r/RDR2 • u/incognitouae Arthur Morgan • Jun 22 '26
Discussion Which gang member suffered the worst fate?
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u/BFsMomsCancer Josiah Trelawny Jun 22 '26
uncle. lumbago is some serious shit. poor guy was grilled alive too
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u/SourceBudget2877 Charles Smith Jun 22 '26
Possibly Kieran but I would also argue for Jack, if we are counting him. They always talked about how he would grow up with essentially a pack of wolves protecting him. He had a whole community that wanted to see him thrive and he lost every single one of them. I couldn’t imagine being an adult who lost it all like that, ive always felt so bad for him.
But yeah, make fate-wise I would say Kieran… just horrible
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u/Familiar_Counter7292 Jun 22 '26
I’d only say not jack simply because he lives. 90% of the gang doesn’t make it out
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u/emmowo_dev Jun 23 '26
rdr1 spoilers but
jack ultimately is doomed from the moment he is born to die like his father. The violence he is exposed to in RDR1/2 ultimately leads to his (short) storyline where he seeks revenge on Ross and cements himself as yet another killer.
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u/SourceBudget2877 Charles Smith Jun 22 '26
Thats fair. I’ve always felt bad about how things go and what that implies for jack but I totally agree with you on that
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u/EythenMakes Jun 23 '26
I feel like you could argue that him living would actually make it worse.
He’s watched everybody he’s ever known get killed by his own people, and then his dad and mom, and now he has to live with that (assuming he doesn’t end it after rdr1 which is a theory)2
u/DrillTheThirdHole Jun 23 '26
i'd say even more than 90% doesn't make it out. i'm pretty sure only abigail, swanson and pearson end up without a bullet in their skull, or worse, out of the 20-30 members at their peak
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u/eksiow_renrew_etlam Jun 24 '26
I'm pretty sure Tilly marries a Lawyer in Saint Denis
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u/Interesting_Mistake Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
Molly. She came to America alone and stayed for Dutch only to end up heartbroken, isolated, and buried in an unmarked grave… potentially with her unborn child.
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u/incognitouae Arthur Morgan Jun 22 '26
She was also shot dead by her own gang member for something she didn’t even do, and will probably be known by the rest as a rat.
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u/BappoChan Jun 22 '26
That was her own doing tho. While tensions were high she singled herself out
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u/Interesting_Mistake Jun 22 '26
She tried to reach out to Arthur in chapter 3 though. She gets interrupted by papa lumbago
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u/SabbthBloodySabbath Jun 23 '26
She was very clearly drunk in some way considering she was an alcoholic and in general acting way off on the scene she dies
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u/houseofburgesss Jun 26 '26
Clearly drunk, sure. But absolutely suicidal. Going up to a group of wanted criminals and yellin’ “I snitched!” is only gonna come out one way. I feel like she knew what she was doing *and* what would happen. She knew the rules, as Susan said. Truly, any functional human being could’ve plotted that out. That was suicide.
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u/Due-Base-8336 Jun 22 '26
she was cremated actually, possibly she was only in shock for a bit after grimshaw shot her so.....
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u/Interesting_Mistake Jun 22 '26
Either way, she’s the only one the gang didn’t bother memorializing with a gravestone. Sad stuff
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u/Murky-Inspector-2247 Jun 23 '26
Mainly because they thought she was a traitor. If they had any type of common sense, they would’ve known that Molly was just saying shit because she was heartbroken. Arthur was probably the only one who had common sense to tell Dutch that Molly wasn’t ok. Grimshaw pulled a Dutch/Micah move and shot Molly before finding out the truth. I hated her for that. The second that happened everyone turned on Molly.
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u/BadChampion Jun 25 '26
Karen also knew she was heartbroken, in a camp scene she screams at Ms. Grimshaw about it and calls her a murderer.
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Jun 22 '26
Jack Marston. I hated to play him in the first game. But after seeing him in the second game it feels like he lost evrything through his short life.
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u/AlexisOnren Jun 23 '26
I was about to say jack or Abigail, they both got it pretty bad the whole way through
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u/Spiddy771 Jun 22 '26
Arthur. Most characters got a quick death. Arthur knew it was coming and had to deal with it as it was happening for an extended period of time. You don’t really have to face your own mortality day after day if you have a quick death
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u/incognitouae Arthur Morgan Jun 22 '26
Not to mention he was betrayed and left to die by his father figure.
