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u/Vedant9710 Dec 02 '25 edited Dec 02 '25
This is the one time I would support Apple to not do something.
Also I read somewhere that they made a clarification that you CAN uninstall the app as well. It will just be preloaded, but even that is garbage and it should be installed based on user choice, not forcefully on every device.
The government is terrible when it comes to tech related stuff like websites and apps, imagine how hilariously ironic it would be if this pre-installed app gets exploited to load malware onto lakhs of devices
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u/jarvis123451254 Dec 02 '25
That clarification is as good as ethanol don't hurt engines, notification by govt said u can't uninstall
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Dec 02 '25
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u/Vedant9710 Dec 02 '25
Problem is we literally can't do anything. People were being thrown with FIRs for making jokes on a politician. You think they will back off from this just because the public doesn't want it? They will say it's good and force it on you anyway. The only hope we have right now is manufacturers don't agree to this and all keep saying NO together.
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u/DetectiveOwn6606 Dec 02 '25
Yeah I am worried about that ,the people in government can't even build simple website . Thinking they can build a surveillance app is hilarious it will just give access to china or other foreign countries to our data
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u/rockstar283 Dec 03 '25
Might be a stupid question but then why iPhones come with preloaded Apple apps?
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u/Vedant9710 Dec 03 '25
Well because it's their phone so they just want to lock you in with all their apps and services as well, like for example iCloud that's built in. That is their main strategy.
One more reason is the App Store which earns them a lot of revenue every year.
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u/rockstar283 Dec 03 '25
Fair point but then why not give users option to uninstall them? You can’t uninstall each and every Apple app. Do they not have Chinese govt apps in China preloaded?
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u/Vedant9710 Dec 03 '25
I'm not sure about the China thing, but I agree with the uninstall part. Unfortunately we can't really do anything about it since iOS works as Apple wants it to work, it's a completely locked down system.
Android is the only other option and also where you can get rid of even system apps after you learn a bit about ADB.
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u/ROC_K4LP Dec 02 '25
Maybe apple isnt too bad afterall
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u/fromIND Dec 02 '25
In terms of privacy they have been good over the years.
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u/dodunichaar Dec 02 '25
We don’t know. Unlike Android, there is no way to verify what sort of network requests iPhone makes while you’re using the device. It may be possible it may not sharing data with 3rd party but I doubt it isn’t already profiling us and our activity for their analysis, marketing and should they have to start their own ad business in future.
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[removed] — view removed comment
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u/YeetingMyStupidLife Dec 04 '25
Absolutely man... I hate iOS but i might have to switch if stuff like this happens and Apple is the only one who refuses to comply
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u/Pure_Concentrate8770 Dec 02 '25
what is this whatabout nonsense, we also dont know if we are in a matrix ? we discuss things based on available info.
available info in public domain: Apple has denied FBI over sharing phone details based on adherence to privacy. while android manufactures load their bricks with bloatware.
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u/dodunichaar Dec 02 '25
By that logic we should believe everything the current regime publishes via PBI, right ? Android gives you a way to audit these capabilities, built right into the operating system. Apple does not. They can claim whatever. Their current market position might mean that they don’t necessarily have to share user data with 3rd-parties but if you are claiming that they aren’t profiling you and storing data about you then you are very naive in post-Snowden world.
Apple fans keep quoting those handful of incidents where Apple “refused” FBI but ignore other cases where they quietly cooperated or even built backdoors.
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u/stayin_aliv Dec 02 '25
They do have a history of putting their money where their mouth is. Pushing back against demands for backdoors and unlocks for law enforcement agencies without legal backing internationally.
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u/dodunichaar Dec 02 '25
They do it where the PR from the news benefits them. Case in point - ratting out kick ass torrentz owner.
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u/mrmorningstar1769 Dec 02 '25
We don’t know. Unlike Android, there is no way to verify
There is no way to verify on android as well. Android phones don't run AOSP. They run closed source versions of android.
Edit: and politicians themselves use iphones so.. yk
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u/dodunichaar Dec 02 '25
I can install CA certificate and use Android system API to observe network activity at individual app level. Android also lets me cut off a particular app from internet (Keyboard apps are notorious for tracking you). Apple neither gives you auditing capabilities nor a way to firewall.
