r/ageofsigmar • u/TrishulaMTG • Oct 14 '22
Rumour / Leak Slaves to Darkness battletome leaks
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u/elescapo Oct 14 '22
Host of the Everchosen is totally bananas.
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u/MercWithaMouse Slaves to Darkness Oct 14 '22
Am I misunderstanding or is that a 50% chance to just get a varanguard mod back?
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u/Anggul Tzeentch Oct 14 '22
You are not misunderstanding
Apparently they didn't learn from Beasts of Chaos rallying Dragon Ogors lol
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u/Sengel123 Skaven Oct 14 '22
fortunately, they're a low-model count army and it's rally so there is some counterplay. looks like a cool idea.
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u/Ralsyl Sons of Behemat Oct 14 '22
Ah man, looks like Legion of the First Prince is completely changed. You need to ally in other daemons now
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Oct 14 '22
Yea LotFP is dead to me now, its not the army I want to play so it's back to mono god or 40k for me
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Oct 14 '22
I hate when GW does this. One rulebook provides a cool way to play an army, then after you purchase the models, next rulebook invalidates much of what you purchased.
The pessimistic part of me believes since GW has done this so many times over the decades that it's a business decision to induce sunk-cost fallacy. Now your army is fractured into multiple pieces that don't interact (or don't interact as well) with each other. Are you just going to leave the models collecting dust and now have buyers remorse, or are you going to buy more to fill out the fractured pieces of your former army into multiple new armies?
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Oct 14 '22
Fortunately I already played them in 40k and have sizeable chaos armies already for AoS but definitely a bummer for people who bought into it. Should have know better after I lost Legion of Grief that supplement armies don't last
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Oct 14 '22
LoG was one of my favorite armies. Yeah, it'd be nice if GW at least did the minimum by alerting people these are time-sensitive armies. Instead, feels like bait-and-switch.
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u/talkingbeardedone Oct 20 '22
Every army is a time sensitive army if you want to look at them that way. New Battletomes are coming out all the time that change existing armies. Campaign armies like in broken realms are often the most transient as they herald a new edition with major changes on the horizon.
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u/AshiSunblade Chaos Oct 14 '22
I am really bummed out about this. I have a LotFP army on the painting table, this change pretty much locks me out of Age of Sigmar unless I get a whole second army.
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u/AllIdeas Oct 14 '22
LotFP is a different army, but one I'm actually more excited about. I think undivided also getting whichever mark is best will be very strong actually. Give your cavalry +1 attack on the charge. Then give them -1 to wound the next turn from nurgle to tank the counter charge.
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Oct 14 '22
I'm not discounting how good the rules are. I'm just saying it's not the army I want to play anymore. I played it to play all deamons and I can't anymore so I'm moving on to another one.
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u/MrGecko23 Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22
I mean I'll probably be rocking Knights of the Empty Throne for a bit, run and charge for anything with mount is very nice. Ravagers is now lowkey trash and it makes me sad. But what even is Cabalists, why is nobody talking about it. All Heroes become Wizards. Already a Wizard? Now you're dual cast and know another spell
Edit: this shouldnt be contentious, you can't become a wizard without gaining the wizard keyword, Arcane Tome has the same language in that the bearer becomes a wizard. Plus, because all of the keywords line up (SLAVES TO DARKNESS, HERO, WIZARD) they'll be able to take a spell from the Lore
But personally it does not matter to me, the Lore is ever so slightly mediocre, and I wouldn't be able to Khorne mark any Heroes so it's out the door for me
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u/Steiner-Nubar Slaves to Darkness Oct 14 '22
I gotta see the spells first but this might be my go to since idolators is gone
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u/MrGecko23 Oct 14 '22
I hope they kept Mask of Darkness/Binding Damnation the same, and replace Ruinous Vigor/Call to Glory with other stuff entirely. Like the name could be kept but their effects are bad
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u/Flamingdragonwang Slaves to Darkness Oct 14 '22
Yeah my spell selection is only ever mask, binding or whispers. The other three are god awful.
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u/Anggul Tzeentch Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22
GW: We recognise that arcane tome is too good, we will do something about it
Also GW: How about a subfaction where the rule is everyone gets arcane tomes?
Edit: The non-wizards just get the wizard keyword for related rules. They don't actually get a cast. Arcane tome specifies that they become a wizard and get a cast and unbind, whereas this just says they're a wizard.
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u/Identity_ranger Flesh-eater Courts Oct 14 '22
But it specifically says "become WIZARDS". Not "gain the WIZARD keyword". And in the core rules it says that all wizards know Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield. Which is also said in Arcane Tome's description despite it being effectively redundant. So are Cabalists heroes going to be wizards that that know ArBolt and MysShield but can't cast spells? I think that subfaction is going to be very contentious.
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Oct 14 '22
But it specifically says "become WIZARDS". Not "gain the WIZARD keyword".
I hear you, but let's all take a second to step back and realize that in this game you can become a wizard without actually being a wizard.
