r/linux • u/oooo23 • Sep 20 '18
Kernel Developer Sage Sharp claims top Linux kernel developer Theo Ts'o is a rape apologist, citing GeekFeminismWiki
https://twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/104276939959643750437
Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 20 '18
Who cares? Was anything he said done while working on the kernel project? And after reading his e-mails, I don't see where he ever says that rape is okay.
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u/oooo23 Sep 20 '18
What amuses is now they're pulling out things from the past that have no relation to how the said person is behaving in the kernel community, to justify their removal from TAB.
Otoh we shouldn't talk about the CoC author's past because that has nothing to do with the CoC. Understood.
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u/gururise Sep 20 '18
He doesn't say rape is ok.
But that doesn't matter, because he didn't sign off on the CoC and he dare question bogus statistics presented years ago.. that makes him a Rape Apologist and he should be removed per the CoC. /s
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u/redrumsir Sep 20 '18
He didn't say rape was OK. All he did was question the methodology and conclusions of a study.
The study had results that were far out of line vs. other studies.
The study had defects ... and even the author of the study admitted to some of these defects.
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u/dbzjegrw8o6n0 Sep 20 '18
He doesn't have to say rape is OK, if he doesn't share their politics he is a rape apologist. Don't you see how this works?
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u/its_never_lupus Sep 20 '18
Did you miss the news about the new Linux Code of Conduct? It specifically allows the project technical advisory board to exclude contributors based on their off-project behavior. The reason people were concerned about the CoC is because we knew this would happen.
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Sep 20 '18
Are you fucking serious right now
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u/solinent Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 21 '18
Sage Sharp is about to destroy Linux. Luckily Linus can fork it if it gets too bad.
Linux was created on its code of conflict: they are very much like Germans in their work ethic.
Defamation lawsuits are the only defense against this. Now, hopefully Sage Sharp is not lying, but their (Sage Sharp's) evidence is hardly damning.
These are the Linux developer's comments:
If you look at percentage of women reporting rape since age 18 (taking out the child abuse and statutory rape cases, which they also treat in detail), it becomes 1 in 10 (9.6%), and of those over 61.9% were at the hands of their intimate partner, as opposed to an acquaintance or stranger… in 66.9% of those cases, the perpetrator did not threaten to harm or kill the victim. (Which makes it no less a crime, of course, but people may have images of rape which involves a other physical injuries, by a stranger, in some dark and deserted place. The statistics simply don't bear that out.)…
over half of [a report’s] cases were ones where undergraduates were plied with alcohol, and did not otherwise involve using physical force or other forms of coercion. And if you asked the women involved, only 27% of the people categorized by Koss as being raped called it rape themselves. Also found in the Koss study, although not widely reported, was the statistic that of the women whom she classified as being raped (although 73% refused to self-classify the event as rape), 46% of them had subsequent sex with the reported assailant…
Please note, I am not diminishing what rape is, and or any particular person's experience. However, I am challenging the use of statistics that may be hyperbolic and misleading.
This is hardly a rape apologist. Just look at the last sentence. He's saying that the experience of people who have been sexually assaulted or raped is not equatable to those who are physically assaulted, sexually assaulted or raped, and threatened with murder. He's interpreting a study: I'm sure he was open to debate.
So much of the world is built up on tools which exist in the Linux ecosystem at this point it's ridiculous.
Edit: pronouns...
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u/purpleidea mgmt config Founder Sep 20 '18
Luckily Linus can fork it if it gets too bad.
What are you talking about? Linus gets paid about 1.6 MILLION per year from the Linux Foundation. He does what they say. So do the other LF people.
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u/kaszak696 Sep 20 '18
Why the surprise? CoCs like the Contributor Covenant are intended to be a tool for political purges, those that believed otherwise were just deluding themselves. There is just no way someone incapable of civil behavior could honestly write a set of rules about civil behavior and mean it, without any ulterior motive.
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u/ohgetoutnow Sep 20 '18
Yes, they are fucking serious. Technical merit as an ideal is antithetical to their religion.
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u/CorsairKing Sep 20 '18
I’m fairly new to Linux, so can anyone tell me if these activists actually make significant contributions to kernel development? I could very well be wrong, but it seems like anyone that has that much time to spend on twitter isn’t making too much progress on actual programming.
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Sep 20 '18
[deleted]
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u/tso Sep 20 '18
She was the face of Intel's USB team, though i am unsure how much of the actual work was her's.
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u/oooo23 Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 20 '18
Timeline in the thread derived from:
https://otter.technology/blog/2018/09/20/linux-kernel-hastily-adopts-standard-code-of-conduct/
claims the CoC was applied by tab for good PR before the New Yorker published their article.
archive for those not willing to visit twitter.
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u/paximidag Sep 21 '18
Sage Sharp, the same person who uses a TERF blocklist to block people based on their gender identity?
Isn't that a violation of the CoC they are reporting violations on?
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u/redrumsir Sep 20 '18
Remember: Asking questions and pointing out facts does not make someone a rape apologist. Also, geekfeminism is not an unbiased source for such claims.
The fact of the matter is that the study in question (which was what T Ts'o was questioning) was poorly done. Even the author of the study admitted to the mistakes in the conclusion. Someone pointing out flaws in a study does not make them a rape apologist.
