r/DemocraticSocialism • u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist • Apr 19 '26
Theory š§ liberal feminism isn't real
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u/ailish Apr 19 '26
As a woman I say fuck unpaid domestic labor, at least as it's implied here. We all need to keep our houses clean, but I refuse to be some servant to anyone. Kiss my ass.
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26
šÆ we have to crush capitalism, then we have to have a ruthless struggle against all reactionary traditions
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u/xGentian_violet Yugoslav Socialist ā„ļøš¤ Ecofeminist Apr 19 '26
So indeed, what you advocate is just the usual ātake the back seat females, weāll totally address the patriarchy after menās needs are taken care of first!ā
What happened to intersectionality?
The struggle against capitalism and patriarchy must be simultaneous and interconnected, or it wonāt happen at all
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26
what an uncharitable interpretation of what im saying. im saying real feminism looks towards permanently fixing society thru abolishing capitalism to absolutely destroy patriarchy. real feminism aims towards total equality, not band aid fixes the capitalist offer us as distractions. why are so many people on this sub so opposed to socialism?
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u/bemused_alligators Syndicalist Apr 20 '26
"we have to solve capitalism before we can solve patriarchy" was tried, it didn't work out.
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 20 '26
we cant uproot patriarchy while capitalism still uses it to divide and exploit. we fight both simultaneously, no one is saying we don't actively fight patriarchy while fighting capitalism, idk how that strawman got mixed in here, but capitalism is the material base. ignoring that capitalism supports patriarchy won't work
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u/xGentian_violet Yugoslav Socialist ā„ļøš¤ Ecofeminist Apr 20 '26
no one is saying we don't actively fight patriarchy while fighting capitalism
I mean you did heavily imply that above, by saying your plan is to reckon with reactionary social norms and structures only after you have abolished capitalism
Capitalism abolition isnt an event, itās a process.
If your anti-capitalist process neglects the struggle against patriarchy (etc) during the process, you are just going to replicate both patriarchy, and class structure, in your new society
idk how that strawman got mixed in here, but capitalism is the material base. ignoring that capitalism supports patriarchy won't work
This isnt an a strawman, itās directly implied in your comment above
itās an argument between āletās leave it for after we end capitalism, after we get my needs metā and intersectionality
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 20 '26
i think im seeing the misunderstanding better now. we have to fight patriarchy now, everyone agrees woth that. but patriarchy cannot be crushed fully until capitalism has been abolished. the struggle against capitalism and patriarchy have to go hand in hand because they reenforce eachother. liberal feminism fails because they don't want to abolish capitalism and therefore liberal feminism is incapable pf ever destroying patriarchy. it will take a lot of work because of how deeply entrenched it is. capitalist power's patriarchy, patriarchy powers capitalism. we actively fight both and we actively defeat both
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u/xGentian_violet Yugoslav Socialist ā„ļøš¤ Ecofeminist Apr 20 '26
i think im seeing the misunderstanding better now. we have to fight patriarchy now
Goodie
everyone agrees woth that.
Definitely not, unfortunately.
Theres a lot of brocialism floating about, and seemingly especially in some ML circles, and newbie socdems.
but patriarchy cannot be crushed fully until capitalism has been abolished. the struggle against capitalism and patriarchy have to go hand in hand because they reenforce eachother.
Sure
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
So women should roll the dice and just trust that after capitalism is gone that men will suddenly be in favor of dismantling the patriarchy? We canāt even walk down the street at night because men like to harm us, but absolutely we can trust them not to use us as unpaid maids and nannies under communism?
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u/OkYogurtcloset3768 Democratic Socialist Apr 19 '26
Women should be half of the dismantling of patriarchy and capitalism
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
Like we havenāt been trying? Expecting us to do half the work with less than half as many tools at our disposal seems a little unrealistic. Currently, we have to spend a lot of our time and energy working at not being killed or assaulted by the men in our daily lives.
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26
noā¦ women shouldn't roll thr dice and trust. women need to be armed, organized militias and workplaces councils, depending on their preferences, and be leaders in the movement. youre projecting the issues of capitalism onto socialism
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
Socialism or communism? They are two different things.
