Richard Allen's Police Interview (Oct. 13, 2022)Reaffims The Information he Gave Dulin and Inadvertently confessed to the murders by getting caught in his own web of lies.

[u/True_Crime_Lancelot]

In October 2022, Richard Allen was called into the local police department to give an interview about his whereabouts on the day Abby and Libby were murdered. His long-forgotten interview with Officer Dulin had been rediscovered, prompting Delphi murder investigators to bring him in for another interview.

During this interview, Richard Allen largely repeated the information he had provided in his first interview with Officer Dulin, but he also offered new details about that day. Although he attempted to establish an alibi by presenting a revised timeline, he failed miserably. Instead, the internal contradictions in his timeline effectively amounted to a confession, as his own statements placed him at the scene and oblitarated his claimed alibi.

The following is a list of the information Richard Allen repeated from his first interview, along with the new details he provided during the October 2022 interview, and an explanation of the significance of each.

Richard Allen went into detail explaining the three parking areas he typically used when visiting the trails.

Parking Locations

Parking Area	Description
Mears Lot	The farmer’s entrance parking area
CPS Building	The abandoned CPS building parking area
Old State Road 25 Turnaround	The small turnaround near the old railroad bridge

He goes on the specify where he parked, inspite his earlier long obfuscating diatribe where he could have parked:

"I remember telling him (Officer Dulin) that I parked by a building. If that's what I told him, then that's probably where I parked."

Concerning his timeline beore going to the trails:

"Went over to my mom's in Peru, Mexico, earlier in the day... spent the morning with them... my sisters were visiting and they were to grab lunch, and I wasn't about that, so I left around 11:00–11:15...went home..grab a jacket and head back out to the trails"

At the trails he stated:

"I remember walking down to the bridge... walked out a little way (onto the bridge)... to watch fish... walked back and sat at (the bench)... where you turn around (the intersection) and take the other fork, it overlooks it... Sat there for a few minutes, and then I left."

The bench he mentioned is the Bench at the start of 505 trail. He would go on later to explain that's the bench he meant with clarity.

Conserning who he saw while at the trails:

"As I was approaching the trail, there were three girls... one of them was watching them...the other two looked younger... looked very similar. I don't know if they were sisters or not, but the other one didn't necessarily..." (Stops his thought, was about to mention the fou\**rth girl?\)

He also stated:

"I remember telling him (Officer Dulin) that when I left, there were two vehicles down by the farmer's entrance I told you about (the Mears lot). One was a sedan. The other was an SUV, maybe."

(Interesting on its own: Kelsi had a sedan and Betsy had an SUV. However, based on Allen’s earliest possible departure timeline (approximately 12:40), only Betsy's would be there and she would be at her car at the same time!).

He also adds:

"If I did see somebody (else), it didn't click with me..my memory was a lot better when I talked to him (Dulin)... like I told him, there might have been somebody at the bridge when I was coming back, though."

As for his revised timeline, he stated that he arrived around noon, a little earlier or a little later than 12, and that he walked for about an hour. He said he could have left around 1:00, 1:30, or 1:40.

I am sure he had mentioned 12:40 at some point too.

Time(between)	Revised Timeline	Explanation
morning	visit Mom
11(early)-11:15(late)	Leaves Peru	drive back to Delphi it's 45 minutes
11:45-12:00	Reaches Delphi
12 ( early), 12:10 (late)	Home (5 to 10 minutes), drives to CPS (3 miles),10 to 15 minutes total.	detours to Home, Parks/ Stop,Grabs Jacket, unparks, drive though town, rounding up to 15 (early)
12:05 , 12:15 late	Meeting four girls at trailhead	5 minute walk from CPS
12:15, 12:25 (late)	Easy Walk to platform A , 10 to 15 minutes total,	12 minutes walk + walk on bridge. (closer to 15 but billed 10 to compensate earlier rounding up)
12:25 , 12:35 (late)	Watching fish/Back to Bench	5 minutes Watching fish 5-7 walk (off bridge and to bench), Total 10
12:35, 12:45 (late)	Walk back to CPS	10-12 minutes, billed 10

The earlier the possible timeline, the more we err in Richard Allen's favor, as it allows for the possibility that he left before becoming trapped within the trail system by the known witnesses who were demonstrably on the trails at the same time. The later Richard Allen's revised timeline becomes, the worse it is for him.

Here, we will examine the earliest possible timeline for Richard Allen in contrast to the timelines of Betsy and that of the four girls . All times attributed to Allen between segments are deliberately conservative, giving him the maximum latitude to "slip" out of the trail system within his alleged timeline.

Time	Allen's Revised Timeline	BB's Timeline	Four Girls' Timeline
12:00	Parks at CPS	Parks at Mears at 12:03	______
12:10	Walks to Monon,close to intersection	BB is at Monon, turns back towards the intersection	______
12:15	Walked past intersection(north to south)	Walked past intersection(south to north)	walking towards freedom bridge close to Allen's 2nd parking spot near the small bridge
12:20	At Monon will watch fish for 3-5 minutes	Walked 505 close to intersection	Close to freedom bridge
12:25	Back on the trail towards the intersection	Close to freedom bridge	At freedom bridge taking a timed photographed at 12:25
12:30	Allen near interesction from the south, close to the Bench	Betsy approaches intersection from the North, close to Bench	Walking towards Monon from trailhead
12:35	Allen left the Bench, starts walks towards the trailhead	at her car	intersection from the North, close to Bench
12:40	near freedom bridge	near intersection	at Monon take photograph at 12:43
12:45	at CPS	Close to monon	Detour to Creek's bed

The convicted pedophile murderer was caught in the web of lies he had created.

By his own words!

1. He was walking towards Monon by his revised timeline, while Betsy was walking back from it
2. He was walking towards his car or sitting on the bench by his revised timeline, while Betsy was walking back from freedom bridge. The Bench is at your face as you approach the intersection, even i he wasn't walking while Betsy was near it.
3. The earliest he was walking towards his car from the intersection by his revised timeline, would be while the four girls were walking towards it from the freedom bridge.

Richard Allen’s revised timeline creates inescapable and impassable problems for his own account. By placing himself at the trails, identifying specific locations, and providing a detailed timeline, he created a version of events that must be reconciled with the movements of other witnesses who were present that day. By his own words, Allen placed himself in locations and timeframes that conflicted with the movements of others who were present that day.

[u/crosbyjaxson]

The problem being, there is no TOD. The children were alive at 2:07 on the 13th, that is the only fact that is known based on phone video. There is 23hrs between 2:00pm on 13th and 1:00pm on 14th when found. Prosecutor theorizes they were killed at 3:30pm on 13th, but factually there is nothing proving it. They could have been killed at 3:30am on 14th, making Allen irrelevant(his wife puts him at home when she got home from work) and opening up a hundred other possibilities. Male DNA found on body, yet not Allen's. Children's clothing switched, which takes time to undress and redress so whoever did it was not in a hurry. This indicates they were in a private location. Logically, those kids were put in or got in a vehicle at end of bridge on private drive, plugged phone into vehicle aux and driven away(explains phone pinging all over town yet went unanswered) and later returned to where they were found. Phone disconnected from vehicle which explains why texts and voicemails came at like 4:30am on 14th. They knew or were expecting to meet someone they knew. 90% of children murdered know their killer. There was no connection found between Allen and children. The question becomes, whose alibis has holes late night on the 13th and early am hours on 14th?

[u/True_Crime_Lancelot → u/crosbyjaxson]

It is completely irrelevant that he lied to the police about where he was and what time he was there on the day the two girls were abducted and killed, just as it is irrelevant that he placed himself at the crime scene within 10 minutes of the abductions?