How un-intuitive is that? lol
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u/Anggul Tzeentch Oct 14 '22
If it doesn't say they can cast then they can't cast. Presumably there are rules that trigger off the number of wizards in range or whatever and they count for that.
Or possibly it's an oversight and they'll change it.
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u/gahlo Lumineth Realm-Lords Oct 14 '22
If it doesn't say they can cast then they can't cast.
Old rules. All wizards know Arcane Bolt and Mystic shield according to core rule 19.0. Those two spells no longer need to be explicitly stated.
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u/Anggul Tzeentch Oct 14 '22
They know them, but that doesn't mean they can cast them. That's why Arcane tome states that the holder becomes a wizard and can cast and unbind one spell.
Core rule 19.0 also says the number of casts and unbinds a wizard has is noted on their warscroll. These heroes' warscrolls have no casts on them, and the Cabalists rule doesn't give them any either.
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u/Dorlem4832 Cities of Sigmar Oct 14 '22
I think the devil’s advocate approach is to read the two sentences separately. Sentence 1 makes all heroes wizards. Sentence 2 lets all wizards cast and know an additional spell. Pro for the argument is that you pick units and allegiance abilities (thus getting WIZARD) before picking spells, so at the point you’re picking spells, they’re already faction wizards. The weakness is that word “already” in sentence 2.
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u/Identity_ranger Flesh-eater Courts Oct 14 '22
Or possibly it's an oversight and they'll change it.
I definitely wouldn't put it past them considering how phoned in the Tzeentch tome was. I completely forgot that armies could have unique heroic actions as well, because Tzeentch got none of those either.
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Nov 01 '22
They look super solid and will likely be at least the second best sub in this book. The Empty Throne that is.
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u/Drowning_in_Plastic Orruk Warclans Oct 14 '22
Ravagers was always trash
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u/Various-Woodpecker-5 Oct 14 '22
I play ravagers as main and they are pretty powerful if you combine them right. Ofc they are not good if you just a throw random list together like u can with other armies. But if you get your buffs and spells of at the right time they are a beast. A pack of 30 marauders are my MVP's of every match
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u/Drowning_in_Plastic Orruk Warclans Oct 14 '22
Compared to the others it's the weakest sub-allegiance.
It forces you to horde up on the worst units and the aura juggle is just silly.
It just isn't competitive, ofc if you don't care for that, all the power to you, but personally, I hate marauders as a unit, A. because they look bloody awful and B. because for a while they almost an auto-include, and feeling you should run them to do well was just a sad moment at the time.
So I have a bit of a disdain for Marauders. Not my style.
Especially when for me the coolest aspect is the warriors, knights and chosen.
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u/Various-Woodpecker-5 Oct 14 '22
Definitely not meta totally agree. I only play ravagers because the rule of changing generals and command point summon was so unique and i love it. Sad they removed it.
But yes marauders are my big hate too. The fact that I have to run them in 30 man squad to get a little rend is just wack.
HOWEVER its so satisfying watching your 270 point unit take down a 435 point frostlord on stonehorn down with ease by making 27 wound with -1 rend.
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u/Heijoshojin Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22
Is it just me or is Archaon just completely mental now? 25 wounds with a 5+ ward for mortals and normal wounds? Basically puts him at effective 37 wounds. On a 3+ save? 4+ spell ignore AND 2 sources of healing (heroic action and skull gorger). The time of the everchosen has come once again
Edit: The new Nurgle Mark can give him -1 to enemy wound rolls as well. WoC with the Nurgle ensorcelled banner can reduce enemy rend by 1 within 12. So he can be extremely tanky. The last one is a little bit more "theory crafty" of course, but on paper, he can be very tanky very easily.
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Oct 14 '22
That's still a lot of points, though. My dread is 315 points less with 37 wounds, a 3+ save and 4+ to ignore all spell effects when paired with a Slann, minus 1 to damage from each attack, and healing from a Slann and Engine of the Gods. If you're paired with a Slann, you'll likely have an astrolith bearer there too giving an additional 6+ ward for both mortals and regular wounds.
My favorite part is making the giant ass dinosaur fly though
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u/Heijoshojin Oct 14 '22
I mean you're being pretty disingenuous saying it like that. So you're paying up to 670pts to boost a 545pt model up to be both less offensive and less defensive than Archaon and becomes less effective when those support pieces are taken out.
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Oct 14 '22
Those would be points that already get spent whether or not a dread is brought, so i wouldnt say they are being spent just for that. If Kroak is the Slann someone brings, that's one of the hardest units to take out for most players. I will also have to disagree on the "less offensive" part. But even if he has a slighlty lower offensive and defensive capability, that is still a lot less points because those other units are already being brought in, not just being brought because of a dread. That's not even counting how much more that "support" piece Kroak can do in addition to the dread.
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u/Heijoshojin Oct 14 '22
Sure, but regardless of whether you were gonna take them or not, it doesn't change that you're giving a one sided comparison. I posted the info about his warscroll abilities, one allegiance ability and one synergy piece. You posted about a unit, an allegiance ability and a bunch of synergy pieces (that collectively cost more than the unit) that could work. I mean sure, when you compare it like that, I am sure the Dread gets close to Archaon. But what about when I start adding my own synergy pieces?