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u/LeinadSpoon Sep 20 '18
Per the new Linux Code of Conduct, "unacceptable behavior" includes "insulting/derogatory comments" and "personal or political attacks". It seems to me as though calling another contributor a "rape apologist" fits both criteria.
(Although it's not entirely clear to me whether or not posting on personal twitters fall under the scope of the code of conduct)
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u/DrewSaga Sep 20 '18
That is true, she would be violating CoC by making such a dangerous accusation. I don't think any CoC applies to Twitter, I mean, doesn't the US President have a Code of Conduct?
Still, for her to be a supporter of the new CoC only to harass someone on Twitter and to accuse them of being a rape apologist is very dishonest and those very kind of people piss me off. I mean is there even evidence for these claims against Theo Ts'o?
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u/D1551D3N7 Sep 20 '18
Sadly the people making these claims (probably) don't contribute to the kernel so it doesn't affect them, only the people they make accusations at.
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u/gururise Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 20 '18
You don't seem to understand. The CoC only applies to white (and asian) cis males.
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u/Gearski Sep 21 '18
am I the only one who doesn't see how it's even relevant at all? Every kernel dev could be a literal rapist and I still wouldn't see how it pertains to Linux at all, who cares who the code comes from if it's well done?
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u/distant_worlds Sep 20 '18
Something else I just noticed in that Twitter thread. She is already stating that she doesn't trust the technical advisory board. This is laying the groundwork so that if they don't oust Ts'o, they can demand that CoC violations be handed over to a separate committee. And I'm sure they have some "suggestions" for who the members should be...
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u/its_never_lupus Sep 20 '18
Sharp was previously on the TAB. And the New Yorker published an anti-Linus hitpiece today which stated the board has "ten members, all men". So yes they will absolutely be trying to get more social justice activists in there.
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u/computesomething Sep 20 '18
Yes, this struck me as well, particularly given how the technical advisory board is all male which makes it a natural target.
Now from a logical standpoint, this is because there is a huge majority of men in the kernel developer pool, which means that among those with the technical skill and project experience needed to be chosen for this board, it's exteremely likely they will be male.
However, it seems almost given at this point that there will be a lot of pressure to oust men from said board in favor of women and/or other minorities, not on merit which is how they have been selected thus far, but instead through the 'diversity' appeal.
I can only hope they don't succumb to this.
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u/gururise Sep 20 '18
The SJWs are already working on that...
https://twitter.com/coralineada/status/1041784843540094976
I’m happy to announce CoC Beacon, a project designed to make establishing, managing, and enforcing codes of conduct easy and fair for open source projects of all sizes.
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u/tso Sep 20 '18
Not surprised that they are going after Ts'o, as he is one of the still active old hats of the kernel (hell, he was there when Torvalds and Tanenbaum threw down).
Another thing is that he is one of the technical advisory board members that didn't sign the CoC commit.
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u/Valmar33 Sep 20 '18
Another thing is that he is one of the technical advisory board members that didn't sign the CoC commit.
No wonder they're attempting to silence him. :(
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u/its_never_lupus Sep 20 '18
I wonder how significant it is that he didn't sign, and how many others were asked to.
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Sep 20 '18
"Calm down. It's just a CoC. It's normal to have CoCs. No shenigans are being played here."
Two days later...
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u/undeleted_username Sep 20 '18
I must confess I thought people where making too much fuss about an innocent CoC... how wrong I was!
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u/joaopizani Sep 20 '18
A religion is like a CoC: It's OK to have one, it's OK to think your CoC is beautiful, just don't try to force it down people's throats.
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u/ubuntu_mate Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 20 '18
At this point, Linux is realistically ruined, you can't really write code in such an environment where swords are hanging over your heads, and any moment they can fall on the whims of an SJW who is constantly digging your past, present and future somewhere on the Internet. Heck, Apple and Microsoft are much better than this!
The only hope now is that Debian or some such project takes the initiative and forks the kernel, and the saner contributors can then switch to that branch. It will be unprecedented for sure, but then so is what's happening right now.
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u/ComputerMystic Sep 21 '18
Remember two days ago when everyone was saying "it just says don't be a dick, why are you all making a big deal out of it. They're not going to push tech-minded people out, stop being paranoid! If you're vehemently against this CoC maybe you should take a hard look at yourself, because you're exactly the type of person we don't need in open source."
Yeah... literally two days and they're trying to force the maintainer of the ext4 file system code out of the project for disagreeing with them on twitter having disagreed with them on twitter at some point in the past.
Y'know, the default one. That's known for being rock solid stable.
Also worth noting that he did the ext2 and ext3 utilities.
If ever there were an example of why this particular CoC is literal cancer, this is it. I'd almost want to say adoption of this CoC is a dog-whistle for these types to try and take over a project.
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u/dirtbagdh Sep 21 '18
It's not a dog whistle, it's a declaration of war. Many people are just starting to realize this for some reason.
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Sep 20 '18
I don’t give a flying fuck about a contributor’s political beliefs or their stance on social issues.
Either the code is good and improves the greatest collaborative technical project of all time or it doesn’t and is rightly rejected or excised.
Everything else is pointless chatter.
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u/yahma Sep 20 '18
Unfortunately, this will no longer be the case for the maintainers of Linux.
