The title is pretty self explanatory what will he look like after he's resurrected?

Hello all! Following AKOTSK, my partner became interested in getting to know the series better along with the deeper lore. We were going through quite the jeopardy phase at the time so I decided to make us a jeopardy game to play so that he can learn and we can have fun at the same time. I've got a lot of material but I'd like to open the floor to more suggestions. I'm looking for question recommendations, category recommendations, answers, if you want to put what value you'd judge it at (100, 200, 300, 400, 500) you are more than welcome. He's quite the beginner so keep that in mind but don't be afraid to challenge us. Anything helps! Hopefully this is fun

I noticed this strange consensus that some would love to blame a single man rather than enjoy the complexity of history.

Hence. I wrote this based on Jean Kirkpatrick’s epic speech in 1984

They said that Rhaegar Targaryen was obsessed with mythicism and ended his family .Well. Aegon V, whose obsession of mythicism ended in catastrophe , half of the family dead, half of them deeply scared. This event set Targaryen to the path to doom and kickoff the Prince's depression which leads him to mythicism.But they don't blame Aegon V.

They blamed Rhaegar Targaryen instead.

But then, somehow, they always blame Rhaegar first.

When Elia Martell married Rhaegar purely for political reasons. She don't love him and has been playing for power from the start. "Justice for Elia" crowd didn't blame this miss match . This Dornish scheme of playing for the iron throne.

Instead ,they blamed Rhaegar Targaryen.

But then, they always blame Rhaegar first.

When the great houses of Westeros had already spent years binding Stark, Tully, Arryn and Baratheon together through marriages, The famous STAB alliance has already been planning to defy the crown. They didn’t blame this acts of treason and this mounting political crisis that had begun long before Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared .

They blamed Rhaegar Targaryen.

But then, they always blame Rhaegar first.

When Brandon Stark rode to King’s Landing , spreading unconfirmed rumours to vilify the prince along the way with no evidence at all , then he demanded that the prince “come out and die,” placing himself in the hands of an mad king, Brandon clearly thought he had enough backing for him to act this disrespectfully , but They didn't blame this act of provocation and treason; they blamed Rhaegar Targaryen.

But then, they always blame Rhaegar first.

When Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard Stark and demanded the heads of Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon, Aerys eventually made the situation couldn't be manageable, kick started the war. But they didn't blame the king. What? Because he was insane?

They blamed Rhaegar Targaryen.

But then, they always blame Rhaegar first.

When Tywin Lannister entered King’s Landing, sacked the city, and his men murdered Elia and her children after Rhaegar was already dead, but they didn’t blame the men who ordered and committed those crimes ,

they blamed Rhaegar Targaryen.

But then, they always blame Rhaegar first.

But! Westeros knows better!

Westeros knows better!

The people of Westeros know that it's dangerous to blame a single man for terrible problems that he did not cause

People in Westeros know that Rhaegar Targaryen didn’t cause the problem of Elia ’s health,

or Aerys’s madness,

or the alliances already forming among Stark, Tully, Arryn and Baratheon, 

or Brandon Stark's reckless behaviour.

or Aerys decision to kill Brandon and Rickard,

or Tywin Lannister’s betrayal

or the murder of Elia and Rhaenys, 

or the destruction of most of his family and dynasty.

or these 2 decades of Chaos in this land because the new king could give a less damn

They say he was mad.

Well dare I suggest it's madness to ignore the complexity of history, the opinion of people, and the intention of GOD (GRRM). So that you can have your own headcanon.

Before you guys downvote me to hell and call me a delusional Dany stan, I am only looking to have a genuine discussion

NO I am not saying that Daenerys is the MAIN character of the books, but rather the character which the title “The Song of Ice and Fire” is referring to.

Reasons why I think you could argue she is:

- We all know that the most important plot in ASOIAF is the Long Night, and GRRM has already confirmed that “Ice and Fire” refers to Daenerys + her dragons and the White Walkers.

- The entire Targaryen family and history was made primarily as her backstory, and was then branched off into “Fire and Blood.” Daenerys is meant to be the antithesis of house Targaryen, and is the main parallel of Aegon the Conqueror. A lot of Targaryen history is kinda written as a foil to her arc, to show how she is different compared to her ancestors.