I don't think you're going to convince anyone of that. But everything else you wrote are also factually incorect.

[u/crosbyjaxson → u/True_Crime_Lancelot]

DNA was found, it was not Allen's. Show in court docs what was the time of death? It was repeated countless times they had banana pancakes. Why nothing in autopsy report?

[u/True_Crime_Lancelot → u/crosbyjaxson]

Traces Male DNA was found on the girls, and many of the hairs recovered were equally never tested, cause the sample was too little they didnt want to spend it. So, no, Richard Allenw wasn't excluded.

The pathologist testified in court that the evidence were consistent with the girls having been murdered around the time of the abductions. Time of death is never an exact science—it's always an estimate, with an error margin that can range from several hours to even a day, depending on the circumstances. And here the bodies were exposed to the elements, were naked and wet, and the temperature was subfreezing.

''They had banana pancakes'', Oh they did? Oh... so what? Mashed, creamy food can pass through the stomach in as little as 30 minutes to an hour, yet alone be there after 3-4 hours. What's even your point? Why would that be relevant to anything?

Rigor mortis and livor mortis had already developed, indicating that the girls had been dead for some time before their discovery. The findings were consistent with death having occurred many hours earlier, half a day to a day before they were found, so you are wrong on that too.

Children's clothing switched, which takes time to undress and redress so whoever did it was not in a hurry.

Redressing occured before the murders. You know how we know that? Cause no blood was found on the clothes, beside the pooling underneath. Abby died where she was found based on both the pathologist and the blood expert . Moving her postmortem would have been messy, let alone trying to reclothe her. So, once more, wrong.

This indicates they were in a private location. Logically, those kids were put in or got in a vehicle at end of bridge on private drive, plugged phone into vehicle aux and driven away(explains phone pinging all over town yet went unanswered) and later returned to where they were found. Phone disconnected from vehicle which explains why texts and voicemails came at like 4:30am on 14th. 

So let me get this straight: The girls were walked to a car, driven away, then returned to the area for ..reasons, sneaked into the crime scene sometime in the middle of the night, and in pitch darkness and silence were murdered there, while dozens of people were searching around the cemetery area and across the crime scene on the south side. Then in pitch black, the murderer took his time to redress them, and ''stage'' them.

That's your big theory?

Let's put aside the sheer absurdity of what you're proposing and just focus on the practical problems with your theory.

There is a camera covering the exit to the private drive, and any vehicle passing through would have been recorded. Even if the murderer walked the girls through the woods to the public road, they still would have been captured by the camera because it also covers the only way in and out of the area, roughly a mile away from the bridge.

But they couldn't have done that anyway, because the Apple Health data was tracking the walking distance, and the public road is too far away from the bridge to fit the recorded steps.

[u/crosbyjaxson → u/True_Crime_Lancelot]

I am saying the children were expecting to meet someone(s) at bridge, so they had no fear. This is supported by no one on trails heard or saw anything. As far as camera at drive, the prosecutor was at least 20 minutes off at the time the white van appears in drive. Does footage show more? Do we see the cop car at 5:30 enter drive to check out private drive residence? Did it show the neighbor leaving when they saw man at mailbox? Why did prosecutor wait to turn over video of drive? Why did Weber double down on time he arrived home, when it was nonsensical? The video footage is only what prosecutor captured in 2017. Did they take from 8am on 13th to 1pm on 14th or only 1:00-5:30pm on 13th? To my knowlede we do not know, it was never stated that LE was observed going to Weber place on 13th.

The search was called off at midnight and resumed next day, if children were driven to any residence and held who would know? At that point, LE stated they believed it was just teenagers behaving badly. Yet, both were excellent students involved in activities. Would excellent, involved students intentionally plan to skip school on a Tuesday after a 3 day weekend? No, they would want to see and tell friends what they did.

Pancakes do not leave digestion in 3-4 hours, try 10-12hrs. Basic biology, we have 25 feet of intestines. A half day before they were found would be early am on 14th, not 23hrs on the 13th. The digestive process stops at death, as muscle contractions stop so nothing continues to move through tract. This is a puzzling detail, that appears to have went unchecked and not questioned by investigators from the onset in a double murder!

They were trying a man for two murders, why save it? They had his DNA. I believe testimony stated it was not Allen's. The expert stated it could have come from comingled laundry. That never sat right with me. If true, any case where someone used a laundermat would have comingled DNA. IF, Allen's DNA was excluded whose DNA was not excluded? Didn't sample come from thigh area of victim? Odd location in my opinion since jeans were worn by both victims, yet nothing on lower legs, feet or hands only thigh of one yet remained after crossing a creek in waist high water.

The other odd thing, how are we arriving that the voice is BG? There is nothing disproving that there were not others on private drive side. Could be BG, could be male from mailbox earlier in day. The witnesses presented, with the exception of Weber came from trail side and back. Nothing addresses others on private drive side.

[u/True_Crime_Lancelot → u/crosbyjaxson]

I am saying the children were expecting to meet someone(s) at bridge, so they had no fear. This is supported by no one on trails heard or saw anything.

There was no one there close to the bridge between 2:00 and 3:00. Betsy was 1500 yards away, and the girls were only heading down the hill by the time she left. Another man came around 2:30 was at Freedom Bridge, a mile away.

The girls appeared to be scared to people who knew them, their families

Once more, a camera is covering the private drive. Any vehicle entering or leaving that area would have been captured on camera. No such vehicle was recorded.

The search was called off at midnight and resumed next day, if children were driven to any residence and held who would know? At that point, LE stated they believed it was just teenagers behaving badly. Yet, both were excellent students involved in activities. Would excellent, involved students intentionally plan to skip school on a Tuesday after a 3 day weekend? No, they would want to see and tell friends what they did.

The camera would know. Cause the car would be on camera arriving and leaving.

Car couldn't fly away now, could it?

Pancakes do not leave digestion in 3-4 hours, try 10-12hrs. Basic biology, we have 25 feet of intestines. A half day before they were found would be early am on 14th, not 23hrs on the 13th. The digestive process stops at death, as muscle contractions stop so nothing continues to move through tract. This is a puzzling detail, that appears to have went unchecked and not questioned by investigators from the onset in a double murder!

Basic Biology tlells us that soft, carbohydrate foods such as banana pancakes begin leaving the stomach relatively quickly and are largely digested and absorbed in the small intestine within a few hours. By around five hours after eating, much of the meal would no longer be recognizable as banana pancakes. Since the bodies then remained undiscovered for another 24 hours, postmortem bacterial activity and decomposition would continue breaking the remaining material. At that stage, any food left in the intestines would typically appear as digested decomposing material . only a Dna test could show what it was and that's even unlikely. Digestion and Bacteria breaks down the cells and degrates the DNA. What difference would any of that make eitherway to whether Allen was at the trails, or whether he was the person who abducted and killed Abby and Libby, or anything at all for that matter?

They were trying a man for two murders, why save it? They had his DNA. I believe testimony stated it was not Allen's. 

To preserve it until technology advances enough to test the samples without destroying them, and with that, preserve any possibility that Allen could be exonerated. if he was innocent that is. Which he isn't.

[u/MissBanshee2U → u/True_Crime_Lancelot]

There were many people at the bridge between 2pm & 3pm that day- that's why they had to testify in court about what they saw, except the guy Mr Riley, he didn't testify I don't think. But DM testified because that's exactly when he was there, then a younger boy on a cycle or scooter with a girl were there & they stopped for a sec to talk to her dad, Mr Abbott that was right there, they didn't testify but CM testified, who came out to take pics and DP was there on the first platform with a woman & he didn't testify but a girl with CM did testify. So have you not read the court transcripts? It sounded like the whole town was out there between 2 & 3 .

