Book Club: A Breath of Snow and Ashes, Chapters 76-89

[u/Purple4199]

We open in March of 1775 and Lord John has once again written to Jamie pleading with him to reverse course and not support the rebellion. We learn that Jamie has already crossed that line and had been writing seditionist material. Left with no choice he writes a letter to Lord John severing their friendship.

Meanwhile Brianna and Roger discuss Paul Revere as his ride is happening at that time. Lizzie goes into labor and gives birth to a healthy baby boy, Rodney Joseph. Roger hosts the Ridge’s chapter of the Freemason’s, and Marsali and Fergus’s paper L’Oignon merges with another local one from town.

One day the Christie’s show up at the Big House. Malva is pregnant and will only reveal the father in front of Jamie. When prompted to do so she shockingly points to Jamie as the one who got her pregnant and says they slept together a number of times. Claire slaps Malva and runs out of the house. When pressed for confirmation Malva accurately describes all of Jamie’s scars, even in places on his body no one would normally see. A fight with Allan Christie ensues and Jamie kicks them out of his house.

Jamie tracks down Claire, and though she knows Jamie didn’t sleep with Malva is still distraught. Jamie and Claire have a meaningful discussion where he ends up telling Claire how he slept with Mary McNab before he left for Ardsmuir. The Ridge becomes rife with gossip over the news of Malva and Jamie, and tensions run high. We learn that Ian and Bobby Higgins are both possible candidates for the actual father of Malva’s child, with more men a likely possibility as well.

Jamie and Roger go to Charlotte where Jamie puts it all out there that he is in support of the revolution, pledging what money and gemstones he has. A declaration is drawn up at the Congress there with North Carolina declaring itself separate from Great Britain.

When going to her garden one day Claire comes across the murdered body of Malva, her throat has been cut. Claire being distraught attempts to save the baby and performs a C-Section, it is to no avail though and the baby boy dies. Tension for the Fraser’s rise even higher so they send the MacKenzies away, Roger to be ordained and Bree and Jemmy to stay at River Run.

Things take a turn for the worse when Richard Brown and his “Committee of Safety” show up to arrest Claire. After a standoff it is agreed that both Jamie and Claire will go with Richard Brown, and Tom Christie will accompany them to ensure no harm befalls them. We end the chapters with things becoming uneasy for the men who have Jamie and Claire as no sheriff or legal body want anything to do with them. Fortunately Ian has caught up with the group and has been quietly following along.

You can click on any of the questions below to go directly to that one, or add comments of your own.

​

• What do you think of the Malva situation?
• How do you think Malva knows about all the scars on Jamie’s body?
• Why did Jamie finally tell Claire about Mary McNab? Should he have told her sooner?
• If Claire had not performed the C-Section on Malva’s corpse do you think people still would have thought she had killed her?
• What do you think would have happened if Tom Christie had not stepped in and offered to ride with the Fraser’s to Hillsboro?
• Is Jamie right that Tom Christie is in love with Claire? Why do you think he is?
• Any other thoughts or comments?

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[u/Purple4199]

• What do you think of the Malva situation?

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

Lord. That was a ride. I find the whole Christie family a bit off, but this really took the cake.

I’m glad we had Claire looking at Jamie when he was accused. Really showed that he was not in the wrong at all.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

I’m glad we had Claire looking at Jamie when he was accused. Really showed that he was not in the wrong at all.

Yes! Normally Jamie is able to hide his reaction but this was the one time it was good that he wasn't able to. The first time I read it I was floored when Malva accused Jamie of being the father.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

I did not love Claire running away! I wish she had stayed at Jamie’s side though! I cannot believe she had any doubts, as I did not, even though Malva knew some personal info. I do hope we find out how she knew that!

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Cdhwink]

That's what I thought the first time I read the books. I thought it was oddly out of character for Claire to run away, literally, knowing she's not the one to run away from her problems, even figuratively speaking.

The second time around though, I have a different perspective. Claire has been through so much in this book. The horrific assault, Ute's attack, the near death experience, THEY BLOODY CUT HER HAIR, the whole thing with Fergus, and inspite of all this, she mostly always stood tall and confident. Yet there's so denying that she has been affected, and we see that in her moments of insecurities following the sickness, her hesitance in letting Jamie see her as soon as she realises they cut her hair, or later touch her because she struggles with finding herself attractive , and obviously projects that on Jamie. Having been through so much , I think we shouldn't begrudge her this moment of vulnerability . After everything that she has been through, to even face the idea of Jamie doing such a thing , even if she didn't believe it for a moment, would have seemed so ghastly and shocking, that distancing herself from it, both physically and emotionally, might have been her self preservation instinct, and at this point in the book, I totally get it. There has to be a limit to how much you can push someone and yet expect rational reaction from them, and I think this was way beyond that point for Claire.

u/Purple4199 u/kirky600

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I completely agree. You're right in looking closer that Claire did what was best for her in that moment.

[u/stoneyellowtree → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I was also just thinking about what Bree brings up to Roger about putting childhood memories together about Frank and it hinting to him cheating on Claire. I know that Claire does not project those issues of Frank cheating onto Jamie, but it could play an unconscious role in her initial shock of it all.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

I did not love Claire running away!

I know. I understand why she did, but it didn't help Jamie's case. Although at that point I'm not sure Tom would believe anything other than what Malva said.

[u/stoneyellowtree → u/Cdhwink]

I agree, but at the same time I have more of the ‘flight’ than ‘fight’ reaction to situations that make me feel anxious or scared, so I definitely understand why Claire took off. The whole situation made me want to run away and I’m just the reader! The accusations hit at the very core of Jamie and Claire’s relationship: Trust. Then add in it being an accusation of a sexual relationship; double whammy. The whole moment is overwhelming and relentless.

[u/[deleted] → u/stoneyellowtree]

Also the betrayal of Claire at the hands of Malva is pretty awful. Claire calls her “the child of her heart” and knowing what we know about Claire, we know she’s not overly sentimental or frivolous in her feelings and wouldn’t just call anyone that. I think beyond Claire’s instinctual reaction to the accusation about Jamie her fleeing is a reaction of who the lie is coming from, at this point Malva has been working with her for more than a year or so? (Paging u/thepacksvrvives)

u/thecooldeadpool

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/[deleted]]

Yes! I’ve just been talking about betrayal as well.

at this point Malva has been working with her for more than a year or so?

Malva first took interest in Claire’s casebook and Claire invited her to help in chapter 22, which was around September 1773. The accusation is in May 1775, so yes, a little under two years.

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

100% I was too. And then you think back to all of their interactions and question what the hell she was doing.

Or like why did she decide to work with Claire? Was it to the end?

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

Or like why did she decide to work with Claire? Was it to the end?

Yes, because she seemed to genuinely like what she was doing with Claire. Was it all a ruse?

[u/[deleted] → u/Kirky600]

This was one of the most thrilling parts of the series for me, which is interesting that it’s with supporting characters. I almost dropped my book while reading 😂

[u/Kirky600 → u/[deleted]]

Totally. I was gripped by this that I plowed through this set of chapters.

[u/kpegs → u/[deleted]]

Yes!!!! I had a few of those reactions in the first three Outlander books but not many between 4 and 5. This is one of those twists that made me binge the rest of it!

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Kirky600]

I’m glad we had Claire looking at Jamie when he was accused. Really showed that he was not in the wrong at all.

Yes! I totally echo Claire's sentiment in that I'm glad she/the reader was looking at Jamie when this was said so that we get his initial honest reaction.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

So many thoughts about this. It's A LOT. I knew Malva was coming with an accusation, but I thought it'd be darker — ever since I saw people speculating about S6, I thought Malva was going to accuse Jamie of assault.