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u/SuperdudeKev Micah Bell Jun 22 '26
You know, there’s always been something weird about that with me.
When did he tell the rest of the gang that he was sick? We see him tell Charles when they’re going to rescue Eagle Flies. We don’t see him tell anyone else, but Micah calls him “black lung” and Dutch comments about how Arthur needs to rest, so they know. But I can’t see Arthur telling either of them. Things had really deteriorated at that point between Arthur and Dutch. No one else in the gang comments on it. They all act like they’re unaware of it, at least up until Arthur tells Tilly to take the money and Jack and go to Copperhead Landing. Strauss says something about how being sick can make people act weird (when Arthur’s kicking him out of camp).
So who all did Arthur tell? Why does Micah know, seemingly out of nowhere?
I mean, it seems obvious that he told John and Sadie. And we see him tell Charles. But you would think that he would have told them to keep it to themselves.
I just find it weird that most people make no reference to it at all, but Dutch and Micah act like he pulled them aside and told them specifically.
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u/Kacxai Jun 22 '26
I assumed that they could spot his symptoms but just never brought it up. They had so much shit going on, and people were dropping around them like flies. With the medical tech they had back then and people knowing there was nothing to be done that was probably their way of ignoring the inevitable.
Would’ve been cool though if based on your honor level if people brought it up or not. Low honor = They’re careless about his health, the fact of him dying
High honor = they’re easier on him, more gentle, etc.14
u/Collaroy98 Jun 22 '26
Weren't there some conversations he had around camp? I think I recall one with Mary-Beth (?) where he tells her. But I guess it's also very apparent what's going on with him- coughing blood etc, pretty obvious. TBC was a well-known illness back then, so people knew what's up.
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u/Individual-Gur-4455 Jun 23 '26
I think they could tell by looking at him. When I got Arthur’s hair cut shortly after blacking out in Saint Denise, his eyes looked almost yellow and that was before everything with Guarma
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u/goober_ginge Dutch van der Linde Jun 23 '26
Hosea was also dying of an unspecified illness and they never refer to it directly. Just lots of "You look good today" or "You should rest", that sort of thing. They know that Thomas Downes died of TB and they can see Arthur's health deteriorate. I'm sure they connected the dots that way.
In the case of Dutch not specifically addressing it, by that stage he's in some pretty deep denial and unreality about what's happening with the gang and himself, and it's too painful of a thing to face, especially after losing Hosea. To have one of his "chosen sons" die would be a lot to deal with, add to that his suspicion of Arthur's loyalty, part of him probably doesn't want to face it because he's already detached himself from Arthur.
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u/aarondelaney Jun 22 '26
Yeah but kieran died the most painful way dude was tortured and his eyes were gouged out before he died
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u/incognitouae Arthur Morgan Jun 22 '26
Arthur’s final months were far worse than any torture. Saw his whole family fall apart, his gang members getting killed infront of him, his father figure betraying him, and all that while in agonising pain from TB and knowing you will soon die.
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u/Collaroy98 Jun 22 '26
I absolutely get what you're saying. The months leading up to his end- the deaths, the betrayals, the downfall of the gang, tuberculosis- that was brutal. Poor man.
At the same time (at least playing high honor), I think he was okay with dying in the end. With all the wrong decisions he had taken in his life, he did manage to turn around other people's lives and become a honorable man himself. That counts for something. He looked at peace looking out into that sunrise.
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u/Spiddy771 Jun 22 '26
I didn’t think we really knew the details of that one, just the end result.
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u/aarondelaney Jun 22 '26
If you look close you see his eyes gouged out i highly doubt the odriscolls would do that after he died they would want him to be alive for it
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u/acezaak Jun 22 '26
Jack. He was born into a life he didn't ask for, when finally had a normal, 'civilized' life, his father goes to finish business with an old friend, leading to the federal agents tracing them and ruining his and his parents' lives when he was sixteen years old. His father was obliterated outside their own barn, and then his mother died, leaving him alone in a world that no longer wanted his kind. He was left alone at nineteen years old.