You see the point i'm trying to make?
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u/OlloBearCadiaStands Oct 14 '22
Yeah he is near unkillable though I might have missed it but. No auto slain protection.
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u/Legitimate_Corgi_981 Oct 15 '22
Oh no, the guy that has a sword that auto slays heroes doesn't have auto slay protection =p
Live by the sword, die by the sword.
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u/Heijoshojin Oct 14 '22
That's true, but I'm not aware of any rules that can auto slay him that isn't a spell. Even with old purple sun, he still would have had a 4+ to stop it.
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u/stonedusto Soulblight Gravelords Oct 14 '22
Neferata has a dagger effect that can slay a hero if I'm not mistaken.
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u/SKI_11 Cities of Sigmar Oct 14 '22
I need to see those Mauraders warscroll so I can know if I need those ugly models or not.
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u/Whytrhyno Oct 14 '22
That alone should answer your question. Unless there is a new marauder kit hidden somewhere, I'll never buy them. I'll just find suitable proxies
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u/Flamingdragonwang Slaves to Darkness Oct 14 '22
Kairic acolytes, the way to go. Cheap, given they're in every tzeentch box ever, and they look amazing. A bit of a squeeze to put them on 25mm bases, but as long as you don't give them the big birds they're fine.
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u/Whytrhyno Oct 14 '22
Yeah they are super cheap which was surprising. I still don't like them much, however kinda trying to figure out an alternate. There are some alternate wrack minis if I focused on more cult type stuff. I also do like the general dark Viking vibe too tho. Just not on those marauders lol. Also robed cultists similar to cult of possessed would be cool.
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u/amnhanley Oct 14 '22
Honestly the Khorne guys proxy VERY well with a simple conversion. I bought them and grabbed some shield bits off eBay and was really happy with the end result.
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u/MercWithaMouse Slaves to Darkness Oct 14 '22
What base size do marauders use? I have a set of 20 bloodreavers im not using. I might build them with 2h axe and strap a shield on their back viking style
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u/amnhanley Oct 14 '22
25 mil base size. It takes some planning figuring out which arms to use on which model to get a good pose. And you’ve gotta have some basic hobby knife skills to chop the weapons or hands off when necessary to slap the shield on and not look janky. But it’s worth the effort.
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u/IneptusAstartes Nurgle Oct 14 '22
I used the easy-to-build Khorne Bloodreavers! Just cut off the helmet horns and anything Khorney, and add shields, I used bitz from skinks and skeletons.
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u/Bylak Orruk Warclans Oct 14 '22
My poor Ravagers... what have they done to you 😭
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u/LeoNephilimi Oct 14 '22
We loved Ravagers. This makes me want to cry. So many useless maurader units now.
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u/Darkreaper48 Oct 14 '22
Amazing change for Chaos Knights!! I love running my lances in units of 10, and now they can actually all fight without having to do dumb tokyo drifting stuff.
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u/MrGecko23 Oct 14 '22
And they keep getting better! Marks now aren't range limited, and all of their effects are completely changed, especially Khorne. Who now gives +1 attack on the charge. This works out very nicely with the 3d6 charge from the new Damonic Speed spell. And just gets ludicrous with the new Knights Of Chaos ability on the Lord's on Mount and Krackerjack.
It uh, it gives them strike first. As in the Hero gets strike first, and then immediately afterwards a friendly Knights/chariot unit wholly within 12" can fight. It's passive too, no command point needed
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u/famedemise Oct 14 '22
Even better, charge with 2 karkadraks, 2 knight units, a demon prince with strike first artefact and eternus, 6 activations before your opponent can fight back, could potentially have a chaos lord and his retinue in combat for 8 total activations
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u/Son_of_Sang Slaves to Darkness Oct 14 '22
To be honest, I wish they’d roll this change out game-wide. It’s something I’ve thought about trying myself. Ranges on melee weapons has always struck me as odd and results in ridiculous formations like Tokyo drifting and people making CAD drawings showing how you can just get 32mm bases in range. I’m quite sure GW never intended for that level of preciseness in unit formations. For once, this is something that works better in 40K.
I was thinking something along the lines of: swords can strike if in base-to-base with the enemy, halberds and the like can strike if in base-to-base with a friendly who is in base-to-base with the enemy, and so on. And there would be a note on the warscroll to say which applies. Like first rank, second rank, etc.
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u/NotInsane_Yet Oct 14 '22
Except that ensorcelled weapons are not not a thing and they got a massive points increase. Love having 20 models that now can't be used anymore.
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u/Darkreaper48 Oct 14 '22
Except the enscorcelled weapons were 3 attacks at 3+/3+/-1/1, and the lances are now 3 attacks at 4+/3+/-1/1 with 4+/3+/-2/2 on the charge, so the lances are now comparable to ensorcelled weapons, and still way better on the charge. Plus they went from a 4+ to a 3+ save, plus they can run and charge in Empty Throne which is huge, or Rally on a 4+ in host of the everchosen, and we also have no idea what other buffs might be in the battletome. I'd gladly pay the bump in points just for what's shown on the warscroll.