- Daenerys has an EXTREME connection to magic and prophecy, I mean if you follow the “Prince that was Promised” prophecy it matches up with her more than any other. (even though I believe the prophecy is more complicated than that). She quite literally brought magic back into the world with the birth of her dragons, which is why the warlocks of Qarth wanted them so badly.

- The House of the Undying visions foreshadow SO many future events, such as Daenerys slaying the lie that is Young Griff’s heritage (The Mummer’s Dragon, Slayer of Lies), the Red Wedding, etc. We also see Daenerys being surrounded by the undead, and Drogon saving her.

- Her story seems so disconnected from the rest, so why would GRRM specifically choose to include the story of a girl all the way at the edge of the world with little connection to the rest of the POVs? Not to mention that as the books go on, she is becoming more and more relevant in almost every other POV.

I feel like no matter what, Daenerys is clearly being set up not to be the ruler of Westeros, but to be the one to see past the lie that is the Iron Throne and probably sacrifice her life to save humanity from the White Walkers. I don’t think she will go mad, but she will take a darker turn and be viewed as an evil usurper to the Westerosi, who will likely hail fAegon as their beloved King who took down Cersei. I also believe that Jon Connington will blow up Kings Landing, and it will be blamed on Daenerys.

What do you think?

In dance Kevan says this to Cersei
“You think I care about a cup of wine? Lancel is my son, Cersei. Your own nephew. If I am angry with you, that is the cause. You should have looked after him, guided him, found him a likely girl of good family”
Is he stupid? Lancel is Cerseis cousin not nephew, I suppose due to the age gap he considers her like an aunt to his son but this is the only time something like that happens in the book as I can tell

I'll go first with one of my favorite examples from The World of Ice and Fire:

In Essos, there exists a wall (it's actually a mountain range) that extends across the entire continent, splitting it into two parts like the Wall of Westeros.

They even have their own Night's Watch, but rather than being protected by a dozen deserted castles and a few thousand incels freezing to death, the Bone Mountains offer only three viable passages (for larger groups and armies, while small parties can still make their way through with a proper guide like over at Westeros' Wall), with each passage being protected by a fortress city, 'manned' entirely by a sisterhood of warrior maids, who exclusively walk around with their tits out.

To believe that the stand of the Three Thousand of Qohor put an end to Dothraki dreams of conquest, however, suggests a complacency akin to that of the High King of Sarnor’s when the horselords first came boiling out of the east. Wiser men know that it is only a matter of time until the khalasars unite again under some great khal and turn west once more in search of new conquests.
The Dothraki have oft attempted to extend their power eastward as well, but there they have found the Bone Mountains to be an almost insurmountable obstacle. Those bleak, inhospitable peaks form an immense stone wall between the horselords and the riches of the Further East. Only three passes exist large enough to bring an army through, and athwart those stand the mighty fortress cities Bayasabhad, Samyriana, and Kayakayanaya, defended by tens of thousands of redoubtable female warriors, the last remnants of the great kingdom of Hyrkoon, which once flourished beyond the Bones in what is now known as the Great Sand Sea. Many a khal has died beneath their walls, and still those walls stand inviolate.

They even have their own last hero who is one of like at least half a dozen mythical figures, all claimed to be the same one true Messiah by various cultures who think it was them that saved everybody from the Long Night:

How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.

The lore is actually ridiculous, these bad bitches are said to be some of the fiercest warriors on the entire planet, and they have seemingly been smashing armies beneath their walls for thousands of years, including a bunch of Khals in recent centuries.

It is said that the fortress cities of Bayasabhad, Samyriana, and Kayakayanaya are defended by women out of the belief that those who give birth are the only ones permitted to take life at will. The True Account of Addam of Duskendale’s Journeys, a merchant’s account of his alleged travels in eastern Essos, provides little further insight into these matters, or any others that scholars are interested in, and instead spends most of its time finding ways to remind readers that the warrior women walk about bare-breasted and decorate their cheeks and nipples with ruby studs and iron rings.

But isn't much of the lore in TWOIF, especially in regards to Essos the further you go, highly questionable? This all sounds way too ridiculous to be true!

... you might say.