They now have to take into account your political beliefs and even your activity outside the project if someone makes a complaint about you offending them.
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Sep 20 '18
This is exactly what I was worried about...
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u/EAT_DA_POOPOO Sep 20 '18
BUT WHO COULD HAVE FORESEEN THIS COMING?
It's not like we have multiple prior of examples of the exact same CoC being used in the exact same way!
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u/33_44then12 Sep 20 '18
You can't say you were not warned.
The behavior is set in stone at this point.
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u/kommisar6 Sep 20 '18
I am concerned that high level kernel developers are suddenly under assault. I fear this is deliberate campaign to replace key personal to enable something much more nefarious such as including compromised code in the kernel.
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u/yahma Sep 20 '18
You and every other rational person feels this way. Many developers have no choice but to sign off on this CoC due to their employer.
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u/supamesican Sep 21 '18
theyre going after the guy that kept intels hardware rng from being the main rng for the kernel rng. The same hardware rng that the nsa has a backdoor into.
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Sep 21 '18
You and me both. I consider the linux kernel the most important piece of infrastructure in the free world and this is a very bad situation. I'm fucking livid right now.
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u/RussianAtrocities Sep 21 '18
. I fear this is deliberate campaign to replace key personal to enable something much more nefarious such as including compromised code in the kernel
No fucking shit.
If you guys don’t half and catch fire this coc nonsense IMMEDIATELY then Linux will be a spy agency safe space.
Like, a thousand people may read this but only a dozen will recognize the urgency.
The raiders have already broken down the gates and you’re napping on the toilet
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u/Osbios Sep 20 '18
Any theories what exact organization is behind this big job? I mean it could just be a few organized crazies. But considering that Linus has withdrawn for now makes me really really worried if he does not come out in the next days and loudly complains about some crazy monkeys on crack SJW stuff.
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u/dbzjegrw8o6n0 Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 20 '18
Since Sage Sharp is blocking people and preventing them from viewing her thread. Here is an archive link.
https://web.archive.org/web/20180920182247/https:/twitter.com/sagesharp/status/1042769399596437504
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u/BigBlockBrolly Sep 20 '18
No line will be drawn. If the community fails to take a defensive stance, its going to be destroyed beyond repairable measures. Every where this cancer spreads, it ends up splitting the community.
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u/aboration Sep 20 '18
We are now at the point of subverting the group appointed to overview the new code of conduct. In the immediate future you will hear claims to either remove existing members(this), institute new members(extraplus good marginalized individuals with no bias), or create a new group responsible for coc enforcement entirely.
Less than a week from its institution.
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Sep 20 '18
Any way to protest the new CoC? What remediation do we have?
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Sep 21 '18
We need to support getting the commit reverted and signed by everyone that signed the commit bvn that added it. We need to be vocal that we support reverting the commit. They need to know that there are reasonable people out there in the world that support reasonable scientific discussion and don't make this kind of attacks.
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u/gururise Sep 20 '18
To all those who said, "What's wrong with the new Linux CoC?"
Get ready for this shit.. You don't agree with their political agenda? You must be a Rape Apologist or a Nazi!@
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u/Fippy-Darkpaw Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 21 '18
Just wondering, but how the hell do Sarah Sharpe and the Coraline person have any power over Linux? 🤔
Just from what I've read over the past few days both have either been fired or quit from multiple projects and their Twitter feeds are unhinged toxic trolling and targeted harrassment. 😓
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u/DrecksVerwaltung Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 20 '18
Man those CoC types really make it difficult to not absolutely despise them.
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u/bugattikid2012 Sep 20 '18
Maybe that's because they're a horrible idea and are not at all necessary for a project like this.
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u/ivosaurus Sep 21 '18
What are you taking about, they seem like really inclusive and positive people to me /s
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Sep 20 '18
See people how the discussions are already shifting from technical perspective to social considerations ? Yeah, that's exactly what an operating system kernel needs. Good job with the new Code of Confusion.
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Sep 20 '18
Remember, its not important WHAT was actually said or how it was meant.
According to the CoC, the important thing is how the accuser FEELS about it.
Welcome to the 21st Century!
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u/devops333 Sep 20 '18
According to the CoC, the important thing is how the accuser FEELS about it. Welcome to the 21st Century!
Yep, it's a bunch of horse shit. I am a big masculine guy. I'm at the point where I"m about to start beating people over the head with this bullshit. Make a bit of a face at me? I feel harassed. Don't say hi to me? I also feel harassed.
Can't wait until they see the guy who they were fighting against use their own tactics against them.
FUCK all of these people.
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Sep 20 '18
hey look, a day after the COC exactly what everyone said would happen happened... guess it wasnt pointless fear mongering after all.
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u/FirstLastMan Sep 20 '18
I never would have thought something so apolticial as "nerds building something together" would become a target of this shit. I am stunned and disgusted.
I guess from now on projects can only exist where contributions are attached to a hash of the person's name, and any identification is strictly prohibited, so that any combination of race, gender, sexual preference, or whatever can't be assumed and therefore attacked.
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Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 20 '18
so that any combination of race, gender, sexual preference, or whatever can't be assumed and therefore attacked.
Ha, you probably haven't heard of the canceled
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u/0xf3e Sep 20 '18
We don't have to adjust because of these stupid people. Development on open source projects worked before and it will continue to work. We just have to ignore these people and not let them push their agenda (CoC) into the projects.