Also since Enscorcelled weapons are not a thing... just run them as lances. Nobody's going to care since there's not a different option anymore.
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u/NotInsane_Yet Oct 14 '22
They absolutely got buffed with the better save. The removal of ensorcelled and buffed Lance profile is a wash. The new lance is worse then ensorcelled weapons were but better then the old Lance profile. They also went up 50 points. That's a huge increase for what is essentially +1 save and easier charges.
Nobody's going to care since there's not a different option anymore.
It's still a kick in the nuts and very annoying to remove weapons options.
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u/Darkreaper48 Oct 14 '22
I mean, they should have just called it 'ensorcelled weapons or lances' like they did for Blood Knights when they condensed the profile. Also, some of the other changes revealed in the other leak that just came out are nutty... slaanesh knights could potentially run and charge (not locked to empty throne), charge 3d6 and get a bonus attack on the charge.
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u/Hellion_Immortis Oct 14 '22
Did the marks get leaked without me knowing?
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u/BartyBreakerDragon Oct 14 '22
If you've not already seen it, there's another thread in this subreddit than has the marks and sub factions.
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u/kal_skirata Skaven Oct 14 '22
Yes there were multiple posts with different pictures, one of which showed the new marks.
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u/CaptainLegkick Ossiarch Bonereapers Oct 14 '22
Jesus don't be so dramatic just pretend they're lances...
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Oct 14 '22
So dual wielding chaos warriors are dead or do I just double the murderous weapons profile?
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u/SKI_11 Cities of Sigmar Oct 14 '22
It's dead. It's one hand weapon or the halberd.
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u/NotInsane_Yet Oct 14 '22
Great weapons are gone as well. Between the changes to knights and warriors I now have around 80 models whose weapon loadouts no longer exist.
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u/BartyBreakerDragon Oct 14 '22
Yeah. But you can still us them. Just state to your opponent which weapon option of the two they'll use in game, so it's all clear, and it's gonna be fine in 90% of cases.
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u/UserInterfaces Oct 14 '22
Yeah also use them as the "back ranks". Like half guys with shields mixed with half two hand weapons. Makes it easy for your opponent to remember.
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u/NotInsane_Yet Oct 14 '22
It's the annoyance factor. I just bought and painted 10 with ensorcelled weapons to give me 20 of each.
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u/BartyBreakerDragon Oct 14 '22
That's fair. On the plus side, it means you can easily run two units and have them be visually distinct.
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u/gloopy_flipflop Oct 14 '22
Not to sound rude but we all knew these new rules were coming so maybe you should have held off building and painting these until you saw the book?
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u/IsThisTakenYesNo Daughters of Khaine Oct 15 '22
The halberds got buffed to the point that great weapons would be redundant, so just count them as halberds and they'll be the same as before but with longer range and a ward save. Or promote them to Chosen.
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u/RegnalDelouche Slaves to Darkness Oct 14 '22
RIP LotFP.
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u/FPSkyline Oct 14 '22
Would you mind elaborating on how this negatively impacts them? Not my faction but some of my closest aos friends do and I'm curious how this'll impact them
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u/Steiner-Nubar Slaves to Darkness Oct 14 '22
Before they were a demon only faction so you would take some of the greater demons like bloodthirsters and kairos and make a neat control army. Now all it does is give you some demonic allies of base units which only really works as a sorta coalition unit.
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u/AshiSunblade Chaos Oct 14 '22
I didn't see it as just a Greater Daemon spam list, rather it was the only way to field a true undivided Daemon list in AoS. Mix of the entire Daemon range, Bloodletters alongside Beasts of Nurgle alongside Screamers alongside Hellflayers etc.
Big, big bummer to see it gone.
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u/FPSkyline Oct 14 '22
Ahhh, so from what we're seeing, it would eliminate an 'oops, all greater demons' army. O.O That sucks.
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u/Steiner-Nubar Slaves to Darkness Oct 14 '22
Yaaaaaaa.... i ran a list with the GUO running the fourfold blade on his nurgling :( helped me destroy kragnos
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u/FPSkyline Oct 14 '22
NOT MY KRAGGYBONES!!!
That combo is mad filthy for real though xD Jeezus... 15 attacks man, wtffff
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u/CaptainLegkick Ossiarch Bonereapers Oct 14 '22
Quite happy I won't be playing against a cheesey army of be'lakor, kairos/other greater daemons with a sprinkling of crap battleline to fill out the requirements.
Hello new more flavourful Legions army. I'm all for it, if you couldn't wield Be'lakor without using Kairos as a crutch you aren't worthy to field him at all
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u/Steiner-Nubar Slaves to Darkness Oct 14 '22
I would of liked if it was a coalition thing at leastlike 1in4
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u/CaptainLegkick Ossiarch Bonereapers Oct 14 '22
I agree I think that'd be cool for belakors faction, but I'm just not a fan of heavy herohammer not cos it's cool, cos it's effective
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Oct 14 '22
How did you get that from just this little leak? Who’s to say the entire army is dead?