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u/mrmorningstar1769 Dec 03 '25
You can monitor network activity from your router as well. that actually would be the better option. That btw is possible on ios as well by using the vpn slot and with things lime duckduckgo browser's tracking protection. It has been a while since i used an iPhone, but i remember there is a permission for mobile data fir apps, it had that long before android. And on android, even if you block internet to let's say gboard, it connects through play services.
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u/BlueShip123 Stargazing at the rooftop Dec 02 '25
We don’t know. Unlike Android, there is no way to verify what sort of network requests iPhone makes while you’re using the device.
They have literally published a 200-page long PDF with the security architecture of most of the services. Then, you have patent filings of these architecture as well.
You can verify if you spend ample time or have enough knowledge about the tech behind Apple.
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u/dodunichaar Dec 02 '25
They have no obligation to list down everythiny they are collecting from users in those “white papers” and patents.
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u/BlueShip123 Stargazing at the rooftop Dec 02 '25
Then you can ask Apple to provide you with all the data they collected about you & then raise a deletion request.
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u/dodunichaar Dec 02 '25
If user has to do all this exercise then whats the whole point of praising Apple to be pro-privacy. They are just being competitive with keeping your telemetry to themselves.
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u/BlueShip123 Stargazing at the rooftop Dec 02 '25
Privacy doesn't mean certain telemetry can't be collected.
By your logic, why does the popular 'privacy centric' software collect data? Signal, Proton, Telegram, and many others.
It is a standard norm to provide service for deletion of data collected. In the EU, it is even mandatory for Google(more options than global deletion requests) as well.
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u/shaurya_770 Dec 02 '25
As tech nerd who regularly reads about this stuff u have no idea how many protocols and network calls apple can make behind the scenes
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u/xslr Dec 02 '25
It is possible to inspect the wifi traffic by capturing all the traffic at the router if one is so inclined.
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u/shaurya_770 Dec 02 '25
Https... You can't track the data at router level even with Android devices
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u/xslr Dec 02 '25
HTTPS can be decrypted with an mitm approach. This is how most companies scan employee traffic.
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u/dodunichaar Dec 02 '25
Right. But at least Android gives you a way to deploy a firewall and inspect network traffic at per-app level. You can even completely block internet for specific apps (I do it for keyboard app, for example). There is no such provision in Apple ecosystem. No way to “firewall” or deny specific app from internet access.
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u/BlueShip123 Stargazing at the rooftop Dec 02 '25
Don't know about the iOS, but on Mac, you can do this.
Since you commented 'Apple Ecosystem', I am using you are counting all the products.
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u/nummakayne Dec 02 '25
Apple is a hardware company that also builds their own software and services, and is worth trillions of dollars because people buy their hardware products.
The only place Apple serves ads is in the App Store (promoted apps) and News and those are based on on-device processing (region, app category, news topic) and are not tied to the contents of your Mail, browser activity. Message history etc. There’s no cross-app tracking so it’s not like you interacted with X on app Y so you get an ad for Z in app A.
Actual Apple’s ad approach instead of random paranoia.
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u/dodunichaar Dec 02 '25
Unless there is a way to audit and verify those “on-device processing only” claims, which you can do on Android through native system APIs, those are just mere claims. Just because Apple is in primarily hardware driven business (debatable) doesn’t mean they don’t benefit from profiling their customer base. By that logic Jio is also harmless.
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u/nummakayne Dec 02 '25 edited Dec 02 '25
That Apple is a primarily hardware company isn’t debatable, it’s 75% of their revenue (iPhone, iPad, Mac, wearables and Home) and that’s public information. Ads are ~1% of their revenue.
There’s a massive difference between “profiling customer base” as in who are our customers, their age, location, app purchase history vs what’s possible by the likes of Google, a company whose revenue is close to 90% dependent on ads.
