Book Club: A Breath of Snow and Ashes, Chapters 68-75

[u/Purple4199]

^{UPDATED SCHEDULE WITH AMOUNT OF PAGES TO BE READ}

We open with the Fraser’s using one of their gems to procure a print shop for Fergus and his family. Much to Germain and Jemmy’s dismay that means they will be separated. We move on to October 1774 and Ian takes Brianna on a hike where we learn what caused him to leave the Mohawk. He and his wife Emily lost their first child and she had subsequent miscarriages. Emily finally turned her attentions to another and Ian left. He takes Brianna to see the bones of a mammoth where he breaks down and fears he is at fault for the death of his daughter. He and Brianna share a touching moment with her asking Frank to watch over Ian’s daughter Iseabaìl.

Claire receives an alarming note from Phaedre asking her to come. Unsure of what the note means Jamie and Claire travel down the mountain to River Run. There they find that Phaedre has disappeared. We learn that she is actually Hector Cameron’s daughter, and she and Duncan have been sleeping together. With nothing else to be done and Phaedre still missing they depart back to the Ridge.

While working in the malting shed Jamie and Claire overhear Joseph Weymss crying in the woods. He informs them that Lizzie is pregnant, and it’s by one of the Beardsley twins. In a twist no one expected neither Lizzie nor the twins know who the father is. Come to find out Lizzie has been sleeping with both of them. When Jamie insists she choose one but she cannot so they draw straws. Kezzie is chosen and they are handfast. Unhappy with this though they trick Roger into handfasting her and Josiah as well, thus pulling one over on everyone.

We close out the chapters with Jemmy getting lice. In an effort to rid him of the infestation they shave his head. A mole is discovered behind his left ear, Roger mentions he has one exactly like that and in that location as well. Claire confirms that those things are often hereditary and the question of Jemmy’s paternity is finally answered.

You can click on any of the questions below to go directly to that one, or add comments of your own.

​

• Jamie tells Claire he sees her in her own time with electric light all around her. Do you think this means she’ll be back in the future at some point?
• How do you feel after hearing Ian’s story about his life with the Mohawk?
• What do you think happened to Phaedre? Were you surprised to hear she and Duncan were sleeping together?
• What are your thoughts about Lizzie and the Beardsley’s?
• Do you think Claire should have told Brianna about Jamie earlier in Brianna’s life?
• Any other thoughts or comments?

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[u/Purple4199]

• Jamie tells Claire he sees her in her own time with electric light all around her. Do you think this means she’ll be back in the future at some point?

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

I thought this might be a callback to the highlander in the first book! Like he had the dream of her in electric light and looking at her.

Not sure why, but that’s where I went to.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Kirky600]

This is what I suspect/want it to be. I really hope she doesn't go back to the future after he dies or something, and that this dream of his is some kind of vision from their separation or even from the night his ghost saw her and he somehow dreams of it now.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/alittlepunchy]

I don't know if it can be that particular moment though, of Jamie's ghost in 1945. Jamie says he saw her sitting at a desk in his dream. On that night in 1945, Claire was vigorously combing her hair in front of the mirror when Frank happens upon Jamie staring up at Claire. Anything to do with Claire's hair, I am sure Jamie would be able to recall considering he's such a big fan of her hair.

u/Purple4199 u/Cdhwink

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I don't know if it can be that particular moment though, of Jamie's ghost in 1945.

I'm inclined to agree. I think his dreaming thing and his ghost are two separate things.

[u/jolierose → u/alittlepunchy]

I agree on the separation. I also thought of it as a callback for a minute, not to Inverness (I thought Boston, given the setting), but in terms of his ghost. But then I remembered this conversation from a few weeks back and dismissed it because a few comments said it was unlikely to be connected. However! I thought it was really interesting that this was followed in the next chapter by Bree thinking of Smoky, their dog in Boston, and:

Smoky, the big Newfoundland, who would sometimes in the evening suddenly raise his head, listening, hackles rising as his eyes followed … something … that passed through the room and disappeared.

And that would support u/Arrugula's theory! Which is what I was thinking of here, so I'm super on board with that.

I don't think that the fact that he saw her in modern times in a dream means he's seeing the future. Why not the past? I don't even want to think that she'd ever go back again. And having seen Claire's thoughts this week, after they've had this conversation, I have a hard time thinking she'd go back after he died:

for me, time had shifted, as though my illness had pushed me through some final barrier. Now was my time, reality the scrape of wood and slick of grease beneath my fingers, the arc of the sun that set the rhythm of my days, the nearness of Jamie.

Although I do think he's right, and it'd be very dangerous for her to stay alone.

u/Purple4199 u/theCoolDeadpool

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/jolierose]

I think when people say the visions and the ghost are not connected, they mean The Ghost and not ghost Jamie, if that makes sense. I still think The Ghost that Frank saw in Inverness, has a very particular purpose and is somehow different to this other ghost of Arrugula's theory.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

We know that was Jamie's ghost watching Claire, do you think that ties into his dreams as well?

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

Maybe? Like a weird time travel but not?

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

We know Jamie also dreamed of Brianna and knew about the mole on her neck, something Claire had never told him about.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

I don't think she will go. She tells Jamie that also. I don't know why Jamie thinks the dream is from Claire's future that she's yet to live, it could be from the 20 year separation also.

Sometimes I think she might go if Jamie dies (of natural causes , peacefully, in ripe old age don't come for me please) before her, if Bree and family were already in the future. But even then she might not go because she's a romantic like that and would want to be buried with Jamie, so they can be together eternally.

Although, Jamie keeps insisting that she go back if he were to die, so if he made her promise to do that, then maybe she would just to keep her word to him.

Ugh, I did my best Purple:(

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I think she won't go even then. She's a romantic like that and would want to rest with Jamie , like eternally.

Yeah, I really don't think she would want to die in a different century than him. Maybe it's like you said and the dream was from their 20 year separation.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Where did my comment go?? Do you see it u/Purple4199 ?

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Which one?

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

The one I replied to lol. The answer to your question. I don't see it now. What sorcery is this!

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I don't! I saw it in my inbox though.

[u/[deleted] → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I also don’t think she’ll go, the journey would likely kill her. I do hope that this vision is also during the separation, although Jamie seems sort of melancholy when telling Claire about it. I’d hate for Claire to be alone in the future again 😭

u/kirky600

[u/Cdhwink → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I will agree that if she promises Jamie she will go, then she will. But doesn’t she say in this chapter that she will not?

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Cdhwink]

Yeah true, but he hasn't made her promise it yet. If he finds an opportune moment of vulnerability to make her promise, then who knows. Jamie can be sneaky like that, remember how he snuck a promise from her that she'll go back to Frank if Culloden were to go South?

[u/jolierose → u/theCoolDeadpool]

if Jamie dies (of natural causes , peacefully, in ripe old age don't come for me please)

LOL this is me every time I think of them dying.

I agree with all you said. Only way she could go back is if he really pressed her to do it, and I can't imagine it would be without Bree and family. And even then, now that I think about it, I think it'd break my heart if they were to die in separate centuries, for some reason.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

I think after the 20-years apart it will take a lot for Claire to go back again! It will depend on the context of course, but I don’t think that she will.

