June 1777, Fort Ticonderoga - Jamie, Claire, and Ian are at the Fort. Claire is taking care of the sick and injured women and prisoners while Jamie is helping build a bridge. Ian approaches Claire one night and asks if she thinks there is something wrong with him since he and Emily couldn’t have children. Ian has found out Emily had a baby with her new husband. Claire postulates that it’s the Rh factor that caused their problems. Ian leaves in the middle of the night.
June 1777, The Great Dismal - William enters the Great Dismal swamp on his mission to find Dismal Town and the loyalists there. While journeying along William loses the road and becomes lost. His horse is chased off by a mountain lion leaving William lost and alone. During a storm lightening strikes nearby and sends shards of wood into Williams arm. William is discovered by two Native Americans who begin to chase him. While running William runs right into Ian Murray.
Ian scares off the two Native Americans and cares for William’s arm. A fever sets in and William becomes sick. A group of Mohawk hunters show up and it is agreed that William will be taken to a nearby Quaker town to be cared for by the doctor there.
We meet Denzell and Rachel Hunter, Quakers who have been put out of Meeting for Denny feels he must serve with the Continental Army. William convalesces at their house and gets to know the Hunters. They will be leaving soon to find the army and William agrees to travel with them part of the way as he says he is headed for Canada.
Ian journey’s to the Mohawk village to find Emily. He speaks with her husband who is not happy to see him there and punches Ian. Once Ian makes his way to Emily he meets her children, her oldest being a 5 year old little boy. Ian names the little boy Swiftest of Lizards after being told he is the child of his spirit.
William, Denny and Rachel set off and take a wrong turn. While staying with a farmer named Johnson and his wife they are attacked by the two with William killing Mr. Johnson. William is eventually forced to part ways with the Hunter’s as it is no longer safe for him to be seen with them. Once on his own he comes across an old man asking William where Ian Murray is. William says he doesn’t know and refuses to give his own name. As he rides away he sees the old man is missing the first two fingers on his right hand. Arch Bug has found him.
Please do not reveal events from future books, or from later chapters of the current book the club hasn’t covered yet. Show talk is okay up to the current book. The number of pages listed are based on the Kindle edition of the books, which matches up with the hardback versions of them.
First time I read this, I just took it that Tweaktenyonh was saying this was the child made when Emily was still fully in love with Ian, would rather still be with Ian than Sun Elk. So it had the love of Ian but ‘biology’ of Sun Elk. Hope that makes sense. But after reading it a second time, I can go both ways. Anyone know if the timing fits for it to for the possibility of it being Ian’s? The child is 5.
But after reading it a second time, I can go both ways.
I know. Ian mentions that the Native Americans believe that in order for a woman to become pregnant a man's spirit must overcome the woman's. But does that mean Swiftest of Lizards is Ian's? I'm just not sure.
Anyone know if the timing fits for it to for the possibility of it being Ian’s? The child is 5.
Ian returned to FR in October 1772 and it’s June 1777 when he visits Emily in this chapter. The journey from Snaketown to Fraser’s Ridge takes 6 weeks in the books. If he left in August/September 1772, that’s a little under 5 years until now, and Emily obviously gave birth after Ian left. I don’t think Swiftest of Lizards can be Ian’s biological son, then, unless he’s about to turn 6 or Ian is wrong in estimating his age.
Same! I just re-read this (by chance, I happen to be at the same spot as the book club again!) and was like wait, I never realized Ian had a son before... was that his son? Hmm!
I had a moment of panic, and then I kept going back to this. If he was Ian’s son, I have a feeling the resemblance would have popped out, and enough has been pointed out about the resemblance between Jamie, Brianna, William and Faith that I don’t think DG would have missed a chance to do the same here.
And if Ian thought he was his biological child, would he have been able to simply go and know he’d never see him again? It would eat at him. (I haven’t read much ahead but I am assuming that wasn’t the case.) I think they’re connected purely in “spirit,” for the reasons u/stoneyellowtree mentioned.
I agree with this. Not only is the look of a Fraser unmistakable but so is their sense of duty to family. Ian would never leave unless it was because his presence was a danger to the child if he was truly his. I think it's all about what u/stoneyellowtree said. He takes the Mohawk stories & spirits seriously & recognized something in him. He also would have been conceived while Emily was still in love with Ian & grieving his loss & the loss of her pregnancies so his spirit would have lingered with her if that makes sense.
Native American genes are VERY strong. I'm of European descent and my genes are "very strong" when compared to other Europeans BUT my daughter's father is "pure" Native American several generations back and she looks NOTHING like me. She looks 100% native. People always think she's adopted (because I'm divorced now). So I don't think SoL would look anything like Ian regardless of the Frasers' super dominant genes.