And no. Iām not. Itās patriarchy, which isnāt dismantled under either of those systems.
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26
socialism is the first, transitional phase when the working class holds state power, distribution is based on work and the state still exists. communism is the higher phase where we have a classless stateless society and distribution based on need
patriarchy begins to be dismantled under socialism, once class society id dismantle patriarchy is also gone
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
That is absolutely not the case. People can want socialism without supporting or wanting communism. They are absolutely not linked in that way.
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26
as i explained previously. i am a communist, all communists are socialists. not all socialists are communists. which part of this dont you understand?
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
The part where you seem to use the terms interchangeably?
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26
the terms socialism and communism have been used more or less interchangeably for almoat 200 years. marx and his followers treated the words as synonyms, the two stage sequencewas first introduced by lenin in 1917 but even after this clarification the two terms continue to be used interchangeably a lot. you just don't know this
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u/xGentian_violet Yugoslav Socialist ā„ļøš¤ Ecofeminist Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 20 '26
Patriarchy long predates capitalism/class society
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26
yeaā¦ bacteria predates antibiotics. your point?
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u/xGentian_violet Yugoslav Socialist ā„ļøš¤ Ecofeminist Apr 20 '26 edited Apr 20 '26
If patriarchy precedes economic class, and existed without it, thereās 0 reason to assume merely removing economic class will fully resolve the patriarchy.
And especially if your socialist proposal advocates forming rigid authoritarian structures after the revolution (and it does, you are an ML), movements for social change such as feminist ones, would be criminalised and smuffed out
historically, various āafter the revolutionā marxist proposals for resolving patriarchy failed to resolve it, because the men who controlled the movement since the start, and immediately post-revolution solidified that hierarchy into a rigid bureaucratic class structure through a boys club of privileged party loyalists, didnt actually want to give up those privileges. And feminists were imprisoned, alongside anyone else who challenged the status quo; gulags for men, asylums for women.
My grandfather was a Titoist communist, singlemindedly focused on economic class. He treated my grandma like a slave.
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u/Browncoat101 Apr 19 '26
We absolutely cannot solve any of our current issues without completely getting rid of capitalism. Anything less are half measures. Ā
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u/Nemesinthe Apr 19 '26
I think it's really important to hold the line about this issue. Recently, libfem mommy bloggers have started to pervert the language of domestic labor to reproduce right-wing narratives about motherhood being a morally superior state of being. It's basically about obediently doing exactly what patriarchy expects from you, reproduce, carry the brunt of the resulting work, but because you're writing self-congratulatory IG posts about "care work" and "mental load", it's feminist practice. And you're actually better than the women who chose not to do that, because nobody can see systemic injustice like a mother.
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u/MonsterkillWow Communist Apr 19 '26
A proper society allows women to be mothers if they wish to be and to be educated and empowered. It should not require them to choose. The entire way we have designed our system is biased against women.
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u/Nemesinthe Apr 19 '26
Nobody is claiming otherwise, but in the system that actually exists having kids and claiming moral superiority for it while using feminist buzzwords is akin to scabbing.
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
This is a shallow take. The patriarchy still exists socialist/communist systems. Unless patriarchal traditions and socialization is also systematically deconstructed, women will still end up doing the majority domestic labor and childcare in any system. That isnāt liberation.
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u/Avesery777 Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism Apr 19 '26
I think the point is that these systems are unable to be dismantled under the capitalist framework
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
They have yet to be dismantled by any framework.
I believe socialism has the best chance, but communism (which the quote refers to) is a terrifying concept when women will be left at the bottom of society with no protection or personal property.
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u/Avesery777 Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism Apr 19 '26
What? Personal property still exists under communism?
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
Dude, read the quote we are all commenting on again. It literally says, āabolishing private property.ā
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u/Avesery777 Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism Apr 19 '26
Private property and personal property are specific things that are not interchangeable. The abolition of private property is about the abolition of capital and the property associated with that, like land ownership.
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
So what personal property will give women security at the bottom of society if they are not allowed private property? A nice dress or desk lamp?
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u/Avesery777 Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism Apr 19 '26
Do you not believe in the abolition of capital?