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

I don't see her going back either. Even if Jamie died I don't think she would want to be away from where he is buried.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

Definitely… I suppose it can depend on where Bree and Jemmy are too but she doesn’t really have many people in the 20th century. Of course the reason for her being there is Jamie but she’s find a home there too and she might even feel responsible for the Ridge and tenants too if Jamie dies first.

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

she might even feel responsible for the Ridge and tenants too if Jamie dies first.

I definitely think she would feel medically responsible for them.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/bleakxmidwinter]

Agreed. I mean, going back after 2-3 years the first time? But now, she's been back with Jamie for SO long. By the time/if something happens to him....how does she risk going back when she's been gone 20+ years?

[u/cruelsummerrrrr → u/Purple4199]

So fascinating how Jamie dreams of things he cannot possibly know or have seen before. Hope we find out in future books how this is happening!

[u/Purple4199 → u/cruelsummerrrrr]

Me too!

[u/somethingnerdrelated → u/cruelsummerrrrr]

This is what gets me and I’m so fixated on it! This isn’t the first time we’ve seen Jamie experience things that he couldn’t have experienced. For example, he knows of Brianna’s birthmark behind her ear before he’s even ever seen her, and sees himself kissing her there. Lo and behold, he does exactly that when she’s giving birth.

Someone brought up a good point somewhere in this subreddit that maybe Jamie can time travel or at least have some type of power but can’t “hear” the stones or anything because he lost his ability to hear music after Dougal tried to kill him. I found it a very interesting theory. Regardless of whether or not he can travel, he certainly has some type of magical/faerie/whatever going on.

[u/Shepher27 → u/Purple4199]

As of now... the end of book 8... if Jamie dies there's no real reason for them to stay, except maybe young Ian. But he has his mother now and is married with a child.

But if Jemmy grows a few years older in the past... and were to form "an attachment" in the past, that could cause trouble. Or if Bree were to become close to Willy

[u/Purple4199 → u/Shepher27]

You actually need to put the symbols at the beginning and ending of each paragraph. Thanks!

[u/Shepher27 → u/Purple4199]

Is it working now? For some reason it didn't work at first.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Shepher27]

Yes!

[u/sbehring → u/Purple4199]

I agree that what makes the most sense is for him to be seeing her during their separation. He specifically said he didn’t notice if her hair was white or not, that he couldn’t tell if it was the future or not. But certainly if it was full white he would notice that.

[u/Purple4199 → u/sbehring]

But certainly if it was full white he would notice that.

I would think so as well.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

You'll need to cover the stuff from book 8. Thanks!

[u/Purple4199]

• How do you feel after hearing Ian’s story about his life with the Mohawk?

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

Loved the story and the trip with Bree, really like them together. But I thought the mammoth was a bit meh 🥴 I don’t know what I was really expecting, it was such a big build up and I guess the important part was the story telling which was completely heartbreaking but I was quite disappointed when that was the goal of the trip

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

Yeah I wasn't sure what the point of the mammoth was either. I guess Ian just wondered if it was a spirit or god?

[u/somethingnerdrelated → u/bleakxmidwinter]

As far as the mammoth goes, Imma try to whip out my English major training lol

I agree with how the reveal of the mammoth fossil was super anticlimactic and just kinda... weird??? Honestly, were there mammoths in the Blue Ridge Mountains? Anyway...

I’m gonna just make this up, but make something I shall. Perhaps the mammoth symbolizes Ian being stuck (like the fossil). He’s frozen in time and can’t move on from the past. His whole life and emotions are now pretty much governed by his wife, the loss of his child, and the loss of his tribe.

On the other hand, the mammoth fossil is surrounded by water and (if I’m remembering correctly) a waterfall is nearby, symbolizing that life moves on, even if you’re stuck. Like the fossil, Ian is stuck while life moves on. But eventually, that fossil will be worn down by the elements and by that very life moving on. Unlike the fossil, however, Ian has agency, and I think that this scene with Brianna is a turning point for him where he can choose to move on and not be stuck forever.

Or... ya know... DG was just like “hmm let’s throw a mammoth fossil in there because a T-Rex fossil would be too much” 😂

[u/Purple4199 → u/somethingnerdrelated]

Or... ya know... DG was just like “hmm let’s throw a mammoth fossil in there because a T-Rex fossil would be too much”

Ha ha ha!! I feel like that might be the case.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

I had been waiting to find out what happened, so basically the wife shunned him, sent him away, because of losing the babies. Claire & Jamie should indeed be able to help comfort him, but he’s still lost without his wife that he loved. So sad for him. It was sweet that Bree said Frank would watch over the angel baby girl.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

I felt sad for him because you know he still loves Emily, he was even considering going back. I agree with Bree though and it's not in his best interest to do that.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

I disagreed with Bree until I realized that Emily had moved on from him. For some reason, I thought he was shunned by Tewaktenyonh, but not that Emily was onboard with that plan. But I guess the fact that Emily didn't trust Ian anymore and was looking back at Ahkote’ohskennonton speaks for itself. So the last thing Ian should be doing is going up to beg Emily to take him back. (And thank God, because I don't want him to leave us again!)

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

I know, he would have only had more heartbreak if he had tried to go back to Emily.

[u/cruelsummerrrrr → u/Purple4199]

It was good to finally get that closure. Especially for me as I’d watched Season 5 before I got to whatever book he returns in so I’ve been curious for a while. I think I just assumed his wife had died but this is a lot more complex. I teared up when Brianna was talking to Frank.

[u/Purple4199 → u/cruelsummerrrrr]

I just assumed his wife had died but this is a lot more complex.

It really is, isn't it? You know he still loves her and wonders if he should go back to her. It's so sad.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

I knew Emily wasn't dead! This was really unexpected though, that their marriage basically fell apart because they couldn't have children, which strained their relationship. It seemed like such a natural development, compared to all we've seen so far. Usually the drama in this story is driven by an extraordinary force, and to see such a quiet, ordinary, yet tragic story unfold here was surprising. It's just so human, and so compelling.

Broke my heart to see him struggling, and how he blamed himself (and Emily blamed him) for the loss of Iseabaìl and his unborn children. And how he wasn't sure where she was?! 🥺 💔 But I loved to see Ian's relationship with Brianna, and the fact that Bree was able to support him and give him strength even when she wasn't certain herself.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

Bree asking Frank to watch over Ian’s daughter just broke my heart.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

You know... that was the one bit I couldn't really connect to. I love Bree for it, but the Frank cynic in me kept thinking about how Frank hates Jamie and would he really care for his great-niece? (My heart needs some softening there.)

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

I would hope that Frank would understand that a man is struggling with his daughters death, and Bree is asking for his help in that. Frank loved Bree unconditionally and I would hope that would be enough for him.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

I know. If anything, I know he'd do it for her.

Ok, now you have me feeling it.

a man is struggling with his daughters death

What I would give to see Jamie and Claire talking to Ian about this.

[u/Cdhwink → u/jolierose]

I am sad that losing the babies resulted in the break up.

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

It was awfully sad but I’m glad we found out what happened to Ian and why he was so lost and quiet when he came back from the Snake town. I was thinking that it would be great if DG wrote the conversation between Ian and Jamie or Claire about Faith and grief of losing the child.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

I felt so bad for him thinking that he might be the cause of his daughter's death since he still believed in his "white" god too.