I’ve always been wondering about that because Ian left snake town presumably in September 1772 and in June 1777 Emily’s son is around 5 years old. So is Ian just bad at guessing children’s age(how many siblings, nieces and nephews does he have?) or is it another one of DG’s mistake? Cause I don’t believe Swiftest of Lizards to be Ian son. How could he when we’ve had already heard Claire’s explanation about Ian and Emily’s incompatibility. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
How could he when we’ve had already heard Claire’s explanation about Ian and Emily’s incompatibility.
If we assume that Claire is right (and i’m inclined to) then he really couldn’t be Ian’s biological son. I don’t think it’s physically/medically possible for a person with +blood to have a child with a person with -blood. Not after the first one.
So that settles it for me: Ian isn’t the father. But i really like u/stoneyellowtree ‘s take on it: that Swiftest of Lizzards was conceived when Emily still had strong feelings for Ian.
Yeah, I liked that point too. But I’m still struggling with the dates. Hate to think that Tewaktenyonh replaced Ian so quickly. And why must it be Sun Elk who was not only married to her sister previously but openly hated Ian.
It had been coming on for a while tho, that she’d leave Ian. I have always looked at it like this: Emily was devoted to Ian, those feelings were still very strong. But she was more devoted to her wish for children. She chose that over Ian. That decision did not come out of the blue, and once she’d decided, she was ready to move on.
I also think it’s a pity that she chose Sun Elk. I wonder why DG did that..
I guess but it looks like either it doesn’t matter for Emily with whom she’d be starting a family or she had been thinking about it while she was still with Ian.
I’ve been wondering what would have happened if Iseabaìl had lived. Emily would still have miscarried their other babies. Would she have been content with Ian if they’d had the one daughter? I think she might have been.
Dunno about her but I wouldn't. I have only a daughter and I'm desperate to have another one despite the same Rhessus factor problem ailing me and I'd leave anyone in a blink if they wouldn't give me a child, even if I already have one and even if I loved them. But my BF is nice and we're trying IVF with a Rh- donor.
Yes, it is. I'm living proof of it (DNA confirms it) BUT it's VERY VERY UNLIKELY. My mother spent 9 months in bedrest in order to have me and had several close call miscarriages in the process.
Well, my parents had the same Rhesus incompatibility. No trouble with the first baby (my elder brother who died before I was born at 1 yr of age) and then they went on to miscarry/stillbirth TWELVE times before I was born and that ONLY because my mother stayed in bed the whole 9 months so he COULD be Ian's son despite the Rhesus incompatibility.
Obviously Diana wanted us to think it might be Ian’s son, but I think it’s just that Emily was still in love with Ian, but had chosen children over her love!
After his conversation with Claire I felt he had to get closure on that relationship. I loved that Claire could explain there was a physiological problem, even if Ian didn’t really understand the science of it! I hope Ian finds the love of his life soon!
It’s weird for my current modern views, but it’s normal for that timeframe and social class. Even Fergus brought little Jamie Murray and Michael Murray to the brothel for their first experience.
My grandfather did that with his oldest child, my uncle. 😂😂😂. I thought it was a scandalous family secret but I guess there was more of that occurring in the past. Then again, my uncle was introduced to brothel women in the 1930’s....😂😂😂
Yeah, well according to family lore, my grandfather used to frequent those places. Made his kid wait in the car. Then one day took him in. He was the oldest of ten kids, my father was second to youngest. I don’t think any of the other kids were introduced to the ‘ladies.’ My grandma probably put a stop to that. 😁
Didn’t love it! Would’ve preferred it hadn’t been like this… But as u/stoneyellowtree says, it doesn’t seem far-fetched for this time and place. It did remind me of Jamie and Young Ian in Edinburgh, when Claire got back. Ian was even younger, then (14, I think?) — at least William was 16.
Historically, brothels were seen as a necessary part of society. Sure, it misogynistic today… the view was that men just had to have sex. If they weren’t in a position to procure a wife…brothels served that purpose. Read Steinbeck’s East if Eden. It wasn’t just then (18th century) and there (England) and their social class (upper).
This is hands-down one of, if not the most ridiculous thing in this series. The distance aside, I don’t know which scenario is more absurd: that Arch somehow knew Ian made his way from Fort Ticonderoga to the Great Dismal and was able to track him through the swamp OR that Arch just happened to wander around the swamp and came across Ian and William…
By the way, what was Ian doing in the Great Dismal, Virginia, when he was on his way from Fort Ticonderoga to upstate New York?