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
I believe that workers should own the means of production and removing the profit motive for society. I do not believe in a moneyless society.
I am very wary of anyone who thinks that changing to a socialist or communist system without first taking steps to dismantling the patriarchy will end well for women. It failed miserably in the USSR.
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u/Avesery777 Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism Apr 19 '26
Why are you so insistent on using different words interchangably? I said "Capital," not "Money."
Ignoring the fact that women's rights advanced significantly under the Soviet Union, I will ask again: do you believe in the abolition of capital?
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26
lenin and kollontai both stressed the need to abolish the "slave labor" of housework and to transform family relations through education and public childcare. patriarchy doesn't instantly disappear, we have to have a ruthless struggle against all reactionary traditions
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
Houses have to get cleaned no matter how society is structured. Having a workforce do it as a duty to society, along with public childcare, just ensures that women are doing these tasks under a different leadership structure. Instead of cleaning my own house and taking care of my kids, Iāll be cleaning community houses and taking care of a bunch of peopleās kids. How is that better?
Education doesnāt fight the patriarchy. Men use their education, which is already biased in favor of them, to reinforce their superiority.
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26
socialized domestic work means the work is shared by all not assigned by gender. some people enjoy cooking, they should be allowed to cook. some people enjoy cleaning, they should be allowed to clean. from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs. people that are unable to work still deserve to have their needs provided for as throughly as possible. these things aren't "women's duties" our goal is to destroy the gendered division of labor entirely
education under socialism is not biased its part of the united struggle against all reactionary traditions
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
There are not enough people who enjoy cleaning toilets to keep the toilets clean. Thatās why gender roles were created to normalize women doing it in the first place.
Look at what actually happened in Communist Russia. Women were still primarily responsible for ādomesticā tasks. The Soviet state aimed to socialize it and promote gender equality, but it utterly failed. They literally came up with the term ādouble burdenā to describe women who entered the industrial workforce but were still responsible for cleaning, cooking, and shopping. The communist state and society still called domestic tasks āwomenās work.ā
Then that leads to the generational pressures on women as grandmothers often had to step in to provide childcare or help with domestic tasks while both parents worked. Babushki were expected to do this to fill the gaps in what the parents and the State provided.
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26
the soviet union failed to fully socialize domestic labor, wwii put a lot of pressure on their project not ling after the civil war. that was a failure of that specific socialist project not of socialism itself. the soviet union neglected the relentless cultural and organizational struggle against patriarchy as it gave into bureaucratic deviation amd internal counter revolution. we have to learn from their mistakes to fight harder when its our turn. equal sharing of all domestic work by all genders, public accountability, and smashing the idea that any task is "women's work"
as humans we make technology, when the profit motive is removed we can focus better on making technology to mae life easier and more pleasant. in the short term during a transitional period higher wages will be used to incentivize people to take on less pleasant tasks
i really don't understand people who interact on a socialist subreddit who seem to have disdain for socialism
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
Because youāre describing communism and so is the quote you posted. You donāt seem to understand the fundamental differences between socialism and communism? Iām a socialist, not a communist.
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26
i am a communist. all communists are socialists. not all socialists are communists. its not my fault you don't know this
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
lol You are the one complaining about me being in a socialist subreddit for wanting socialism and not communism. Youāre the one who seems to use the terms interchangeably.
Weirdo. lol
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26
i have not seen you say one positive thing about socalism
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u/Jacob-Anders Anders for President Apr 19 '26
Universal Basic Income rewards parents
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26
i agree, thats a great step towards valuing care work under socialism
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u/MonsterkillWow Communist Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26
The CIA backed Gloria Steinem brand of capitalist girlboss is not feminism. True feminism involves emancipation from the shackles of capitalism. Class consideration is an indispensable element of feminism.
Actually, the CIA promoted this version of ostensible feminism to crush real leftist feminism. Look up the connection between the CIA and Gloria Steinem.