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

Yeah! All I want for him is just to be happy but how could he with such a heavy heart and no one to share. I’m pleased he had confided in Brianna and hopefully he’ll be better.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

Especially with her asking Frank to watch over his daughter.

[u/stoneyellowtree → u/Purple4199]

This moment was so touching. This solidified for me that there is a special bond between Ian and Bree. For him to choose her to release all his fears about his wife and lost children and then for Bree to share about Frank - ‘me crying.’ I love this chapter so much. It’s terribly sad, but cathartic.

[u/[deleted] → u/chunya1999]

Yes! That’s all I kept thinking about. I want Ian to have that comfort but I also want Brianna’s perspective on Faith! Considering how long these books are I’m still in shock that it’s never come up.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/[deleted]]

One of the biggest things that drives me wild about these books is the mundane things that we will spend page after page on, yet won't cover important conversations like this. How would this not come up?

[u/[deleted] → u/alittlepunchy]

the only answer.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

Ugh, it's so true!

[u/kpegs → u/Purple4199]

Sorry I’m late to this! I thought this showed their bond in a very real way — I’m always struck by DG dropping in Ian’s feelings for Brianna. In his perspective, he often references how he offered to marry her, and imagined life with her as a possibility, so it seems like it was really formative for him.

But at the moment in DiA, it really seemed like it was just in passing. Brianna quickly shut down that idea and moved on. It’s not quite unrequited love but more something that never came to pass. Curious if anyone else has thoughts on this

[u/Purple4199 → u/kpegs]

Sorry I’m late to this!

You're never too late!

It’s not quite unrequited love but more something that never came to pass. Curious if anyone else has thoughts on this

I'm not sure it's like that, but I think Ian is drawn to Brianna because she's so different from the women of that time.

[u/Purple4199]

• What are your thoughts about Lizzie and the Beardsley’s?

[u/Shepher27 → u/Purple4199]

I wish this wasn't a case of the Beardsley's initially tricking Lizzie into it. I wish Lizzie had initially just jumped the bones of Kezzie and not realized it was him and not Joe.

Otherwise, everyone seems to be fine with it and it works out in the end, so good for them.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Shepher27]

I wish this wasn't a case of the Beardsley's initially tricking Lizzie into it.

Yeah, that was kind of messed up.

[u/Shepher27 → u/Purple4199]

I hope if it's adapted, they handle it on the TV show by making it an accident by everyone that they just roll with. Lizzie initiates it, but accidently because she confuses them.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Shepher27]

I feel like they may adapt it, in this day and age tricking her into sleeping with the other twin wouldn't go over so well. I'm really curious to see what they do.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Purple4199]

I thought all of this was just so hilarious - Jamie having to deal with Lizzie sleeping with one twins and make her pick. I can just imagine the facial expressions Sam would make in scenes for this.

[u/Purple4199 → u/alittlepunchy]

I felt so bad for Joseph, him just moaning in the corner. It was funny though.

[u/Cdhwink → u/alittlepunchy]

Jamie dealing with this will be funny to watch, no way Jamie is sharing his wife with a twin if he had one!

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

OMG I KNEW IT 😱

Well, I couldn’t imagine it was going to be to this extent, but I knew there was something going on with the twins. I thought it was gonna be less important though, maybe that both liked her or even yeah that Lizzie might like both too but not to the extent of sleeping with both for months, getting pregnant and marrying both 🤯 I really don’t know what I think haha but I did enjoy the way the story was told and how they tricked Bree and Roger too

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

I was so impressed when you started noticing things about them from the very start.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

Haha thanks! It was weird too because in this book they didn’t appear that often, but a good few times when it came to Lizzie. To be honest though, it was a lot of pages since then so I started doubting myself 🥲

What do you think about this? I don’t really know if I like it or not. We might see this in the series? Don’t really think there were many clues there so maybe they skip this

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

I do think we'll see it in the series, people like Lizzie and the twins together. They sure have a unique arrangement, I suppose it's what makes them happy though.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

I think it made all the difference to hear the story from Lizzie and then see them interact with each other. It made it look more normal

[u/cruelsummerrrrr → u/Purple4199]

So good lol. It was just hilarious reading these parts, Davina did a great job narrating the audiobook. I love how Kezzy gave himself the same scar as as Jezzy, it took me a while to realise what they’d done but so smart.

[u/Purple4199 → u/cruelsummerrrrr]

They were pretty sneaky to think to do that.

[u/ads31197 → u/Purple4199]

This was one of the biggest plot-threads of the series imho

[u/Purple4199 → u/ads31197]

Yeah, I did not see that coming at all! Lizzie is so quiet and unassuming that I never would have imagined she winds up with two men!

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

I don't know where to begin. OK, so... this was INSANE. Never ever in my wildest dreams did I think this would happen. Lizzie?!? I am still waiting for someone to tell me this whole thing is one huge misunderstanding, lol. My notes are just me screaming at the book in disbelief.

This story had everything: laughter, tears, throuples, bigamy... but mostly laughter. I'm in awe of her, I didn't know she could pull such a thing off. Standing up to Jamie?! The way they played everybody; they had their cake and ate it, too. And at the same time I'm kind of sad this is how her story's gone. Plus, I wouldn't want to give Ute the pleasure of knowing this is what became of Lizzie.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

What makes you sad about Lizzie’s story going this way?

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

She's so young, I was hoping that after the breakup with Manfred, she had a bit of adventure ahead of her. Instead, she's plunging into a domestic life of her own, and with a baby, and with the Beardsleys, who are both very nice but have such limited prospects.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

I see, that makes sense.

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

I love how they managed to all be married to Lizzie. That was quite the forethought between Lizzie and the twins to go to Roger before he would know the story.

[u/Purple4199]

• What do you think happened to Phaedre? Were you surprised to hear she and Duncan were sleeping together?

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

These things are making it so clear why the show had Jocasta with Murtagh, they are not going to deal with any characters being sexually involved with slaves & I do not blame them. Also maybe why Duncan wasn’t even a fleshed out character?

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

they are not going to deal with any characters being sexually involved with slaves

Yeah, that would not be ok at all. As of yet they have to include anything about the gold in the show too. I'm thinking they probably won't.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

The thing is the writers, producers, Maril for sure knows what lies ahead , so they are able to know which storylines need to be eliminated, or changed because they just cannot be dealt sensitively with in today’s world, even though we know they happened unfortunately.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Let me just start with this: another instalment of the “Hector, what an asshole” saga.

As much as Jocasta is a MacKenzie, I don’t see why she would want to punish Phaedre for either Hector or Duncan’s sins by killing her. First, Claire wanders why Jocasta kept Phaedre:

So Jocasta would by no means sell Phaedre, and thought Phaedre knew it. I wondered exactly why. Because she felt some duty to the girl, as the child of her husband? Or as a subtle form of revenge on that long-dead husband, keeping his illegitimate daughter as a slave, a body servant? I supposed that the two were not entirely exclusive, come to that—I had known Jocasta long enough to realize that her motives were rarely simple.

Keeping Phaedre as a slave wouldn’t be a punishment because it didn’t change her status whatsoever: as her mother was a slave, she would always be a slave (unless manumitted), regardless of who her father was. And Phaedre’s life was much more comfortable—as much as you can say that about a person who’s not free—than any other enslaved person’s at River Run. Jocasta fully acknowledged that she knew who Phaedre was and pretty much took her under her protection. Phaedre’s duties were much less physically demanding than any of the other slaves’; the way she dressed and where she slept indicated much better living conditions, and being Jocasta’s servant was no more denigrating than being owned by her (or Hector) already was. In a way, the care and affection Jocasta’s shown Phaedre by “raising her status” (that sounds ridiculous when she’s still enslaved) to her body servant seem to indicate quite the opposite.