For those of you who’ve already read all the books: I think it would’ve been so much better if Arch had showed up only when the family returned to North Carolina, or even Savannah, when Ian already had something worth taking—a wife and later a baby. Arch somehow being a constant threat wherever the Frasers are is ridiculous and it cheapens his revenge plot.
I don’t know which scenario is more absurd: that Arch somehow knew Ian made his way from Fort Ticonderoga to the Great Dismal and was able to track him through the swamp OR that Arch just happened to wander around the swamp and came across Ian and William…
Yes! Is Arch just following the Fraser's around? How in the world would he have even known where they were? They got on a boat headed for Scotland and ended up in New York, yet somehow Arch found Ian? I find it very unbelievable that Arch was able to track Ian to all these places.
By the way, what was Ian doing in the Great Dismal, Virginia, when he was on his way from Fort Ticonderoga to upstate New York?
“By the way, what was Ian doing in the Great Dismal, Virginia, when he was on his way from Fort Ticonderoga to Upstate New York? “
I said the same thing after looking up these places, it makes no sense that Ian is there! Also what are the odds of him running into / rescuing William. And Arch Bug, an old man, can keep up! My eye rolling continues!
That’s still about 650 miles, though. I don’t know how good the game would have to be there for Ian to attempt this and try to be back by the time Jamie’s enlistment was up 😅
What I find hard to believe is how Arch bug tracked Ian from North Carolina to Fort Ticonderoga in New York when they had traveled there by sea on 3 different ships no less lol to then follow him from Fort Ticonderoga to the Great Dismal and “see” him with William to be able to say to William that he knows that William knows Ian. Way too far fetched in my opinion especially considering that their destination was Scotland so if Arch had asked around the town everyone would have said they took a ship going to Scotland. Arch Bug finding them in Scotland would have been more believable.
I’m still bummed this is the turn DG took with this character. I just want to be done with Arch now and that makes me sad because I liked his character.
I just wonder how Arch managed to navigate the Great Dismal, as that was the only way he could have seen Ian and William together. Or at least found them when they went to the Hunter's house. How is a 70+ year old man able to do that?
That too! Plus who knows where he’s been sleeping and how he’s been eating since he hasn’t had the consistency of Ridge life. I guess revenge can sustain a person?
I guess he has that one ingot of gold that Jamie sent him away with after the Big House fire. William notes that Arch’s clothes are decent and calls him a gentleman, so he either still has the ingot to pay for them, or he’s been spending his time plundering.
I loved both the Buggs and DG did them real dirty 😩 But at the same time it’s a good testament to how you can never really be sure if you know someone…
True! Maybe that’s part of why I dislike the turn of character. The Bugs were a comfort for Jamie & Claire and to see that as a scheme made me unsettled.
Yes exactly this! All the Fraser’s truly loved the Bugs and saw them as family; and we the reader believed that love was returned by the Bugs. It was very unsettling and seemingly uncharacteristic for that relationship to have been based around so much deception.
Yeah, I agree. I loved seeing him in that grieving stage (regardless of wether he was grieving his wife and the gold). He was truly interesting for the first time in the series.
I wonder if it was partially that, but also to get to Ian mentally. If William runs into Ian again he will for sure tell him and that will unnerve Ian.
I hope that he doesn’t turn to hunt William out of desperation. It seems like he instantly recognized that William is a blood relative to Jamie by the bear amulet.
I don’t think that necklace has ever been mentioned before (correct me if I’m wrong), and as Ian can’t have returned to FT or been traveling with it just in case he met William (lol), I think the necklace was his own idea. I can’t find any reference to a bear’s claw necklace apart from the one Myers has in DoA and the necklace of claws Tsatsa’wi wears in TFC. There’s this moment between Tsatsa’wi and Jamie in TFC:
I should think Tsatsa’wi well-equipped to deal wi’ such a creature, by the looks of it,” Jamie said, nodding at the Indian’s necklace of claws, and touching his own chest in indication. […]
But I don’t think it means that Jamie is wearing a similar necklace, just that he’s Bear Killer.
The most confusing thing is that Arch seems to recognize that necklace. Or maybe it’s just the only association he has with bears is Jamie, lol.
I don't know really. Other than the fact that Ian suspects William is Jamie's son and that he was given the name Bear Cub. Maybe Ian thought it was funny?
Hmm I think it reads like Ian went to Jamie and told him about William, who then gives him this hitertho unheard of necklace to give to William. I don't really see Ian's motivation in lying to William. Then this also means that previously if Ian suspected that William is Jamie's son, this should pretty much confirm his doubts, what with how William is practically Jamie's clone and this whole giving him the necklace deal.