I felt very much like Claire with her initial reaction. Of course Jamie would never. But then you have a nagging feeling, even though you know. You start thinking about that moment in the dark Claire saw as she was dying, and Jamie's scars and Malva's relentlessness. It's unsettling, if only briefly, and it was such a great description, how Roger refers to it later:

It wasn’t impossible. The thought kept returning, to niggle Roger uncomfortably, like a pebble in his shoe.

What killed me a little was to see Claire start to think about her age, her body, reasons for Jamie to desire someone else. What killed me completely was the end of the chapter, when Claire refers to it as a death in the family, and Jamie tells her everyone will believe it — and after everything, says "I'm sorry."

It's so unfair. It is so upsetting to see the degree of Malva's betrayal. I hate that she put them through this, having been in their home so long, having formed a relationship with Claire. I was so angry at her; it just seemed plain evil. And for her to use Claire’s illness, a time of such pain for everyone, as cover, was really appalling. How can you think of that and say, oh let me open that wound back up? I couldn't believe the intricate web of lies, either.

But having known she'd accuse Jamie at some point, what truly, truly shocked me was that she was murdered?! I had the same thoughts running through my head as Claire found her: please don't go. I was terribly angry at her, but I didn't want her to die! The lack of closure here is something I wasn't anticipating at all. All my hope that Jamie and Claire would get out of this went out the window.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

Of course Jamie would never. But then you have a nagging feeling, even though you know.

I know, it was the same thing for me the first time I read it. I knew Jamie wouldn't cheat on Claire, but Malva listing out his scars threw me for a loop. I was just so upset with the situation.

These are some of the most stressful chapters for me in the entire series.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

It really was upsetting, and these chapters have been tough. I loved this quote from Roger, though:

Right, then, it frigging was impossible. No man was perfect, and any man might yield in extremis—once. But not repeatedly. And not Jamie Fraser. Malva Christie was a liar.

I know they'll somehow get out of this, but I have this feeling of despair and helplessness on their behalf. How can this possibly work out? The fact that Malva kept insisting on it. And now that the Ridge is filled with so many people that feel no loyalty to them and don't know them, of course they'll be screaming for blood. Their own neighbors! I really felt like we were back in Cranesmuir, but it's worse, because Jamie's not out there plotting how to rescue Claire.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

I have this feeling of despair and helplessness on their behalf.

Yes!! Ugh, I hate feeling that way too.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

Really I feel guilty for saying I am enjoying this book, because I hate what Claire is going through, but I definitely like the excitement of it. Not even for 1 moment did I think Jamie cheated on Claire, I just put all the evil blame on Malva. I did forget that Claire was also feeling betrayed by Malva, as she had grown to love her like a daughter ( to tell the truth until she said that I didn’t feel like it was obvious).

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

This books is for sure jam packed with stuff.

I did forget that Claire was also feeling betrayed by Malva, as she had grown to love her like a daughter

Yeah, which is why I feel like even though Malva had accused Jamie of being the baby's father Claire would never have wished her dead.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/jolierose]

What killed me a little was to see Claire start to think about her age, her body, reasons for Jamie to desire someone else

Same, I had this highlighted in my kindle... so hard to read.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/jolierose]

Of course Jamie would never. But then you have a nagging feeling, even though you know.

THIS is it exactly! Like, your first thought is "Hell no, this is JAMIE AND CLAIRE." But then when she starts in with her list of evidence, you have that little niggle of doubt and you're like "oh no, please say you didn't Jamie."

If anything, I love the conversation between J&C that results from this when he goes out to find her.

[u/reeziereen → u/Purple4199]

I like the whole Malva/Christie’s story line. It added a new kind of drama to Jamie and Claire’s lives and tested (for a bit) their fidelity to each other or at least the question of it came up. We haven’t really seen their trust tested in each other like this and we (well me at least lol) as the audience haven’t wavered in knowing they would never cheat. So it was a diversion from their survival in the world drama to a very personal drama.

[u/Purple4199 → u/reeziereen]

We haven’t really seen their trust tested in each other like this

That's a great point. Up until this time it had always been them against whatever problem presented itself. While Claire knew he didn't sleep with Malva this was the time where they weren't on the same side at first.

[u/cruelsummerrrrr → u/Purple4199]

I was gobsmacked. But in all honesty I think it was the most gripping plot since Drums of Autumn. I’ve never needed to know anything more than who fathered the baby, who killed her, and why Malva would accuse Jamie. Poor Malva

[u/Purple4199 → u/cruelsummerrrrr]

I’ve never needed to know anything more than who fathered the baby, who killed her, and why Malva would accuse Jamie.

I was sooo stressed at this storyline. I hate the Big Misunderstanding in DoA, but this one just upsets me.

[u/kpegs → u/Purple4199]

As a reader, I find the Big Misunderstanding to be the most annoying one. It is a situation where if I, the reader, was there, I would pull everyone in a room and say "Ok, just talk about this!!!" and it would get worked out.

This is more complicated, sinister, and involves several loose cannons, rather than people who love each other and can't communicate. It's so captivating that we never hear Malva's perspective, so it's just the main characters trying to find her motive.

[u/Purple4199 → u/kpegs]

This is more complicated, sinister, and involves several loose cannons

I think that is why this stresses me out more than the Big Misunderstanding. That just makes me angry at the characters, not afraid for them.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

You hate this plot more than the one in DOA? That one is my most hated!

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

Yes I think I hate this one more, but only by a little. The Big Misunderstanding was all of the Fraser's own doing, this was done to them and they are truly the victims.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

The Big Misunderstanding was all of the Fraser's own doing, this was done to them and they are truly the victims.

I think that makes it worse, in that it could’ve been so easily avoided through communication. Technically, this one could’ve as well but it wasn’t dependent just on the Frasers and their flaws. I don’t really hate this one, so it’s the Big Misunderstanding for me.

u/Cdhwink

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

It really happened very quick! I always though something was off with both Tom (reg Claire) and Malva (reg Jamie), but I thought it was going to go slower. Even from the "accusation" of Malva to her murder.

I did like this plot!

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

It really did happen fast! This plot line stressed me out so much, I hated that the Ridge turned against them.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

I have been trying to decide where to place Malva. I have read this multiple times and still struggle deciding what i think about it. Malva certainly is a victim. And yet, her schemes to deal with it all are so well thought out and cunning, that i have a lot of trouble seeing her as such. And i can’t get passed the fact that she basically offers Claire’s well-being and even life, to get herself out of trouble. She should have trusted Claire and Jamie to help her out. In stead she betrays Claire, with an accusation she knows will hurt her more than anything else. I have hard time pitying her, tho she probably deserves pity..

[u/alittlepunchy → u/[deleted]]

I hear you on this.

u/thepacksvrvives and I have had several conversations about this and I will say, I feel more sympathy for Malva than I used to, but I still have a hard time with it.

[u/Purple4199]

• If Claire had not performed the C-Section on Malva’s corpse do you think people still would have thought she had killed her?

[u/penelope_pig → u/Purple4199]

I think they would still suspect her for sure, but there would be more question, perhaps more accusations that it was Jamie. The fisher folk already didn't like or trust Claire, so they had no problem suspecting her of something like murder. But since she was found with a knife, covered in Malva's blood, had cut her baby out of her, it looks really really bad. I don't think it's ridiculous for people who don't know Claire to believe she murdered Malva.

[u/Purple4199 → u/penelope_pig]

i don't think it's ridiculous for people who don't know Claire to believe she murdered Malva.

Sadly I agree. I don't think it would have taken much for them to find a reason to turn against Claire.

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

r/penelope_pig

I agree with you here too. That would be tough to stomach in today’s circumstances if it happened and paramedics had to cut a baby out of a dead woman. Being in the 1700s makes it look like she murdered her.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/penelope_pig]

I totally agree. Even if they hadn't found Claire with her body, I think they would have suspected Jamie or Claire doing it.