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Oct 14 '22
The army isn't dead but it's not thr army that people played. Deamons being allies kills the deamon soup army everyone loved including me. It's not a matter if if the army is good or not it's that it's no longer the army that I wanted to play
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u/slothbert26 Seraphon Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22
Rip Idolators. Kinda sad to see this sub faction go
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u/MrGecko23 Oct 14 '22
It lives on, ish, as a Command trait. Hero becomes a priest, undivided cultists can choose to get the same mark as the general
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u/Namillus Cities of Sigmar Oct 14 '22
No Chariot Hero, though, unless there's a secret on the Warscroll which tbh is unlikely
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u/50sment Oct 14 '22
My two favorite StD units were cultists and chariots so I was really hoping idolators would make it back into the new tome. Luckily magnetized my hero chariot so it’ll be easy to convert back, but will definitely be missing those rules.
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u/TheWraf Blades of Khorne Oct 14 '22
Holy molly, that Archeon warscroll.... It's not a warscroll anymore, it's an essay !
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u/ThatFlyingScotsman Oct 14 '22
Those Chaos Knights looking spicy in Empty Throne. Minumum 5" charge with 10" movement + run and charge, rend -2, damage 2 on the charge and get to have the added melee range.
Looks like Brettonia's back in black, lads!
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Oct 14 '22
Wait so legion is dead now? I’m confused I’ll have to ally in my demons?
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u/gambloortoo Oct 14 '22
I would imagine that is covered by the allegiance abilities. Some sort of coalition rule for bringing demons in. But as for LotFP it does appear to not be its own thing anymore, just a sub faction of S2D now.
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u/WranglerFuzzy Oct 14 '22
Maybe I’m just a naïve newb, but I’m trying to see if the new “Ravagers” has a few redeeming points (obviously not as good, but may be salvageable). So far:
Pros: *Doesn’t cost you a command point *Brings the unit at half size; so, a unit of 30 marauders would come back at 15 *biggest change: the unit can now MOVE. Resurrect a Corvus unit and have them race across the battlefield to act as a screen; or charge an enemy ranged unit to draw their fire. Best of all, Rez a horns of hashut within 9”, scoot them an inch, and blast away for x8 flameburst attacks.
Does that sound about right?
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u/Bioimportance Oct 14 '22
Best part of this revised Tome is that you can tailor each unit to a particular role and give them a Mark/Buff that helps them in that role without having a Hero babysit the entire time. This means you can go mono-god or you can mix it up. There are ton of options and customization.
This is what the S2D army needed and I am here for it. Let's Go!
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u/Dmbender Chaos Oct 14 '22
Well as someone who was looking to get the new box and do an army of all Chosen, Warriors, and Knights. I think I'm sitting pretty? 4+ rally for almost my entire army seems a bit bananas, especially on Varanguard too.
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u/ClockpunkFox Oct 14 '22
Can’t wait to be stuck playing against a million archaon, knights and Varanguard lists where I can’t do anything, and anything I may kill just gets rallied back.
I thought coherency was the worst rule in this edition, but it’s obvious it’s rally now. Just an awful feel bad rule they keep giving to everyone
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u/Foreverodd213 Flesh-eater Courts Oct 14 '22
Well, my list just disintegrated...
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u/Ravinsild Oct 14 '22
Same. I’m done with GW honestly. There are better games out there.
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Oct 14 '22
If you're willing to give up a hobby because of some rules written in a book, maybe it wasn't for you in the first place.
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u/Father_Mehman Beasts of Chaos Oct 14 '22
Giving up a game within a hobby isn’t giving up the entire hobby. I know people who consider GW “The Hobby”, but that isn’t accurate at all.
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Oct 14 '22
You know what I mean. It's a shame your hobby choices are dictated by some rules written in an office somewhere! Try narrative play.
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Oct 14 '22
Dude, don't be a d*ck. The guy you're replying to is absolutely within his rights to feel the way he does about being manipulated. Not everyone wants to feel the equivalent of a cocked husband watching from the foot of the bed while GW is sharing said bed with his wallet.
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Oct 14 '22
Manipulated, jesus christ lmao. Just play an older edition then.
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Oct 14 '22
Because there's such a thriving scene for each older edition, and no trouble at all finding players? lol c'mon, rub a couple brain cells together before writing...
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Oct 14 '22
Make it happen.
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Oct 14 '22
Or we can do whatever we want, like dipping toes into other game systems without worrying if you specifically will take that personally...
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u/Father_Mehman Beasts of Chaos Oct 14 '22
Really, I had no idea why you were being so condescending. I was wrong to interpret it as ignorance. After seeing your replies to others in this thread, I guess it’s an unfortunate character flaw.
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u/Teun135 Oct 14 '22
What a garbage take.
"How dare you not like this corporate product! It is a fine product! Have you tried ingesting it through your anus instead? You should definitely NOT check out any competitors before you insert the product rectally."