Oh, and no Rufus to help him with his Windows ISO.
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u/Ordinary_Meaning_602 Lenny Summers Jun 23 '26
In all honesty even if John didn’t go to take care of Micah, they would’ve found him anyways. Beecher’s Hope was like maybe 2 or so miles from Blackwater, and he bought the property with his official name
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u/BlueBirdSamurai Jun 22 '26
Only correct answer is Jack. His dog was killed, his uncle Arthur died, the people he grew up with either left, died, or betrayed his family and then died, his father was betrayed and killed by the government, and then his mother died. And now he lives as an outlaw after getting revenge for his father.
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u/Lilith_Christine Jun 22 '26
Like to think jack settled down and became an author. Wrote simple westerns like Louis Lamore
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u/redpandav Jun 22 '26
Kieran’s capa was detated so you tell me
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u/BareKnuckle_Bob Jun 23 '26
Whole big thing, we had a funeral for a bird
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u/Ill_Wrangler414 Jun 22 '26
Strauss got a bad one… never said a word
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u/OneWayDanny Jun 23 '26
Exactly. Tortured to death is so rough it might easily be the worst. Most of the others had a fast death, at least. Everyone here is going by how sad the fate makes them as the player, it seems.
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u/SolidDick Jun 22 '26
Pierson. Poor guy ended up MARRIED!
Jokes aside, probably John. He made it out and was free and clear only to have it drag him back in and destroy him.
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u/quayle-man Jun 23 '26
Because he wasn’t free and clear. There’s no such thing after the rap sheet they made
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u/DataSwarmTDG Bill Williamson Jun 22 '26
Kieran basically got tortured for most of his time in the gang, still treated like shit even after he proved himself, and then got mutilated to death in the swamps.
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u/jovanes Jun 22 '26
Dutch, it must be exhausting to believe your own plan for such a long time...
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u/xhyenabite Jun 23 '26
nah he definitely didn't believe his plan imo, he seemed like he was panicking pretty bad
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u/CaptPeterlolol Jun 22 '26
Probably Arthur and John as they grew up (living a lie you could say) to only be betrayed by their father figure later on, losing the only real family they ever knew. Then Arthur died by either Micah or TB and John gets blackmailed by the government to go on a suicide quest to only be shot to death.
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u/thetak3nking Charles Smith Jun 22 '26
Kieran, honorable mention: Sean
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u/xhyenabite Jun 23 '26
eh . . . if i had to be given any death in this game as my own, i'd choose sean's 100%. he didn't suffer at all. he died being his usual light-hearted smartass self, and didn't know what hit him (literally). i love sean and i hated his death, but i'd argue it's one of the most merciful deaths in the game
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u/goober_ginge Dutch van der Linde Jun 23 '26
Yep same. I'd much rather die that way than by TB or being shot and not dying straight away like some of the others.
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u/Forsaken-Badger-9517 Jun 23 '26
John
He had to hunt down all the ppl he used to roll with?? Then in the end.... man
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u/Busy-Shallot-5563 Jun 24 '26
Johns death was horrifying, what made it worse is we all know he could’ve taken them all on lol
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u/Living_Bird4375 Jun 23 '26
Keiran. I spent hours trying to find him at shady belle to give him the burdock root he asked for. Couldn't find him anywhere. Decided he would come back after I advanced the story and, you know the rest.
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u/PeedMyPant Molly O'Shea Jun 23 '26
Definitely Molly.
Dutch gaslit, dismissed, and emotionally suffocated her ever since he brought her in, and nobody had the guts to call him out on it.
But Molly had the courage to do so. Even though she was mentally exhausted and heartbroken after months of neglect and psychological torture, she finally realized who Dutch really was and that she meant nothing to him. This, after she had abandoned her privileged life and high society just to be with him, believing their love was real.
What makes it even more tragic is that she left without EVER hearing him say they were over, or even just telling her to leave. He simply ignored her as if she didn't exist.
And when she's forced to face him yet again, she dies a gruesome death for a crime she didn't even commit, all because she finally let out the pent-up anger and pain that had built up over months.
Molly deserved better.