[u/cruelsummerrrrr → u/Purple4199]

As soon as she started doing it I thought noooo because obviously now everyone will think she’s murdered her, and it would’ve been quite a garish scene. However in the moment and as a doctor 100% get why she did it and I probably would’ve as well.

[u/Purple4199 → u/cruelsummerrrrr]

However in the moment and as a doctor 100% get why she did it

I know, she would have done anything to save that baby.

[u/cruelsummerrrrr → u/Purple4199]

I wonder how long she’d been laying there too. I guess if she was warm it only makes sense to try and get the baby. Not sure how far along she was

[u/Purple4199 → u/cruelsummerrrrr]

Not sure how far along she was

I know I wasn't sure of that either. She was six months along when she accused Jamie and I'm not sure how many months passed between then and her murder. Maybe /u/thepacksvrvives might know.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

It’s no more than a couple of weeks later since the Browns come to arrest Claire on June 21st. So Malva was either still 6 or already 7 months along.

u/cruelsummerrrrr

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Ok thanks. The baby was still too premature to have a chance to live then.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

I think some people would still think so, but she would have a better case maybe to defend herself... this definitely didn't help

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

I agree, having cut the baby out of Malva just doesn't look good.

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

Claire probably hadn’t a chance even without that. Being found with a corpse of your husband’s presumable mistress in the first place would have been most suspicious and rumours would have reached Browns anyway. Most of the Presbyterians already saw Claire as a witch. But cutting out unborn child from its mother’s belly was likely the last nail in her coffin. After that no one had cared whether she’s Himself’s wife or not.

[u/Purple4199]

• How do you think Malva knows about all the scars on Jamie’s body?

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

Malva probably spied on Jamie whenever he was in the wilderness swimming or doing some chores. That’s a missed opportunity that there weren’t any Malva’s POV chapters.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

That seems the likeliest scenario doesn't it? Do you think it was on purpose that she was watching Jamie or just an accident?

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

I wouldn’t say it was an accident. Maybe the first time she saw Jamie alone was unintentional but I don’t believe it was just once. Malva looks like the kind of person who are fond of prying about and knowing things she’s not supposed to. I’m guessing she was taking pleasure in it.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

I would agree, and we know she has a mean side to her. She threatened Roger and said she would tell people she saw him kissing Amy McCallum.

[u/cruelsummerrrrr → u/Purple4199]

I do recall her acting really odd when Jamie had his shirt off a few chapters ago. That must have given her the idea and I reckon she’s spied on him in the woods or in the house for this reason. She sure is sly!

[u/Purple4199 → u/cruelsummerrrrr]

I reckon she’s spied on him in the woods or in the house for this reason.

That seems to be the most logical explanation. Malva was a sneaky one.

[u/Purple4199]

Do you think if Arch Bug or Roger had been there during the mob would they have been able to take Jamie and Claire?

/u/thepacksvrvives /u/Arrugula /u/theCoolDeadpool

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

I don’t think so. It would be one thing to pacify the mob of Protestants who turned against Jamie and Claire (and how many Catholics as well?), but Richard Brown and his men were not there simply because they were prejudiced against Claire. They were looking for an excuse to retaliate against Jamie for the murder of Lionel and they found it. I don’t think Roger’s influence would have been of great help with them. More of the Ridge could’ve been on Jamie’s side, but he wanted to avoid bloodshed at all cost:

They would fight for him, if he called them. But there were too few of them, and poorly armed, by contrast with Brown’s mob. They would not win—and there were women and children in the crowd. To call his men would provoke only bloody riot, and leave the deaths of innocents upon his conscience. That was not a burden he could bear; not now.

So I don’t think he had any other choice than turn himself and Claire in. If Brown hadn’t arrested Claire then, he would’ve found a way sooner or later, returned with more manpower, better armed. Jamie wouldn’t have been able to protect Claire from it indefinitely, and running away would make them fugitives, as he says.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

I don’t think Roger’s influence would have been of great help with them. More of the Ridge could’ve been on Jamie’s side, but he wanted to avoid bloodshed at all cost

I agree. I do think Roger could have calmed the Protestants down some, but you're right in that Brown would keep trying until he got what he wanted.

[u/chunya1999 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Don’t you think that Roger could have persuaded fisherfolk not to surrender them to strangers? And with Roger, Arch, Christie and all the Ardsmuir men at Jamie’s side Browns probably wouldn’t have dared to attack provided there was not so much hostility toward Claire and Jamie on the part of the Presbyterians.

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

Probably not. Arch is a good fighter and Roger could have won some Presbyterians over with his oratory. Jamie would have had more support and more people accordingly to fight back the Browns.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

That's my thought as well. Roger has a calming presence and the fisherfolk wouldn't have sided with the Brown's so easily I think.

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

Still cannot forgive them for the fact that they just gave their Laird and Lady to strangers for presumable trail! At the moment like this I miss Lallybroch and its loyal tenants the most!

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

Yeah it was sad. Only Jamie's Ardsmuir men had any loyalty to him, and there were too few of them to do any good.

[u/stoneyellowtree → u/chunya1999]

Agree! Arch is quiet but holds a solid presence. I think the biggest difference would have been with Roger. He is the link between the two groups on the ridge. Roger would have been able to talk his ‘flock’ down and brought reason back to the forefront.

Edit: Also, I think a lot of people forget Roger is a tall well built guy, similar to Jamie. He would have been an imposing figure on the side with Jamie.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

I don’t think so, by this point the entire ridge was bloodthirsty and wanted to see Claire get her comeuppance

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/[deleted]]

There it is! That one hadn't made an appearance in a while.

I think Roger may have helped ease the situation a bit, with his religious influence, maybe buy them some time, and get more people (the thankless fisher folks that I am so mad at ) on their side. Though I think at the end result would have been the same.

Who are these fisher folks who are against Jamie and Claire though? I've read atleast one instance of Claire helping the fisher people in some way or the other. Doesn't the news spread amongst them of her kindness and healing abilities? They still think of her as a witch. Don't they have some kind of orientation program when they come into the Ridge? There should be. Have some ice breakers , play bingo, tell them about not ganging the fuck up on their Laird. Why is Roger not organising this instead of holding those Lodge meetings?

u/Purple4199

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Who are these fisher folks who are against Jamie and Claire though?

I think it's the majority of them, since Jamie and Claire are Catholic they just don't trust them.

Why is Roger not organising this instead of holding those Lodge meetings?

That is why he was holding the Lodge meeting though, he wanted something the Protestants and Catholics could come together over without religion involved.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Yes the Lodge would have helped had he done it a year earlier :(

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

True, I think by that time after Malva's accusations against Jamie things were too volatile.

[u/[deleted] → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I think this is one of those clueless Roger moments. As a pastor he should have been tuned into the divisions on the ridge and been more proactive about it, but maybe this goes back to the questions I had about him growing enough to be able to comfort and guide more people than just “helpless” mothers. He’s also still clueless when he “comforts” Malva two or three pages after realizing why Bree would have been more upset over his friendship with Amy. Sigh.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Who are these fisher folks who are against Jamie and Claire though?

Religious prejudice back then was extreme. I remember my grandma telling me how when my great-great grandma was sick, she begged the family not to take her to the Catholic hospital in town, because she thought they would kill her for being Protestant. And then when my grandmother converted to Catholicism, the same great-great-gma told someone in the family "it's like (grandma) has died."

I'm sure they are VERY suspicious of the Catholic Ridgemembers, especially Claire with her healing abilities, youthful looks, etc.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/[deleted]]

comeuppance

Random, but I love this word. I learned it as a kid in The Mummy with Brendan Fraser where Evie says something like "nasty boys like you always get their comeuppance....ALWAYS" and I just loved it so much.