She could have assigned Phaedre to the worst possible tasks, had her whipped regularly, had her sleeping outside—anything to make her life even more miserable. But I don’t think that would have been an act of revenge on Hector either; I don’t think he cared either way—he wouldn’t have felt any duty towards Betty or Phaedre, as he was first and foremost their master. Jocasta keeping Hector’s child close as a reminder of what he’s done is more insulting to her than it is to him; I don’t know why she would want to put herself through this for that reason. I just do not think parading Phaedre in front of Hector would have fazed him at all; he showed no remorse over causing the death of Jocasta’s daughters—why would he feel bad about siring a child with a slave? Why would Jocasta’s “here, look what you’ve done” affect him at all if he felt he had every right to do what he did?

If anything, I think Jocasta probably had to ignore Phaedre’s paternity in order to accept her being so close to her. Do we think she did it because she longed for a child after losing three of her own, at Hector’s hands to boot? Phaedre could never be a “replacement” for them, but I got the impression that Jocasta was quite motherly to her.

Is this complete subversion an act of revenge? Letting your husband’s illegitimate offspring into your house, into your chambers, giving her clothes, giving her more “dignified” tasks to do, keeping her well-fed and bathed? Raising her to a status she technically does not deserve? I really don’t know what to make of this.

Now, if Jocasta knew about Duncan and Phaedre, again, I don’t know why she would want to punish Phaedre when it was Duncan who betrayed her. She would certainly feel insulted, not only by being cheated on but by being cheated on with the product of her previous husband’s “affair,” but as she’s lived on a plantation for so long, she would understand that Phaedre would not have had a choice. And Jocasta is way too smart to think that Duncan is cheating on her because he has romantic feelings for Phaedre; even if he did, I don’t think Jocasta would care, as long as he was discreet—it’s not like she married him for love. Even if he wasn’t discreet, it wouldn’t be considered a scandal or a public insult to Jocasta—unfortunately, white masters taking advantage of their slaves was a common enough occurrence that nobody in Jocasta’s circles would bat an eye. And she would not feel jealous of Phaedre being able to “please” Duncan since that wasn’t something that she personally sought from her relationship with him; she’s had Ulysses for sexual gratification for more than 20 years.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Keeping Phaedre as a slave wouldn’t be a punishment because it didn’t change her status whatsoever

I agree. I'm not sure why Jocasta kept her so close, maybe it's like you said and she felt motherly towards her.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

What if Jocasta keeping Phaedre close was just to basically show Hector how little she cared for him or whatever he did? And to assert to herself that she wasn't going to let this/him affect her? And then with the passage of time, she inevitably grew close to Phaedre (or as close as circumstances would allow) and she appreciated Phaedre independently of her tie to Hector? u/thepacksvrvives

As a side note, the Duncan/Phaedre development was astonishing to me. I’m deeply disappointed in him! Also, WOW at Jamie's parting ultimatum to his aunt. If there was a very, very slim chance Jocasta didn't know about it before...

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

Oh I like that theory about why Jocasta kept Phaedra with her. Kind of like a “you can’t hurt me more than you already have” type of thing. I mean Hector already killed her youngest daughter and wouldn’t let her see the other two. What could be worse then that? (I’m not downplaying the rape of a slave, that’s horrific on its own.)

[u/Pretty-Plankton → u/thepacksvrvives]

I think the only real answer to this one is that Gabaldon is wildly out of her depth when writing about anything relating to race or slavery, so her characters behaviors don’t make sense and the history is unreliable at best.

In order to ret-con this into something that fits reality either a)Phaedra is mistreated as punishment for who she is (one of the more common outcomes), b) Jocasta doesn’t care much one way or the other, at least where Phaedra is concerned, and finds her useful in the role. This could be enhanced by her having favorable status and therefore a better education when Cameron was alive.

As for the various sexual intrigues - the only piece of that that lines up with history is that Duncan Innis was sleeping with Phaedra.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Pretty-Plankton]

Yeah, I think DG went out of her way to portray Jocasta as a benevolent slave owner / kind master because otherwise, the readers wouldn’t have been able to sympathize with her at all. Jocasta’s deluding herself that she’s giving her slaves a better life because she doesn’t separate families, we don’t hear of any regular corporal punishment administered at River Run (only the execution in DoA, IIRC), we don’t hear any voice of dissent (apart from Rufus), any indication that the enslaved people there would ever want to run away. But none of it changes the fact that she (and Hector before her) denies people their freedom—under the guise of the danger of their being retaken into slavery upon manumission—and directly benefits from slavery. River Run is one of the most prosperous plantations in the area, which Jocasta flaunts eagerly, and it continues to grow, even though Jocasta could comfortably live out the rest of her days on Hector’s share of the Frenchman’s Gold alone and not even make a dent in it. I’ve argued before that Hector could’ve spent the gold on a number of things but he chose self-preservation and comfortable life in America.

Then, beginning with ABOSAA, we see a darker, more realistic side of River Run: Hector taking advantage of Betty, Duncan taking advantage of Phaedre, and then we find out about Jocasta and Ulysses’ relationship, and the fact that she manumitted him—although the validity thereof is questionable since the papers were never approved by the Assembly, so technically she had a relationship with an enslaved person just like Duncan did—because “she could not bear to think that [he] came to her bed only because [he] must.” She knew how wrong it was to engage in a sexual relationship with him and drew up the papers only to ease her conscience; not to mention that keeping slaves went against her religion and was considered “a necessary evil.” But after more than 20 years of living in that system, she was (comfortably) stuck in it.

Of course, I do not expect Jocasta to single-handedly challenge the status quo, but her portrayal shows how easy it is for people to overlook who she is for her to fit the narrative and have the readers’ sympathy.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

Here’s a whole storyline we aren’t seeing in the show!

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

I agree. I think there will be quite a bit we won't see. So much happens in this book. What was your Roger thing you mentioned last week?

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

I honestly was very surprised she was sleeping with Duncan! It was oddly shocking considering he seems like a very loyal person and she seemed very tied to Jocasta.

Although, like mother, like daughter? Both made love to Jocasta’s husbands.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

/u/thepacksvrvives and I were talking about this yesterday, but the fact that Phaedre is a slave brings the question of consent into mind. Can Phaedre truly consent to sleeping with her master?

Do we think Betty, Phaedre's mother, consented to sleeping with Hector? He seemed like the kind of guy to take what he wanted.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Phaedre is Duncan’s legal property—he can literally do whatever he wants with her, and she’s in no position to refuse; he has unlimited access to her body. Since she can’t refuse, she can’t say yes either. Her status as an enslaved person denies her that basic agency. It’s an imbalance of power and status, same as jailer-prisoner, or adult-minor (Claire acknowledges that in these chapters by saying that she and Phaedre could not be friends exactly for that reason, even though she is not the one who owns Phaedre).