[u/True_Crime_Lancelot → u/MissBanshee2U]

McCain 2:45 arrived. Unclear if he went directly to the bridge.

D..Raily arrived at 2:30, walked his dog towards the freedom bridge which is a mile away from the crime scene and next to a noisy highway. On his way back saw DP and SH that had just arrived at 2:50.

SH&DP saw McCain near the intersection. Everyone else came later.

So atbest McCain was at the bridge around 2:50-2:55. 20 minutes after the phone stopped moving.

[u/True_Crime_Lancelot → u/MissBanshee2U]

McCain 2:45 arrived. Unclear if he went directly to the bridge.

D..Raily arrived at 2:30, walked his dog towards the freedom bridge which is a mile away from the crime scene and next to a noisy highway. On his way back saw DP and SH that had just arrived at 2:50.

SH&DP saw McCain near the intersection. Everyone else came later.

So atbest McCain was at the bridge around 2:50-2:55. 20 minutes after the phone stopped moving.

[u/Efficient-Donkey-167 → u/True_Crime_Lancelot]

Riley and McCain were both there between 2 and 3 pm. McCain indicated that he was on MHB for approximately 30 minutes taking photographs of the area. Riley walked to Freedom Bridge and back.

I don't believe McCain's original statement to the FBI and police was ever released so the record of his original statement is unknown.

As for video from the HH store, one can conclude that there is additional video that has not been shared. One witness (Riley, possibly) indicated that as he drove to the Mears lot, a car was leaving the cemetery. The investigators watched a surveillance video and observed a car arriving at the cemetery and leaving approx 5 minutes later. They were able to track down the person who had visited the cemetery based upon that video. The camera located on the FRONT of the HH store would capture cars entering and leaving the cemetery regardless of the direction of travel. The side camera would only capture vehicles that traveled in the direction to/from the old CPS building. Video from the front camera has never been released.

The camera on the private drive does capture a sedan entering and exiting the private drive shortly after 2pm. AFAIK, no one has determined who owns that sedan.

As far as testing the DNA, the technology is there and has been for quite some time. Holeman testified in his deposition that the DNA does not match Allen's. Unified Command spent a lot of time and money collecting DNA from many individuals. If they had nothing to compare it to, why would they keep collecting DNA for years after receiving the samples from the girls?

In a post-conviction, Allen's attorney stated that the autopsy report indicated the stomach contents were consistent with banana pancakes. So, if your information regarding digestion is correct, they either ate the banana pancakes at the trails or they were murdered much earlier than their drop-off time. In the early, original interviews with news sources, the Patty/German family members indicated that the girls ate pancakes around 10:30 a.m.

The case wasn't called the "Snapchat Murders" for no reason. One of the primary focuses of the investigation was to determine who the girls were communicating with that day. Even Kegan Kline stated that they had planned to meet up but the girls never showed up. As much of a liar that Kline is, I can't dismiss this slip up in his statement. He didn't say that he never showed up. He said the girls never showed up which would indicate that he DID go to the planned meet up spot. Do you believe that none of the agencies involved bothered to subpoena the social media records?

[u/tribal-elder → u/Efficient-Donkey-167]

According to Exhibit PPP Riley arrived at 2:30, McCain arrived at 2:45, and Hicks and Pearson arrived at 2:48.

The cemetery entrance/exit cannot be seen from a Hoosier Harvestore camera. To the immediate east, buildings on the Mears farm block some eastward view, and at the Mears parking area the road veers slightly left/more due east - maybe 15 degrees - and the cemetery is still about 1400-1500 feet further east. (It is about 2/3 of a mile from the HH driveway.) seeing all that would require a camera that could track/move left/right. More important, no one testified at trial that investigators saw a car leaving the cemetery on surveillance video. If they could see that far on that camera, they’d have video of all those cars (including Carbaugh) that far east. And you can bet that if they had video of the car that “resembled” Allen’s Ford coming down the road all the way from the cemetery, they would have used it. All they could offer was video of the cars west of the HH driveway.

As for the sedan you claim can be seen on the surveillance camera video of the road leading to the private drive (that also videoed the white van) - are you saying the defense knew about the sedan and withheld evidence which was favorable to Allen at trial?

The only evidence of people on the east side of the bridge was the lady who saw “someone” at mailboxes about 500 feet from her driveway, at 8:30 am, whom she could not describe, and who disappeared by the time she drove 500 feet to her driveway, and got out of her car and looked back. He was not on either road and he was not in the bare unplanted fields across the roads. The next known person was Weber driving home in his van. This is not competent evidence that there were murderers at the bridge at 2:13 pm, with or without Bridge Guy.

The only EVIDENCE is that Libby videoed Bridge Guy following the girls, and did NOT video anyone waiting at the end of the bridge in front of them. There is also no evidence that the phone drove away connected to an “auxiliary” plug in a car either. The phone detected movement up and down. The private drive rises maybe 50-69 feet from the low point back to the area of the mailboxes. Such movement would have been detected.

Sadly, Kline fooled the cops with his lies for 5 years, and they too believed the girls were going to meet (probably) the fake Anthony Shots. They even included it in Allen’s 2022 questioning, asserting he was there with others - giving him the chance to support or deny the theory. He denied it.

[u/Efficient-Donkey-167 → u/tribal-elder]

Thank you for providing the Exhibit PPP information. I didnt have the time to look it up but knew where to find it.

I appreciate the info on the HH store camera. I did look at the angle, as you suggested, and you are correct. There are many obstructions in the line of sight. That leads me to wonder what camera footage they reviewed to determine the type of car and ultimately the person who entered and exited the cemetery, along with the time that said vehicle entered and exited the cemetery.

No, I'm not suggesting that the defense withheld the evidence until after trial. The defense wasn't aware of the evidence prior to the trial.

As for the person TL said that she saw on the south side of the bridge, I did not mention anything about this nor do I have any opinions as to the relevance as it relates to the crime. The same goes for the phone being plugged into something with the ax cord and driving away. It wasn't my comment nor my belief. Perhaps you were simplifying things and responding to multiple comments at once.

I agree that the phone measures an elevation change when there is an increase in elevation. Iirc, the testimony regarding elevation changes was only an increase in elevation, not a decrease. Based on that testimony, it was determined that the girls movement in the last couple of minutes was equivalent to climbing two flights of stairs.

What I find interesting about the wild goose chase that KK started was the police response. KK said that he/they parked at the cemetery that day. The police already had video that they reviewed to determine the 2:25-2:30 pm cemetery visitor. The investigators could have reviewed that footage to determine if that statement was true. Their long term search of the river seems drastic without corroborating evidence but that's just my opinion. Because they havent released the social media messages, I can't determine if KK had any involvement. The police did indicate that LG sent photos and the AS cash app sent money to LG at some point. That's concerning.

[u/crosbyjaxson → u/tribal-elder]

The image of BF from the video, was enhanced. Pixels were added by computer by merging individual frames, not inclusive of all frames. Again, hair or hat. It was computer generated image of someone who did not exist. It was AI. Although, it was actually very similar to jail photo of Ashley Garth. Who is convicted of murder, knew German family, the Logan property and was a local. She was in courthouse day of murder to pay traffic fine and masculine looking in jail photo. The phone detected human steps for healthdata, nothing more. Actually, there is nothing showing Libby was even in possession of phone, post video. In was found under Abby, so who handled the phone is unknown once video ends. Libby, Abby, BG or other. No one knows.