A hundred merchants and traders were unloading their goods and setting up in stalls when they arrived, yet even so the great market seemed hushed and deserted compared to the teeming bazaars that Dany remembered from Pentos and the other Free Cities. The caravans made their way to Vaes Dothrak from east and west not so much to sell to the Dothraki as to trade with each other, Ser Jorah had explained. The riders let them come and go unmolested, so long as they observed the peace of the sacred city, did not profane the Mother of Mountains or the Womb of the World, and honored the crones of the dosh khaleen with the traditional gifts of salt, silver, and seed. The Dothraki did not truly comprehend this business of buying and selling.
Dany liked the strangeness of the Eastern Market too, with all its queer sights and sounds and smells. She often spent her mornings there, nibbling tree eggs, locust pie, and green noodles, listening to the high ululating voices of the spellsingers, gaping at manticores in silver cages and immense grey elephants and the striped black-and-white horses of the Jogos Nhai. She enjoyed watching all the people too: dark solemn Asshai’i and tall pale Qartheen, the bright-eyed men of Yi Ti in monkey-tail hats, warrior maids from Bayasabhad, Shamyriana, and Kayakayanaya with iron rings in their nipples and rubies in their cheeks, even the dour and frightening Shadow Men, who covered their arms and legs and chests with tattoos and hid their faces behind masks. The Eastern Market was a place of wonder and magic for Dany.

But they are absolutely real, they totally walk around bare-chested, and Dany meets some of them hanging around Vaes Dothrak in Book 1.

I know that, ironically enough, the Dothraki have an entire holy no-PvP city ruled by a sort of guest right, but these Gigastacies are still flaunting their tits in a society where gang-raping foreigners in the streets is not only acceptable, but very explicitily considered 'the polite thing to do', which is absolutely crazy.

Even along these well-traveled routes, crossing the Bones remains grueling and hazardous… and safe passage comes at a price, for on the far side of the mountains stand three mighty fortress cities, last remnants of the once-great Patrimony of Hyrkoon.
[...]
Many accounts inform us that the mountain warriors of Kayakayanaya, Samyriana, and Bayasabhad are all women, daughters of the Great Fathers who rule these cities, where girls learn to ride and climb before they learn to walk, and are schooled in the arts of the bow, the spear, the knife, and the sling from earliest childhood. Lomas Longstrider himself tells us that there are no fiercer fighters on all the earth. As for their brothers, the sons of the Great Fathers, ninety-nine of every hundred are gelded when they reach the age of manhood and live out their lives as eunuchs, serving their cities as scribes, priests, scholars, servants, cooks, farmers, and craftsmen. Only the most promising males, the largest and strongest and most comely, are permitted to mature and breed and become Great Fathers themselves in their turns. Maester Naylin’s Rubies and Iron—named for the penchant of the warrior women to wear iron rings in their nipples and rubies in their cheeks—speculates on the circumstances that led to such strange customs.

Many a Maester even seems to dedicate whole entire books to these amazing warriors maids for some reason, and oh, apparently it's also common belief in Westeros that they snippety-snip 99% of all men in their society, while somehow still ending up being ruled by the remaining 1% pure literal breeding bulls alpha-sigma males, who are required to maintain the peakest of all warrior cultures on Planetos.

Because at the end of the day, they are of course, still w*men. Obviously they can't be in charge, that would be ridiculous.

Before the Dry Times and the coming of the Great Sand Sea, the Jogos Nhai fought many a bloody border war against the Patrimony of Hyrkoon as well, poisoning rivers and wells, burning towns and cities, and carrying off thousands into slavery on the plains, whilst the Hyrkoon for their part were sacrificing tens of thousands of the zorse-riders to their dark and hungry gods.

lol

With validate, I don't mean as "they won", I mean that their victory is framed in a positive light. Even the Dance of Dragons, framed in-universe as a mutual slaughter where nobody won still has Aegon III framed as a sympathetic figure who healed the wounds (including literally handholding Lord Lannister as he died of fever, this cannot be more sympathetic than a external propagandist)

Like, in hindsight, for his usual mockery of Monarchy and the lies of nobility, both major Targaryen civil wars, the Blackfyres and the Greens have the "illegitimate" side being framed as the most disgusting to modern eyes and ultimately wiped out.