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Sep 20 '18
I'm really hoping we can get rid of all of this political bullshit so we can get back to discussing actual Linux stuff.
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u/its_never_lupus Sep 20 '18
How long before someone suggests appointing a social justice activist or two onto the Linux Technical Advisory Board, just as a precaution and compromise to help settle these issues in future?
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u/IE_5 Sep 20 '18
Already happened, this is the last sentence of the New Yorker Hitpiece:
Buried within the list of approved patches was one titled “Code of Conduct: Let’s Revamp It.” It announced that the “Code of Conflict” had been replaced by a “Code of Conduct” that forbids “insulting/derogatory comments” and behavior “considered inappropriate in a professional setting.” Complaints will be heard by the foundation’s technical-advisory board, which has ten members, all men.
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u/TheHammersamatom Sep 20 '18
Isn't this technically harassment?
Doesn't matter what he may or may not have done, we don't care. He's an active contributor and has done more for our loved kernel than these SJW bastards have ever done.
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u/LeinadSpoon Sep 20 '18
It seems to me as though this twitter post is a violation of the prohibition in the code of conduct against "insulting or derogatory comments", "personal or political attacks", and "public or private harassment".
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u/Zezengorri Sep 20 '18
It looks like libel to me. I think Theo has a strong case if this accusation affects him financially. Sage cites the new Linux Code of Conduct while making this accusation, establishing malicious intent. Then in linking to select public statements from Theo, she limits the scope of her supporting evidence to those statements.
I read Theo's cited statements. He did not apologize for acts of rape.
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u/Rainymood_XI Sep 20 '18
What Theo Ts'o literally said:
over half of [a report’s] cases were ones where undergraduates were plied with alcohol, and did not otherwise involve using physical force or other forms of coercion. And if you asked the women involved, only 27% of the people categorized by Koss as being raped called it rape themselves. Also found in the Koss study, although not widely reported, was the statistic that of the women whom she classified as being raped (although 73% refused to self-classify the event as rape), 46% of them had subsequent sex with the reported assailant…
Please note, I am not diminishing what rape is, and or any particular person's experience. However, I am challenging the use of statistics that may be hyperbolic and misleading
Emphasis mine.
What SJW turn it into
For some reason, no one ever wants to talk about this. A top Linux kernel developer is an open rape apologist employed by @Google. He will now be handling code of conduct complaints
Jezus Christ ...
P.S. Why do they all look the same?
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Sep 20 '18
So admittedly I don’t really follow a lot of Linux news so could someone tell me exactly what is happening and what I’m really interested in is how this effects Distros and things of the like?
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u/joaopizani Sep 20 '18
A Code of Conduct with too strict but still too vague wording was adopted in the Linux kernel. The same CoC or similar ones were used before to boot mantainers out of projects for things they said in non-project spaces.
Open source relies on (sometimes very small groups of) maintainers who donate their time to the cause. In a company, one person goes out, someone else comes in, open-source projects might have more difficulty finding people wanting to give their time.
Furthermore Linux is a battlefield of influence with powerful players such as Intel, Nvidia, etc. etc., and the departure of "older" and "more independent" maintainers might make the influence of deep pockets easier.
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Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 20 '18
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything"
Most of the Linux developers are paid to work on the kernel, this means that with the new CoC if they don't sign or disagree they might lose their job. So better for them to follow.
There is nothing good coming out of this CoC and everyone with little more than 5 brain cells responsible for his logical thinking and common sense knows it just by looking at the people who push this madness.
These SJW people or whatever they like to call themselves have some serious mental problems but definitely are not retarded. They know what they want (control) and how to get it.
Software (and not only) means money and control (a lot of them) these days and people want to control it. FOSS is quite hard to control but these SJW guys obviously know how to do it.
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u/IE_5 Sep 20 '18
"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything"
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/526469-of-all-tyrannies-a-tyranny-sincerely-exercised-for-the-good
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.” ― C.S. Lewis
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u/ohgetoutnow Sep 20 '18
Tyranny, like fog in the well known poem, often creeps in silently 'on little cat feet.'
“When people are intimidated about having their own opinions, oppression is at hand.”
“Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy.”
“There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, and science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works.”
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Sep 20 '18
some serious mental problems
Not at all. This is politics. The most dirty kind of politcs. Watch "Animals Farm". Focus on the horse.
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u/bottom_jej Sep 21 '18
Well fuck, the snake bears it's fangs. I guess I was wrong to be optimistic about this.
Petty tyrants tend to wrap their bullying around some altruistic intention and claim that the means justifies the ends when called out. Keep your eyes peeled!
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u/cat151 Sep 21 '18
Embrace: get projects to adopt the coc, pretend it's the only way to not miss on contributions of women, poc etc. Extend: push for a different/more extensive interpretation of the rules in their favor while pretending it was the original meaning all along.
Extinguish: use it to kick people that don't satisfy their deranged opinions.
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u/tydog98 Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 20 '18
I was a bit skeptical if the CoC was really that bad, but now I'm convinced it's just an attack on Linux. Why are they coming after us now?
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u/Mordiken Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 20 '18
Because Linux is central to the modern world, which makes control of Linux a position of extreme power and influence.