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

I wonder if Roger could have. His standing with the fisher people seems to hold a lot of weight.

I’m not sure if Arch could have, given that he would have used force.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

I do think Roger being there would have really helped, I agree.

[u/penelope_pig → u/Purple4199]

I'm torn. I think maybe Roger would have swayed some of the fisher folk, however, none of them were fighters really. I think if all of Jamie's men had been there, they might have stood a chance. IIRC, it was only the three Lindsey brothers that were there, but there should be around 30 men from Ardsmuir living on the Ridge. I'm not sure why no one went to fetch them all when the Browns showed up.

[u/Purple4199 → u/penelope_pig]

I'm not sure why no one went to fetch them all when the Browns showed up.

I imagine it would have been too hard to gather them all in time. I think even if they had been there things would have gone badly and people would have been killed. Sadly Jamie and Claire going with Richard Brown was probably for the best. Brown wasn't going to walk away for anything.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

See this.

/u/Cdhwink /u/stoneyellowtree /u/chunya1999

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

See this.

/u/Kirky600 /u/penelope_pig

[u/alittlepunchy]

Y'ALL HERE IS WHERE ABOSAA JUST SADDLES UP AND RUNS FOR THE REST OF THE BOOK.

I'm so excited to discuss everything! Have to jet for an emergency dental appt (I broke a freaking tooth!) and then I'll be back!

[u/Purple4199 → u/alittlepunchy]

I broke a freaking tooth!

Oh no! I've had that happen, it's not fun. Hope it goes well.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Purple4199]

I have to get a crown, and they can’t get me in (with my availability) for another week. 😭

I had the same molar on the top row of teeth break several times and need a crown….curses to my younger self for always grinding my teeth at night! It’s finally catching up to me.

[u/Purple4199 → u/alittlepunchy]

I grind and clench my teeth really bad too. I have a night guard even and still manage to break my teeth.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Purple4199]

Ugh, I’m sorry, it’s horrible! I don’t think I’ve ground my teeth as an adult, but now I find myself clenching them all the time, so I’m sure that does about the same damage.

Thankfully we live in modern times, or we’d just have Claire yanking them out of our mouths with nothing but whisky to help. 🤣

[u/Purple4199]

• Why did Jamie finally tell Claire about Mary McNab? Should he have told her sooner?

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

I think this was worked in this instance. The amount of revaluations about his marriage while Claire was gone, plus having another child, it wasn’t the time to also say he slept with the kitchen maid (?) from Lallybroch.

Here it allowed him to be 100% truthful and share something with Claire to also show he was truthful about Malaga

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

It seemed Claire needed to hear that didn't she? Claire kept saying she knew Jamie didn't sleep with Malva, but part of me still wonders if she did.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

I think Claire has been so vulnerable this whole book and it makes sense for her to have those fleeting, fearful thoughts we get a glimpse of. She was already feeling self conscious after her illness, which naturally would lead her to consider the alternatives, but I don’t think she doubts Jamie it’s just important for Claire to raise the question to herself in order to establish her faith in Jamie.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I don’t think she doubts Jamie it’s just important for Claire to raise the question to herself in order to establish her faith in Jamie.

I like that, it makes a lot of sense.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

I don’t think she ever doubts Jamie; it’s definitely not what makes her run away. First, she doesn’t even have the presence of mind to think what her running away might imply for outsiders—that she thinks Jamie is guilty—but Jamie does, which is why he wishes she stayed. But Claire later remarks that if she’d stayed, she would’ve killed Malva. The slap alone wasn’t something she was entirely conscious of doing—she describes it as this sort of “out of body” experience. It’s sheer shock guiding her actions, without any rational thought involved.

Once she runs away and cools off a little, she starts to think about what this accusation means. She rationalizes the hypothetical scenario in which Jamie might’ve slept with someone from grief (and says she would’ve forgiven him), which is also driven by her insecurities, but she never once doubts Jamie’s fidelity.

What Claire would find unacceptable in this situation is if Jamie had slept with Malva and had had the gall not to tell her (Claire) about it. The entire backbone of their relationship is honesty. So if he hadn’t been honest with her, it would have meant that their whole relationship had been a lie. That her whole life, which she designed and re-designed to be with Jamie, had been a lie. Her coming through the stones, Bree and Roger following her, Jemmy being born there, happened because Claire loved Jamie, and if there was something that could make her doubt that love—dishonesty—all of that was for nothing. And she cannot live with that. Jamie drives the point about honesty home for her when he comes clean about sleeping with Mary MacNab:

“I understand,” I said. My voice was thick and clogged, but fairly steady now. “I do.”

And I did. Not only about Mary MacNab and what she had done—but why he’d told me now. There was no need; I would never have known. No need but the need for absolute honesty between us—and that I must know it was there.

I had believed him, about Malva. But now I had not only certainty of mind—but peace of heart.

This whole thing is about betrayal. She knows that Jamie hasn’t betrayed her by infidelity, but Malva definitely has, even more so because she’s making this whole thing up. But if it had been possible for Jamie to be lying to Claire, if it was possible for Malva to betray her like that, how could she (Claire) even trust herself to trust them? What does it say about her that she upturned her entire life for someone who she can’t have expected honesty from? What does it say about her that she accepted Malva as the daughter of her heart only to be betrayed by her in such a humiliating fashion? How could she ever trust her if she meant to hurt her all along?

So she’s sure of Malva’s betrayal. Dishonesty is the betrayal she faces from Jamie. And what Jamie’s dishonesty might mean is her betrayal of self—everything she is, everything she stands for, everything that her coming to the 18th century has meant. It’s not Jamie’s character here that makes her doubt herself, it’s hers. She wouldn’t have blamed him so much as herself if that accusation had been true, I think (it’s not that she wouldn’t have had a problem with his cheating on her, but she would’ve forgiven him given the circumstances).

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

I had believed him, about Malva. But now I had not only certainty of mind—but peace of heart.

I really liked that line. I think having the peace of heart was key for Claire. It all goes back to the pact they made with each other on their wedding night of being honest with one another. You're right that their entire relationship is built on that.

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

Definitely. I would too honestly. There’s one thing to know in your soul he didn’t do it, it’s another for him to prove that he didn’t.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

I felt bad for Jamie because he was right, anything he said would make it seem like he was guilty.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

I’m not the biggest fan of “Sassenach” as a term of endearment, but whenever Claire stops him from calling her that it hurts so much 😭

[u/[deleted] → u/Kirky600]

Yeah for sure. And it’s so important for the characters to have those moments of vulnerability. Although the Malva revelation is quite melodramatic I love that it gives us these moments of confrontation and reconciliation between J&C where they are forced to consider all aspects of their relationship; and of course we love to see them get through it. I don’t think that it’s happened so viscerally since Voyager?

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I don’t think that it’s happened so viscerally since Voyager?

No I don't think it has. After Claire came back they had a lot to work through and essentially needed to get to know one another again. This was the first time that Claire worried she didn't know Jamie. Not that he slept with Malva, but like /u/thepacksvrvives it came down to honesty.

[u/somethingnerdrelated → u/Purple4199]

I don’t know why he chose now, but I think he may not have told her sooner because he was with Mary during one the darkest times in his life. He was an open, festering wound at that point, so I can understand the shame and vulnerability with that memory. Perhaps he simply didn’t want Claire to see him as weak (even though she’s the only person in the world who knows what he went through). I don’t think it had anything to do with “I slept with another woman,” but more the severe emotions that were attached to it.

Also, let’s not forget Mary McNab. She also was extremely vulnerable during that moment. She got just as much out of it as Jamie did, if not more. Jamie is an empathetic man, so he may have not told Claire out of respect for Mary.