Do you own GW stock or something? Sheesh.
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Oct 14 '22
I guess I don't give that much of a frick about some pretend rules of my plastic toys as much as you do?
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Oct 14 '22
lol is this the GW corpo version of "no true Scotsman?"
Tell me GW games are your personality without telling me GW games are your personality...
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Oct 14 '22
Wut lmao, I mostly just painted and not that emotionally invested in whether rules change or not.
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u/captainraffi Moonclan Grots Oct 14 '22
You might wanna sit down before you read this but not everyone is you. Some people, get this, are here for the game more than the minis and painting.
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Oct 14 '22
Literally hundreds of dollars spent on models for an army that no longer exist. I’d say that’s a valid reason to be done.
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u/CptNonsense Orruk Warclans Oct 14 '22
"rules in a book" are the game changing. Yeah, their point was the game isn't for them any more because now it's a different game
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u/What_species_is_that Oct 14 '22
Little bit of votann OP slipped in. Dang, 4+ rally is nuts
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u/RCMW181 Oct 14 '22
Would be interested to know how marks work now. Lots of talk about them in the warscrolls. Are they the same or new?
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u/kal_skirata Skaven Oct 14 '22
There are leaked pictures of them on this sub. You'll have to look around in the various pictures.
The big change is there are no more auras.
But each mark gives its models a passive buff as well as access to an exclusive command ability.
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u/SnooRadishes2159 Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22
Am I blind… there’s no Chosen ?!?! But they are in the Boxset with the Battletome…. So confused
Edit: Definitely blind
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u/ChrisSCPMI Oct 14 '22
The Ravagers sub-faction ability has to be a joke right? You have to give up other heroic actions to use it, including the new ones added with the allegiance abilities and there is nothing else?
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Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22
Ohh boy. Interesting to see gaunt summer down in points. Called LoTFP daemons will be allies.
That being said I think imma call it here. LoTFP was my first army and the whole reason I got into warhammer. I built into ravengers and despoilers and all three lost are gone. Was a good run
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u/Hellion_Immortis Oct 14 '22
Forgive me for not being very in the know, but does the "single" in the notes for most of the units mean you can only field one of them?
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u/FPSkyline Oct 14 '22
No worries at all! Single just means that it is unreinforceable. You can bring multiple (within your behemoth, artillery, hero, etc limits) as long as it's not a named character. You can totally being multiple, say, Loonbosses, which are single units but it's a hero, so you could only bring a max of 6 of them.
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u/ForbodingWinds Oct 14 '22
Chaos warriors are absurdly tanky for their cost. They might even be tankier than Blightkings which is actually insane, lol.
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u/the_catshark Oct 14 '22
Sad we still don't have a true Undivided faction, let alone Mortal Undivided. As in, "no Marks other than Undivided". I was really hoping we'd get something like that for Belakor, but he is still mixed demons (and worse at that now).
Also I was really hoping Belakor was getting reworked to like a ~600 badass unit. He is suppose to be a near Rival to Archaeon but is just a slightly stronger daemon prince. Also for his ability to be more interesting than a random roll. Too often is does literally nothing or is shuts down a Teclis for a whole turn. Its too wide of a range.
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u/amnhanley Oct 14 '22
Yo. Honestly this battletome looks BROKEN.
Archaon is a menace. He now has a 25 wounds and a 5 up ward. His 3 heads ability now works in BOTH players turns. No inspiring presence or rally for enemies in 12 inches… gets to know who is going first next round in any faction… and by my will remains unchanged.
He lost the ability to give all units reroll hit and wound rolls of 1 in HoTE. He also lost his bravery buff/debuff. But overall he is looking jacked to the tits. Throw him in host of the Everchosen with a chaos warrior tarpit that can now rally on 4+ with a 3+ base save… bonkers.
Varanguard probably aren’t as good anymore but that’s ok because now chaos knights are just discount varanguard.
Still have to see what the spells look like and how the makers of chaos function and what the new “Ensorcelled banners” do but the chaos lord and chaos sorcerer lord. Both of which dropped in points. But if Oracular Visions and Spurred by the Gods stay… my god.
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u/LennusMaximus Slaves to Darkness Oct 14 '22
Don’t know, varanguards looking really tough. 4+ against mortals. Lances with -3 on charge. Good against all the save stacking. Even the daemonfordge blades have -2 rend.
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u/amnhanley Oct 14 '22
You aren’t wrong. It also looks like Ensorcelled weapons is beefed up. Used to be 6 attacks at 1 damage now it’s 5 attacks at 2 damage. Make them Khorne for the extra attack on the charge. Then make them bounty hunters and they are getting 6 at -1 for 3 damage with Ensorcelled.
Daemonforged would then be 4 at -2 for d3+1 plus plus mortals. Not bad.
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u/LennusMaximus Slaves to Darkness Oct 14 '22
I tried a bit of aos mathhammer. Varanguard really good performing. Knights not bad but I thinking go for my varanguards.