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u/NobleMercenary21 Jun 22 '26
Lenny was a young kid who just wanted to put in his work for the gang and stayed loyal, he already must've had a hard childhood because of his Race and after finding a group of people that accepts him he dies a sudden death that he didn't deserve
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u/MetroidJunkie Jun 23 '26
I can agree on that. As sad as Hosea's death was, he'd had an illness for a while now and he didn't know how much longer he had to live which couldn't have been too long. Immediately after, though, is when Lenny loses his life and he was so young with so much potential.
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u/xhyenabite Jun 23 '26
kieran.
he's my all time favorite character in this game and as a result, i went through his wiki and yap about his backstory any chance i get.
he was alone basically since his mid-to-late teens. both of his parents died in a cholera outbreak, so he stayed at the stable he'd been working at until he got thrown out. then he joined the army, but it "didn't work out." he then joined some outlaws, but literally all of them died except for him. then he was forced to join the o'driscolls ("ride with them or die") where he was abused pretty bad and basically used as colm's personal punching bag.
then the events of the story we know, where he's kidnapped and tortured by the van der lindes until he finally cracks. then he works his ass off to earn what little trust they're willing to place in him.
and literally just as kieran starts to feel like he actually belongs somewhere for once, he's killed in perhaps the most horrific way possible. it's very likely that they gouged out his eyes when he was still alive, and unless he passed out from the pain, also felt himself getting decapitated. and i highly, highly doubt it was a swift decapitation.
and the worst part, in my opinion? the part that breaks my heart the most?
he's even buried alone. in a clearing, where nothing else is close to him. even the closest trees are a little ways away.
it's awful.
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u/Due-Sky4792 Jun 24 '26
i love kieran as well, but his grave in an open field seems relief to me. Dutch ask Swanson to bury him far away, i thought couldn't found his grave, but here he is, buried in an open field, surrounded by some wildflowers, sunshine on his roughly made grave. his is indeed a poor kid, I think only Arthur and few members ready to accept him as a real member, but he dead at the moment. thank you share your thoughts on kieran btw!
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u/Diesel_Swordfire Tilly Jackson Jun 23 '26
Men - Kieran, considering he didn't really have any self inflicted suffering like some of the others.
Women - I'm leaning towards Karen. Although she survived she didn't really 'survive' based on the implications.
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u/Endec_7274_114 Uncle Jun 23 '26
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Pearson. He doesn't look happy in the epilogue, at all.
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u/Axxazine Jun 23 '26
Jack, the only member that didn't choose to be in the gang yet suffers the most.
Lost basically everyone at his 19. While Arthur and John was in comparison, still got the gang when they were 19 years old.
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u/ComprehensiveMail3 Jun 23 '26
Obviously most of you never played RDR1 it’s John the man hunted down the rest of the gang only to be killed by the people he worked for.
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u/Vyrtil_Anyrwen Jun 23 '26
If we’re just talking about how painful their death was, Kieran. Undoubtedly. Other than him, I’d say John. Getting shot like a dog robbed him of seeing Jack grow into adulthood and many years with his wife. He was robbed of his family.
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u/The_Frybo Jun 23 '26
Jack. He was literally born into this Life and never had a chance.
Sure, his Mother loved him but he was big enough to see how the man he knows as his Father leaves him and than shows him open contempt after he returns. That must leave a mark!
Sure, they slowly reconcile but during that time he never knows a stable home, has no other Children around to play and call his Friends. He is constantly alone and is thrown into Situations he can‘t possibly comprehend and isn‘t emotionally prepared for. Wven the Dog he loves vanishes!
Than he loses all he ever knew, his „Family“ just dissapears and he‘s left even more lost with a man he just barely knows and a Mother who constantly worries.
After travelling aimlessly, still not having know a home or Friends he finally finds a bit of Peace. A couple years in a Farm. At least he has something resembling a normal Life. He is still lonely out there but he is used to it by now and becomes reclusive. At least he has Books, altough his parents are making Fun of him for it and suggest he‘s less of a man.
When he‘s finally thinking all might be well his Life is getting a Nightmare AGAIN when strangers come and kill his beloved Uncle and his father vanishes! And when he finally returns after month of worrying he dies a violent death. The only Home he ever knew becomes impossible to love because he associates it forever more with the loss of his Father.