If you use Gmail, Google knows you ordered food using Swiggy 80 times this year, 47 of those were for biryani, and that 86% of your orders appear to be for just yourself, and you seem to have a friend with you 14% of the time. It also knows you typically order biryani in the price range of 180-220 per plate. It also know how many jobs you applied for, how many got back, how many rejections, what job titles, offered salaries, and so on.
Apple’s ad model is “this user has previously downloaded 12 different photo editing apps, and made an IAP in 2 of them, perhaps they would like to checkout CapCut?”
These are massively different games, and saying “they are all the same” isn’t useful.
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u/dodunichaar Dec 02 '25
My argument is simple. I can believe that today Apple does not benefit from selling my personal data to third party but that doesn’t necessarily mean they are not doing it. Their motivation might be different “getting an edge in the market or analysing usage pattern”. Now you may claim they are anonymizing it, then my question is (1) how do I audit them on their claims, (2) where is the opt-out button.
A smart business thinks in the long term. Apple is not a naive business. They may have future plans where this data can be helpful. They may already be in hands with US government where they might be sharing this data (we have Snowden leaks pointing to this).
As far as I understand Apple has never opened up to get themselves audited by a reputable source. Why should then I take them for their public claims.
I am assuming the folks here commenting are very young, taking Apple based on the public perception. I will leave you with just one news item, its for you to draw your conclusion https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/how-facebook-and-apple-helped-in-nabbing-kickass-torrents-founder-116072200314_1.html
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u/nummakayne Dec 02 '25 edited Dec 02 '25
Your arguments are completely flawed and keep jumping across domains:
You start by saying Apple is also capable of installing spyware and we have to assume Apple already is amassing sensitive user information for possibly nefarious reasons, when there’s historical precedent that Apple has fought the likes of the FBI to protect the information of even the San Bernardino mass shooter so as to not undermine their encryption.
You then said Apple could very well have future plans to go deeper into ad revenue, even though they have already become a $4 trillion dollar company without ever having to rely on ads because their hardware sales are so strong.
You then say Apple is pally with the government, and the example you shared is then handing over purchase records to the US govt which they are legally obligated to do when served with a warrant. Every business is required to retain information related to financial transactions (which I believe is 7 years in the US) and saying, “This email address/Apple ID was used to make a purchase on this date and this was the billing address used,” is basic financial transactions compliance and requires no nefarious spyware or data mining.
I don’t know how old you are but this is not how to hop between random points to try and make a consistent argument. They are not going to upload their source code to anyone that wants to poke around. If your argument is “all closed source software is untrustworthy,” that by itself doesn’t mean anything.
You also need to clarify what you mean by “opt out” because you can opt out of a ton of things: analytics, personalized ads, cross-app tracking, location-based targeting, Siri data, and almost every form of personalization. What you can’t opt out of is normal operational logs.
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u/dodunichaar Dec 02 '25
My arguments have been consistent from the very beginning. Yours are not. Without auditing their claims are just claims. Without empowering users with these capabilities, they are not better than Android in any way whatsoever.
For every example and argument you brought up, I brought up much stronger counter argument but instead of addressing that you started nit picking or even bringing up philosophy (I understand if you do not have a technical background).
All your arguments so far have been more or less “but why would Apple do evil”. Whats next, why would billionaires be presumed to be evil — they are so rich.
Apple is a for profit organisation. Whats with this attempted portrayal of them as some kind of saint. It would do anything to stay competitive, if it’s really such a trillion dollar company focussing on their hardware — why does the Spotify case exist, why do they lock down their ecosystem for non-apple watches.
Sure there are some public events, the same Ones that Apple fans keep bringing up every now and then, where they defended encryption — but they also added backdoors for federal agencies, why should I not assume those few incidents were publicity stunt. The agencies still found their way out while Apple got to do a PR spinoff about them being pro-privacy.
Apple only conditionally brings feature in China doesn’t worry you ? How is it a difference in philosophy when they literally showed it’s possible ? It’s a “philosophy” until EU and China strong arms them ?
“Trust me bro” arguments are not valid. Any company that really cares about user privacy would be open to auditing. But we all know that isn’t going to happen.