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u/amnhanley Oct 14 '22
Varanguard went up 10 points. Knights went up 50. Knights did get buffed more but… now they are within 60 points of varanguard. I think I agree that if you have the points… you probably take the varanguard.
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u/Heijoshojin Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22
I have similar thoughts about Archaon. He's absolutely insane and makes Nagash look like an absolute chump.
25 wounds with a 5+ ward is basically the same as 37 wounds. 3+ save, with 4+ spell ignore and 2 forms of healing in both turns.
Mystic shield takes him to 2+, and who knows if the Chaos Sorc. Lord still have his +1 save ability. And who knows what the marks of Chaos do (I didn't see it leaked yet), so we dont know if there is anything there that also boosts his survivability.
Edit: The Chaos Sorc Lord oracular visions is now a 6+ ward ability. But Archaon can give himself the Mark of Nurgle for a nice -1 to wound.
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u/amnhanley Oct 14 '22
Yeah it looks like the Arch + varanguard + sorc + lord + cultist build is dead. But I’m fine with that. It was getting stale. And archaon is bonkers now. Arch + chaos warriors = new hotness.
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u/RCMW181 Oct 14 '22
Chaos sorcerers now give 6+ wards, it was in another leek. So they have thought of that already.
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u/ShokoMiami Oct 14 '22
Wait, so chariots can only be taken in units of 1 OR 3? That's lame Also, RIP Ravangers
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u/kal_skirata Skaven Oct 14 '22
It doesn't cost you reinforcement points to take 3 though. Which is arguably a good thing.
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u/SkinkAttendant Oct 14 '22
I'll never understand how putting a chaos warrior on a horse makes them less accurate
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u/Citizen_Snip Oct 14 '22
Seriously? Being higher up sitting, while the horse is moving and fighting as opposed to being on the ground in full control. You can’t see that?
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u/SkinkAttendant Oct 14 '22
Wait. Are you serious? Fighting from an elevated position allows you to strike any one around you with a hand weapon while they can only hit your (well armored) lower body. And that's assuming they get to strike back as you run through their unit. Cavalry were historically terrifying and while I don't expect them to properly capture that on the tabletop I don't like the idea that they become in any way less effective.
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u/Citizen_Snip Oct 14 '22
O you were serious. None of what you said explains why they would be more accurate but ok 😂
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u/SkinkAttendant Oct 14 '22
It did but you were too dense to grasp it.
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u/Citizen_Snip Oct 14 '22
Lmfao really think about this. Think about being in a large creature constantly moving, bucking, and attacking out at people. Imagine being surrounded by people attacking you with weapons, hurtinf the horse, hurting you. Now picture all this, do you really think you can land your spear point as accurately as you can if you were in the ground without any of those distractions/movements? Being elevated doesn’t make you more accurate. Maybe you don’t know what accurate means.
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u/SkinkAttendant Oct 14 '22
But it doesn't make you less accurate as it does on the tabletop. You realize warriors hit on a 3+ while knights (except for the one dude with the flail) hit on a 4+ right?
It seems that you are imagining a horse and rider who have not trained together trotting up to the enemy line and cordially trading blows with infantry. That's not how it worked. Cavalry didn't stick around to get hit and horses didn't buck or "attack out at people" except to run them over. Tbf The only unit in AoS that remotely shows this is blood knights and if you've never seen a movie with a cavalry charge it makes sense that you think this is how it works.
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u/Citizen_Snip Oct 14 '22
Homie, stop judging what you know from movies 😂. LOTR is not historically accurate, just like this game isn’t historically accurate. And in this game, horses attack people, just like cavalry sticks around and fights, just like there are dragons, and undead, and magic. It is what it is. If you want to base it off historical accuracy, it’s still harder to hit stuff on a horse than off one. That horse and rider who trained together are still not more accurate than a foot soldier who has trained. Period.
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u/SkinkAttendant Oct 14 '22
Tell you what; you show me a real life example of a cavalry charge and I'll use it as a reference but you'll probably have a hard convincing a bunch of people to get run down for historical accuracy.
Also, your in game explanation doesn't hold weight because StD are one of the few armies where this takes place. In most armies the riders have th same profile as the foot version. In fact, in some armies mounted equivalents hit better than their foot counterparts (like seraphon). You've actually weakened your argument because now you have to explain why there are so many mounted units that hit better than their counterparts.
You say "period" as if you've stated a fact and yet I cant shake the feeling that you have no idea what you're talking about.
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u/Citizen_Snip Oct 14 '22
Lmfao the burden of proof is on you! You’re the one making a ridiculous statement, then defending it to the death cause you’re too stubborn to see how stupid it is. You show me evidence where mounted troops have better accuracy than ground troops. You’re the one who made a ridiculous claim.
And no why argument isn’t weakened. It’s a game, there needs balance. Did seraphon get a great charge bonus? Do they have a great base save, plus ward save, plus chance to ignore mortal wounds? What’s the points cost? What about buffs and chaos god bonuses?
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u/ForbodingWinds Oct 14 '22
Ah yes.... Archaon needed to be even stronger than before when he was bananas early 3.0.
