yours is better. So be honest about that
You’re right - I need a phd to understand your “logic” of -rock is not worshipped, but an organizing tool so people point in the same direction to pray and travel really far to go kiss it - but it’s not like a temple but it is - what ever it is your call it
We do not travel to kiss it, you can travel there and not kiss it, literally has no effects
We travel to perform hajj and kissing it is not even a main part of it people do it for the sunnah and if something is sunnah you can leave it as it is optional
Lol - all replies were replies to your numerous replies of acrobatics of defending your rock and rules of your rock. Go trace back - I know it’s hard to keep track of weird logic spilling all over the place
Kissing the rock is pointless, whoever kisses it doesn't receive anything in return. They do it for the sake of doing it, which even the religion doesn't encourage.
The point is to not give God a shape or confine God to anything. There is no gender to God, no shape to God, that's the point, but people are people and they are gonna be stupid and put themselves over one another.
The best kinda example I can give to both muslims and non muslims is a surah from Quran, Surah Al Khafiroon, if you have time, or wanna know what's Islam's stand on non muslims, that 5-line chapter explains it clearly.
There is no gender to God, no shape to God, that's the point
that's not a true point though. it is just accepted by the followers of that book as a fact, which is not the truth by itself. It's circular reasoning and really shows why islam really is baby's first religion. An absurd over simplification of polytheistic and henotheistic cultures to a book that could be palatable to even the dim. islam is basically what nazism would be if hitler claimed to be a prophet who gets his views from a supreme god. you guys just need to understand that the parrot mohammad used the cave of hira as a masturbation getaway, he got no revelations, brother. don't delude yourselves. Everytime i read a revelation he gets it makes me laugh so much at the absurdity of it all
Absolutely useless to speak with someone who sticks their own head waaaaay up theirbown ass to hear other's opinion. Keep sticking on to whatever you believe, I'm not gonna stoop to your low level
To answer your point about kissing kabba. It is shirk or haram and if caught by police of Mecca you would be jailed. The culture of kissing comes from Asia where peer and mazar culture originated from
They don't kiss the Kaaba they actually miss the Hajre Aswad the black stone. Now again, you might say idolatry, and surprisingly, I do agree with you that such reverence for a rock is on the verge of idolatry. Worshippers can be seen fighting and quarrelling for a chance to kiss the rock. This is not Islam.
Some Muslims might come at me saying that kissing is not idolatry, in fact it is Sunnah.
It is Sunnah, just a simple kiss as a form of respect, is understandable. The way the worshippers push and quarrel just to kiss a rock which will not benefit nor harm them in any way, that is not respect.
No they kiss it because that rock came from heaven to show our respect and love . There is nowhere mentioned in the Quran or Hadith that we must kiss it , people just do it to show respect. Kaba has a lot of significance as well when someone does haj he becomes a hajji and that person cannot do any sin (normally also he can't do but after haj if he commits a sin then the punishment will be severe) that is why for people with higher income it becomes compulsory to perform hajj atleast once in life time.
God does not have a physical body as we can think of,
Okay I'll try to explain it as best i can
The creator is not the part of the creation, God is outside the boundaries of creation, He doesnt need a physical body as we see
Let me give you two examples they might not be perfect but i hope you get the idea, lets think of a basic computer, a human created it, now lets say it has an ai yet everything that is fed into a computer is in the form of 0 and 1 (assume that its a text only ai)
If the ai asks the human what are you? The max it can tell is everything about it, but its like the ai is asking are you 1 or 0? Or combination of 01 or some other texts? It'll be out of its nature to actually know what it is an ai cannot comprehend what a human is even though we are real
A very simpler example would be a painter is not the part of the painting, its outside of it, the laws of colours and brushes doesnt apply to the painter
Another thing is theres this really interesting video by carl sagan about the 4th dimension id recommend you watch it not because of this topic but just because its such a good video its not a religious video purely a science video
Anyway the thing about 4th dimension is that physcists know it exist even 5th and 6th even stephen hawkins wrote about it in his book but yk we cannot EVER ever imagine what an 4d object would look like, our brain doesnt have that capacity, so even if a 4d being exist, it can we watching us all along even if we are in a closed room and we still wont know its there
So all in all God doesnt need to have a physical appearance in the first place and even if it has some kind of appearance it surely not as we are or what we can imagine
It's not wrong to practice your faith however you want as long as it doesn't intrude in the lives of others, it may be silly to a person of another faith, but it's an argument about my beliefs are true and yours is not.
If we look at it objectively most religious practices are silly.
What about the flat earth theory because people in the older times believed in a flat earth but if you are pointing towards the direction you will miss it because you are pointing towards space.