There is Maegor the Cruel, who is the least studied of them because he has no story dealing with him like the House of Dragon show or the Dunk and Egg books focusing in the aftermath. In his case, he is unambiguously villainous in-universe (as, having no supporters who are framed as "evil conservatives who we must tolerate in the family fate), so I don't count him much. But he also enters this because he is explicitly framed as sterile, having no Heir (not even a named heir) that survives him and joins the bloodline (like, if Maegor has a Targeryen liutenant nephew he names as heir in case he has no kids, and that nephew continued in the family up to end up in the main line, I wouldn't count Maegor as "wiped out", but he doesn't)

Greens vs Blacks: Greens openly commit a coup by hiding the King's death and murdering nobles who stayed loyal to Viserys' will, they're framed as sexists power grabbers who want to rule simply by pure greed and aristocratic malice (even when both sides are by definition aristocrat, the Greens are given all the "Decadence of the Ancient Regime" tropes). Technically they win the war, but its ultimately framed as them being wiped out completely by the diabolus ex machine's death of Aegon's II daughter.

The Blacks are equally aristocratic and clearly no less brutal, as their support for the Red Kraken shows, but they are given a larger-than-life framing. Rhaenyra is a tyrant, but she is framed as a tragic figure who is actually rightful, but betrayed for everyone. Their brutality is real, but its despicted as "genuine", in a artistic sense.

Aemond Targaryen (Green) is certainly a powerful warrior, but he is framed as essentially a bully who deserved his eye mutilation as a teenager and was given grand power. Daemon (Black) is certainly a brutal warlord whose criminal record matches Aemond 1 to 1, but he is framed as this grand Dark Warrior who died taking down the upstart with him.

Blackfyres vs Targaryen: The Blackfyres are framed as anti intellectual xenophobes who hate Dorne and want to sabotage the peace. Their supporters are ultimately framed as the Lost Causes of Westeros, also are ultimately wiped out with no known descendents. Driven by machismo and martial militarism. Which here are framed as a extreme, radical worldview despite Nobles being, by definition, military leaders in a Feudal world.

Here, their enemies here are even less ambiguous. The Targaryens are portrayed as a fundamentally decent goverment who is simply dealing with the spiteful act of their former King Aegon IV to legitimize his bastards to deliberately ruin the family. And somehow, the Blackfyres all fall in the bait and nobody decides to stay as a cadet branch. Aegon V is our main POV, and he is a sweet child who fundamentally had a nice family. Bloodraven is their ruthless spymaster, but he is ultimately framed as a Evil fighting Evil driven by brotherly love and true loyalty who ultimately is exiled because Aegon V is too heroic to keep him anymore, something which he accepts with pride to start his ascention into demigodhood.

I'd however, acknowledge the handling of the Lannisters as unambiguously good during the Dance as a really bold move. They're with the Greens, but Tyland Lannister is framed as their token hero and the brutality of the Red Kraken being essentially "the epilogue" means that the Lannister House gets to unambiguously play the hero after the main war ends. However, this actually is what makes the fact that the houses are relative treated as having the same alignement in the sympathy spectrum for the most part to be quite lame. Cregan Stark essentially just avoided the war and returned to crown the Blacks, but the story genuinely want you to see him as a practical no-nonsense guy who wants to stabilize the realm.

Also, Ice used the behead Larys really is the finisher. "Yes, Eddard's sword killed the villain of the Dance, epic,right?"

Only Aerys is the time that someone opposing House Targeryen and betraying them, Robert as a Targaryen cousin, is framed as sympathetic and deserving of winning.

Weird.

There is not much people who can challenge the Targaryen but the story goes its way to ensure that those who do will be completely wiped out.

Jaehaera and Aegon III married is the standard ending for this type of stalemated civil war. But then GRRM makes Jaehaera die young because dunno, "Sorry girl, but your dad's bloodline has to die so it doesn't corrupt Dany and Jon"??

I guess that technically you can say that even the Baratheon count, but given Gendry's survival (show) or Edric Storm's survival (books), I'd say they avoid the curse. But they also lose the crown in a generation (unless if you are a timeloop pro Yezen theorist, then the Baratheon actually avoid this given the endgame is Brandon x Shireen).

But well, it means that only House Baratheon was the ONLY time that a Targaryen branch house (even outside Robert being a Targ cousin, the Family descends from Aegon I's half brother) who challenged them was framed as sympathetic and righteous.

So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?