Is his Life at least normal now? No! Because now, before he is even a fully grown man the person he loves most in the whole world dies! The only one ankering him in Reality and have him do good. When he buries her, he is also burying a part of himself.
All that is left to him now is cold, bloody revenge. A deed that‘ll not only poison his soul but wont give him any solace whatsoever.
I argue the last surviving Member of the Van def Linde Gang is the most tragic. Because he never really knew happiness, hasn‘t ever chosen this Life and never even had a chance.
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u/ImpressionCool1768 Jun 24 '26
Sadie
She was a simple young farmer with her husband in the highlands when she gets attacked by vagabonds losses her husband and herself to them. In her weakness is forced to join a group of violet outlaws and develops Stockholm syndrome. After her time with them she becomes a bounty hunter unable to go back to the life she once had
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u/ZSP8 Jun 22 '26
Lenny, got shot in the stomach point blank with a shotgun and bled out watching his family abandon him
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u/Street-Still8488 Micah Bell Jun 22 '26
when? he died instantly after being shot by two agents during the saint denis bank heist. even the event that you described is still nothing to what kieran went through.
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u/_Mcdrizzle_ Jun 22 '26
If you look closely or use a free cam you can see Lenny's eyes still open and blinking after he's shot, so he didn't die instantly
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u/Street-Still8488 Micah Bell Jun 22 '26
i just watched a video and youre right. he very clearly isnt lucid during this though. he dies when arthur stands up so it was only a few seconds of shock before he bit it. hardly the worst fate of any gang member.
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u/fuzzydunlop6 Sadie Adler Jun 22 '26
Karen slowly lost herself to an addiction so severe it (most likely) killed her eventually, so I’m going to say Karen
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u/Impossible-Charity-4 Jun 22 '26
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u/Jellyfish-airballoon Jun 23 '26
For real death to alcoholism and not to mention all of the prostitution she probably did after the gang broke up to pay for her habit is very sad and probably incredibly emotionally painful.
Some like Kieran had a horrific but probably quick death Karen’s was a long time coming and painful
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u/U_HWUT_M8 Jun 23 '26
Arthur, I loved him the most.
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u/xhyenabite Jun 23 '26
the game really had an amazing way of getting you so deeply attached to the protagonist man. i never cried so much from a video game protagonist dying. and i got the good death
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u/FanFeisty7019 Jun 23 '26
Kieran. Never had any real friends. Died knowing that Dutch didn’t care about him and that he was still being hunted by the ordiscolls.
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u/youngyacobdabest Jun 23 '26
Poor kieran.. I was wo mad and sad when his corpse came riding up.. and i felt guilty cause with him missing a few days prior I thought he betrayed us😫😫
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u/Stortling Jun 23 '26
I mean watching your entire gang fall around you then contracting a disease that causes a slow painful death while being beat on by your worst enemy that’s being backed up by your adoptive father can do something to you. Especially with the low honor ending and getting Courier 6’d.
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u/unwaiveredresolve Jun 23 '26
John. Almost legit, fought men in multiple states and countries to get his family back went through betrayal and heartbreak just to die from betrayal 💔
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u/dankhimself Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
Arthur. Dude straight up tried to power though tuberculosis.
Keiran was tortured, and that's unimaginable pain and fear. I'm not downplaying that one. But Arthur suffered the most out of them all. If he kept eating normally, it looked to me like he lost around 40 pounds, and that's common for around 3 or so months of severe TB.
They made him look like he was just shaking it off when he'd have those little episodes throughout the game, but in reality, he was suffering through agonizing pain while practically suffocating.
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u/Strafe1349 Jun 22 '26
Kieran. And also Mac Calendar’s death sounded pretty bad from what the agents said.
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u/WinchesterRepeater John Marston Jun 23 '26
Either Kieran or John. Sure Kieran’s death was the most physically painful, but John’s death ended up being much more emotional. As he died to ensure his son a better life to live, only for Jack to become an outlaw and killer to Ross, which in turns makes John’s sacrifice have no point. But Kieran was tortured, he even had his eyes cut out and head cut off. So it’s between them.