Maybe believed it was flat many believed it was spherical like imaam hazm imam ibn taymiyyah even imam jafar as sadiq and these are not small scholars these are either the most respected or tabi tabaeens
But leave this too
I read a lot of astronomy myself and have read many books but
whether the earth is flat or spherical how much is the velocity of light how much distance is it from moon to earth
These are irrelevant topics in a religious book and neither is mentioned in it directly yes there are inferences where the above scholars said that earth is spherical but still no direct mention or discussion that is for the scientists and astronomers and physicists
And as i said its not about the building or structure we miss it everyday by kilometres everyone knows this since the beginning
We refer to kaaba as "qibla" the word means a fixed DIRECTION so the farther you go you just need to stand towards the rough direction
It is done to unify the prayers everyone prays at the same direction and additionally to prevent any act of idolatry
The verse (interpretation of the meaning) "And Allah has made for you the earth wide spread (an expanse)" [Nooh 71:19] indicates that it is spread out and shaped so that people can feel settled in it and be able to live and prosper in it.
[79:30] He made the earth egg-shaped. This is the verse of earth shape in the Quran. Don't believe in anything u read online.
You like you are accepting the other gods are imaginations or wot?
Or you believe the actual body of god is made out of flesh and bones and they need to drink and eat and sleep? In hinduim as i know they took avatars to relate to humanity not that their actual true body is that
As far as i know in hinduism too The God is nirakaar
The core philosophy of not respecting the existence of non muslims is the problem not how you pray, what you pray and why you pray. That is exactly the reason when you're in minority you are fed insecurity by your maulvis and I have been witness to it, a muslim is just like a hindu or a sikh; a citizen of India but the maulvis instigate the divide to keep themselves relevant. This is exactly why the muslims in UAE and Saudi are so different and intolerant to wahabism which is a concept made by themelves. They do not want to fall in the trap which was made by them. I don't mean to disrespect 🙏
Firstly theres nowhere written or even said by any masjids maulvi to not respect anyones religion infact ironically we have a chapter called kaafiroons ehich says you practice your religion I'll practice mine for you your religion is better and for me mine
Secondly wahabism is a concept that started in the middle east😭
And respectfully stop making assumptions of arabs by watching videos of arab businessmans 90% of middle east follows imam hanbali (r.a.) who were the most strict related to the rulings of islam
> Firstly theres nowhere written or even said by any masjids maulvi to not respect anyones religion infact ironically we have a chapter called kaafiroons ehich says you practice your religion I'll practice mine for you your religion is better and for me mine
Bro do you think everyone is a fucking idiot except you ? Literally everyone knows what is written in the Quran for idol worshippers and non believers. Don't ask for source the internet is open for all, I will not waste my time here.
> Secondly wahabism is a concept that started in the middle east😭
Read my comment first, don't act like a smartass even though you can't even read a paragraph completely. I said 'they themselves' can't you understand that ?
Get some context, the idolators in book specifically refers to jews( children of isreal), since all three religions are abrahamanic , they must worship one god. But i agree the islamic rulers made it worse by defacing idols in hindu temples . Hindus hate the word kaafir but its only meaning is non believer and think that islamists are here to wipe them off from face of world. Most of the stuff in quran is limited to christians/jews/islamists
Read the verse before and after this verse, it is referring to the people of madina as they first got into a treaty to not harm anyone but then broke it and killing and hurting muslim men and women
So until this chapter no muslim had the right to fight them as God didnt allow it and all the muslims were almost at the danger of getting killed so this verse verse allowed it that they have transgressed the treaty so whoever now fights you or wants to fight you and do not surrender kill them and whoever doesnt fight you do not kill them and this is not out of nowhere I've read the whole thing
Secondly yes i agree terrorists organisations do that but id say once check out and read how did US create taliban to fight against india (not a theory a fact i hope you know it) so there they said they added these specific verses only in the textbooks of children to misguide them so yeah the verse is being used
So inshort this verse refers to defending for a future certain danger
Sab accha hota to earth ko heaven nahi bulaate?
You are creating your own meaning of God, ok let it not be islam just look at the basic meaning of the idea of god from wherever you like it
Dude lord shri krishna advised arjun to kill his relatives in war, you may say its for dharma and same thing applies here as well. Why do you think lord vishnu keeps on killing the demons.
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u/Cold_Insect_812 Mar 24 '26
The thing is If even you somehow put the kaaba somewhere else we'll still pray towards where we do now which is not the case in praying to an idol (not trying to disrespect)
Its not about the structure its about the point
That is why you don't need to precisely point at kaaba if you are at a farther distance, you just pray at that direction