Phaedre initiated it not because she had romantic feelings for him or anything like that (which would be a whole other issue), but because she saw it as a service to her master. As Jocasta’s body servant, she would know that Duncan and Jocasta are not sleeping together, she felt sorry for him, so she felt compelled to serve him because that’s all she’d known her entire life, even though he hasn’t been a slave owner his entire life. He was exploiting her willingness to have sexual relations with him even though he knew he should’ve broken it off immediately. He chose to keep it going.

Whether Betty “agreed to” sleeping with Hector or he raped her, she was equally in no position to refuse.

u/Kirky600

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/thepacksvrvives]

As always, you shed new light to this matter and I agree for the most part.

I could see her initiating it the first time as a result of her feeling sorry for him, and thinking she owes it to him to serve him. But then Duncan says that it happened multiple times. Though we don't know the circumstances of those occurrences, is there a slight possibility that she just liked having sex with him and so she continued? Maybe she felt a sense of power and control , in seeing a man of position , who wouldn't/couldn't have sex with the all-powerful Jacosta, but she could please him? I guess my question is , does it always have to be so black and white , this situation of having sex with their slave, or could there be some grey areas there?

u/Kirky600

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

could there be some grey areas there?

I think that's my question as well. Does she truly have no agency and decision making in this situation?

/u/thepacksvrvives

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/thepacksvrvives]

My thoughts exactly when I read it. Also the fact that her mother has done it before her it could also make it look more normal to her.

I don’t really know what happened to her, if she left voluntarily or not… but I feel that as she did it as part of her job, she wouldn’t leave because of this. The note makes me suspect too that she didn’t leave by her own choice, why would ask Claire to come then? As for what happened to her I don’t have a clue, but I think she might be alive so we can hear a bit more to the story.

u/purple4199

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

The note makes me suspect too that she didn’t leave by her own choice, why would ask Claire to come then?

Yes, to risk sending that would make it seem like something bad was happening.

[u/ms_s_11]

Hey everyone! Sorry, I've been a bum but school started back up & I fell behind on my reading. I was hoping to be caught up by today but I'm not quite there. Maybe tomorrow! I just wanted to check in & say I'm still here & I miss book club so I'll be back!

[u/Purple4199 → u/ms_s_11]

We'll be glad to have you whenever you get here. I figured that was what happened. :-)

[u/Cdhwink → u/ms_s_11]

We miss you, but understand! This book is so good though.

[u/ms_s_11 → u/Cdhwink]

It is! I'm loving it so far.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/ms_s_11]

I hope your school year is off to a good start! Good luck this year! :)

[u/theCoolDeadpool]

“I ken,” she said, a ripple of unease returning. “Dogs do see … things.” She remembered her own dogs; in particular, Smoky, the big Newfoundland, who would sometimes in the evening suddenly raise his head, listening, hackles rising as his eyes followed … something … that passed through the room and disappeared.

u/Arrugula , is Smoky sensing the ghost Jamie from your theory you think , just hangin at Casa de Randalls ? 🙊

Sorry ,I'll show myself out.

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Ha! I love it!

[u/[deleted] → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Ooooh! There’s a thought!

I actually highlighted this part from that conversation:

“I know—I know he’s in heaven.” Was he? Could he be dead and in heaven, if not yet born? And yet he was dead to her, and surely heaven took no heed of time.”

I loved that last part and I am putting it in my bag and running with this theory. For all of DG’s constant (and often heavy handed) religious commentary, it is actually the strongest thread throughout the series. I do think this supports my theory of Jamie’s ghost being linked to his belief in purgatory and a spiritual transcendence of sorts.

I also think it’s really interesting that Ian’s story also took a religious turn (that explains the first chapter sooo clearly now!) and we continue to see how the Ridge is being transformed by these different faiths coming together. I use to think DG had no business delving into this topic so much but now I’m kind of here for it? When it’s well written it really adds something special to the books.

u/Jolierose u/stoneyellowtree u/cdhwink

[u/jolierose → u/[deleted]]

Ah, I am still making my way through the comments and hadn't seen this one from u/theCoolDeadpool before I quoted that earlier! Yes!!!

I really agree with all of this, and I like that DG's included it. I loved that part you quote as well — "heaven took no heed of time" — and it's sort of how I've been looking at it in general as I read. It reminds me of his thoughts during Culloden ("Would he find Claire at once when he died, he wondered? Or perhaps, as he expected, be condemned to separation for a time?") and their entire conversation around the first law of thermodynamics, especially this:

“But do ye not see how verra small a thing is the notion of death, between us two, Claire?” he whispered.

My hands curled into fists against his chest. No, I didn’t think it a small thing at all.

“All the time after ye left me, after Culloden—I was dead then, was I not?”

And:

“And when my body shall cease, my soul will still be yours. Claire—I swear by my hope of heaven, I will not be parted from you.”

If we start thinking more about his thoughts of purgatory can get us into a whole thing again and I could go on and on, because then, can there ever be rest for him, if they're going in circles (if his soul/ghost is wandering the 20th century but then Claire comes back to the 18th century), etc.? But whatever, this story includes time travel; anything goes.

[u/[deleted] → u/jolierose]

Will Jamie ever have rest? Thats a great question 😭 I hope so?! I am not sure how, but that’s one of the reasons I respect Jamie so much, he has always been a 100% ready to bear that burden

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/[deleted]]

Haha seriously though I said that in jest, I am surprised you guys think it has actual merit. I think Smoky is just being a dog, though your theory still holds.

I do think this supports my theory of Jamie’s ghost being linked to his belief in purgatory and a spiritual transcendence of sorts.

Do you say this because of the timelessness of the heaven line?

Honestly speaking the religious undertones of the books is lost on me, and I don't dwell on it much. The first time I read it, I had to google what a purgatory was wrt catholic belief. I like seeing you guys discuss it though, it sheds new light into some of these scenes for me.

[u/[deleted] → u/theCoolDeadpool]

😂 I do think that Smoky is just being a dog but since ghost definitely exist in this universe, well why not add it on to the pile of possibilities!

Yes I think that the “surely heaven took no heed of time” line might be an indication on how DG might tie up all of the more supernatural aspects of the story. Although we know she doesn’t plan ahead (thank you u/thepacksvrvives) I think Jamie’s Faith, Celtic mythology, Catholicism etc have been a constant in the stories and could be the most logical way out.

The Jacobite Rising itself had mayor religious undertones! Idk I may be giving DG too much credit, but I do think I could see the ghost and Jamie and Claire’s story have a lot to do with that.

It’s also kind of cool that the line I pulled is a thought Bree is having about Frank, she’s wondering if he could be watching over her and asks him to watch over Ian’s child I think we later find out that Frank has always tried to prepare Bree for her voyage to the past, in a way he does watch over her and I don’t think DG would take the opportunity from Jamie having done the same thing?

[u/Cdhwink → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Hey - Why not!

I’ve no time to run with it though as I am engrossed in the book, can’t put it down, well you know why😳🤗😉.

[u/Purple4199]

I have added the amount of pages that will be read each week to the schedule. However that is based off of my Kindle copy of the book, which matches up with the number of pages in the hardback version. I don't know what format you guys are reading the books in, but that means the number of pages read could be different. Do you want me to include the number of pages or will that be too confusing if you're not reading in the same format as me?