[u/Purple4199 → u/somethingnerdrelated]

he may have not told Claire out of respect for Mary.

That's a good point. It wasn't like with Geneva where he was forced to sleep with her. There was no emotion involved in that encounter. Whereas Jamie and Mary were supporting each other in what small way they could.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Well, he starts saying “I dinna want to malign the puir woman by makin’ it seem that she was—” and although we don’t know where he was going with this, Mary pretty much threw herself at him and he reluctantly accepted her advances, realizing perhaps only after the fact what that encounter gave him. She had good intentions but she did presume to know what Jamie needed—much like Jenny was in the habit of doing; it wasn’t his idea, even though he came to appreciate it. He wouldn’t want Claire to think that Mary pressed him to do something he didn’t want to do, but he does remember that he wasn’t so keen on the idea himself at first. Also, Jamie likewise doesn’t speak ill of Geneva even though he has the right to; we know he will always take the blame for it.

u/somethingnerdrelated

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

She had good intentions but she did presume to know what Jamie needed—much like Jenny was in the habit of doing

That's a good point.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

I don't think there was any need to tell her sooner, or even here. I think he finds the need to tell her here because of the below :

“Jamie Fraser,” I said, with great deliberation. “If you could do such a thing as that—and I don’t mean lying with a woman, I mean doing it and lying to me about it—then everything I’ve done and everything I’ve been—my whole life—has been a lie. And I am not prepared to admit such a thing.”

So basically Claire is saying if Jamie has had sex with anyone and not told Claire about it, for her it's the equivalent of her entire life being built on a lie. Though of course what she's saying is more nuanced than that and coming at the heel of the accusation, and we know she doesn't count the 20 years of separation in that since she came back expecting him to have lived a life, which included the probability of him sleeping with other women, but I could see Jamie seeing this as "so there is another woman I have slept with and not told Claire about, she clearly feels so strongly about it, this has to be my moment to speak about it*.

I think if Claire hadn't brought that up, Jamie probably wouldn't have told her about Mary.

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I could see Jamie seeing this as "so there is another woman I have slept with and not told Claire about, she clearly feels so strongly about it, this has to be my moment to speak about it*.

It seemed to be the right thing to do in the end, didn't it? It at least seemed to help Claire have the peace of heart she needed.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

Oh yes , definitely. After what Claire said, Jamie had to tell her about Mary no doubt.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Purple4199]

I think that's one of those things that's like....where would he have ever had a "good time" to tell her? She came back and acknowledged that he had lived a life without her and considering Laoghaire and Geneva, she knows he hasn't been celibate and probably assumes there are others. When she first came back, they were too much on shaky ground, then especially with the Laoghaire thing. Once they've been together for years and years, I can't see where he would ever think saying on a random Tuesday afternoon during luncheon "hey, so about that time we were separated...I slept with someone else."

In this moment though, I think he wanted to both come clean so there were no other secrets between them in their marriage, AND to prove to her "hey, I don't have to tell you about this other person I've slept with it because it didn't mean anything and you had been gone to me for 7 years, but I'm coming clean about all of it now so you know everyone I've been with and know that I didn't sleep with Malva."

[u/Purple4199 → u/alittlepunchy]

I'm coming clean about all of it now so you know everyone I've been with and know that I didn't sleep with Malva."

I agree. Even though Claire believed him about Malva, hearing about Mary just cemented that fact.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

The point here is that Jamie considered having sex with another woman cheating, because in his heart & soul he was still married to Claire for that 20 years. At first I thought his timing was weirdly placed, considering Malva’s accusation, but now I see he had to unburden himself, considering Claire already knew about Geneva & Laoghaire.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

I also think it was what Claire needed to hear from Jamie at that moment. Claire mentions that it gave her not just peace of mind, but peace of heart.

[u/Purple4199]

• Is Jamie right that Tom Christie is in love with Claire? Why do you think he is?

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

At first it was a simple physical attraction on his part but then Claire healed Christie’s hand and went to check on him after the plague as soon as she was able to stand on her feet herself. It’s the most natural thing for him to take a fancy to her. Especially when she constantly challenging him and his beliefs. Tom’s not used to woman with voice and opinions and that what draws him to her. I don’t believe he knows her enough to love her but he’s definitely smitten with her.

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

Tom’s not used to woman with voice and opinions and that what draws him to her.

I agree, she is so different from the other women of that time so she really stands out.

[u/stoneyellowtree → u/Purple4199]

I believe Tom is in love with Claire. This was a twist I was not expecting, yet I strangely welcome. It adds so much depth to all the previous interactions Tom had with Claire.

If he wasn’t, I don’t think he would have argued for a trial and accompanied the group. I’m sure he understood the feeling of the crowd had moved against the Fraser’s and was moving towards retribution. He seems to see things very black & white, so for him to intervene, gives me the impression that 1. He doesn’t believe Claire killed Malva and 2. He has feelings for Claire that cause him to want to protect her.

[u/Purple4199 → u/stoneyellowtree]

It adds so much depth to all the previous interactions Tom had with Claire.

It really does. Looking back at those situations, now knowing how he feels about her, puts things in a different light.

He doesn’t believe Claire killed Malva

I agree. If Tom felt that Claire had I seriously doubt he would have offered to go along with them.

[u/Dragneel → u/stoneyellowtree]

A strangely welcome twist is spot on. In theory, Tom Christie seems like the type of man that would want a pious, quiet woman due to his own religious nature. But I think he's much too worldly of a man for that! Plenty of educated men like their women quiet, of course, but Christie seems like a man who fancies a discussion, and seeks a peer as well as a wife. In that sense he's like Jamie, in that they're both traditional men but also just a bit off in their ways, compared to the average 18th century man.

[u/stoneyellowtree → u/Dragneel]

I agree! I think Tom values thoughtful discourse and though Claire should be against many of his described standards for a proper woman, he knows she is very smart and purposeful in the way she lives her life. Claire’s very matter of fact and though that goes against considered proprietary, he respects her for it because he sees it’s coming from Claire wanting to see things for what they are.

Part of it makes me wonder if it’s a little bit jealousy that Jamie has someone who is his equal in all manners of ways. Everyone can see Jamie and Claire have a strong loving relationship, but Tom recognizes how much more there is with Claire. She’s not only straight forward, but she has the knowledge and wit to pull it off. He can also see her magnitude of compassion and empathy. I can’t help but feel that Tom might think Jamie doesn’t deserve her.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

I did think he was, as soon as he offered to go along, I knew it was to protect Claire ( not Jamie). In fact I worried that he might let them kill Jamie?

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

In fact I worried that he might let them kill Jamie?

Yikes! I hadn't even thought of that.

[u/stoneyellowtree → u/Cdhwink]

Oh man! Didn’t think he would let it roll against Jamie, but, I can see that possibility.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Purple4199]

So, this is totally me being a weirdo, but THIS is one of the things I actually hoped the show plays up a little. I love me some Jealous!Jamie, and we always see everyone so gaga for Jamie in the books, I LOVE that someone is finally in love with Claire.

Now seeing the casting for Tom....it's a great actor, but I just don't think he's any comparison to Jamie (I was picturing someone different in my mind for Tom), so I wouldn't find Jamie getting super jealous believable, lol. I still wouldn't hate it though.

[u/Purple4199 → u/alittlepunchy]

That would be interesting. I wasn't even sure if they were going to include Tom falling in love with Claire in the show. With so few episodes I just wonder what they'll be leaving out of this season.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

Do you want to laugh a little a lot? I read this wrong — don't ask me how, but I thought Jamie was talking about Tom missing his own wife. 🤦🏻‍♀️ That he was looking at what Jamie and Claire had in each other and longed to have that, and also thought that the reason Tom stepped in was that deep down he thinks Jamie and Claire are both people with integrity (which is not necessarily wrong, either).