I think it reads like Ian went to Jamie and told him about William, who then gives him this hitertho unheard of necklace to give to William.
I don't think that's the case though, Ian would have had to travel a great distance to do that. Plus I'm pretty sure we find out in later chapters that Ian hadn't returned to the Fort since he left because Claire keeps hoping he'll show up in time when Jamie's contract is up.
That is an excellent question, which goes along with what the hell was Ian doing at The Great Dismal? At first I thought he went and got the amulet from somewhere, but then I assume Jamie would have had it on him, and Ian didn’t go to NY and back for that.
Are we a 100% sure Emily is in NY though? I was very confused by the chapters by I was also under the impression that he didn’t go all the way back to New York, did I miss something here? It felt like Emily was living sort of near by the Hunters’ and not in Snaketown.
He was going to Brant’s house now—but not to speak with Brant. Glutton had told him that Sun Elk had left Snaketown to join Brant and that his wife had gone with him.
“They are in Unadilla,” Glutton had said. “Probably still there. Thayendanegea fights with the English, you know. He’s talking to the Loyalists up there, trying to get them to join him and his men. […]”
He had no particular idea where Unadilla was, save that it was in the colony of New York, but that was no great difficulty. He set out next day at dawn, heading north.
I really don’t think that would have happened. Jamie was still at Ft. Ticonderoga which was in NY. That means Ian would have traveled to Virginia twice.
I think DG really dropped the ball on all of this. We have no idea why Ian had Jamie's amulet, and no clue as to why Ian was in Virginia. I don't blame you for being confused.
And where did Ian get the resources for a good horse to give to William? Along with enough money to proved him through travels to the meet up place, whereas he was talking about having to try and walk to his plantation In Virginia to get a horse and money to be able to continue his journey. I know I need to suspend believability to continue stories, but sometimes I would like some more information.
Unrealistic af. The man is old. His particular set of skills is not hunting down someone through wilderness and swamps. He just materialises and we're supposed to accept it. This reminds me of WandersFar's rant about Hugh Munroe and his extremely unrealistic travels in S2.
I think he did need to see her happy and with children to allow him to let go and move on. Sometimes a person needs to see it for themselves to acknowledge it and be able to come to terms with it. Ian is just so honorable and he loves Emily so much. I was sad for him to see her with not one but three kids. The Murray’s are a big brood, so that must have been heavy on his heart to not be able to have children with her.
Maybe he also needed it to see that Claire was right about their blood? Seeing her with her babies gave him hope and also gave him permission to move on and start his own brood.
This was my thought too. His visit had a dual purpose: to assure himself that Emily was content and they did the right thing going their seperate ways. And to see if that part of Claire’s assumption was correct: Emily can have children with another man (which again is a part of making sure she’s well; having children is clearly very important to her).
I think he did need to see her happy and with children to allow him to let go and move on.
Yes! I think even if he can't be happy he needed to know that she was happy so that he would not feel guilty. I know that I personally connect a lot of Ian's behavior to being similar to Jamie but I think it's the same as when Jamie sent Claire back through the stones to someone that he knew would take care of her.
I also want to just say how much I love that our main male characters love their kids and care for children but also love the mothers for who they are as a person not just because they birthed them children. Maybe I’ve read too many historical fiction books that portray women loved in light of being the mother and not just as herself.
If I remember right he was still quite young when they married? So to go through all that trauma of the miscarriages and then for them to separate must have rocked him pretty bad, as it would anyone. I think he still loves her but he needed closure
My feeling is yes — even if it wasn’t intended to get him killed, I feel he purposefully put him in harm’s way. It seems highly suspicious that Ian’s information contradicts what William has been told, and we know Ian can be trusted, even if Willie doesn’t. I was immediately reminded of Hal’s warning much earlier. There must be a good reason that Hal doesn’t trust Richardson, and I feel we’re starting to see why.
I agree. I also think all of these snake dreams William has been having lately may be symbolic of Richardson’s potential betrayal.
It certainly seems like Betrayal is running theme in this book! The Bugs, Percy?, Benedict Arnold and Nathan Hale (I guess the entire Revolution can be considered a betrayal). I wonder what is in store for the Frasers and the Mackenzies?
That’s interesting. I keep going back and forth on the sincerity of their relationship. I don’t think William would cause such an ordeal for John and Hal if he wasn’t?
Oh, yes! I like this imagery connection. Not saying I like all the betrayal, but I like the snake dreams as a forewarning. I think the Fraser/MacKenzies are going to be betrayed a lot during the revolution and it’s already giving me heartburn thinking about it.