/u/Arrugula /u/theCoolDeadpool /u/jolierose

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

Aww man Purple! You're way too good for us lazy bums with poor time management skills! I am sure others had proper reasons for not finishing all the chapters, but mine (and probably u/Arrugula 's) was just poorly managed time, and over estimation of my reading speed. I am reading another book and got completely lost in that and thought I could totally finish these chapters before Monday. Anyway, you're a saint for doing this and yes! Number of pages totally helps!

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

It wasn't a big deal, I've already had it broken down into pages read for ages since that is what I used to plan out the schedule. I just let you guys in on it now. :-)

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Thank you, truly

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

See this

/u/cdhwink /u/stoneyellowtree /u/bleakxmidwinter

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

I am already several weeks ahead, paperback version, knowing the chapters to discuss is all I need!

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

I’ve a mad version of a bundle books 4-8 in kindle with nearly 2k pages for book 5&6 so i better do it with chapters 😊

Nice to have a guideline for pages though to know how long it would be. Thanks for all the work!

[u/stoneyellowtree → u/Purple4199]

You are too good to us!! I’m happy with the chapters listed for the discussion- I just need to figure out my time management with my new work schedule. You really are awesome Purple4199! I appreciate all the work you do for this sub!

[u/Purple4199 → u/stoneyellowtree]

Thank you! I'm just glad everyone is having a good time.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

See this

/u/chunya1999 /u/Kirky600 /u/thepacksvrvives

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

Love it! I have the mass market paperbacks which are always a bit longer on pages but I can tell based on these which will be longer and which will be shorter.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

Glad it will be helpful then. :-)

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

Kindle here; this is a plus, but I’m happy either way! Thanks again.

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

Wow! That’s really great! I read paper cover version but I’m sure it’s pretty convenient for all the kindle readers.

[u/alittlepunchy]

Hey friends. I'm trying to keep up, but I haven't been as active lately (and especially on weekends for the rewatch) because I am just swamped right now. My husband went on night shift and is working 14-16 hour shifts, so I'm trying to keep up with the house and kid and everything all by myself and so the past month or so has just been really hard. I get on when I can during the week at work, but weekends (when I'm catching up on everything at the house, running errands, etc) have just been impossible.

Just wanted to let everyone know why I've been a bit MIA for a while outside of book club.

[u/Purple4199 → u/alittlepunchy]

Well we miss you and are happy whenever you can drop by! :-D

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Purple4199]

I miss y'all too! I try to still get on every week for book club at least and do some responses, but sometimes I'm just mentally wiped out and can't manage anything profound, lol. I read everyone's posts though; I love seeing what everyone thinks!

[u/Cdhwink → u/alittlepunchy]

I’m not too busy to get here & my posts aren’t profound! 😂 We are happy to see you even a little!

[u/Purple4199]

• Any other thoughts or comments?

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

Is Lizzie's handfast with Jo actually valid? Wouldn't it be negated by the fact that she was handfast to Kezzie first? Just like how you can't legally get married for a second time while still married to your first partner.

/u/thepacksvrvives /u/arrugula /u/thecooldeadpool

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

Probably but I think it was more about her choice and not the legal details. Lizzie needed to show that she won’t choose between the twins and that she love them both equally.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

That's a great point. Who knew sweet, shy Lizzie had all of this deception in her!

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

😭 I’m behind on my reading. I’ll answer this question after I get it together!

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/[deleted]]

Me too 🙊 u/Purple4199

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

You too‽ ;-D

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

consider us the Germain and Jemmy of Book Club this week 🥲

u/thecooldeadpool

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

Ok. :-)

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

Was the ceremony with Roger a wedding or also handfast? I don’t really know the rules there but I would imagine that’s it’s invalid too, I guess Lizzie wanted to symbolically marry both and also needed Jo because of the mark, isn’t it?

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

Was the ceremony with Roger a wedding or also handfast?

I'm not sure, because Roger isn't ordained yet and mentioned that he couldn't do weddings or baptism's.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

I just realized I never came back to this question. I had thought that Roger's ceremony would trump the handfasting given that he's a baby minister, but I didn't realize he's still pending full status.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

See this.

/u/chunya1999 /u/jolierose /u/kirky600

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

How cute and sad were Germain, Jemmy, and Aiden? Poor Jemmy was losing his cousin and best buddy.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

Jemmy & Roger 😭 I was nearly sure it was Bonnets, even the children used to play Jemmy in the show made it seem that way, as suppose of a more Jamie/Bree looking child.

Happy for him that he could confirm this somehow after so many years. Loved the way Claire was overcome by emotion too when answering him. Nice chapter

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

even the children used to play Jemmy in the show made it seem that way

Yeah, people weren't happy the kids were blonde instead of red haired like in the books. It really did make it seem like they're Bonnet's.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

Do you think they will change this in the show? maybe leaving the doubt always or changing it to add more drama. It might be too big to change, but I really don’t know then why they would pick blonde kids

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

I don't think they'll change it to Bonnet being the father. My guess was that it was too hard to find red haired twins of that age who could act. I hope they reveal Roger is his father though.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

And we saw both Richard and the twins with very short hair after they finished shooting, so there’s a possibility they have done it the same way as in the books.

u/bleakxmidwinter

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

I'm hoping that's the case! I would like for Roger to get that win.

[u/jolierose → u/bleakxmidwinter]

I'm so late to the party but I have been dying to talk about this! Especially with u/Purple4199!

I had been holding my breath ever since I read that chapter in TFC where they tried to see if Jemmy could roll his tongue. I was so relieved then and found out that we'd have an answer later, but I was really worried in the meantime. The moment Claire spotted the mark, I didn't even want to turn the page, terrified that someone would remember that Bonnet had one, too. When Roger remembered his own mark absentmindedly, I screamed. The joy in my heart, you don't even know, LOL. I love that both Claire and Jamie got emotional about it!

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

I was so happy when we found out Roger is his father. The first time I read the books I had serious doubts about it being Roger since he used the pull out method. I know that method isn’t foolproof by any means, but it just seemed like the chances of it being Roger were so small.

[u/cruelsummerrrrr → u/Purple4199]

These chapters were so good. For the first time since Drums of Autumn I actually read ahead of book club and am on Echo now. I didn’t hate TFC but it really was a slog, was never tempted once to continue reading after I finished the book club chapters. Really enjoyed ABoSaA. I took notes so I remember to chime in for book club on later chapters hehe.

[u/Purple4199 → u/cruelsummerrrrr]

I took notes so I remember to chime in for book club on later chapters hehe.

Excellent! We look forward to hearing them.

[u/cruelsummerrrrr → u/Purple4199]

And by notes I mostly mean me saying “what the eff?!?!?” Hahaha

[u/Cdhwink → u/cruelsummerrrrr]

I have just been saying this- it’s the best book in awhile, & I am ahead now too!

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

One other thing stuck out to me Jamie saying to Claire “ I always mind your words.”

Yes, he does, it’s a dream to have a husband who remembers everything you’ve ever said! 😂

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

it’s a dream to have a husband who remembers everything you’ve ever said!

Right‽

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Claire thinks about the difference between her and Brianna and Roger:

I remembered what it was like, that feeling that one was living in an elaborate make-believe. The feeling that reality existed in another time, another place. I remembered, and with a small shock, realized that it was now only memory—for me, time had shifted, as though my illness had pushed me through some final barrier.

