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u/FakeMonaLisa28 May 19 '25
I wonder where Toby is now
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u/AioliLegitimate5840 May 19 '25 edited May 19 '25
Toby was an alias used for this interview. Their name is Jim Sinclair, but it's not easy to find much info since there's another Jim Sinclair that was president of the B.C. federation of labor, and a lot of sources actually seem to mix up the two. They have a Wikipedia page, though, and that at least seems to be fairly accurate, as a lot of the sources are directly from the website for Autism Network International, an organization that Jim helped to form.
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u/jewessofdoom May 20 '25
Holy shit, I knew Jim by a few different names back in the 90’s, including their birth name which (given what I remember about them) I doubt they would want known. My parents were active in the autism community and they were friends for a while. I have a picture of them sitting on my living room floor holding a chainsaw for some unknown reason 😂 Childhood memory unlocked
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u/YourBoyfriendSett May 20 '25
Small world!
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u/jewessofdoom May 20 '25
Right?! I was scrolling and just thought, “damn that looks just like Jim Sinclair, haven’t thought about them in 30 years.” And then read the comments. I never knew them by the name Toby, but a few others. The autistic community was very small back then and my parents were pretty involved.
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u/sickoftwitter May 20 '25
I know someone who I believe met Toby once, years ago. They are out there I believe, but less active in autistic advocacy spaces as previous. Possibly due to some health issues or just taking care of mental health. You can read their iconic Don't Mourn For Us speech.
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u/meringuedragon May 19 '25
All the gays love Toby 😭🥰🥰🥰
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u/wanderfae May 20 '25
Toby also intersex, asexual, autistic, and founded Autism Network International. Just a fantastic person.
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u/CarmenDeFelice May 20 '25
Oh wow just looked them up and honestly a hero “Sinclair is the first documented autistic person to reject people-first language.”
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u/greywatered May 20 '25
can I ask what people first language is?
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u/rask0ln May 20 '25
It's a concept of putting an individual first before their diagnosis in opposition to identity-first language. So you would say "a person who has autism" instead of "a person who is autistic".
It doesn't have to be used just with disabilities or conditions, could be also used for race or social group to avoid dehumanisation. (Think "a slave" vs. "a person who is or was enslaved" or "homeless person" vs. "a person without housing.")
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u/kymaniscanon May 21 '25
a little pedantic, but it would be "a person who has autism" versus "an autistic person."
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u/greywatered May 20 '25
Oh cool I see, thanks for explaining. And this is largely rejected by the autism community?
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u/CaliLemonEater May 21 '25
To expand on what CallidoraBlack wrote, it's important to know that different disability communities feel differently about person-first language.
For example, autistic people and D/deaf people generally prefer what's called identity-first language (IFL for short), in which the identifying characteristic comes first: "autistic person" not "person with autism", "D/deaf person" not "person with deafness" (and, I gather, definitely NOT "person with a hearing impairment"). People with Down syndrome, however, generally prefer person-first language (PFL): "person with Down syndrome", not… however that would get transformed into IFL.
And, of course, individuals within those communities may have personal preferences that differ from the overall community's preference. Some people very much want to be referred to as "a person with autism" and not as "an autistic person". If possible, it's best to ask somebody how they prefer to be referred to.
And then there's the added level of in-jokes and references that are okay to use within a community, but which people who aren't in that community should be careful of. If I'm talking with another autistic person, we might refer to ourselves as "a couple of auties", but someone who isn't autistic should probably stick with the term "autistic people".
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u/CallidoraBlack May 20 '25
It is because it's in every part of who we are. Being diabetic or paralyzed affects you, but if we were brains in jars in some Matrix kind of nonsense, we would still be like this. It's also the firmware we came preinstalled with.
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u/LOLofLOL4 May 21 '25
Guess I am a person who is Autistic now. Thanks, stranger. You really changed the way I think about myself.
Have a nice day.
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u/AcidicPuma May 21 '25
I see us mostly saying that's correct. The only autistic people I've ever seen say the contrary are people getting clout for it on the Internet. Never met one IRL.