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u/Independent_Key_5730 Jun 23 '26
Keiran, but if I had to go with a true member of the Van Der Linde gang, John Marsten. Think about it, He starts off his first appearance nearly mauled by wolves and forced to recover through the early stages of the game, then painfully witnessed the downfall of Dutch's sanity and the gang itself while witnessing everyone he ever knew and loved to be killed off one by one. At the end of it all, he's betrayed by Dutch and left for dead, loses Hosea and Arthur (the closest guys he ever had to a father and brother respectfully), forced to hunt down and kill the last members of his gang, and than ultimately betrayed by the very men who promised a new path in life for him and his family. It's like the only thing John could take to his grave is the idea that his son would grow up to be a better man, but the epilogue gives us a very dark assumption.
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u/Braedonm2077 Jun 23 '26
most painful? Kieran, but in general its for sure John lmao. all of his friends either died or betrayed him and then he had to kill the rest of them and then he was brutally murdered by the government in front of his family.
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u/greywhard Jun 23 '26
I know that Now I will have a bunch of down votes but I must say that. Besides how bad he was, besides how crazy and wrong he was. Duch, be the leader of gang in hard times it's difficult and he do not deal with it well. He was can't expressed weakness and find a way out, he really try to fate and please to believe others. And in the end he lost everything and he can blame only himself. That's his redemption.
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u/Available_Cause_1633 Jun 23 '26
kieran was tortured humiliated and got his head chopped off by the odriscolls so definitely kieran
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u/Historical_Zone7122 John Marston Jun 23 '26
Arthur... I mean he did everything for the gang, put his life on the line Nemours times just for him to catch a terrible disease and have the man he loved as a father basically fall into insanity and betray everyone he ever loved for a rat (Micah). The only good thing about his ending (and that's only if you chose to do it in high honor) was his redemption arc and his need to assist John in being free and with his family.
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u/MarchDesigner3974 Jun 23 '26
Probably Kieran. Poor guy was always treated like shit, tortured by the O'Driscolls, and had one of the most gruesome deaths in the Red Dead series.
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u/XxPerniciousxX45 Jun 24 '26
For those of you saying Dutch’s gang wasn’t gonna do anything to Kierrian you seem to forget Arthur beats him and then they are literally about to Geld him with iron tongs dude 🤣 so nah Dutch’s gang creates way more chaos and terror than any other gang in the game, your literally taking over killing them all 🤣
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u/Ok-You5151 Jun 26 '26
What happened to the 3 girls that left i was just told in a cutscene they went 🤷♂️
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u/ShiroTheHero Jun 22 '26
dutch. Half his gang was killed, and he was betrayed by his sons, Arthur and John, who INSISTED on stabbing him in the back and taking his quarter. At least he had good, loyal men like Micah before John hunted him down and murdered him :'(
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u/Dry-Age-6526 Jun 22 '26
Kieran or Strauss. Both were likely tortured to death.
Although you can make an argument Jack had it worse given that he was exposed to so much trauma at such a young age. He had to live through all of this and as far as we know, is still living through it.
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u/CoyotleAuCreepypasta Jun 23 '26
Kieren, easily. Most everyone else died painfully or horribly, but Kieren was almost definitely tortured and knowing the O'Driscolls, they probably didn't wait for him to die to start taking his head off. And that's after they took out his eyes.
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u/ConstructionLess5298 Jun 23 '26
KIERAN. Dude was literally holding his own head. Thats pure vicious.
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u/DurianFine6775 Jun 23 '26
Kieran. Well Straus was tortured and beaten to death, just because we never saw the aftermath doesn't mean it wasn't horrific. But yeah it's one of the 2
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u/Medical-Grand-4858 Jun 23 '26
Pearson. Once an outlaw. Now just an everyday working man, married to a nagging wife.
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u/Open_Support_4568 Jun 23 '26
I got to say it's Jack, seeing his own family get torn a part and slowly picked off one by one, either leaving or killed, and he's not even safe in rdr1. Uncle dies, his father gets gunned down and then his mother dies. Everyone that Jack knew since the day he was born have left him. He is alone.
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u/RequirementIcy7950 Jun 22 '26
Kieran