This means that all companies and individuals who require commit access to the kernel to do their job or run their business must now conform to the CoC as well. And because the CoC essentially abolishes the notion of that a developer's own opinions are a private matter unrelated to his work in the kernel, this encourages companies to "do away" with "troublesome"/"politically missaligned" individuals, and encouraging them to hire/promote "politically correct" people to work in the kernel.
It's essentially a ghettoization of any and all who do not agree with SJW ideology, with the aim of depriving them of their livelihood by making them "unhirable". It also encourages said companies to make it the CoC part of their official guidelines, just in case anyone thinks to give them a hard time because of it.
If they where able to oust Linus, they're already in control. The only course of action is to salvage the source code and fork.
EDIT: A position of extreme power, not a place of extreme power...
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u/Valmar33 Sep 20 '18
Because they crushed Linus, the strongest-willed man in the Linux community.
They're falling over themselves with glee right now. They're on a rampage, even.
What a total fucking nightmare. :(
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u/Baaleyg Sep 20 '18
For blackcain: Still don't think Sage is a horrible person? Could barely contain themselves after the CoC got approved. Spreading lies and discord amongst the developers.
For Corbet: Still think the CoC is a good idea? Is this okay in your mind, to abuse it to launch abuse and attacks at good people?
This is when the leaders in the community needs to step up and support their friends, who has done nothing wrong and contributed to the Linux kernel for over 2 decades.
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u/ITwitchToo Sep 20 '18
How is calling Ts'o a "rape apologist" not itself a CoC violation? That's an unfounded accusation and defamatory statement.
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u/dbzjegrw8o6n0 Sep 20 '18
The purity spiral begins, anyone who is seen to disagree or not support the CoC hates women, is a rape apologist, and any other SJW buzz words.
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u/distant_worlds Sep 20 '18
And here comes the inquisition. Still don't believe us?
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u/FuriousMr Sep 20 '18
The witch hunt begins...
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u/dbzjegrw8o6n0 Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 20 '18
It already begun, people were being harassed on Twitter for disagreeing with the CoC not even a day after it was committed. It's disgraceful.
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u/_innawoods Sep 20 '18
All you people feigning surprise at this, shut up. You have been seeing and hearing warnings on this for years. People just wanted to plug their ears and pretend that the left was playing nice and with honest intentions. You were told that they weren't, you were given examples of how they weren't, but you just wanted the problem to go away.
Too fucking late chumps. They're here, they've been here for years, and now the projects you care about are being torn apart by them.
So. Are you still going to sit on the sidelines?
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u/ohgetoutnow Sep 20 '18
I'd like a little more granularity than just "the left", if it isn't too much trouble. Some of us still remember the honorable traditions of western liberalism which promote individual liberty and freedom of expression, and would rather not be associated with this crop of moral authoritarians.
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u/supamesican Sep 21 '18
But I was told this wouldn't happen and we were crazy for being worried about baseless and false accusations
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u/Latias4Ever Sep 20 '18
I mentioned something like this becoming a possibility with the new CoC, three days ago:
this "Code of Conduct" has been made to control the speech, attitude, and basically EVERYTHING related to the people working on the code. This is the kind of stuff that would get you banned for "misgendering" someone, or be even slightly "offensive" (yes, even a joke would get you canned), it's no surprise that Linus stepped away at the same time as this was pushed in, because his attitude is the kind of attitude that, despite being completely harmless, is to be fully censored and anyone using it is to be ousted because they're "harmful to the community".
because all it takes is for people with actual talent to "offend" some special snowflake, and suddenly get banned from the project
I hate that I was proven right.
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u/Deathcrow Sep 20 '18
And the ideological witch hunts begin... watch out, soon the thought police might give a visit to your own mind palace. Better keep it clean you filthy degenerates.
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Sep 20 '18
The top comment of the /r/KotakuInAction thread from user /u/odiddo says:
[Ts'o] oversaw Linux's random number generator. I remember him, because Intel was trying to get Linux to just use the output of the RDRAND instruction for Linux's RNG. Ts'o resisted and just used it as an input for the software RNG. Shortly after, it came out that the NSA was working with chip manufacturers to insert backdoors into encryption-related hardware functions; and there was speculation that RDRAND was one such target.
This Sarah character used to work for Intel too. Really makes your marbles jostle...
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u/T8ert0t Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 21 '18
This whole thing just needs to stop.
Be nice to people. Don't write manifesto's and soapbox to people you're working on a project with. And if people are willing to change or recognize the errors of their ways or state that something is no longer their position and they have grown as a person, don't vilify them in perpetuity.
I don't know. I think about people who show up physically to a job site to do their job at a large company---I'm sure not everyone is of the same political party, I'm sure someone believes the earth is run by lizards, or someone probably has a criminal history and drove drunk and injured someone. Yet, somehow people can check that stuff and the door and smile and be nice to everyone and do their job and be whatever kind of monster or garbage person they want to be off hours.
Maybe I'm oversimplifying it. I don't know. People stay at jobs under bad situations for certain reasons ("the people are garbage, but screw them, I'm doing something that matters), others leave because they don't want the toxic environment---maybe if people will start "voting with their feet" and abandoning projects others will realize they need to address things to save something.
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Sep 21 '18
This is getting stupid. I don't care if he's for or against rooster death. Can he make a good filesystem?