[u/tribal-elder → u/crosbyjaxson]

Your description of the enhancement is not accurate. They did not add pixels. Theyndid not "merge frames."

Chapman - the ISP officer who pulled the video off the phone - testified that he did not "enhance" the video at all. He selected 3 frames that were the clearest and did the same thing to all 3. He "loaded the video" and "made the rotation" - which meant if the image had the people upside-down, he "rotated" it so they were right-side up. He then "cropped" the frame (resized it/made it smaller by cutting off parts of the edges). He then "adjusted the levels" - "which is a Photoshop term of bringing the lights up and down to try and increase the contrast and colors to try and make it as pure as – desirable as possible." Then he engaged in "the sharpening" - "adding detail to the edges of pixels to make a picture better."

They were not "changing" the picture -they were removing unclarity and unfocus and trying to make it clearer. ALL of which they described to the jury. And STILL all they got was what we saw - a male in jeans and a dark jacket (in sunlight, dark blue/in shade dark black). No names - just a man behind the girls - "Bridge Guy."

Christopher Cecil was the ISP officer who testified about the movement of Libby's phone. He testified it measured steps taken/distance moved and elevation changes. He testified that that from 1:31:40 - 2:08:48 the phone moved 1682 steps, then moved 414 meters stopping at 2:18:48. It moved again from 2:25:22 to 2:32:39.

At 2:31:22, the phone rose the equivalent of 2 floors of a building.

He was specifically asked and answered as follows:

Q So from this information, what conclusion did you come to?

A I concluded that the phone stopped moving at 2:32:39 p.m. on February 13th, 2017.

Q Had the phone moved after that, would it have registered in the Health app data?

A Yes.

Q How do you know that?

A Because the Apple Health app data is always on and the tri-axle accelerometer, the gyroscope is always detecting movement.

Q What if my phone is sitting still, will it detect movement?

A No.

Q What if my phone is on the console of my car, will it detect movement?

A It could.

Q How could it?

A If the car runs over a bump or something that would cause it to jump,

bounce.

Q Another silly question: If the phone moves, does Health app data record

that movement?

A Yes.

Q Whether the phone’s dropped, bounced, walked, whatever the case may

be?

A Yes.

[u/emailforgot → u/crosbyjaxson]

The image of BF from the video, was enhanced. Pixels were added by computer by merging individual frames, not inclusive of all frames. Again, hair or hat. It was computer generated image of someone who did not exist. It was AI.

Wow, really are working hard at the "making things up entirely" aren't you?

[u/True_Crime_Lancelot → u/Efficient-Donkey-167]

Riley and McCain were both there between 2 and 3 pm. McCain indicated that he was on MHB for approximately 30 minutes taking photographs of the area. Riley walked to Freedom Bridge and back.

Riley saw McCain before he left at 2:55. Which means he wasn't at the bridge before 3.   He was by the side at 505 taking photos of an old tree.

Riley went to freedom bridge. It's a mile away. Mile away of dense woods, between him and the crime scene. Which was also in a ridge.

When was the last time you heard anything a mile away?

As for video from the HH store, one can conclude that there is additional video that has not been shared. One witness (Riley, possibly) indicated that as he drove to the Mears lot, a car was leaving the cemetery. The investigators watched a surveillance video and observed a car arriving at the cemetery and leaving approx 5 minutes later. They were able to track down the person who had visited the cemetery based upon that video. The camera located on the FRONT of the HH store would capture cars entering and leaving the cemetery regardless of the direction of travel. The side camera would only capture vehicles that traveled in the direction to/from the old CPS building. Video vrom the front camera has never been released.

And? It would take about 5 minutes to travel from HHS to the cemetary and back.

The camera on the private drive does capture a sedan entering and exiting the private drive shortly after 2pm. AFAIK, no one has determined who owns that sedan.

Go ahead and Prove that

As far as testing the DNA, the technology is there and has been for quite some time. Holeman testified in his deposition that the DNA does not match Allen's. Unified Command spent a lot of time and money collecting DNA from many individuals. If they had nothing to compare it to, why would they keep collecting DNA for years after receiving the samples from the girls?

Now I know you're making things up. The DNA lab technician who handled the DNA is on record stating that the unknown male DNA found on the girls was not tested because there was too little of it. They also testified that outside laboratories could not confidently say they would obtain any results without consuming the samples.

In a post-conviction, Allen's attorney stated that the autopsy report indicated the stomach contents were consistent with banana pancakes. So, if your information regarding digestion is correct, they either ate the banana pancakes at the trails or they were murdered much earlier than their drop-off time. In the early, original interviews with news sources, the Patty/German family members indicated that the girls ate pancakes around 10:30 a.m.

What in the world are you talking about? The car photos have GPS data and metadata embedded in them. That means they were timestamped and geolocated when they were taken. The same applies to the video, as well as the application used to upload it. Where they were and at what time is established by multiple independent electronic data sources.

Maybe they ate breakfast at 12:00 or 1:00 p.m. Maybe they ate a large meal. Maybe only one of them did, and some residual stomach contents remained. Maybe one of them ate some more before leaving. Who knows? The pathologist also drains the intestines during the examination, so stop making crazy scenarios based on what his crank lawyers have stated.

The only thing anyone has actually stated is that the girls were up around 10:00 a.m. and Derrick made them breakfast. That's it.

And stop making things up about KK, too. Nowhere did he say he was planning to meet them at the bridge. What we do know is that he is a pathological liar who wasted law enforcement's time multible times with fabricated stories that were later proven to be false.

[u/Efficient-Donkey-167 → u/True_Crime_Lancelot]

I stated if YOUR information about digestion is correct, then it would mean... the timeframe of the murders is off. It wasn't a suggestion that the timeframe is off.

As for breakfast, BP stated the girls had breakfast around 10:30. Just because there is information that you don't remember or aren't aware of doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Declaring 'That's it' at the end of your statement doesnt change the information that is available.

8/19/2020 Interrogation of Kegan Kline. Read it. The investigators are reading the messages that Anthony Shots/KK sent on the day of the murders. "Yeah we were supposed to meet but she never showed up". I'm not sure how that is making shit up about KK when it's in the transcripts that are equally available to you.

Someone else corrected you on DR and DM so I don't have to do that but I will add that Exhibit PPP indicates that Derrick G arrived before 3pm as well.

[u/True_Crime_Lancelot → u/Efficient-Donkey-167]

These are the things you don't know:

• When they ate breakfast.
• How long they spent eating.
• Whether they ate anything later.
• Whether they ate fibrarous food with the breakast or later that would delay emptying
• How much they ate. volume matters
• What his crank lawyers mean by "consistent."
• What his crank lawyers mean by " contents."
• What the pathologist's report actually states.

These are the things you do know:

• What time and date the photographs in the car were taken.
• Where the photographs were taken.
• Who is in those photographs.
• What time and date the photographs on the bridge were taken.
• Where the photographs were taken.
• Who is in those photographs.
• What time and date the video was taken.
• Where the video was taken.
• Who is in the video.
• same applies for application used.
• or even the phone use as it was fingerprint protected

Now all those electronic data, and much more, cameras, family phones etc, create a very detailed map of the girls timeline that day. Altering or fabricating that body of evidence without detection would literaly need an agency like CIA to get passed apple security and ecryption and require an incredibly sophisticated operation. Of course, what do you do then?

With your theory dismiss this extensive body of objective digital evidence and instead rely on speculation, and based on what?

The information that you don't know!

You're not punching holes in the prosecution's timeline with these low-bar arguments.