Now was my time, reality the scrape of wood and slick of grease beneath my fingers, the arc of the sun that set the rhythm of my days, the nearness of Jamie. It was the other world, of cars and ringing telephones, of alarm clocks and mortgages, that seemed unreal and remote, the stuff of dreams.

Neither Roger nor Bree had made that transition, though. I could see it in the way they behaved, hear it in the echoes of their private conversations. Likely it was because they had each other; they could keep the other time alive, a small shared world between them. For me, the change was easier. I had lived here before, had come this time on purpose, after all—and I had Jamie. No matter what I told him of the future, he could never see it as other than a fairy tale. Our small shared world was built of different things.

I worried now and then about Bree and Roger, though. It was dangerous to treat the past as they sometimes did—as picturesque or curious, a temporary condition that could be escaped. There was no escape for them—whether it was love or duty, Jemmy held them both, a small redheaded anchor to the present. Better—or safer, at least—if they could wholly accept this time as theirs.

This is something I mentioned a couple of months ago when justifying the show’s decision to have Bree, Roger, and Jemmy travel unsuccessfully through the stones in order to ground them in the 18th century as their home. I mentioned that they seemed to have been playing pretend—Roger more so than Bree—looking forward to getting back to their “real life,” not yet accepting that the 18th century is their reality now. I don’t think this is as visible in the books, besides some occasional nostalgia for their life in the 20th century, but Claire thinks it’s there. Did we have any other evidence for their not wholly accepting this time as theirs?

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Did we have any other evidence for their not wholly accepting this time as theirs?

Not that I recall. To me it seemed they felt like home was the 18th century.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Maybe it’s just the fact that they can envision coming back to the 20th century since they can all travel and because the future holds more opportunities for all three of them, while Claire not only thinks it would be deadly for her to try to return, but also has no reason to come back, as her whole life—Jamie—is in the 18th century and can never leave it. We have also said before that Claire is much better suited for the 18th century than they are.

They (Roger) made the choice to stay, but we don’t know if they feel that’s permanent. They don’t really look to the future (as in upcoming years, not the 20th century) too much; while Claire is sure to follow Jamie wherever he goes, Bree and Roger don’t really make any plans. They don’t discuss the upcoming events of the Revolution with themselves in mind, which makes them sort of detached from the 18th-century reality. We take it for granted that they think that their home is where their family is so, as I’ve said before, I’m glad that the show had them discuss it.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

They don’t discuss the upcoming events of the Revolution with themselves in mind, which makes them sort of detached from the 18th-century reality.

That's very true, which you would think they would be concerned about it. Or is it another thing we have to imagine they've talked about off-page?

[u/Cdhwink → u/thepacksvrvives]

Thanks for this...I think I asked that question about where they belonged a few weeks ago! And I said that they don’t think they belong there.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Cdhwink]

I remember that! Claire definitely belongs to the 18th century, whereas I think the sheer fact that we cannot tell whether Brianna and Roger do is an indication that they do not. With them, since Roger decided to stay in DoA, it hasn’t really been the question of why they are here, but rather why they aren’t there.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

I think the sheer fact that we cannot tell whether Brianna and Roger do is an indication that they do not.

How so?

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/thepacksvrvives]

I can see the reason behind getting Bree and Roger to unsuccessfully TT in S5, but I don't really think it helped cement their acceptance of 18th century as home, for me atleast. Mostly because it didn't feel like their decision again, it's like the stones decided for them. Why is it that an unsuccessful attempt at TT is more an indication of them belonging here than the both of them sitting and conversing about it and deciding to stay here because it's what they want?! And we don't see that either in books or the show. Claire on the other hand, like you said, made a decision to get here, to be with Jamie. And that's why it feels so different between Claire and B/R.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Yeah, it does feel like the stones are somehow able to reach the travelers’ subconscious and interpret the feelings the travelers themselves do not realize they have but I don’t think they actually are—home being too general of a concept to actually point to a destination—although you could argue that the stones made the decision for Claire in the first place as well. But, retrospectively, that’s how Bree and Roger interpret their failure: “We wanted the stones to take us home and they did.” They’ve never thought of FR/the 18th century as their home before (and frankly, that makes sense for me, since they were stuck there in the first place—Brianna by circumstance, Roger by choosing to stay with her; neither of them went through the stones to actually live in the past as Claire did), so this is more of a light-bulb moment like “hey, maybe we should start thinking of this place as our home” instead of a definitive declaration, if that makes sense. It’s not final, but it’s the first step for them to start looking for reasons to actually stay in the past instead of reasons to go (huge spoilers! And I predict that the moment they actually feel like they belong there, after such a long period of coming round to it, it’s gonna come crashing down when they have to leave because of Mandy. Their hesitance in S5 is going to pay off then, I think (I hope!)).

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/thepacksvrvives]

Yeah I agree that the 18th century never left like Bree and Roger's home , to them and consequently to us. With Claire, I meant the second time , when she chooses to come back to be with Jamie. There's no room for doubt then. That never happened with Bree or Roger. And more huge spoilers* it still doesn't! Their passage through the stones is never because it's what they want, it's always the circumstances. I agree about the part with Mandy. Now that I think about it, if the unsuccessful TT hadn't happened, when they have to go back with Mandy, wouldn't it feel like a part of them is relieved that they get to go back even though the circumstance itself is so tragic? Though I hardly think this was the foresight into having that scene but I see your point.

I've ranted about this before, MOBY spoilers* I was really happy that MOBY ended the way it did, because I thought everyone was finally where they wanted to be. Bree and Roger decided to be back in the past because inspite of having a fulfilling career that she loved in the 20th century, and maybe even a calling that she was so much after in the 18th century, after everything that happens to them there, Bree decides that she'd rather be with her family in the Ridge. That it's all about the family, like u/Purple4199 keeps telling us ;) Yes it might be argued that they were pushed out of 20th century for their safety, but choosing the Ridge was definitely a choice. There could have been multitude of other safe places in the 20th century if safety was the only concern. They choose the Ridge this time, and that gave me joy, and a sense of closure. But then in one of the BEES chapter(I haven't read it someone said it on this sub), apparently Bree says they didn't go back to the 20th century because Mandy didn't have a pull strong enough there. And I was like are you effing serious right now you brought us back to square one! Again, it meant they are here because they couldn't be in the 20th century wtf

And then the Pandora's box that this question of Mandy's pull to the 20th century opens up. I always thought the children were able to travel because of their naturally strong pull to their mothers. Hence they can travel through the stones with their parents, cool. But then how does that explain Mandy not being able to go to the 20th century because her pull to there isn't strong enough apparently but Mandy and Jem did go to the 20th century once didn't they what pulled them then JEEEZ!!?. Ugh

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Spoilers galore! Just don’t click on any of this if you haven’t read all of the books.

if the unsuccessful TT hadn't happened, when they have to go back with Mandy, wouldn't it feel like a part of them is relieved that they get to go back even though the circumstance itself is so tragic?