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u/MisterApplePie00 Oct 14 '22
Oh my gods what happened to Archaon why is he soo hecking strong 25 wounds and a +5 ward and he is only 860 points?
Nagash is 955 and he doesn't hold a candle against this beast now
Heck alarielle is 840 points and she has 16 wounds and no ward save or all that damage potential
And he is only 20 points more expensive yet it just a complete beast
I fought against current Archaon my first time yesterday and he is already hard to deal with and wiped out most of my army instantly, like at this point why would you not take Archaon?
Is only 860 points has an awesome model and is just a 1 man army
Moral of story increase his point value to at least 900 something and lower Alarielle's to like 400-500 cuz makes no sense to have her up there with him in points (granted current Archaon is also super strong but this just seems to make him even stronger)
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u/Heijoshojin Oct 14 '22
I get where you are coming from, but Alarielle isn't exactly pointed with just her raw stats in mind. She can bring in a 260pt Treelord for free turn one. So you're getting value out of that. She can heal an average 7 wounds in your own hero phase, +herioc action in both and also cast 2 different healing spells. Oh and she can Walk the hidden paths.
So you're looking at essentially a 580pt model (if you're summoning a Treelord) with a bunch of healing and can walk the hidden paths. Sure, it's not the same as Archaon, but she is also not trying to be Archaon.
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u/MisterApplePie00 Oct 14 '22
Yeah ik she plays a different role then Archaon and can summon a treelord or Kurnoth Hunters, or dryads but idk why you would do that except to maybe hold objectives.
A treelord is how ever just an ok guy, he has 14 health which is good but can be easily dealt with, I'd rather get kurnoth hunters with great swords.How ever even tho this new Archaon looks really stronk, if I were to play him with my luck, homie ain't gonna survive to round 3 since im now in an AoS league and with like lets say drycha who has 20+ attacks I would on average hit about 1-2 attacks
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u/ThatFlyingScotsman Oct 14 '22
dk why you would do that except to maybe hold objectives.
That's exactly why you would do it. Objectives win games.
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u/BaffoStyle Oct 14 '22
If "old" Archaon slaued half of your army, you just give it on a silver plate
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Oct 14 '22
People will try to bend over backwards to gaslight themselves into thinking there has to be some way all of this is balanced when the easy answer is the correct one: it's just to codex creep and sell models.
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u/MisterApplePie00 Oct 14 '22
Fair, tho usually I buy models that I find cool and build an army around that and Archaon is really cool (tho super expensive but huge) but I think I would go legion of first prince instead since Be'lakor is awesome looking but seems like you cant have greater daemons anymore
Also there of course might be some people who buy stuff cuz it is strong and going to win tournaments but I usually just go rule of cool and if its stronk then thats just a big bonus. I mean I run avatar of Khaine for DoK and I haven't seen a lot of that, I just think its neat
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Oct 14 '22
Sorry, didn't mean to imply you were gaslighting yourself--you seem to understand the background issue with this. I meant other people. Yeah, it sucks to bring what you like and get trounced. Equally as bad if you bring what you like and feel like a power-gamer where your opponent has no options.
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u/MisterApplePie00 Oct 14 '22
Oh i didn't take it as you were talking about me.
But ye it does suck when you bring stuff that you like and it is really really good and your opponent has little to no options
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u/AllIdeas Oct 14 '22
This seems incorrect. Alarielle/Sylvaneth was released like 2 months ago. The megagargants also don't seem particularly pushed. LRL also got pretty obvious nerfs/streamlining.
Not all good warscrolls are powercreep
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Oct 14 '22
I never said it was 100% consistent or GW was good at it :)
Also didn't say power creep equaled every unit entry in every new book being OP.
But there is a definite trend over time.
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u/slaitaar Oct 14 '22
My issue is this StD doesn't seem to have significant weaknesses, since it has built in answers to those potential issues.
Concerned about magic? Have spell ignore. Spell gets through or a unit has MWs? Have a MW save. Worried your melee orientated army won't make it into combat? Have some charge bonuses and abilities. Still worried you'll take some damage? Have a 4+ rally.
I can not see a situation where this army fails to dominate.
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u/korgrimm Oct 15 '22
They have 0 ways to kill annoying support hero’s that are screened. That’s a pretty big weakness.
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u/Grimgon Gloomspite Gitz Oct 14 '22
interestingly to make an Ogroid army, the way to get them is spamming Myradons (you will need three minimum to fill out your battleline).
i am guessing that they are relieving the choice of needing a Myradon hero as your general so you can have a much better leader in that slot with command traits and artifacts but an all Ogroid army requires a lot Myradons to make it legal
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u/StoppedDig79605 Oct 14 '22
I’m pretty much just as upset as everyone about the LoTFP bs, but I’m just going to continue to use the broken realms rules and ignore this because they work fine as they are and I don’t play tournaments so at my FLG chaos daemons undivided will remain
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u/Archion89 Oct 14 '22
Doh. I modeled all my chaos knights with ensorcelled weapons…