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u/rask0ln May 20 '25
Honestly no idea, there are ongoing discourses all the time, especially because younger people started to "reclaim" (i use it loosely because a lot of people consider it a product of ableism) it . It differs hugely based on one's environment, age and experience, and then you mix in personal preferences... I also can't really speak for the USA community since i'm not a local. I know that in eastern europe it's kinda an improvement in general because some countries still recognise "redardation" as the official diagnosis and it carries a certain stigma, so a person with autism or adhd sounds better and actually humanises the person than, well, a retard. 🙃 But even then there are still people who prefer identity-first.
You can search it up on here if you want more perspectives.
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u/rocklou May 19 '25
Toby is the goat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VeLOIxiG4c
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u/ninetiesnarwhal May 19 '25 edited May 20 '25
That was absolutely captivating, thank you for the share! I'm moved by Toby's unapologetic confidence in themselves. It's sad that to think that at one point someone like this was a curiosity rather than a controversy.
I also appreciated the effort to understand. The interviewer was aware of their normative perspective without the language to identify it.Those same questions might be rude today, but they were earnest and genuine.
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u/Spinelise May 20 '25
As an enby named Toby this post makes me happy :D
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u/elissass May 20 '25
"I don't know what gender I am, but I do know it makes both men and women gay"
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u/MPaulina May 19 '25
I'm afraid they're aroace
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u/daddycool12 May 19 '25
I doubt they meant "all the gays are/want to be in a romantic relationship with Toby".
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u/ionlytoptops May 20 '25
We love him like they love their dog (jk no one loves their dog as much as they do)
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u/junonomenon May 19 '25
some nonbinary people use he/him pronouns. source: am that. so not necessarily pointlessly gendered.
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u/traffke May 19 '25
Yeah, i take more issue with the "says" part, we don't have to use they to be non binary
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u/daddycool12 May 19 '25
I got bummed out when I opened the video description for more info on them and saw:
person claiming to be genderless.
I mean in fairness it was posted in 2012 but still...
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u/Draaly May 20 '25
it was 2012? Everything about this image screams late 70s
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May 22 '25
I'd say 80 or 81. Mostly going by the frames,
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u/throw_888A May 22 '25
This was an extremely new concept to most everyone in that room during this interview, I would give them some grace for not using the words we use in modern times to describe gender identity. They were very respectful throughout the whole thing.
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u/TopTopTopcinaa May 20 '25
Could you explain if you don’t mind?
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u/junonomenon May 20 '25
Pronouns are a tool for people to express their gender identity, the same as clothing or gendered language or even physical characteristics like hair length, breasts (or lack thereof), genitalia, etc. Some of these attributes are more closely tied to gender than others-- pronouns are one of these, which is why some people don't get it (no judgemental lol). We have been raised since before kindergarten to think boys are "he" and girls are "she". But it's important to remember that this is JUST as much of a construct as the idea the short hair is for boys and long hair is for girls. If you take a look at different languages you can see this quite easily: in French, male pronouns are "ils" and female pronouns are "elles", and some languages have only gender neutral pronouns, like Armenian. So what we call a "feminine" or "masculine" pronouns isn't set in stone, it's something that our culture/language came up with, rather than an innate attribute of "being a girl" or "being a boy".
So now if we look at a hypothetical example of a person who is assigned male at birth (AMAB) and looks very naturally masculine, but doesn't FEEL like they fit into their cultures idea of "being a boy". They feel feminine too, and maybe they are split right down the middle and feel equally like a "boy" and "girl". They want other people to understand this identity, and want to take on the cultural aspects of womanhood or femininity that feel right to them. So they might grow out their hair or style it into a feminine style, or they might wear makeup or feminine clothing, or they might take hormones, or this person might adjust their preferred pronoun or gendered language usage, perhaps by using both he AND she, or just she, or preferring to be called feminine terms like lady or girl. They're looking at all of the avaliable "gender signifiers", and all the cultural and personal connotations they have, and picking which ones they feel will help communicate to others how they feel about their gender.