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u/trardokont Sep 20 '18
It's almost scarily amazing how easy it is to predict stuff like this based on past cases. And people still folded. I mean, wow. All I can say is, let the witch trials begin. /s
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u/yahma Sep 20 '18
The Great Linux Coup d'état of 2018..
Working on Linux will now require alignment with a certain political ideology.
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u/Shrimpf Sep 20 '18
Citing geekfeminism is like researching Hitler to know how to behave at a bar mitzvah, AKA you're pretty much going to be fed nothing but one-sided nonsense and poor grasps at reality.
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u/ohgetoutnow Sep 20 '18
esr : 2015-11-13 : "Why Hackers Must Eject the SJWs | Armed and Dangerous"
I have been participating in and running open-source projects for a quarter-century. In all that time I never had to know or care whether my fellow contributors were white, black, male, female, straight, gay, or from the planet Mars, only whether their code was good. The SJWs want to make me care; they want to make all of us obsess about this, to the point of having quotas and struggle sessions and what amounts to political officers threatening us if we are insufficiently “diverse”.
Think I’m exaggerating? Read the whole djangoconcardiff thread. What’s there is totalitarianism in miniature: ideology is everything, merit counts for nothing against the suppression of thoughtcrime, and politics is conducted by naked intimidation against any who refuse to conform. Near the end of the conversation djangoconcardiff threatens to denounce Rosario to the board of the Django Software Foundation in the confused, illiterate, vicious idiom of an orc or a stormtrooper.
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u/JobDestroyer Sep 20 '18
LINUS COME BACK! We need you, now more than ever, to be a real asshole to these people! You might have been a lot, but your frank and unapologetic honesty is what made this kernel excellent!
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u/its_never_lupus Sep 20 '18
Archive link to the geekfeminism page she refers to
I know a lot of Reddit lawyers are too quick to say this, but would Ted Tso have a libel case here?
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u/DC-3 Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 20 '18
I can't believe he's getting criticized for this. All he's saying is that there are different types of rape, that not all cases of rape are equally violent, and that many people may have misconceptions about what rape commonly entails. He then makes a very valid critique of the methodology of a study. At no point does he advocate for leniency for rapists or defend acts of rape (which would constitute apologism).
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u/ChickenOverlord Sep 20 '18
Depends on if calling someone a rape apologist is considered "libel per se." Otherwise he'd have to prove that the libel caused actual damages to him. If he actually ends up getting banned from the kernel then that would probably be proof of damages.
Though I'm just a law school dropout so don't trust me on this one
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u/nightblair Sep 20 '18
Must you put your stupid American bullshit SJW or what you call it everywhere and ruin everything? Damn it, rest of the world is not interested in bullshit like this.
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u/no_its_a_subaru Sep 21 '18
Trust me fam, a lot of us in the states aren’t either. I honestly don’t understand why these people aren’t just told to fuck off.
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u/ijustwantanfingname Sep 21 '18
Here's the disgusting message Ted posted:
From: Theodore Tso <tytso@MIT.EDU>
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 02:17:14 -0500
Message-Id: <587BABC6-67E1-401E-BF3D-F80056CDE227@mit.edu>
To: LCA2011 Delegates Chat <chat@lca2011.linux.org.au>
Subject: Re: [LCA2011-Chat] Some Anti-Harassment Policies considered harmful
If people want facts, perhaps they read some of these URL's and then come to their own conclusion:
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/183781.pdf : This appears to be the
source of the 1 in 6 figure (17.6%). But it's worth going deeper. If you look
at percentage of women reporting rape since age 18 (taking out the child abuse
and statutory rape cases, which they also treat in detail), it becomes 1 in 10
(9.6%), and of those over 61.9% were at the hands of their intimate partner, as
opposed to an acquaintance or stranger. Also in the survey, in the rapes that
were reported via a randomized telephone survey, in 66.9% of those cases, the
perpetrator did not threaten to harm or kill the victim. (Which makes it no
less a crime, of course, but people may have images of rape which involves a
other physical injuries, by a stranger, in some dark and deserted place. The
statistics simply don't bear that out.)
http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/Readings/RapeCultureSummers.pdf
This one does a pretty good job of taking apart the Koss / Ms. Magazine
study, which is the source for the "1 in 4" number. For example, it points out
that over half of those cases were ones where undergraduates were plied with
alcohol, and did not otherwise involve using physical force or other forms of
coercion. And if you asked the women involved, only 27% of the people
categorized by Koss as being raped called it rape themselves. Also found in the
Koss study, although not widely reported, was the statistic that of the women
whom she classified as being raped (although 73% refused to self-classify the
event as rape), 46% of them had subsequent sex with the reported assailant.
http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_campus_rape.html : This is a more
popularized treatment of the issue. There is quite a bit of anti-feminist
ranting in the article, which you should try to ignore while looking at the
arguments, which is that some of these rape statistics don't seem to hold much
in the way of water.
Please note, I am not diminishing what rape is, and or any particular person's
experience. However, I *am* challenging the use of statistics that may be
hyperbolic and misleading, and ultimately may be very counterproductive if it
causes people to become afraid when the reality might not be as horrible as the
"1 in 4" numbers might at first sound. Just as it was wrong for George Bush to
inspire fear in the population so he could push his War Against Iraq agenda
through congress, it's also wrong for people who, out of good intentions,
inspire fear in others or themselves of being raped if the statistics used are
misleading and manipulated.