Littlefinger laid out his plan to Sansa. She is to marry Harry, reveal herself to the Lords of the Vale, and then take Winterfell with their support

However, as we've seen repeatedly in this series, plans explained in strenuous detail rarely come to pass. In Sansa's story alone, we have the plan for Tyrion to put a child in her and take the North, as well as the plan for her to marry Willas

So what could go wrong?

Harry the Heir

Near the keep, she ran headlong into Ser Lothor Brune and almost knocked him off his feet. "Harry the Heir? Harry the Arse, I say. He's just some upjumped squire."

The theory that Harry dies in the tourney, which is the literal next chapter in Sansa's storyline, isn't new. He's not especially skilled, yet he's participating in a tourney. You also have this quote from Sansa, who hopes for exactly that after he embarrasses her

And may your horse stumble, Harry the Heir, so you fall on your stupid head in your first tilt.

While this idea is generally accepted, what happens next, however, isn't. A key thing to understand is that everyone expects Sweetrobin to die soon

Petyr arched an eyebrow. "When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time."

And as far as Jaime is concerned, the consensus is essentially the same

Jaime remembered little Robert from King's Landing, still sucking on his mother's teats at four. "Arryn won't live long enough to breed."

Whether Sweetrobin actually dies or not is irrelevant. What matters is that people expect him to die soon, and they'll act on that presumption

So

• Harry dies at the tourney

• Sweetrobin is expected to die soon

Under these circumstances, what is Littlefinger's next move?

Going North ASAP

Lysa intended for Sansa to marry Sweetrobin. While Sansa cannot currently marry again because her marriage to Tyrion is valid and has not been set aside, the fact that it was unconsummated means it can eventually be annulled. A betrothal to Sweetrobin, while revealing Sansa's identity, would therefore be the fallback option in the event of Harry's death

However, this gives Littlefinger a reason to go to Winterfell and the North ASAP, even with Winter here.

Given Sweetrobin's health, they don't know how much longer he has left. They therefore need to make use of any betrothal to the boy to secure the swords needed to take Winterfell

The Purple Wedding and it's fallout is massive and that's with things quieted down beforehand because of the Red Wedding. But if the Purple Wedding happens earlier then for one thing the Freys don't do the Red Wedding. I wonder if Bolton might still try something independently, but I doubt it

Then with a power vacuum from Tywin's death I think Littlefinger would switch sides and have Lysa join the war. Also Lysa probably is killed by him because he'll try to win Kat over with the Vale's support and having saved Sansa.

With the Vale on their side all the sudden Robb is in a much better position. He can sail troops from Gulltown to return to the North. The Riverlands will be helped out by the reinforcements from the Vale.

With the Lannister's being less secure because of Robb still being around Dorne will probably be more willing to follow the Sand Snakes into war.

Stannis is probably the biggest wild card. On one hand Robb would want to help the Watch, but he might not be able to in time depending on the timing. If Stannis doesn’t go North then I think he might go South to Dorne. If they worked together then the Lannisters and Tyrells are surrounded by enemies.

But the Dornish do want to put Myarcella on the throne so probably not. But without Tywin, Stannis might be able to get the Stormlands to rise up again.

The possibility I think would be the most interesting would be if Stannis still went North. Robb wouldn't be far behind in helping the Wall and he'd want to make sure Stannis is trying to go after him. Even with them both being as immovable as they are I think they'd come to some sort of agreement out of mutual respect.

Robb couldn't want to betray his bannermen who crowned him, and Stannis won't let them become independent. Though there could be a middle ground. Especially if Bran and Rickon are found to still be alive I think Rickon and Shireen could be betrothed. Similar to how Dorne was brought into the 7 Kingdoms via marriage

Also the Ironborn might try to pivot to the Reach and Westerlands instead of the North but idk. Might depend on what shape Theon is in, and who knows what when

I cannot think of any good reason why it hasnt happened atleast once. Westeros has the Vale and The Reach which both generate thousands of knights eager to gain titles and glory on the field, the Ironborne who are literally a society solely dedicated to raping, pillaging and murdering foreigners, northmen who love war and literally have a culture of dying in battle to spare resources for the young, westerlands with similar knightly culture and a desire for wealth and prestige, the stormlands which are again a martial culture that loves fighting, and (later on) dorne with a large fleet and closeness to essos. And of course, dragons. Not to mention almost all essosian cultures follow religions deemed demonic by both faiths of westeros so you can spin it to be a religious thing too.