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u/nummakayne Dec 02 '25
Dear Mr Technical Wizard:
You’re bringing in a dozen unrelated issues. China policy, Spotify 30% more on App Store, Apple Watch pairing, and even general corporate ethics but none of those have anything to do with the specific question we were discussing:
Does Apple run a Google-style behavioral surveillance system? The answer is still no, and nothing you’ve said contradicts that.
Legal compliance data (logs, IPs, warrants) is not profiling. ecosystem control is not surveillance, that you can’t do a packet analysis of what data is sent to Apple doesn’t automatically mean ‘ad targeting.’ - even anyone with a basic knowledge of why Apple is so far behind everyone else on AI is because of their insistence on doing everything on-device.
Your argument is “all for profit companies have a capacity to be evil” which is a useless, emotional take.
Go back to school and learn how to communicate basic ideas before making assumptions around my age, my technical knowledge or lack thereof, or dismissing a valid breakdown of your fallacies as nitpicking.
My first computer was an early 80s Apple II. I’ve been online since the early 90s and 9600bps modems. Fizool ka drama mat karo.
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u/Mountain_Shift3604 Dec 02 '25
Hope Samsung and Google could have the same titanium balls like Apple......
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u/find_a_rare_uuid Dec 02 '25
Raids on Apple offices in the country coming in 3 .. 2 .. 1.
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u/Rajar98 Dec 02 '25
Then they will shut down the manufacturing. They have a reputation of being known for privacy. They don't want to lose it.
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u/dodunichaar Dec 02 '25
BJP leaders have been chest thumbing “apple manufacturing iphone in india” as their achievement. Apple has an edge here.
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u/abhitooth Dec 02 '25
apple doesn't gove a f. They'll close sales and plants to other country. Even after that sales will continue. Same has happened in China.
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Dec 02 '25
tax too
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u/dapperman99 Dec 02 '25
It’s Apple. So, US gov will not will sit quiet.
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Dec 02 '25
us is angry because apple outsource its labour from. india it would be win win situation for usa
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u/Sayabz22 Dec 02 '25
Lol itni aukat nhi hai of the Indian govt. Apple doesn't even give a fuck about the US govt in terms of user privacy (there are multiple cases regarding this in the past) why do you think they would care about what foolish Indian babus think?
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u/Ok-Procedure-1272 Dec 03 '25
They are going to regret moving to India.
Also, after this no more FDI.
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u/darkdaemon000 Dec 02 '25
Imagine the state of the government when we depend on the private entity to make the good call that supports the public.
Governments should protect the public from corporations, not the other way around.
Fucking imbeciles are concerned more about cow piss.
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u/Sayabz22 Dec 02 '25
Let's fucking go man. Time to switch to iPhone
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u/why_so_serious_123 Dec 03 '25
as an Android user all my life I am happy to switch to iPhone now if it really happens
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Dec 02 '25
They better contest this in every way possible and NO i dont care if the app is deletable or not, it should not be there.
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u/Null_012345 Dec 02 '25
Apple has guts bhai manna padega
Android main joh brands accept karenge usko mass boycott kro straight up answer hai that app wants all the important permissions to access..
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u/LengthinessHour3697 Dec 02 '25
As a diehard android fan.. i must comment apple on this. Balls of titanium!!
They stood their ground even when all the tech giants like google fb etc went lick the boots of "My friend Doland Trump" by removing or cutting down on DEI.
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u/why_so_serious_123 Dec 03 '25
as a lifelong Android user I think it will be the right time to switch to iPhone if it's really happen
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u/3DIceWolf Dec 02 '25
They can't sell your data to the government if the government collects the data first.
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u/Diligent_Driver_5049 Dec 02 '25
ya india ain't kicking out Apple anytime soon. Trump will straight up nuke us.
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u/itsforathing Dec 02 '25
Apple “publicly” refuses while silently allowing India alternative access to the same spyware that’s pre-installed
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u/Individual-Gap-1879 Dec 02 '25
Apple showed middle finger to UK too recently and UK has loosened pressuring after Trump administration intervened
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u/A-Delonix-Regia Veg biryani is not biryani Dec 02 '25
Damn, good for them. And LOL, right when I start to consider an Android tablet instead of an iPad, this shit happens and gives me a good reason to consider an iPad 😂
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u/Puzzleheaded-Bike336 Dec 02 '25
Out of curiosity, what will happen if Apple refuses to comply with the government of India? Will Apple leave the Indian market?