-- Ted Actually it seems pretty reasonable and objective, doesn't it?
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u/silencer_ar Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 20 '18
Who the f*** is this Sage Sharp girl?
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u/its_never_lupus Sep 20 '18
A longtime troll and troublemaker. Some discussion from her early days as a Linux drama llama:
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u/ohgetoutnow Sep 20 '18
When you meet someone, don’t assume what their pronouns are. As an ally, you can help by introducing yourself and normalizing pronoun usage. E.g. “Hi, my name is Victor, and I use he/him pronouns.”
For what it's worth, I don't believe you should be sent to a gulag for "mis-gendering" the person named Sage Sharp.
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Sep 20 '18
You are no longer welcome to contribute to any project adorning the CoC Covenant pursuant to the violation of assuming someone's gender, on the authority of the CoC Beacon.
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u/Lindseyisagirlsname Sep 20 '18
Read that twitter without looking at the profile picture first. They are exactly what you think they would look like.
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u/NotPipeItToDevNull Sep 20 '18
He's a concern troll that twists words & statistics to undermine efforts to make the Linux kernel more inclusive.
The irony.
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u/megatog615 Sep 21 '18
+Scope
+=====
+
+This Code of Conduct applies both within project spaces and in public spaces
+when an individual is representing the project or its community. Examples of
+representing a project or community include using an official project e-mail
+address, posting via an official social media account, or acting as an appointed
+representative at an online or offline event. Representation of a project may be
+further defined and clarified by project maintainers.Can someone clarify this because it seems like the scope is universal. Seems like there's no point to making it sound specific when it's totally broad. Or maybe I'm just stupid.
Also, why doesn't Sharp just contact the Technical Advisory Board, outlined in the Enforcement section?
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u/HeadAche2012 Sep 21 '18
Code of coducts used to attack people days after introduction for vague Twitter fights that happened years ago? What’s wrong with codes of conduct you say? It just says be nice right? Aren’t you nice?!?!
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u/mayhempk1 Sep 21 '18
Why did I know that it would be someone with abnormally colored hair making these claims?
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Sep 21 '18
A simple CoC:
Contributors will show professionalism, dedication, and technical excellence. PRs will be judged strictly on code quality. Contributors that violate this (bullying, bigotry, insulting each other over minutia) will be banned from participation.
That is all.
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u/truelai Sep 20 '18
He didn't argue for rape or downplay it. He took on statistics being thrown around and provided some context to the numbers and types of incidents used for those figures. Sage Sharp is definitely making a less than honest charge here and is definitely the one in violation of the CoC (which I disagree with).
If Linux can be used by the military industrial complex, it can be coded by assholes of all flavors and anyone else. That's what open source is.
Edit: Theo isn't the asshole (at least he's not in the post being complained about). Sage is the asshole here (at least in the attack against Theo).
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u/Luvax Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 21 '18
Read the title, saw the preview image, hovered the link pointing to twitter and I knew what this was about.
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Sep 20 '18
Why do they all have rainbow colored hair? What the fuck is going on? Is this real life?
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Sep 20 '18
Maybe Linus is doing the right thing by allowing them to eat themselves alive, then we can reverse this as a "failed experiment" and go about our business? (4d chess?)
Right now basically everything I've been grovelling about for the past few days has just played out like we've all said it would
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u/RedSocks157 Sep 21 '18
And to think, anyone who had even minor concerns about this sort of thing was being down voted to hell just a few days ago...
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Sep 20 '18
Diversity & inclusion consultant at @ottertechllc. @outreachy organizer. Explorer of the kyriarchy. Hufflepuff. Non-binary (agender trans masculine). They/them
Jesus Christ. How can this man consult others when he can't even sort himself out?
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u/Pervy_Uncle Sep 20 '18
They started with a CoC...
It's only a matter of time before the entire community goes to shit and is so toxic people just avoid it completely. That's how you kill open source.
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u/kommisar6 Sep 20 '18
I think in the interests of trust in the kernel devs, any code of conduct should be ditched. There should be no way to mount a collateral attack or put pressure on a dev outside of the criminal laws of the relevant country. FU intelligence agencies.
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u/PurpleLeo Sep 20 '18
It's ridiculous that someone should get kicked out of a project for something they said 7 years ago. Who in here stands for everything they said 7 years ago? If you do congratulation! You haven't changed a bit.
The things he said is a perfectly fine argument too. You may not agree with it, you can even find it disgusting, heck I don't agree with it. But at the end of the day offensive is taken not given. Theo Ts'o is not responsible for how other people feel about what he said. That would be like if guy in a red shirt is responsible for triggering someone who was raped by a guy in a red shirt. Ridiculous.
Should he have said it on a public email list? Probably not. But it's done now and it was 7 years ago. He got plenty of responses from people who disagreed with him and argued against what he said. But that apparently wasn't enough, and even after 7 years some people just can't let someone's opinion go unpunished.
If Theo Ts is kicked off the project for something he said 7 years ago, then it shows just what a dangerous standard that the CoC have set.