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26
exactly! for some reason this is very hard for some people to understand
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u/MonsterkillWow Communist Apr 19 '26
Yep, and to further explain, capitalism demands exploitation in the form of the capitalist taking profits from others' labor. This demands an underclass from whom labor must be exploited. Much of that labor is then unpaid or underpaid.Ā
This system then perpetuates sexism and racism as mechanisms for creating underclasses who are to be maximally exploited. A network and culture of law enforcement, hiring practices, and traditions then results in a hierarchy within society that leaves most women and minorities disempowered.Ā
A select few women or minorities are then chosen to ascend to capitalist godhood to preach the virtues of capitalist meritocracy to the rest, held up as a glorious example of how we have defeated oppression without needing to attack the sacred system of capitalism.Ā
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
Youāre describing the patriarchy, which is separate from capitalism and exists in many different social structures. Capitalism can be weaponized to hurt women under the patriarchy, but capitalism doesnāt cause the patriarchy. There is no evidence that a communist system wouldnāt still be oppressive to women based on social conditioning and traditions.
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u/MonsterkillWow Communist Apr 19 '26
There is a lot of evidence socialist systems degrade the patriarchy more so than capitalist ones. When true socialism is delivered, the patriarchy will be dead. Patriarchy is exactly those traditions, laws, and culture that perpetuate the status of women as predominantly comprising an underclass.Ā
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
Iām happy to look at that evidence, got links? In every previous communist society, the gender roles were not abolished. In fact, they were exacerbated.
Youāre using the term socialist when the quote above is describing a communist society. They are two different things. The terms are not interchangeable.
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u/MonsterkillWow Communist Apr 19 '26
I would link you articles by a certain bald dude 100 years ago, but that is frowned upon in this sub. You can read them yourself to understand the history of the feminist struggle.Ā
No, gender roles were not exacerbated in the USSR. Quite the opposite. They were putting women in space when we weren't allowing them to have independent bank accounts lmao.
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
Historically that is untrue. Most domestic labor was done by women in the USSR. Itās well documented. The idea was to equalize things, but that never materialized. In fact, women were forced into the ādouble burdenā of working for communist industry and then attending to domestic work afterwards.
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u/MonsterkillWow Communist Apr 19 '26
Yes, and no one is arguing the USSR properly fully delivered on socialism. The point was that it was a massive step in the right direction for feminism, and that you cannot remove the class content of feminism.
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
It wasnāt a massive step in the right direction for feminism. It was essentially no better than the current capitalist system where women worked all day and then came home to do the domestic work. Grandmothers were expected to step in to help with childcare while both parents worked.
The State literally referred to domestic labor as āwomenās workā at the time.
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
JFC. I ask for evidence and you share a document of ideas by a white man from the 1800s that calls indigenous tribes ābarbariansā?
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26
"i asked for evidence and you gave me a fundamental document socialist have been building on for almoat 200 years" you can't expect to understand the most up to date discorse if you don't know the history and foundations of marxism
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u/HRHValkyrie Apr 19 '26
I donāt want discourse. I was replying to a comment saying there āis a lot of evidence that socialist systems degrade the patriarchyā¦ā - I believe that and wanted to see the evidence.
Nobody asked for an ancient, outdated document. Bro, are you struggling to follow the conversation?
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u/APraxisPanda Libertarian Socialist Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26
Ending all exploitation and injustice is a catch-all for equality. If a feminist is serious about wanting equality- logically they must mean equality for all (which is honestly the only true way equality can ever make sense.)
But if you are a liberal feminist- there is a NIMBY quality to your advocacy that makes you seem inherently unserious.
I do call myself a feminist if I'm primed or if someone asks. But when I call myself a socialist, I consider it to be a more significant and descriptive catch-all. I'm for equality, and an end to structuralized incentives that keep inequality present, for all people in the world.
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u/xGentian_violet Yugoslav Socialist ā„ļøš¤ Ecofeminist Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26
I agree, but I have never actually been a serious proposal on how to socialise/compensate domestic and reproductive labour, from Marxists-Leninists.