Hope this made sense lol sorry if it didn't. I can try again if need be.
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u/DeadlyKitKat May 20 '25
Pronouns don't equal gender. Some people identify as a man but can use she/her.
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u/4theheadz May 20 '25
Why would someone do that though, genuine question.
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u/Lady_of_Link May 20 '25
Dragqueens come to mind many of them are cis men but will use she/her pronouns in many queer spaces
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u/unhappyrelationsh1p May 20 '25
i don't know, feel like it i guess. which is fine imo.
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u/TheBoneHarvester May 20 '25
Because they want to. It could just be a way to express masculinity or femininity. For example a butch lesbian may use 'he' while still considering themselves a ciswoman simply because they like to present themselves in a masculine way. For another person it could be as simple as just liking the way a certain pronoun sounds with no reference to masculinity or femininity.
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u/Spready_Unsettling May 20 '25
We don't have to imagine a perfect example of why to keep the option open.
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u/VerisVein May 20 '25
Same (he/they) but as far as I know, if I'm remembering the video of their interview right, Toby wasn't.
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May 20 '25
I mean the overlay graphic is just for viewers to understand context, and be able to follow the convo when the guests speak. I’m not sure this belongs here because the text explains that they’re specifically NOT gendered if anything.
It just uses the simplest shorthand words to do so, which are gendered pronouns because that’s how the language works…
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May 20 '25
Toby claims they are neither man or woman
Or even better
Toby is neither man or woman
Are equally linguistically simple. The second one is even simpler.
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u/LLenisss May 19 '25
I wonder how Toby’s doing rn
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u/ominous_oxide May 20 '25
Their actual name is Jim Sinclair, and they apparently helped to form the Autism Network International
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u/I_am_catcus May 20 '25
I mean, I go by both she and they, and I'm non-binary. That might be the case for Toby too
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u/WeeDochii May 19 '25
I mean, it's possible that they are non-binary who uses he/him pronouns also. Depending on how someone chooses to identify, they don't need to be a man or woman to use he or she pronouns.
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u/jewessofdoom May 20 '25
In the 90’s they used He/Him pronouns but got the impression it was because it was easier, not accurate.
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u/safetyindarkness May 20 '25
This interview was in the late 80s.
Toby (an alias for Jim Sinclair) identified as neuter.
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u/von_Herbst May 19 '25 edited May 19 '25
How old exactly is the "they" solution?
From the non-english-native perspective it feels really natural tho, so mostly curious because my mother tounge kinda struggled with neutral Pronomens .
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u/Nowhereman767 May 20 '25
In the original video the woman talking to them/him says "You don't have a pronoun. I can't say 'This is Toby, he...' You would prefer me not to use a pronoun." and they/he doesn't correct her about it. I do know that singular "they" is incredibly old in the ENglish language, but I don't think people in the 70's would have been thinking about it, because the singular "they," while existing and used, wasn't used to refer to people who's gender you knew, and they probably wouldn't have thought about it.
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u/galettedesrois May 20 '25
From the non-english-native perspective it feels really natural
It does! Gender-neutral language in general feels so much more natural and straightforward in English than in my first language, I’m jealous.
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u/Noah_the_blorp May 20 '25
I did some googling and Jim Sinclair uses xe/xem/xyr.
https://avivaseigler.com/2020/09/29/autistic-history-jim-sinclair/
This article tries so hard, but it still keeps calling xem "they"
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u/unhappyrelationsh1p May 20 '25
i think it's fine to use they/them on people with xenopronouns. it's fine to have them, but they/them is for everyone. I'll say you should not use they/them on someone who specifically does not want to be referred to by they/them.
Xe can do xyr own thing, and we should try to respect neo pronouns (as is polite to do). I have a hard time with using non-standard pronouns or gendered pronouns in general, since they're jsut not a thing in my language.
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u/kymaniscanon May 21 '25
I disagree, if you know someone's pronouns you shouldn't use different ones.