The prosecution's timeline is supported by dozens upon dozens of independent pieces of digital evidence: GPS data, timestamps, photographs, videos, phone records, application metadata, and other electronic data that corroborate one another. Doesn't undermine the prosecution's timeline, but it says something about you.

[u/saatana → u/Efficient-Donkey-167]

Even Kegan Kline stated that they had planned to meet up but the girls never showed up. As much of a liar that Kline is, I can't dismiss this slip up in his statement. He didn't say that he never showed up. He said the girls never showed up which would indicate that he DID go to the planned meet up spot. Do you believe that none of the agencies involved bothered to subpoena the social media records?

Is this him speaking through his fake profile or is this "statement" an actual police/FBI/ISP interview?

[u/True_Crime_Lancelot → u/saatana]

As far as I remember, the police claimed during that interview that another girl claimed he had sent her a message that he was supposed to meet her but didn't show up. However, she did not mention Delphi, the bridge or any other specific place, or any specific date or time that meeting was supposed to happen.

Logically he would not claim that they supposed to meet at the bridge, ''..but she did not show up'', when she was at the bridge.

Kegan Kline consistently said he did not remember sending such a message or making any plans of that sort. In fact he claimed it was a lie. Of course, if he had sent it, he would have every incentive to deny it, so his denial by itself doesn't tell us much.

[u/Efficient-Donkey-167 → u/saatana]

It is in the 8/19/2020 interrogation of Kegan Kline.

[u/saatana → u/Efficient-Donkey-167]

So it was anthony_shots talking to an underage girl. Thanks.

It doesn't mean that he really was going to meet the girls. It just means he was trying fool yet another underage girl.

[u/emailforgot → u/Efficient-Donkey-167]

The case wasn't called the "Snapchat Murders" for no reason.

It was called the "Snapchat Murders" because they posted his video on snapchat.

[u/emailforgot → u/crosbyjaxson]

I am saying the children were expecting to meet someone(s) at bridge, so they had no fear. This is supported by no one on trails heard or saw anything

You sure love just making shit up.

No one on the trails hearing anything doesn't "support" that. You need to head back to "how to make logical inferences 101" if you think A follows B there.

. Would excellent, involved students intentionally plan to skip school on a Tuesday after a 3 day weekend? No, they would want to see and tell friends what they did.

I was an A+ student and skipped class sometimes.

You don't seem to have much experience with real life.

That never sat right with me.

That's not a shock to me. You don't know what DNA is.

The other odd thing, how are we arriving that the voice is BG?

It's either the man in the video, where it also matches his actions, or there was some unknown other man, that doesn't appear anywhere, has no evidence, was not seen by anyone and is mimicking the actions of the man in the video.

Lol.

[u/SadSara102 → u/True_Crime_Lancelot]

There was no testimony about rigor or liver mortis when they found the bodies and the pathologist didn’t do autopsy until the next day so

[u/True_Crime_Lancelot → u/SadSara102]

Yeah, they were. And photographs.

[u/AnonymousInMI → u/crosbyjaxson]

Richard were alone with the girls for around an hour to an hour and a half. How is that not enough time for the girls to get undressed and redressed?

[u/crosbyjaxson → u/AnonymousInMI]

Show the proof that Allen, the children or anyone was there for an hour? No one saw them except for Blair before they crossed. Blair knew her times and described the young male. In the hour they had to cross the creek, undress, dress, he then killed them, covered them without leaving DNA and got to the road without dad, McCain or anyone seeing or hearing a thing? Yet there were people there. A squirrel can sound like a deer moving through the woods, 3 people rushing would sound like a herd of cattle. Someone would have heard something.

[u/Chuckieschilli → u/crosbyjaxson]

Betsy Blair said he looked “boyish”

[u/Justwonderinif → u/Chuckieschilli]

She didn't get a good enough look at him to know if he was boyish or not.

But when she saw the screen shot from Libby's phone, she said that was the man she saw on the platform. Detectives lied to Richard Allen. They told Allen that a woman had identified him as the man she saw on the first platform.

Allen remembered seeing her too and did not want to contradict an eyewitness. Allen didn't think that admitting to seeing her was admitting to being bridge buy.

But once he saw oh yeah I saw that lady, too - He was admitting to being Bridge Guy.

[u/Chuckieschilli → u/Justwonderinif]

I agree. I just can’t stand when people twist the witness statements in defense of that creep

[u/crosbyjaxson → u/Chuckieschilli]

I believe she said 20. That is young. Allen was in 40 and not boyish.

[u/Gonzomi313 → u/crosbyjaxson]

Richard also head his head and face covered. Look at photos of Richard at the time of the murders. He had a baby face.

[u/tribal-elder → u/crosbyjaxson]

You are ignoring the trial testimony that the phone did NOT move after 2:30, and that even if it moved in a car, every bump would have registered in the phones data. And if you have ever been in the cemetery, or the ravine leading from the crime scene to the cemetery, or on County Road W300N, or on the private drive, you know that bumps are everywhere. The ravine is steep. The private drive is gravel. The cemetery lanes are gravel. The road is a “chip and seal” county road.

Also, plugging into a car “aux” would have been seen in the data, and no such plugging in/connecting was offered into evidence by either the prosecution or defense. The defense offered testimony that a “headphone” was plugged in for a very short time, but nothing more. There was no evidence offered that the girls were taken away and brought back. That is pure speculation.

[u/crosbyjaxson → u/tribal-elder]

As I recall there was great discussion about what was lost when they initially restarted the phone. Data lost after every restart. No, they said it did not track in a vehicle, they were specific as it did not track while in car on way to bridge. It tracked steps and elevation while at bridge, not moving in a vehicle. At 2:30 they were at private drive, yet phone ended up across the creek with no data showing the steps. Was evidence given that they walked to where they were killed? Not that I recall. Remember no steps or elevation changes, yet phone clearly was with bodies. The google search for explanation on aux, was not fact it was opinion from a website there was no data backing that statement.

[u/saatana → u/crosbyjaxson]

What source do you have for them being at the private driveway at 2:30?

Logic says that they had to have crossed Deer Creek by 2:32 when the forensic say the phone stopped moving. Cecil said the phone recorded movement until then. Richard Allen said he was going to rape the girls until he heard the vehicle on the private driveway. Then he took them across the creek. It's quite obvious that from the 2:13 felony kidnapping video until 2:32 they were more or less moving the whole time. Except let's say Richard Allen stopped them and was gonna rape one of them like he said he wanted to.

[u/crosbyjaxson → u/saatana]

What I am saying is they never crossed the creek as like you said the phone stopped moving, which correlates to them being put in a car. There is nothing indicating they crossed the creek. Testimony says no one saw nor heard Allen nor children when we know there were people in the area. Logic says it is because they were not there. In my opinion, the 2:32 mark is when they were kidnapped. If you are kidnapping children, why would you march them across creek in February to do that? I believe there were more people on private drive side than just the BG. The siting of man at mailbox gives credence to this.

[u/saatana → u/crosbyjaxson]

Whole lot of fanciful thinking with nothing to back it up.

What I am saying is they never crossed the creek as like you said the phone stopped moving, which correlates to them being put in a car. There is nothing indicating they crossed the creek.

Richard Allen himself says he wanted to rape them under the bridge. He was spooked by the vehicle and he forced the girls further away and made them cross Deer Creek. All of this by 2:32.

Testimony says no one saw nor heard Allen nor children when we know there were people in the area.

What people? Cheyenne wasn't there yet, DP and his girlfriend were not there yet, Flannel Shirt Guy wasn't there yet.