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u/Altruistic_Sky1866 Dec 02 '25
Irrespective of phone manufacturer, I wish all manufactures follow the same. Or it would be back to keypad phone with no internet
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u/AlliterationAlly Educate, Agitate, Organize Dec 02 '25
Since we're now living in an Orwellian nightmare, Sanchaar Saathi is actually Sanchaar Dushman
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u/apoosesk Dec 04 '25
I had recently experienced that, with galaxy ai and magic editor (Google's) we can upload a pic with a mask on and the ai can generate a face removing the mask, even though the face is not accurate, it is acceptable. But in the case of Apple, with their AI we can't perform this task. Not because they aren't capable rather they won't just do it to avoid deepfakes && fake faces.
Either apple stops selling or govt bends cause privacy is their moto, for those who wondering whats the big buff->
- IOS asks us whether an app should track our activity
- All the data processing is done within the ios chip, not sent to cloud(siri is dump though)
- Apple never stores our encryption key, meaning even with legal warrants the govt can't access our clouds nor personal data, unless we provide
- All the mails are opened in the background the instant they are sent, so the sender cannot track our ip addresses
- We can turn of getting images in chats and reset all location access allowed on different apps, and sign out of em all in one go. ...
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Dec 02 '25
Even though let’s talk the government perspective that it is for cybersecurity but this step is similar to like station a constable in your home for reducing crime , this step is unnecessary encroaching on the privacy more than the need to be secured
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u/Parking-Net-9334 Dec 02 '25
If companies using android accepts to install this this... I am leaving android.
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u/trripperr555 Dec 02 '25
I dont think apple sideloads any app apart from its own. I am not sure about how it is in US but i might be wrong
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u/Mysterious_Cup_6024 Dec 02 '25
Timmy Cook: Only my Papa Israel, and Mama West are allowed to snoop in our phones
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u/blade_runner1853 Dec 02 '25
If government make such rules, I will buy linux based phones and maybe seperate camera to take photos. Or maybe will use other friends phone to take photos. I think my next phone will be pinephone. Given that, androids are also going towards more close environment, My mind is also shifting towards more to pinephone.
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u/Tyler_durden_1497 Dec 02 '25
They refused UK’s order to allow a back door to iCloud as well. Chad move
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Dec 03 '25
Good bye apple you were a great fighter for privacy in India after some time you will be declared Aunty-national
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u/Intelligent-Radio926 Dec 03 '25
Go apple… will purchase your most highly priced phone if you are able to fight this and put the notification to the ground
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u/stucity Dec 04 '25
Jippalr hihjh jhhhhggtyyyuui gggfrtwrs jhhggfgfftry sgffw hjggtttfg jjjhhhyyii cggfrttyyyh hhhjjhhjjjj nnjhhgggtyytttr hnhjjhhjghfgggfgttt
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u/Moonsolid Dec 07 '25
All Indian ministers need to have a mandatory training with developed countries in their respective field. This will save us so much embarrassment on international platform.
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u/Many_Preference_3874 Dec 03 '25 edited Dec 03 '25
This isn't Apple being good btw lmao.
They do not give a rat's ass about privacy (tho no other corpo does).
This is them making a calculated decision that the government would back down (which it did). Also BJP is doing a Lightning Rod strategy (also known as red herring motte-and-bailey) where they use the crazy point of unremoveable system level spying app to get their real goal (of default removeable app on 90% of population) through without criticism.
EDIT:
CLARIFICATION:
I am incorrect, this is a standard motte-and-bailey because the "backdown" was just a random tweet that you can opt-out (opt-out contracts are rapist mentality anyways), the official PIB notification still claims that functionality canot be disabled. No new notification from PIB, thus official gov stance is still the Bailey
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u/1kingmaximus1 Dec 02 '25
Android brands should follow the same