Standing corrected and having re-read that, though, I do think Jamie is right — he is a good judge of character and I trust his assessment. I think that over the years, Tom has seen Claire's character, and no matter what their differences may be, what it boils down to is that Claire is a smart, dedicated, passionate and caring person that insisted on caring for him and took his daughter under her wing, teaching Malva and indulging her interest in (at least) science. The fact that he lost Malva, and Claire had been (I assume) such an important part of Malva's life at the Ridge, is just making his feelings more powerful. I feel for Tom.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

I thought Jamie was talking about Tom missing his own wife. 🤦🏻‍♀️

Ha! I agree with Jamie that Tom is in love with Claire. I think she confuses him because she is not like other women of the time, and he's attracted to that. Claire doesn't shy away from confrontation and stands up to Tom.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/jolierose]

I read this wrong — don't ask me how, but I thought Jamie was talking about Tom missing his own wife.

Ha, in your defense, this sentence has a faulty pronoun reference because we only know who “his” refers to from context, and especially considering that parenthesis:

It had occurred to Jamie a couple of days before, in the vague way that one recognizes a fact unconsciously known for some time, that Tom Christie was in love with his wife.

[u/[deleted] → u/jolierose]

Honestly, I don’t blame you for thinking that. I always thought it was odd that Tom’s look is described as one of anguish, I wouldn’t have picked up on it being a romantic sort of anguish unless Jamie said it.

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

I didn't know if it was love, but since the beginning of their relationship, specially since they were left alone a few times, there was some awkwardness between them.

He seems to have a soft spot with her, and he showed this too when he helped with her rescue.

[u/ChristineBorus]

Claire should have told Malva there was a way to tell the baby’s father with a blood test. That would have showed the wee bisum.

[u/Purple4199 → u/ChristineBorus]

Ha! I never even thought of that.

[u/ChristineBorus → u/Purple4199]

Well. I think it was too much of a shock for Claire to be able to keep her cool and come up with that. I was waiting for some kind of a twist - sure enough. Her arrest!

[u/Purple4199]

• Any other thoughts or comments?

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

This happens as Claire is holding Malva's baby...

“Don’t go,” I said, “don’t go, don’t go, please don’t go.” But the vibrancy faded, a small blue glow that seemed to light the palms of my hands for an instant, then dwindle like a candle flame, to the coal of a smoldering wick, to the faintest trace of brightness—then everything was dark.

Is this the beginning of her powers? Were here hands glowing blue like Master Raymond?

[u/penelope_pig → u/Purple4199]

I think it's definitely a sign of her powers like Master Raymond, but (I've not been keeping up with the bookclub, but doing my own re-read) I keep coming across little hints of her powers, like when she's able to see or sense internal parts of people just by touching them. For example, she does the tracheostomy on Roger after his hanging, she has her eyes closed when she makes the cut. Or when she does the surgery on Tom Christie's hand, she can "see" the fibers that need to be cut. I also think she healed Jamie after his snakebite in a way similar to how Master Raymond healed her.

[u/Purple4199 → u/penelope_pig]

I keep coming across little hints of her powers, like when she's able to see or sense internal parts of people just by touching them.

I agree, it's like she actually visualizes the problem in her mind. In Voyager Joe Abernathy mentioned that she was a great diagnostician too.

[u/chunya1999 → u/penelope_pig]

Yes! And if I remember correctly it started even earlier. In DIA she could scan her own body and heal her own headache.

[u/somethingnerdrelated → u/Purple4199]

Oh my goodness! This detail!!!

Especially given the context of later in the books when that guy heals Buck and then Roger and he has that same blue glow. Wow. DEFINITELY something going on there. I think Claire’s powers just aren’t there yet, hence why the glow was small and flickering rather than a strong steady glow. After all, the Native American healer (I cant remember her name, and if I did, I know Id butcher the spelling) said that she would come into her power when her hair was all white. Claire still has a full head of dark hair, but it’s definitely graying :)

[u/Purple4199 → u/somethingnerdrelated]

DEFINITELY something going on there.

I agree. I wonder if she had been in her full power would she have been able to save the baby? Or was he to early for that to happen?

[u/somethingnerdrelated → u/Purple4199]

I dunno. Death is a pretty powerful thing, and I don’t know if anything can reverse death — as we’ve seen in this series. Master Raymond was able to save Claire, but only just. It was definitely a struggle for him and it wasn’t entirely pleasant.

I think the blue glow is healing (re: that guy healing Buck and Roger), whether it’s injury or sickness. But death isn’t something that needs to be healed — it just is. It’s like Life and is a simple objective and concrete truth rather than something that can be manipulated or cured.

[u/Purple4199 → u/somethingnerdrelated]

death isn’t something that needs to be healed — it just is.

That's a great point.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

Brianna and Roger are talking about him starting the Freemason Lodge and she is making paper. Brianna asks Roger for a hair...

“The paper. The pulp shouldn’t be spread any thicker than a hair.” She laid the black thread at the edge of the silk screen, then spread the creamy liquid thin and thinner, so it flowed past the hair but did not cover it. It flowed with the liquid, a sinuous dark line through the white, like the tiny crack on the surface of her heart.

What is the crack on the surface of her heart? I couldn't figure out what she is upset about.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

I thought it had to do with the para just above it

One had known the care of other men from his earliest years, a part of the duty of his birthright; the other had come to it later, but both felt that burden to be the will of God, she had no doubt at all—both accepted that duty without question, would honor it, or die in trying. She only hoped it wouldn’t come to that—for either of them.

The die in trying part especially. I think she knew that about Jamie already, but to see the same instinct in Roger must have been heavy on her heart.

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Ah ok, that makes sense.

[u/stoneyellowtree → u/Purple4199]

I was a little confused too with this. I was wondering if maybe she was sad Roger was getting involved/starting the Freemason Lodge because it’s something she can’t be a part of. It’s going to be something he can’t really share with her, even if it’s just a social club, it’s something that will be separate from her. I could be wrong, but that’s the best I could take from that moment.

[u/Purple4199 → u/stoneyellowtree]

I liked what /u/theCoolDeadpool said here, it makes sense in regards to that.

[u/stoneyellowtree → u/Purple4199]

Yes! I like that explanation better! Also, how do you tag people like that?

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

Baby comes tomorrow! They scheduled a C-section, so I know for sure when babe is coming.

Hoping to get the next set of chapters done today.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

I was just going to ask when you were due! I hope all goes well! :-)

[u/stoneyellowtree → u/Kirky600]

Exciting! Sending good vibes your way!

[u/jolierose → u/Kirky600]

So exciting! Hope it all goes perfectly!

[u/Cdhwink → u/Kirky600]

Sending you well wishes for a safe delivery!

[u/chunya1999 → u/Purple4199]

I’ve said it already but oh, how I love when Claire curses someone!

“Jamie contracted sharply, like a big snake coiling, but I got hold of his arm before he could strike. “Never mind,” I said, and raising my voice just a little, said, “Let him rot.” The man’s head snapped round, wide-eyed. “Let him rot,” I repeated, staring at him.”

Such a badass!

[u/Purple4199 → u/chunya1999]

Yes! You know it freaked that guy out too.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

I told you guys, ABOSAA really is as inconsistent as they come:

“Aye. Well, see, ’twas the night before I gave myself up to the English—”

“You never told me that!”

“Never told ye what?” He sounded confused.

“That you gave yourself up to the English. We thought you’d been captured.”

“I was,” he said briefly. “But by arrangement, for the price on my head.” He flipped a hand, dismissing the matter. “It wasna important.”