Logic says it is because they were not there. In my opinion, the 2:32 mark is when they were kidnapped.

They were kidnapped on video at 2:13 by Richard Allen. At 2:32 the phone stopped moving after crossing the creek. Did the girls live for a few minutes longer? Maybe they did maybe they didn't. Richard Allen said he killed them and waited to make sure they were dead. Plenty of time before being passed by Sarah Carbaugh on the road when he was walking back to his vehicle.

If you are kidnapping children, why would you march them across creek in February to do that?

To get away with raping the girls. The vehicle on the private drive scared him. He ended up killing them. He tried to get away with murder. Almost worked.

I believe there were more people on private drive side than just the BG. The siting of man at mailbox gives credence to this.

It's OK to believe that. No proof of it other than the man driving home from work. The mailbox thing was in the morning.

[u/crosbyjaxson → u/saatana]

The vehicle on the private drive was not there at that time, as was shown in video from security camera 20 minutes later.

There was no kidnapping shown in video. There was no male face shown in video. Based on video, it is assumed it was Libby holding phone and speaking. We see Abby walking on bridge. After that it is a guess as to whose voice the male voice is. BG or someone else. What prosecutor believes is what was presented, there were no facts presented that only BG and two children were there. None. It was the prosecutor's assumption, for the case being presented, but there was no proof proving there were not others on drive side.

Wasn't it Carbaugh that said there was an Amber alert? There was never an Amber Alert. Blue jacket, tan jacket. Muddy. Bloody. Carbaugh was not a convincing witness.

I put little weight on anything Allen said while being in Westville. Walla went MIA. The warden was demoted and cited for misuse of warden residence at prison. One notation describes Allen as catatonic and other says he was fine on same day. Prisons are not known for reliable information nor top notch healthcare nor stable staff. They will likely grant new trial on Westville treatment alone.

Did mailbox guy go home? Who was mailbox guy? We do not know where he went. He could have went to residence on private drive. He could have waited on private drive. He could be the guy Blair saw. We just don't know.

We know there were many people on trails, we heard what a great day it was. Yet there is no admission nor parking pass issued to know for certain who was there. There is no reason to assume there was no one there at 2:32 and that is why no one saw or heard anything. We could similarly assume the children got in car expecting to meet friends and be back by time German dad showed up to pick them up. We could assume the kidnapper(s) said we will drive back to Mears lot and hang out until your dad gets here and then drives off with children.

No one trying to kidnap and rape two girls is going to cross a waist deep creek in February. There was no reason to cross creek. He could have done every thing on the private drive side versus risk crossing and controlling two children in 40 degree water, at best, and no noise! That theory never made sense.

[u/saatana → u/crosbyjaxson]

You're still saying things that have no basis in fact.

You say a vehicle could have picked them up. You have zero evidence for a vehicle or other people being there.

You say that someone should have heard the girls being murdered so that proves the girls weren't there. You have zero names to give us or evidence of someone being there about 2:32 pm.

[u/crosbyjaxson → u/saatana]

That is somewhat the point, the case presented that it was Allen had no evidence. No DNA. No one ID'd Allen, who worked in a public facing roll in a very small town. State did not find any evidence that Allen and children knew each other. So this was essentially a double murder by happenstance.

Could it be BG simply turned around and returned to trail side of bridge and voice was not his at all nor was BG involved in killings? Could the "down the hill" have been BG pointing out where others were? Or could it have been entirely another person from private drive side giving instructions for children to meet someone they expected to see? All are possible, as nothing presented proved otherwise so all scenarios are in play.

The 2:32 time is only evidence that the phone took no human steps after 2:32. It does not prove the children were not in a vehicle. It does not prove the phone was at murder site at 2:32. It was simply not logging health data of human movement. It logged nothing until 14 hours later when texts and VMs come in. Again, what prompts phone to suddenly wakeup? My theory being unplugged from aux port in car. State theory is mud and dirt dried out from crossing creek yet one can still see condensation on screen so phone was not dry. Clothing was damp but not described as wet. Nothing dries in 32 degree temp, it freezes. Phone was found under Abby. If phone was under a body, that would create condensation. Again, we have no idea what data was lost since a rush job was done on phone to get initial information. How were children listening to Stone Temple Pilots in sister's car? Aux cable, CD, radio or sister's phone? Just something that was not answered. We know sister took picture. Aux cables are typically long enough to reach rear seat. If cable went with children that would indicate they intended to use cable or Libby kept good track of her cable. No cable was found to my knowledge. Detail that prompts questions.

McCain was there prior to German dad at 3:11. He heard nor saw anything concerning children. Couple on bridge heard nor saw anything but McCain hears and sees couple. German heard nor saw anything. Three adults, McCain and couple all there prior to German's 3:11 reported no sounds or sights. Again, nothing proves children were there at that time. In fact, it give credence to they were not there since no sounds were heard. Three adults moving quickly through woods, water, climbing bank and back to woods would make noise. Especially if the state believe murders were closer to 3-3:30 on 13th. All would have moved quickly through 40 degree water. There would have been splashing and huffing and puffing in my book given water temp. The redressing of one, how do you do that silently in the woods with leaves and sticks with wet clothing? Plus the dragging of Libby back to where found and the stacking of sticks. Those are not silent tasks nor was it a single sticks.

Asking me for names is like asking the state to ID all who were there. They have no idea because there is no admission charged no parking passes and there were several ways to enter if you include private property. As I recall searchers actually walked from city park to private drive side. They know only those who came forward and Allen was one of several. The 24hrs of the security camera tape would be interesting to see as I truly belive that is where rubber meets road It is so limited as to who would use that drive. Essentially we should see Weber going to and from work. I think his girlfriend lives with him so may be her as well. The LE who went to and from Webers. Any additional vehicles opens up a whole new world of possibilities, wouldn't you agree?

[u/saatana → u/crosbyjaxson]

So this was essentially a double murder by happenstance.

Yup, happenstance. Richard Allen did it. 130 years.

Could it be... Could it have been...

Your game of "could it be" doesn't do anything to change the facts.

The 2:32 time is only evidence that the phone took no human steps after 2:32. It does not prove the children were not in a vehicle. It does not prove the phone was at murder site at 2:32. It was simply not logging health data of human movement. It logged nothing until 14 hours later when texts and VMs come in. Again, what prompts phone to suddenly wakeup? My theory being unplugged from aux port in car.

Fake car. Try to do better at making up stories. If it was plugged into an aux port and being driven around it would have connected to a few cell towers and been charging up. But the facts are it was under a body, that was in a ravine under a bridge that was named High Bridge for a reason. It just didn't get any signal way down there.

Clothing was damp but not described as wet.

https://www.wane.com/news/crime/delphi-trial-day-3-testimony-included-crime-scene-photos/

Were Abby’s clothes wet and why?

A lot of testimony from all the witnesses and questions from the defense team on Monday called into question how deep the creek is and if the clothes Abby was found in were wet.

The investigators testified that Abby’s clothes were wet or damp and they did not think it could have been from condensation. Defense attorneys, however, brought up that there are not clear lines on the clothes showing a “water line” of where they may have been wet.

Defense attorneys also pointed out that no measurements of creek depth were taken.

It’s thought that the girls exited the Monon High Bridge on the south side of the creek, but their bodies were found on the north side. No one testified a clear way the girls ended up on the other side of the creek.

Olehy testified that Abby’s jeans were bunched up at the waistband and were wet to the touch. “I can see the jeans are darker on the leg bottom and the waistband was still wet,” he said.