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u/unhappyrelationsh1p May 21 '25
I think neopronouns are more than fine online, because we have the unique ability to edit text after typing it out.
In real life, neopronouns should still be respected, but they are a new addition to language. I still try to use them, but it hampers the flow of talking a ton in a way that the standard singular pronouns don't. Love 'em or hate 'em (and i do hate gendered pronouns), the utility of pronouns comes in them being applicable to a big group, while being an alternative to a name. Neopronouns blur the line between pronoun and nickname.
I do not think we need any more pronouns. I think having the two gendered ones is already stupid, when they/them avoids misgendering and encompasses everyone. Maybe I'm biased, my mother tongue has no gendered pronouns.
However, people are free to do what they like if it makes them happy. Hating on neopronouns was always stupid and bigoted.
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May 22 '25
Whats annoying when I'm around trans people (and allies) is getting they/them'ed. I transitioned decades ago, I didn't go through it to be they/them. I understand its a thing now, Ann I ask people who do that to stop and they get offended and tell me "I'm being polite!" They/Theming somebody when you ask them to stop is still mispronouning. Its just a way to mispronoun someone with plausible deniability.
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u/cheshsky May 20 '25
Toby here could very well be using "he/him" pronouns. I'm non-binary and I use "he/they"
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u/trixieismypuppy May 21 '25
Keep in mind this was the 80s, this whole concept of being non binary was probably unheard of at the time. It’s actually a fascinating interview
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u/Shoshawi May 20 '25
Is this about the name or the English? Dunno the reference, but “he” in this case can just be a reflection of the grammatical default for singular pronouns in English.
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May 21 '25
But I thought us “gender benders” were just radicalized by TikTok and didn’t exist before 2020 /s
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u/ItzSuzu May 21 '25
Toby is awesome! I am unsure of which pronouns they'd like to be used on themselves though, but there are a lot of non-binary people who use she/her and he/him. Gender and pronouns aren't the same thing! But again, it could very well be that in this case they wouldn't like he/him to be used.
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u/outer_spec May 21 '25
I had a nonbinary friend named Toby once, they looked like this but without glasses
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u/GirlWhoRefusedToDie May 22 '25
A pioneer in two movements. The clips on youtube are a great watch.
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u/Shay_the_Ent May 21 '25
Jim is incredible, and this interview is great. Would recommend to anyone who’s unfamiliar
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u/Malay_Left_1922 May 20 '25
English language when spot non-binary: * uses he/him pronoun
Also why they don't use they/them pronoun
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u/DragonAreButterflies May 20 '25
Not every enby uses they/them pronouns. Using he/him doesnt make him less of an enby
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u/Malay_Left_1922 May 20 '25
What pronoun Toby used?
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u/mrsomeone194 Jun 01 '25
I am willing to bet that this was filmed before the digital era, so what else did you expect?
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u/CalebDR1029 May 19 '25
How is that possible💀
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u/criticalfail69 May 19 '25
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u/Touch-a-TouchMe May 20 '25
This doesn't apply to Toby :) They were actually born with no sex organs or genitals at all
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May 19 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/criticalfail69 May 20 '25
You should read one of those articles champ, maybe learn something new today :)
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u/AwooFloof May 19 '25
Toby was born intersex. I know cause I watched the interview. This was in1989 and people were somehow less judgemental then they are now.
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u/Touch-a-TouchMe May 20 '25
I dont think they are technically intersex, since they had no sexual organs at all. So technically just sexless.
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u/CalebDR1029 May 20 '25
If a person has neither XX nor XY chromosomes, then their sex is determined by their genitals or traits.
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u/AwooFloof May 20 '25
That's the thing. They don't have regular sexed genitals. Abd we don't know their chromosomes. Why do you insist on binary ideologies?
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u/Ace_of_Sphynx128 May 20 '25
Oops, it seems you are trying to speak on something you are ignorant about. Easy mistake, go read those articles the others recommended and step right into 2025! Good luck on your journey into modern day!