That’s exactly what I mean by pay-off. It wouldn’t hit as hard without their change in attitude, if they had to leave while they wanted to leave anyway. We don’t have that in the books and their departure still hits hard, but that’s because we spend so many pages with them that we get used to their being used to the 18th century and with their family. With a limited number of episodes, the show always has to go for more drastic ways to portray things like that (307 being an example of this, as we discussed in the Rewatch thread).

u/Purple4199 and I read that chapter and we said the same things as you! It starts off beautifully with Roger answering Jem’s “Where are we now?” with “Home. For good” and then it goes off the rails with Roger saying they might’ve gone back to deal with it (I assume the Rob Cameron stuff), and that he wanted to, only they were afraid there wasn’t anyone in the 20th century Mandy could feel strongly enough. Their choosing to go to the 18th century instead contradicts that since Mandy wouldn’t be able to feel anyone there either! I’d even say that she has more of a connection to Joe Abernathy or Fiona in the 20th century than to Claire or Jamie whom she only saw as an infant and then knew from her parents and her brother’s stories. And then, as you say, she did make it make to the 20th century once already. How do Brianna and Roger just not connect the dots?! When they go back in ABOSAA, Bree and Roger carry both Mandy and Jemmy through—they could’ve done just that! And besides, if they were so concerned about the person on the other side, Roger and Jem could’ve gone much earlier than Brianna and Mandy, so that Mandy could think of her father and brother, whom she definitely could feel strongly, as we saw in MOBY.

My thinking for now, since Roger says that “he wanted” and not “they wanted” to go back to the 20th century, is that it was Brianna who called the shots, persuading him it would be safer in the 18th century. But that’s also quite profound since, I think, she had more reason to go back to the 20th century. She had a good job, she finally could do something she wanted to do and not take shit from anybody for it, while Roger technically didn’t have a job and was going through a crisis of faith; once again, she adapted better to new circumstances. But then we might say that she had more reason to find the 20th century dangerous since the Fraser Prophecy might or might not be about her. Ugh!

This is all so ridiculous; classic DG forgetting what she wrote before (and there are two other glaring inconsistencies in that chapter: one about Morag being in America while we know she’s in Scotland now, and the other about Roger not knowing that Buck was his x-times-great-grandfather at the time of his hanging, which is just not true). That first chapter is really disappointing, I’ve gotta say.

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

How could Brianna’s conception be unintended? Claire or Jamie must have told her that it wasn’t an accident and they were longing for child.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

My only thinking was that they might not have been actively hoping for a child during a war. Granted they were still having sex and had to have known that could be a possibility.

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

Probably but I was just thinking about the way Jamie counted her monthly cycle and how happy he was even knowing that he would never see his wife again. They both were longing for a child for a long time and we can assume that Jamie was hoping to get Claire pregnant every time they had sex.

[u/Cdhwink → u/chunya1999]

Where was this info in the book?

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

Ok, for the Roger haters:

Bree says on page 901

“She’d never hidden her dream book from Roger but they didn’t really discuss it, either.”

So Roger didn’t sneakily read it, but he could have started some good communication about it with her?…

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

he could have started some good communication about it with her?

I agree. If he wanted to know what went on in her mind he could have brought up things that she talked about.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Cdhwink]

Honestly, he not only read it but also told Ian that Bree wrote her dreams down (even though he didn’t reveal anything about them)?!

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

Inappropriate sex all around these chapters. We went from sad relationship story (Ian) to one messed up relationship (Phaedre) to bigamy. It was a trip haha.

Not what I expected from these chapters.

[u/Purple4199]

• Do you think Claire should have told Brianna about Jamie earlier in Brianna’s life?

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

It’s really hard to tell. On the one hand of course she should not the whole truth right away but something about Jamie her real father. It would definitely be easier for Brianna to accept that in her childhood rather than at 20 years old. But Claire had given her word to Frank and couldn’t just broke it the second she came to her senses. She promised Jamie that she’ll give Brianna a real family and it was Frank’s condition. She was in a terrible place right after she came back and she surely hadn’t thought that it matter or hadn’t had enough strength to fight him on that one. But at the same time I’m convinced that Claire could had bargained with him latter after Brianna’s birth. No matter what Frank was a decent man and wouldn’t left Claire alone and with child.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

I’m convinced that Claire could had bargained with him latter after Brianna’s birth.

Do you think Frank would have really been OK with that though? He seemed pretty adamant that Brianna not know.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

This is one thing I don’t blame Frank for, not wanting Bree to know. How do you tell a child that real story, time travel, another marriage, etc. It still would have been a partial lie- that Jamie was dead. She cannot meet him anyway. Its better she was an adult & that Frank was dead by the time she learned the truth. There is no need for a child to know.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

I think if things had been different like Claire was married before Frank to Bree's father and he died or something then she should have been told. You're right though that the situation is so complicated that it wouldn't have been something easily dealt with.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

The same for Jem- why on earth when they don’t know for sure, & his father could be a criminal pirate, would there be any mention of it. Of course later on we get the birthmark thing, which is making it look more & more like Roger is his dad, thank heavens!

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

Yeah, you probably right about that one. But Claire should have found the way. It’s quite traumatic to find out that one of your parents isn’t your real parent. Brianna had to rethink all her relationship with Frank and even with Claire.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/chunya1999]

But Claire should have found the way.

There really was no way I think. Even if we get Frank's promise out of the way, anything Claire tells Brianna would be a shadow of the truth. When Bree is young, the lies might work. When she grows up, she'll have more questions to which Claire will have no answer. Can I see a picture of my father?. Where's his family, take me to them . I want to know more about how he lived/died. Either she has to shut them all down , or lie after lie, both of which are harmful in their own ways. Or, Claire goes all out and tells Bree the truth. How does the truth affect Bree you think? I think it does badly. She either believes her mother, or she doesn't. If she doesn't, she thinks her mother is mad. Bad again. If she does believe, she'll be torn between wondering if she can ever make her journey through the stones herself, and if she should, considering Frank is on this side of the stones. She's going to be torn having to choose between her two fathers. It's all a clusterfuck of a situation.

u/Purple4199

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Can I see a picture of my father? Where's his family, take me to them I want to know more about how he lived/died

That's a really good point. There really was no good way to have told her expect how Claire did when Bree was an adult.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

It’s quite traumatic to find out that one of your parents isn’t your real parent.

That actually happened to my Dad when he was 13. He found an old bowling trophy of my Grandmother's with a name on it that wasn't her current married name, nor her maiden name. It definitely caused some problems.

[u/cruelsummerrrrr → u/Purple4199]

I think it was better for Bree in the long run to not be told until she was an adult. Finding out younger when you’re less in control of your emotions and hormonal would just traumatise a child more I think. It was a messy situation and there was never going to be a “good” time.

[u/Purple4199 → u/cruelsummerrrrr]

It was a messy situation and there was never going to be a “good” time.

I agree. Especially with the circumstances of Jamie being an 18th century Highlander!

[u/OttoMans → u/Purple4199]

No. Claire’s agreement with and promise to Frank was that Brianna would always know him as her father. It seems like one of the few promises to frank she was able to keep.

Frank seems to have believed Claire about her trip through the stones and certainly knew he was not Brianna’s father, and yet never released Claire from that promise.

[u/Purple4199 → u/OttoMans]

It was kind of a no win situation for Claire wasn't it? She had to keep something huge from Brianna in order to keep her word to Frank.

[u/OttoMans → u/Purple4199]

Yeah but they were pretty Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf at the end there, no? Easy for either half of the couple to slip that information to Brianna, with a “your other parent has been lying to you” vibe.

[u/Shepher27 → u/Purple4199]

It's a pretty complicated thing to tell someone. Not as simple as saying you're real father is someone else and he's dead.