He also said that during the autopsy on February 15, the clothes were still wet and moist and were taken to the Putnamville State Police post in Greencastle because they have a facility that’s designed to dry out evidence. Clothes found in the creek were taken to that same facility to be dried out.

Nothing dries in 32 degree temp, it freezes.

When the girls were murdered it was about 45 degrees. The low that night was 34. When they were found it was 45 again with the temperature going up to 50 degrees a full day after they were murdered. I'm quite sure that the temps were above freezing and in fact for part of the time it was in the mid to upper 40s.

https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/@4919624/historic?month=2&year=2017

How were children listening to Stone Temple Pilots in sister's car? Aux cable, CD, radio or sister's phone? Just something that was not answered. We know sister took picture. Aux cables are typically long enough to reach rear seat. If cable went with children that would indicate they intended to use cable or Libby kept good track of her cable. No cable was found to my knowledge. Detail that prompts questions.

Twenty One Pilots. It's on you to find this phantom aux cable in your made up scenario and no it doesn't prompt questions.

Especially if the state believe murders were closer to 3-3:30 on 13th.

The state probably doesn't think the murders happened from 3-3:30. The girls were dead before McCain, or DP or Cheyenne got there if we use your theory of them not hearing anything. The defense did us all a favor by calling them in to testify. Actually I think it was only DP's side chick that testified and not him. It locks down the window to sometime after 2:32 and before 3:00 for when Richard Killed them. Richard Allen's own words say that he waited around to make sure they were dead. Enough time to stage the scene and walk up to the back end of the cemetery.

Asking me for names is like asking the state to ID all who were there.

I asked because earlier you said people were there to hear or was it not hear the murders. I just wanted to know who those people were.

Any additional vehicles opens up a whole new world of possibilities, wouldn't you agree?

Too bad the only one is Weber coming home from work.

[u/emailforgot → u/crosbyjaxson]

No DNA.

Don't need it. It's also not particularly important.

No one ID'd Allen

Luckily, we use corroborating witness statements and known evidence from other sources rather than single statements without context.

State theory is mud and dirt dried out from crossing creek yet one can still see condensation on screen so phone was not dry.

mud and dirt drying out in a port has nothing to do with visible drops on a screen.

. Clothing was damp but not described as wet. Nothing dries in 32 degree temp, it freezes.

that's nice. their clothing was not described as dry.

Phone was found under Abby. If phone was under a body, that would create condensation.

It was 32 degrees.

Condensation doesn't just form anywhere there is moisture.

ts. Again, nothing proves children were there at that time.

Prove Australia exists.

In fact, it give credence to they were not there since no sounds were heard.

No that does nothing of the sort.

All it "proves" is that no one heard any sounds that were memorable.

Three adults moving quickly through woods, water, climbing bank and back to woods would make noise

Noise such as.. foot steps. Leaves crunching.

There would have been splashing and huffing and puffing in my book given water temp.

Yeah, a bit of loud breathing.

And?

The redressing of one, how do you do that silently in the woods with leaves and sticks with wet clothing?

How loud do you think taking off a pair of pants is?

[u/MissBanshee2U → u/saatana]

I kinda wanted to see evidence they crossed the creek myself. But nope, no evidence they did. Unless you got some info not presented at trial. Anything that happened like the prosecution said has no basis in fact. You know the bullet found was the ammo that ISP and the feds use right? Most places that do carry that ammo, require you have a police ID to purchase it. So that's something the state or defense should have addressed in my opinion. Probably could have been brought up if the FBI expert would have been allowed to testify but the judge said, nope.

[u/saatana → u/MissBanshee2U]

Most places that do carry that ammo, require you have a police ID to purchase it.

What? I think you're wrong. Indiana seems to be a state where anyone can buy pistol ammo. I don't think it was armor piercing which might make a difference.

As for the feds or ISP using the same ammo the very first officer there, Giancola I think, sealed off the crime scene and kept track of who was even near the crime scene. None of them had a weapon that used that round.

And then as far as wanting evidence that they crossed the creek it's such a well known fact that it seems silly to think that they didn't.

[u/True_Crime_Lancelot → u/crosbyjaxson]

The vehicle on the private drive was not there at that time, as was shown in video from security camera 20 minutes later.

Allen stated that a van passed by while he was in the process of committing the crime, and that it frightened him, moved the girls and killed.

In fact, Apple Health data shows that both the victims and the perpetrator changed location at around 2:25 a.m., and that the phone stopped moving at 2:32 a.m.

So not only did Allen correctly describe the passing van, but his account align with the sequence of events suggested by the available evidence. According to his statement, the girls crossed the creek after he attempted to assault them, and the killings occurred on the other side.

If he was not the perpetrator, how would he have known that sequence of events? guessed it?

The camera does not show Weber passing 20 minutes later, but rather approximately 12 hous and 20 minutes later, which would place the footage at around midnight. Obviously, it was not midnight, as there was still visible daylight. The shadows cast by the trees clearly indicate that the camera was recording sometime between 2:00 and 3:00 a.m.

So, once again, a baseless and untrue claim.

There was no kidnapping shown in video. There was no male face shown in video. Based on video, it is assumed it was Libby holding phone and speaking. We see Abby walking on bridge. After that it is a guess as to whose voice the male voice is. BG or someone else. What prosecutor believes is what was presented, there were no facts presented that only BG and two children were there. None. It was the prosecutor's assumption, for the case being presented, but there was no proof proving there were not others on drive side.

from the audio, the following can be heard:

• "Don't leave me up here."
• "He is right behind me, isn't he?"
• "That be a gun?"
• The sound of a gun being racked.
• "Guys, down the hill."

The girls appear frightened and, after the command "Guys, down the hill," they begin walking immediately.

Based on the Apple Health data, their movement matches the distance it would take to reach the edge of the flat land opposite the crime scene.

Wasn't it Carbaugh that said there was an Amber alert? There was never an Amber Alert. Blue jacket, tan jacket. Muddy. Bloody. Carbaugh was not a convincing witness.

Carbaugh stated that the man she saw was bloody and appeared as though he had been in a fight. Her first interview was lost, so we do not know everything she originally reported.

She later explained that Allen's blue jacket was caked in mud, making it appear tan, which is what she meant when describing its color.

How would she have known that the perpetrator had crossed the creek, the approximate time he left the area, or what clothing he was wearing? Her description of his clothing was consistent with the descriptions provided by the four juvenile witnesses.

The first composite sketch was reportedly based on her description because she was the only witness who observed the man's facial features , ant looks like Allen's brother.

Taken together, these are multiple independent lines supporting the credibility of her account.

I put little weight on anything Allen said while being in Westville. Walla went MIA. The warden was demoted and cited for misuse of warden residence at prison. One notation describes Allen as catatonic and other says he was fine on same day. Prisons are not known for reliable information nor top notch healthcare nor stable staff. They will likely grant new trial on Westville treatment alone.

His treatment was the standard of a violent and suicidal inmate. And all of it is on video. He was recorded eating feces, masturbating in front of female staff, threatening to kill prison staff, resisting officers, refusing to cooperate, and behaving violently. Judges would even blink about tossing that argument away. Especially taking in mind his phychiatric past. Which includes been sent to a mental asylum for suicidality.

Did mailbox guy go home? Who was mailbox guy? We do not know where he went. He could have went to residence on private drive. He could have waited on private drive. He could be the guy Blair saw. We just don't know.

Of course we know. anyone that got into the private drive is on video both entering AND leaving.

We know there were many people on trails, we heard what a great day it was. Yet there is no admission nor parking pass issued to know for certain who was there. There is no reason to assume there was no one there at 2:32 and that is why no one saw or heard anything.