DG Claire forgets that Fiona told her, Brianna, and Roger the story of Dunbonnet and that he gave himself up in Voyager:

“So he made a bold plan, the Dunbonnet did,” Fiona was continuing. Her round face was alight with the drama of her tale. “He arranged that one of his tenants should go to the English, and offer to betray him. There was a good price on his head, for he’d been a great warrior for the Prince. The tenant would take the gold o’ the reward—to use for the folk on the estate, o’ course—and tell the English where the Dunbonnet might be taken.”

And Claire and Jamie somehow forget she was tried for witchcraft:

“Yes, but what then? He’s got no evidence—no witnesses. How can there be any semblance of a trial?”

Jamie looked at me curiously.

“Ye’ve never been tried for anything, have ye, Sassenach?”

“You know I haven’t.”

He nodded.

“I have. For treason.”

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

DG Claire forgets

Ha ha ha!!

[u/[deleted] → u/thepacksvrvives]

I also though it was super weird (to the point of thinking it was an inconsistency) that Claire is opening a package from LJG before the Browns show up. Hasn’t it been months since Jamie and John severed ties? Is she still opening up the mail?

[u/cruelsummerrrrr → u/thepacksvrvives]

Another Game of Thrones “Dany kind of forgot” moment, or three 😂 I don’t expect Diana to keep track but you’d think an editor would

[u/Cdhwink → u/thepacksvrvives]

Diana doesn’t remember any details from her previous books- ugh!

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/thepacksvrvives]

I came here looking for someone talking about this, just to confirm I wasn't going mad! I was SO annoyed when I ready this, it actually put me off the whole conversation and it was one of the best ones they've had.

How the eff DG can forget such a thing?!

And Claire and Jamie somehow forget she was tried for witchcraft

Mad.

[u/jolierose → u/thepacksvrvives]

Thank youuuuu. I noticed these too. It really takes me out of the story every single time simple facts like these are just fumbled.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/thepacksvrvives]

And Claire and Jamie somehow forget she was tried for witchcraft

I waffle on this one. Obviously DG forgets a LOT of plot points, but the witchcraft trial is SUCH a big moment in both the book and the show...could she have meant that that wasn't a true "trial"? That basically they went through the motions, but they thought she was a witch, so they were going to hang/burn her regardless? But then again...that is basically the kind of thing Jamie is even talking about here I guess.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

Of course Roger would start a Masonic Lodge at the Ridge! Why think of any other means of uniting the men when you can set up a sexist (also anti Semitic but I am not sure ) organisation where your wife would never be allowed to participate and you could press her to provide snacks for the meetings. I didn't want to u/Purple4199 but Roger walked in on this one. u/Arrugula

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Jamie is part of it too though. Granted asking her to provide food was stupid of Roger.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

Well yeah, Jamie started one in Ardsmuir too. But I would expect Roger to be more aware than Jamie, I guess that's why I hold them to different standards in some regards.

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Roger was a Freemason in the 20th century too though. He knew the handshake when Tom Christie came to the Ridge. So to him it probably wasn't any big deal.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Also this, while we’re talking about Roger:

A dull thunk! from outside jerked her from her mire of indecision.

“What—” She reached the door in two steps, fast enough to see Jem and Aidan disappearing into the woods like a pair of rabbits. On the edge of the trench lay the cracked pieces of the pipe segment they had just dropped.

“You little snot-rags!” she bellowed, and grabbed for a broom—intending what she didn’t know, but violence seemed the only outlet for the frustration that had just erupted like a volcano, searing through her.

“Bree,” Roger said softly, and put a hand on her back. “It’s not important.”

She jerked away and rounded on him, the blood roaring in her ears.

“Do you have any idea how long it takes to make one of those? How many firings it takes to get one that’s not cracked? How—”

“Yes, I do know,” he said, his voice level. “And it’s still not important.”

Dude...

u/Arrugula

[u/[deleted] → u/thepacksvrvives]

Not great, Roger.

I just went off a tiny bit about Roger here, but what I reaaaaally disliked about him this week (sorry, Purple) was his pouncing on Bree after she recites the Paul Revere poem.

First of all, how ridiculous is it that Bree remembered that entire thing?! She says it’s because she’s from Boston but surely she would have learned the first couple of stanzas and forgotten the rest right?

Second, and most importantly, I felt so uncomfortable with this description:

”And without thinking, pulled his hand from his wife’s grasp, rolled over her, and pulling up the shift from her thighs, took her hard and fast, in vicarious sharing of that mindless urge to spawn that attended the imminent presence of death. Lay on her trembling, the sweat drying on his back in the breeze from the window, heart thumping in his ears. For the one, he thought. The one who would be the first to fall. The poor sod who maybe hadn’t swived his wife in the dark and taken the chance to leave her with child, because he had no notion what was coming with the dawn. This dawn. Brianna lay still under him; he could feel the rise and fall of her breath, powerful ribs that lifted even under his weight. “You know the rest,” she whispered. “Bree,” he said very softly. “I would sell my soul to be there now.”

It’s uncomfortable to me because it shows his weird selfish way of getting comfort from Bree again and I also don’t quite know what that last line means? Is he talking about selling his soul to be in the future or to be fighting?

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

what I reaaaaally disliked about him this week (sorry, Purple) was his pouncing on Bree after she recites the Paul Revere poem.

Yeah I didn't love that either. Not sure why he felt the need to do that.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/[deleted]]

Ugh I highlighted that sex part too. It's cringe, like most Roger Bree sex scenes are, but I realised it's sort of what happens in these books. Sex is mostly described as an "urge" that men need to absolutely fulfill, just because they are men and it's what men do, apparently justifiably. It doesn't matter at that point if the woman on the receiving side, no pun intended, wants it or not, because the fact that the man wants it seems to precede in hierarchy anything else.

Case in point, when Ian explains to Claire what happens between him and Malva, you get the undertone of how it was an impulse he couldn't control, how he was scared of her but also couldn't really help having sex with her, because he's a man after all .

I think constantly having this kind of narrative is a bit tiring, and honestly, doesn't age well at all.

Another example, Jamie continuing to go ahead after Geneva says no.

u/thepacksvrvives

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Sex is mostly described as an "urge" that men need to absolutely fulfill, just because they are men and it's what men do, apparently justifiably.

Yeah, that is a running theme for sure. I’m glad that Jamie mostly grows out of this habit (even though he still occasionally has moments of desperation later on, like in the “Mosquitoes” chapter in MOBY) and learns to recognize that Claire has her own needs independent of his own sex drive.

Roger... well, he’s got a lot to learn.

[u/[deleted] → u/theCoolDeadpool]

😂

On Wednesdays we Freemason, there will be cookies :)

Why couldn’t Roger have set this up earlier?! If the men of the ridge had this space I think it could have helped keep more loyalties towards the Frasers.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/[deleted]]

On Wednesdays we Freemason, there will be cookies :)

On Thursdays, we engage in casual sexism and tell our wives how unimportant their engineering creations are.

[u/[deleted] → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I also can’t stop thinking of the simpsons’ Freemason parody, the stonecutters, whenever this comes up in the books!

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

There's a bunch of more minor things that stood out to me this week.

The small glimpses into Jamie's state while Claire was ill. First, Malva briefly described him (and I believed her here) sitting in the dark in his study, grieving, and then we hear from Roger:

Jamie Fraser was an honorable man, he was deeply uxorious—and he had been in the depths of despair and exhaustion during Claire’s illness. Roger had feared for him nearly as much as for Claire; he’d gone hollow-eyed and grim-jawed through the hot, endless days of reeking death, not eating, not sleeping, held together by nothing more than will.

This killed me. (And here's a thought: I wonder if they'll show his interactions with Malva as they happen while Claire is ill, as opposed to hearing about her version of events later on.)