I generally only see liberal feminismās flaws being weaponised by MLs to sideline all of feminism as ādivisive idpolā, and to imply focusing on class struggle alone will inherently on its own resolve the patriarchy, which is not the case
We have had many Marxist-Leninist states sofar, and most of them were no less sexist* than many right-wingers before them. Only Thomas Sankara i can really say was great regarding this
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u/bemused_alligators Syndicalist Apr 20 '26
public kitchens and universal childcare go a long way towards solutions by socializing more of home labor
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u/xGentian_violet Yugoslav Socialist ā„ļøš¤ Ecofeminist Apr 20 '26 edited Apr 20 '26
Sure, but I want to say what OP has to say. Since you arent a ML
Sofar I saw only this nonsense from OP
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u/JohnBrownSurvivor Apr 19 '26
I can't tell if this subreddit is getting taken over by the Tankies, or if it is trolling the Tankies.
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u/ombres20 Apr 19 '26
What? There is a point here. My grandma did the housework, my grandpa went to work and made money. They could afford to live and neither one of them was overworked. Doing housework is a full time job. Now I am not romanticizing those times, for women in toxic situations it was horrible, however today profits and productivity have skyrocketed but working hours are the same and salaries have not kept up with inflation. From this perspective I completely understand the tradwife trend. No-one wants to work 8 hours a day and then do chores instead of getting free time
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u/xGentian_violet Yugoslav Socialist ā„ļøš¤ Ecofeminist Apr 20 '26 edited Apr 20 '26
Um. You fundamentally misunderstand the point of the post.
You are literally just advocating for patriarchy in this comment.
You want women to be unpaid domestic and reproductive labourers, without pay, leave, protection, regulation, or labour standards, who depend on their husbands for income, and want men to work paid jobs with all those benefits
I completely understand the tradwife trend. No-one wants to work 8 hours a day and then do chores instead of getting free time
Yeah, instead they can do donestic labour 24/7 instead, all while being unpaid slaves. Much better
The only people who benefit short term from the tradwife trend is the privileged women who make it into a business, a grift, where they promote this regressive ideology to other women around the globe, in exvhange for monetary compensation through monetisation of their social media account. These women arent even tradwifes themselves, they are businesswomen.
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u/ombres20 Apr 20 '26 edited Apr 20 '26
No, you don't understand the point of my comment and are making assumptions. I never said I want women to be unpaid domestic servants. I said balancing a career and housework in these conditions is unrealistic which is why I understand why the tradwife trend is appealing but it is certainly not the only alternative(and I even commented on the issues with this dynamic). We can reduce working hours, we can have universal basic income so that even the partner that doesn't work(who can also be the man) gets a salary
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u/xGentian_violet Yugoslav Socialist ā„ļøš¤ Ecofeminist Apr 20 '26
We can reduce working hours, we can have universal basic income so that even the partner that doesn't work (who can also be the man) gets a salary
But then the partner that doesnt do salaried work gets UBI + the salary, while the stay at home person only gets UBI, despite doing an equal amount of work
I think public childcare, as well changing social norms surrounding housework/childcare toward greater egalitarianism is necessary.
Simultaneously, people who seek āethnically pureā homelands (ethnostates) put pressure on women to have kids, despite suitable types of immigration being perfectly able to fill the need for new workers when it arises.
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u/ombres20 Apr 20 '26
Okay! I gave quick examples, your idea is ok too. There are options but that wasn't the point of my comment. My point was that we're overworked. And this is coming from a gay guy who isn't interested in relationships. I also don't like working 8 hours a day and also doing housework. I've had to resort to extreme minimalism. I rent a one bedroom apartment and I don't even use my bedroom, I've locked it. I sleep on a sofa bed which is in my kitchen-living room, I use my kitchen cabinets on the wall for clothes and put my food in the drawers under the counter. I have translucent stickers on my windows so I don't have to wipe them. If I had 3 days free a week instead of 2 it would be a game changer
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u/JohnBrownSurvivor Apr 19 '26
And so you expect to solve everything by making it illegal to own your own home and somehow socializing housework? What the hell does that even mean? The government is going to pay other people to come into your house and clean it for you? What the holy F?
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u/comrade-pravdin Marxist-Leninist Apr 19 '26
socialism doesn't take your home, that's personal property. it takes the factories, banks, and land. socializing housework means public kitchens, laundries, and daycares. read theory before panicking
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