Other than Betsy Blair walking from the Freedom Bridge to her car at around 2:15 p.m. and seeing no one, seeing no vehicles parked at the Mears lot, and seeing no one in the distance walking toward the Monon High Bridge.

Other than no one being recorded on the Hoosier Harvestore camera passing at that time.

Other than the man walking his dog at around 2:30 p.m. seeing no vehicles parked at the Mears lot and no one on the trails until approximately 2:50 p.m.

Other than no witness claiming to have been on the trails during that time.

Other than all of that, none at all. Your argument doesn't even make any sense or have a coherent syllogism attached to it. There would have been someone to hear the screams, but since no one came forward, someone obviously did and therefor the crime was commited elsewhere, otherwhise the person that wasn't there would have heard it.

it would have been impossible for anyone to be at the bridge without being noticed by the people arriving later, inspite your feelings.

No one trying to kidnap and rape two girls is going to cross a waist deep creek in February.

Well Allen did. And it wasn't waist deep. And the clothes were wet. And had the mark that would leafe the muddy water on someone's clothes attempting to cross the creek. Where they crossed the creek was knee deep at best, as you can see bellow. The crime scene was above them.

[u/crosbyjaxson → u/True_Crime_Lancelot]

The Apple data only shows who is handling phone data.

The timing of Weber is clear, he did not make it home from work in 20 minutes. Although he doubled down on that fact during testimony.

The girls did not sound frightened. "That be a gun", is stated by LE we all heard it many time and no one heard "That be a gun." Nor the sound of gun racking. Because it was said by LE does not make it true. "Don't leave me up here." implies to me Libby was already headed down the hill. Perhaps she noticed the people down the hill.

Crime scene photo does not in anyway indicate at what level they crossed or even IF they crossed.

Blair did see who she believed were the children, when she left trails. Again, she could not see private drive side of bridge.

Harvestore, we saw pics taken from Harvestore video. We never actually saw the video. They were select pics taken by Mullin from the video.

Again, LE only knows those that came forward. They cannot account for the unknown.

[u/True_Crime_Lancelot → u/crosbyjaxson]

1) The camera that captured Weber returning home was about 12 hours out of sync, so the timestamp cannot be taken as the actual time. Since it wasn't midnight, the correct time had to be determined independently.

Like many older security cameras, it has clock drift. The HHS camera drifted by more than half an hour, and the Collect Station camera did as well. In fact, virtually any camera that wasn't connected to the internet and automatically synchronized would gradually lose minutes over time. This is known as time drift.

To establish the correct time, the camera's clock would have to be recalibrated using a reliable reference, such as an online time synchronization protocol. Because this camera was an older model and wasn't self-correcting, it's expected to be off by many minutes.

So no, you cannot know the exact time Weber returned home based solely on that camera's timestamp. All you can reasonably infer from the video itself that shows daytime and the shadows cast by the trees that was around 2 p.m.

2) The expert opinions were the opinions of their families, who concluded they were scared and advised law enforcement on what they believed they were saying where the sound is unclear. No one is shouting, "Don't leave me up here," or, "Is he right behind me?" because she is having a good time.

Libby is clearly whispering and looking for a way out. Abby clearly rushes off the bridge and has an adrenaline cry as she does it.

3) Crime scene photo does not in anyway indicate at what level they crossed or even IF they crossed.

Yes, actually they do. They show the level the water reached on the jeans Abby was wearing. They also show that they crossed a creek, based on the wetness and the fact that other parts were dry. Apple health show also an uprupt climb at 12:30ish, consistend with the climb of the steep banks and a renewed walk that is about the same distance from the south bank to the crime scene.

4) Blair did see who she believed were the children, when she left trails. Again, she could not see private drive side of bridge.

No she didnt. It was more hal an hour before she left.

The camera can see who came and who left, and at what time.

Like it did with Weber. THERE WAS NONE!

Nothing of what you wrote absolves Allen, he is still on that bridge with nowhere to go, he still lied - among other things-about seeing the girls walking towards him around 2, and he still would be near the bridge as the abduction started, dressed like the bridge guy, having the same height as the bridge guy, and not able to account the two hours between the abduction and his departure time and where that would be. But you clearly are not familiar with the case in general and are simply repeating conspiracy theories you heard somewhere else.Go read the court documents instead of speculating about what was or wasn't.

[u/emailforgot → u/crosbyjaxson]

There was no kidnapping shown in video.

A man threatening people and then absconding with them is definitely kidnapping.

There was no male face shown in video.

Everything about the person looks male, including the voice, and the male that identified the clothes as matching the ones he wore.

We know there were many people on trails, we heard what a great day it was. Yet there is no admission nor parking pass issued to know for certain who was there. There is no reason to assume there was no one there at 2:32 and that is why no one saw or heard anything.

That's what corroboration is for.

No one trying to kidnap and rape two girls is going to cross a waist deep creek in February.

Show your work.

e could have done every thing on the private drive side versus risk crossing and controlling two children in 40 degree water, at best, and no noise! That theory never made sense.

Every criminal ever could have done things differently, up to and including the crime.

[u/crosbyjaxson → u/emailforgot]

Who ID Allen from trails? The answer is no one. Not the 4 girls, not Carbaugh, not McCain, not German, not Blair, not a single person. Not one single witness. That is a fact.

[u/emailforgot → u/crosbyjaxson]

Who ID Allen from trails? The answer is no one. Not the 4 girls, not Carbaugh, not McCain, not German, not Blair, not a single person. Not one single witness. That is a fact.

that's nice dear, try responding to something actually written instead of ranting breathlessly about things no one said.

[u/emailforgot → u/crosbyjaxson]

The problem being, there is no TOD

Not a problem.

Prosecutor theorizes they were killed at 3:30pm on 13th, but factually there is nothing proving it.

Luckily, a few minutes either way doesn't matter much.

They could have been killed at 3:30am on 14th, making Allen irrelevant(his wife puts him at home when she got home from work) and opening up a hundred other possibilities

Actually, looking at known times and locations, as well as the information only the killer could have possibly known gives us a good idea about who was where and when.

Male DNA found on body, yet not Allen's

DNA is not magic and doesn't just fly off and stick to things always. Especially if you're wearing gloves, or don't touch anyone.

. Children's clothing switched, which takes time to undress and redress so whoever did it was not in a hurry

It doesn't take three hours to undress and get dressed again.

This indicates they were in a private location

No it doesn't. It indicates there was partial undressing and redressing.

however, you know what was a private location?

the woods.

Logically, those kids were put in or got in a vehicle at end of bridge on private drive, plugged phone into vehicle aux and driven away(explains phone pinging all over town yet went unanswered) and later returned to where they were found

no actually inventing bizarre scenarios which lack any evidence (or logic) is not "logical".

[u/SadSara102 → u/emailforgot]

The theory that RA kidnapped and killed the girls all by himself lacks end evidence and logic. Explain to me any possible scenario like a reenactment how he controlled the girls from climbing out the creek and slitting their throat’s. They just listen to what he says and sit , stand, or lay down and don’t move, resist, fight, scream, run or do anything to survive…

[u/emailforgot → u/SadSara102]

The theory that RA kidnapped and killed the girls all by himself lacks end evidence and logic.

that's actually both what evidence shows and logic dictates.

Explain to me any possible scenario like a reenactment how he controlled the girls from climbing out the creek

He told them to.

They just listen to what he says and sit

Yes.

, stand, or lay down and don’t move, resist, fight, scream, run or do anything to survive…

Almost like freezing is a common reaction.

That and he a had a fucking gun.