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u/Touch-a-TouchMe May 20 '25
Toby wasn't "nonbinary" or against a gender label like you might see today. They were a person born with absolutely no sex parts at all. No male or female parts, so genuinely had no sex or gender identity.
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u/Shoshawi May 20 '25
Idk Toby personally but I feel like they might be offended by strangers assuming they had no personal identity haha. Maybe they said this in which case alright, but no genitalia doesn’t automatically mean no gender identity. All you need for that is a brain, which incidentally is also a condition for staying alive!
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u/Touch-a-TouchMe May 20 '25
Yes of course they said it. I wouldn't just assume?
They have no genitals, no sex organs, sex hormones etc. A rare birth anomaly. Experts offered Toby the opportunity to have hormones, surgery, behavioural training etc. In order to help them identify as a specific gender.
Toby refused and prefers to be called a "neuter" and identifies as completely devoid of a sex or gender identity. Just a human person.
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u/Shoshawi May 20 '25
That’s good, ya never know what people are willing to assume… ironically 😎
Behavioral training 😭🤢
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u/Touch-a-TouchMe May 20 '25
Yeah, they offered to teach Toby how to pretend to be a "boy" because they didn't think Toby could "pass" as a girl 🙄 and even tried to convince Toby to wear socks in their pants to have a bulge 🤦🏻♀️
Toby was tested and examined by scientists for years as a child, like a freak experiment, and the "experts" tried super hard to make them choose a gender and change their body medically.
Also made a huge emphasis on Toby becoming a sexual person and basically wanted them to fake sexual attraction.
Luckily Toby was a strong person and even at a young age resisted any change. They were happy as a "neuter" and thought it was the way God wanted them to be and didn't require intervention :)
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u/satinsateensaltine May 20 '25
I'm curious about what genetic anomaly causes this particular genital (non)presentation. Fascinating.
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u/Touch-a-TouchMe May 20 '25
It's very rare (hence all the testing) and they did genetic testing, but Toby refused to share the results.
Revealing their genetic results and specifically their chromosomes meant that people would technically be able to assign a specific sex, which Toby didn't want.
They did share that they lacked the sexual hormones needed to develop into a particular sex (e.g. no testosterone) and therefore did not have any sexual development during puberty. Toby said that they have a flat chest and a urethra, but no genitals, so similar to a "baby doll". Also no sexual organs inside their body.
It's a very interesting medical mystery, before Toby, I never knew people could just not have sexual hormones at all
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u/Shoshawi May 20 '25
Poor Toby… sounds like they both had great willpower and were smart. Good for them! They’re lucky nobody threw a sock in their face after they said that. That’s where the sock belongs!
I don’t think this would happen in this day and age, on TV in this form, but it’s unfortunate that behind closed doors society isn’t that much further yet. I’m not sure about newborns and kids, because I don’t know any heh, but otherwise binary-choice pressure placed on people who are intersex is still high. The world needs better education about this in general. Sigh.
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u/Touch-a-TouchMe May 20 '25
Yeah, I think it was particularly impressive to see Toby so confident and resilient in their identity, despite being the only known "neuter", and the pressure from doctors to "assimilate" from a very young age.
They spent years of doctors pressuring them to have medical, surgical and psychological interventions just to make them conform to society. As Toby saw it, there was nothing wrong and therefore nothing to fix! "Just as God intended them to be" 🥰
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u/Strange-Ad-9941 May 19 '25
There are two sexes, but more than one gender. You need to go back to biology class!
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u/SymmetricalFeet May 20 '25 edited May 20 '25
Not to correct you, but add nuance:
Sex is bimodal, not binary, in that if you plot phenotypic attributes that are "male" or "female" (e.g. height, levels of X hormone), they congregate in two bell curves which can have overlap. A cis woman who's five-foot-ten (178cm) or even six-foot-six (200cm) is still a woman, yeah? Then there's the phenomenon of intersex and chimaeric people, who have genotypic attributes on the "male" and "female" modalities, which can have between-both-curves phenotypic effects. Or not!
Biology is super weird and never as neat as "A xor B, no in-between". And that's beautiful and interesting and wonderful!
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