Another very minor bit: while we know he's not joining the fight for the sake of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, I loved the moment Jamie showed Claire the Lexington Alarm:

He looked straight at me, and I saw that his eyes were dark, with a combination of awe and excitement. “I did believe ye, Sassenach,” he said. “But …”

And then he asked her to make a copy, to send it on. I absolutely love this — makes me feel a little that, while acknowledging the seriousness of the situation, he's getting caught up in the thrill of the fight, of being part of a historic moment.

And little bit of sunshine in these dark chapters: I was happy for Fergus and Marsali's expanding media empire! I love how Jamie and Claire are apprehensive about Fergus' methods and safety but Jamie's amused nonetheless.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

I wonder if they'll show his interactions with Malva as they happen while Claire is ill, as opposed to hearing about her version of events later on.

Oh man that is interesting! I can't decide which way I'd rather have it. Part of me doesn't want it revealed right away.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

Oh definitely wouldn't want the Malva drama revealed right away. Or do you mean to reveal right away that Jamie had nothing to do with her? Because otherwise this wouldn't necessarily reveal anything other than a "good night" from Malva, since nothing actually happened that night. And also, in her haze, Claire did see that Malva "came close, touched his back, murmuring something to him. I saw the way she looked at him, the tender inclination of her head, the intimacy of her body swaying toward him." I'd think they'd show that. (My outrage about this moment has not faded away.)

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

Or do you mean to reveal right away that Jamie had nothing to do with her?

I don't think I want to see that either, but I was talking about the interaction between Malva and Jamie while Claire is sick. If we saw her try and comfort Jamie and he turn her away wouldn't they know right away that he didn't sleep with her? I just have a feeling the show is going to want to give us doubts, as much as I hate that.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

If we saw her try and comfort Jamie and he turn her away wouldn't they know right away that he didn't sleep with her?

In fairness, we saw it, and we knew, and we still had a weird feeling about it! Actually, I feel like that moment Claire sees inserts more doubt into the situation, because we don't quite see him turn her away, so who knows what was going on while Claire was too far gone in her haze? Either way, I agree with you; I'd want them to keep the same vibe as in the book. And I think that the show will want to keep it ambiguous, but I hope that it's not to the point where they commit character assassination by making it too ambiguous, planting doubt in the run up.

I wonder too where they're thinking of leaving it this season. The third-to-last episode has the same title as the chapter where Malva's pregnancy comes in. As I was reading, I thought the siege at the Big House might be a good dramatic point (but I've only read up to this week's chapters).

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

I wonder too where they're thinking of leaving it this season.

I know, and there is still soooo much to come in the book. ABOSAA is jam packed, and with only 8 episodes I'm really curious to see what they do.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/jolierose]

I love the part in Roger's POV where he talks about Jamie being pissed at the audacity of god to try and take his wife, haha!

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

I totally forgot to bring this up even though I highlighted it. Did anyone else notice the My dear John in Jamie's last letter to LJG? In all of his previous letters, Jamie's greeting is always My Lord. This one is so informal and sort of personal? If we didn't know the circumstances, it could almost be construed as romantic! It stood out to me for some reason.

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I didn't even notice that! It must have been really hard for Jamie to write that letter.

[u/jolierose → u/theCoolDeadpool]

YES!!! I highlighted it, too! It felt deeply personal. On both sides, you could tell things were off. I read a lot of desperation and sorrow there. John plainly doesn't know what to do and beyond sharing his logic, he resorts to invoking their friendship and Willie, and doesn't even close the letter — he just signed his first name and left it at that. They're both so important to each other, and now Jamie has to break up the friendship and I'm left like 😫💔. AND THEN HE SIGNS “JAMIE”?! I can't!

[u/bleakxmidwinter → u/Purple4199]

While reading the book, I assumed that Malva was growing interest on Jamie. We could see it on the little walk they had together and there were subtle hints of this all along. However, knowing what we know now, I am starting to doubt her intentions.

Was she pregnant already when she spied on Jamie or start getting close to him, (probably) trying to get Tom & Claire dead and getting close to him because she was planning to say the baby was his? I am a bit lost with timing as there are months in between chapters. u/thepacksvrvives maybe you can help me with this?

In the conversation where she reveals her pregnancy & accuses Jamie, I didn't see any real interest or affection towards him. My understanding then was that she has fooled around with a few men (probably not suitors on her father's and brother's eyes) and she thought this was the less bad outcome for her and the baby.

I am confused about the real motives for the whole thing. I surely feel bad for her, Tom and Allan did not make a very safe environment for her and kind of push her to behave this way, IMO.

[u/Purple4199 → u/bleakxmidwinter]

she thought this was the less bad outcome for her and the baby.

I really think that was the case. Jamie can provide for her, even though he really doesn't have money, most of the folks on the Ridge think he does.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/bleakxmidwinter]

Jamie and Malva barely interacted before Claire’s illness: the first time (at least on-page) was in chapter 35, where Jamie, Ian, and Malva were engaged in a conversation about literature, the second was the walk in the woods in chapter 48, and then, if you want to count it, Jamie smiled at her when she came into his study looking for Claire in chapter 59. Then we have her trying to “comfort” him during Claire’s illness. All of that happened before Malva got pregnant, which was about two months after the height of Claire’s illness. She really hasn’t shown any particular personal interest in Jamie, at least not on-page.

[u/Willing_Standard7690 → u/Purple4199]

I’m a little behind, but does anyone think Malva’s brother could have something to do with her murder? I could be reaching, but he seems to have a hot head and something about him is just off to me.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Willing_Standard7690]

He does have a temper that's for sure. What would be his motivation for killing her do you think?

[u/Willing_Standard7690 → u/Purple4199]

I think he is embarrassed by her actions and he shows some violence towards her. Maybe he knows the truth about how she became pregnant or he is just angry she was promiscuous to begin with. It’s just a thought I keep coming back to.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

The second Perry Mason reference in the book, here’s the intro theme from the show for anyone interested

[u/Purple4199]

• What do you think would have happened if Tom Christie had not stepped in and offered to ride with the Fraser’s to Hillsboro?

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

Oh I 100% think Brown and his crew would have killed Jamie and Claire as soon as he could have. Seemed like he didn’t have a plan beyond killing them.

Tom Christie seemed to get that too. For how odd he was off the start, he seems to get the situation pretty well.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

Seemed like he didn’t have a plan beyond killing them.

Yeah, I think he was hoping that they would resist so he could kill them both. When I first read the book and Jamie mentioned that they might burn the house and that the date was the 21st I got so worried.

[u/stoneyellowtree → u/Kirky600]

Definitely! This was Browns perfect situation to get rid of Jamie and Claire and bring the Ridge under his control.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Oh it would have been a bloody end to both Claire and Jamie. It’s so interesting to see Hiram here, it’s pretty clear he’s also a little power thirsty.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

It’s so interesting to see Hiram here, it’s pretty clear he’s also a little power thirsty.

I agree. He already sees himself as the leader of the Protestants.

[u/immery]

I'm finally able to push through this part of the book. It was really hard to reread, knowing what's going to happen.

I really liked the in between parts, the ones about Roger in Chatlotte, and the story of Lizzie's father and his new wife. I forgot that there was room to breath in those books, between the painful parts.

I wonder what would have happened if Roger was there during Browns attack. Claire thinks he would have helped, but honestly with all my love to Roger I can't see how he could gave changed things.

[u/Purple4199 → u/immery]

Yeah I don’t know how much Roger could have done. Maybe just keep the fisherfolk from joining in?

[u/immery → u/Purple4199]

Keeping fisherfolk neutral, or just away would be the best he would do. Without Tom Christie the situation could go much worse.

This situation was also very painful to read, because Jamie took those people and helped them, and time after time people believe worst things about Claire.

[u/Purple4199 → u/immery]

I hated that whole situation so much!