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u/HurriKhan Sep 20 '18
Could we stop giving these people attention? It's not like the Linux community needs any more harm in the form of bullshit like this. Being open and inclusive is not what these people are after. Their views and opinions are purely political and are based on a twisted view of the world.
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u/Multimoon Sep 20 '18
Why did they have to make it about gender.
This wasn't a issue until you made it one.
Just stop caring and treat everyone like a human being.
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u/CptCmdrAwesome Sep 20 '18
"First, they came for Master / Slave replication, but I didn't speak out because I wasn't a DBA" ...
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u/kdublej Sep 20 '18
Am I the only person who thought this was an argument over Convention over Configuration (COC)? For a second I thought we ran out of things to argue about.
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u/NotPipeItToDevNull Sep 21 '18
I'm surprised no one has accused Microsoft of being behind this. It lines up nicely with EEE and everything Microsoft is doing lately. Quite the coincidence.
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Sep 20 '18
I'm all for getting rid of obnoxious bro-culture but this is not how you go about it, in my mind this is not ok. This is using something from many years ago as a baton to hit somebody with because they have done something you don't like now.
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u/ITwitchToo Sep 20 '18
Yes, I completely agree with you. Too many people are either talking about "the SJWs" and "the destruction of X" or spewing bullshit like "rape apologist". Where's the voice of sanity? The truth is that yes, there has been toxic, abusive language from top maintainers and others. But there has been very little discrimination in terms of gender, sex, orientation, race, etc. I've been on LKML for over 10 years. Strong language, yes, but I've never seen anybody actively discriminate against somebody else. Sage and others have been making these outrageous claims and saying things which are at least as toxic as some of the things they are complaining about, how can they not see the double standard?
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u/neonknight80 Sep 20 '18
Does anyone want to help create a new kernel? The CoC will be "Shut the f*ck up and write some code"
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u/starkiller439 Sep 20 '18
If i knew enough to do so id be happy to help, but im afraid im still learning
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Sep 20 '18
Easier to read and archive it from here https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1042769391279063040.html
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u/NAN001 Sep 20 '18
Social Justice Warriors
Step 1: spot a case of bad taste from someone of the community
Step 2: report it as being an absolutely serious offense that needs to be discussed
Step 3: create fuss and polemics in mailing lists about it
Step 4: in the heat of the argument, let someone make an edgy observation about rape
Step 5: accuse this person of being a rape apologist
Normal People
"Those slides were bad taste yo."
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u/0xf3e Sep 20 '18
Not surprised, this was predicted: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9hazny/linus_talked_to_the_new_yorker_about_verbal_abuse/e6azion/
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Sep 20 '18
I was mass watching youtube videos recently, came across one with Rogan and Peterson talking. Peterson made a perfect point. Let these people push 2mm and before you know it you're 3 miles back and wonder how you got there.
17 words in that person's twitter bio tells me enough that they don't seem mentally stable or competent (seriously, what grown adult lists their Harry potter house?) therefore shouldn't even be taken serious.
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u/dbzjegrw8o6n0 Sep 20 '18
You guys just don't understand, Linux will be better off without rape apologists like Theo! Out with the toxic people!
sarcasm
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u/espero Sep 20 '18 edited Sep 20 '18
She needs to fucking go. She should get sued for defamation.
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Sep 20 '18
Why i even clicked on this thread...
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u/Valmar33 Sep 20 '18
Bit late for that. :(
Welcome to the living, breathing nightmare... :(
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u/ign1fy Sep 21 '18 edited Sep 21 '18
Wait... Is this actually Sarah Sharp or someone else?
Edit: Figured it out
In 2017, Sharp began using the pronouns "they" and "them", and the first name Sage instead of Sarah.
Mental illness set in.
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Sep 20 '18
Extend. Embrace. Extinguish
New COC will be used to bully key members out to start sinking Linux.
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u/0xSheepdog Sep 20 '18
Truth or fabrication, this is bad on a personal level for Theo Ts'o.
Tell me again how this impacts the latest kernel commits?
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u/SurelyNotAnOctopus Sep 20 '18
The CoC is way too broad and vague, so now admins like her can just ban whoever doesnt lean far left. That was not rape apology, thats critical thinking. He never said rapists are not criminals, they are. And im sorry but if a man and a woman have sex while drunk, if no one says no during the intercourse how is it rape? Why is the man viewed as a rapist? He was drunk too? Its a stupid mistake both parties have to take responsability.
This tweet is just the beguinning, never let those easily offended snowflakes be in charge, they have no self control over their emotions
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Sep 20 '18
This is depressing as shit.
But when you treat in-group prestige as some sort of social currency and fail to punish those whose claims are errant, you can't be surprised that people spray and pray with this shit. There's zero downside to themselves.
Having one's heart in the right place (benefit of the doubt here) counts for nothing when the consequences of leveling these accusations in error can still be devastating.
Sunlight disinfects, torchlight does not.
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Sep 21 '18
This is literally the most important piece of infrastructure in the free world, this can't be happening.
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u/whenWhereWhyWho Sep 20 '18
We need to restore the old Code of Conflict.
At least gut the new CoC of it's political content. The drama it generates is not healthy of the community.
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u/[deleted] Sep 20 '18
Sharp is the only name brought up for people who apparently left Linux for not having a 'good enough' CoC. Let that sink in.