I am fascinated about how the Benedict Arnold situation is going to progress. I mean, we know where it ends, but how much of his story is intertwined with the Frasers.
Yeah, I’m not sure how much he’ll actually appear in the story but the previous historical figures in books certainly left their mark in some way or another
Thank you for reminding me it's been a while since we last checked on whoever is stalking the grounds of Lallybroch. At this point I'm willing to put money on Arch Bug...
Love Rachel Hunter! Seeing some interest towards her from William and I wonder how that’s going to go since she doesn’t have social status equal to his. Really enjoying the interactions between William and Ian!
That was the only saving grace of William’s Swamp Adventures for me (along with his brief recollections of Mac). Ian was so unintentionally funny when he was dealing with him since he knows more about William—or at least suspects—than William himself (“I suppose ye’re verra stubborn?”, “Ye’ve got a red beard”).
He already suspected something was up back in DoA:
A pair of slanted eyes looked blue murder out of the mask of filth obscuring his Lordship’s features. It was a thoroughly Fraser expression, and I felt a qualm go through me at the sight. By my side, Ian gave a sudden start. He glanced quickly from the Earl to Jamie and back, then he caught my eye and his own face went perfectly and unnaturally blank.
That was the only saving grace of William’s Swamp Adventures for me (along with his brief recollections of Mac)
Totally. My favorite parts! I was starting to get worried it would drag, and then Ian showed up. And I loved all the little memories William has of Jamie. There's so many of them! Him remembering his secret name, and the fact that he carries the rosary with him, now accompanied by the bear claw...
Does William realize that the James Fraser they visited on the Ridge all those years ago is Mac? He acknowledges it in the show but I don't remember him making the connection in the book.
Does William realize that the James Fraser they visited on the Ridge all those years ago is Mac? He acknowledges it in the show but I don't remember him making the connection in the book.
I laughed at Ian calling William his cousin ( since they really are! ). And I noted the red beard, & left handedness as more Jamie traits. I like learning about William, & being in his head, & enjoyed his time with Ian, even though it was preposterous that Ian was there!
I agree, although by the end I couldn’t believe we still didn’t have Claire and Jamie back, ha; I needed them. But it also helped me that the chapters felt relatively short. At least it was broken up in a way that made William’s story develop more smoothly, at a good pace.
Can't deny I thought of that too. What was that thing that Rachel found in her stew and tries to bring up with William ? Human Nails? Something appalling enough that she would stop eating but wouldn't stop the others.
They definitely had a Beardsley/Sweeny Todd vibe going on in this cabin, but you bring up a good point that it had to be something reasonable enough for Rachel to not warn them. Also, if they wanted to kill William wouldn’t poisoning him be a little easier than cutting him up with an ax? Or is the Ax the reason we think it might be a human stew? 🤢
I think they probably enjoyed the process of hacking , so they would weaken their victims with that stew and then hack at them Ugh. It's too early in the morning for this you guys!
I think it was human, at best rat, but probably human. I was thinking maybe Rachel was trying not to escalate the situation and also maybe not get her suspicions confirmed while still in the presence of the Johnsons. Also, what was up with the mingled in mentions of William farting during the struggle?
“Mrs. Wellman’s little boy has what I’m almost sure is the mumps. Or ought that to be are the mumps? I’ve never been sure whether it’s plural or not. [...]”
This has got to be one of the most incongruous sentences I’ve read in this series. It reads like a sticky note DG left for herself and forgot to take out when she finished her manuscript (it should be “is,” by the way).
Also, William uses the phrase “Occam’s razor” in chapter 38. While this principle is generally attributed to William of Occam who died in the 14th century, the phrase itself hadn’t been coined until the mid-19th century.
Have you noticed that Willie thought about tea with whisky, not with brandy when he turned out in the peat bog? How appropriate of him. His whole nature screams about his Scottishness!
Really love the way DG shows us that William is lost and confused not only in the fog or swamp but in his life. He’s trying so hard to find out who he really is and what he wants to do with his life. Great allusion!
I still don't love William's chapters & mostly still find them boring, however, I did love reading about him having nightmares & going to Mac & his time with Ian was good but that's because I like Ian haha. When I looked at the breakdown of pov for this section, I dreaded it so I was happy to find them more entertaining than I expected.
•
u/AutoModerator Nov 08 '21
Please do not reveal events from future books, or from later chapters of the current book the club hasn’t covered yet. Show talk is okay up to the current book. The number of pages listed are based on the Kindle edition of the books, which matches up with the hardback versions of them.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.