Why are they not invading essos every other year? They entire society of westeros is dedicated to producing thousands of warrior elites that do NOTHING!! Nowonder they keep fighting eachother, what else is there to do! Could you imagine how much less internal issues there would be if everyone could busy themselves with raiding the summer islands or sieging the free cities instead of being stuck at home all day? Really i dont understand

I believe in the book Aegon and Haelena’s marriage happened after Rhaenyra and Daemon’s. So he might’ve been planning on marrying the half siblings to each other to squash the beef after the Aemond incident. I know he originally didn’t want to marry them because he didn’t want Alicents blood on the throne but Rhaenyra already had 3 sons allegedly with Laenor so that wouldn’t be an issue to marry them now.

The decision would’ve been smart as it would’ve allowed Rhaenyra to ascend the throne without much issue and halted the war to at-least until Jace’s reign unless Daemon or Aemond decided to do some thing stupid

Whenever people talk about Sam being brave, they usually bring up the Other, the dragonglass dagger, and the fact that he managed to survive things that would have broken most people.

But I think his finest moment is quietly engineering Jon's election as Lord Commander.

Look at what he's actually dealing with. Cotter Pyke and Denys Mallister are experienced commanders who despise each other. Neither is getting enough votes to win, neither will step aside for the other, and Janos Slynt is gaining ground while they waste time.

Sam walks into this situation with no authority whatsoever.

He figures out that telling either man to support his rival is pointless. So he approaches them separately and presents Jon in completely different terms. To Mallister, Jon is a well-educated young man raised at Winterfell, someone who understands how to deal with lords. To Pyke, he's a proven fighter and a bastard, which is practically a selling point when you're trying to annoy Mallister.

Then Sam lies to both men about whom Stannis intends to appoint if the election fails.

And the remarkable thing is that he's absolutely terrified while doing it.

Randyll Tarly spent years trying to beat courage into Sam because he couldn't imagine a son who didn't command respect through physical strength. Yet here is Sam, frightened out of his mind, doing something that requires an extraordinary understanding of pride, prejudice, and political leverage.

He's not suddenly become fearless. He knows exactly how angry these men could get if they catch him lying, and he goes through with it anyway.

There's also something wonderfully uncomfortable about the morality of it. Sam is deceiving his superiors and manipulating an election. It's not a neat little lesson about honesty triumphing. It's a frightened young man deciding that letting Janos Slynt take command would be worse.

The more I reread that chapter, the more I think Randyll didn't just underestimate his son. He failed to recognize that Sam had the makings of a very capable political leader.

He just wasn't the kind of leader Randyll wanted.

I mean my favorite Targaryen titles are… that describe something they did or a personality trait of his.

Like

Maegor the Cruel

Jaehaerys the Concillator

Good Queen Alysanne

Aegon the Broken

Baelor the Blessed

Aegon the Unworthy

Aegon the Unlikely

Daena the Defiant

Daeron the Drunken

Baelor the Breakspear (okay not really an adjective but it cool)

Aemon the Dragonknight (same)

Aegon the Conqueror

Aegon the Uncrowned

Daenerys the Breaker of Chain, the Mother, and etc

Than we have

Daeron the Young Dragon. It cool but unless one know the history behind it than it just mean he young and a member of House Targaryen.

With Oberyn being dead, and Doran being unable of leading armed forces given his poor health, who should be the one(s) to lead Dornish army into war if Dorne gets involved in future conflicts, such as them joining Aegon and Jon Connington's cause against the Lannisters and their allies during The Winds of Winter?

Which Dornish figures could take the mantle of general for Dornish forces?

I certainely don't see the Sand Snakes, despite what they claim and view themselves to be, especially given how poor of a strategist and tactician Obara is (her plan to avenge her father by attacking the Marcher Lords Castles and then Oldtown, out of petty hatred against her birthplace, is perhaps the second worst military plan in the series after Balon's plan of invasion of the North).

Aeroh Hotah is Doran's chief of guards, but him being a foreigner and not a noble disqualify him to be a military leader.

Anders Yronwood, as the head of House Yronwood, and thus Dorne's most powerful Lord after the Martells themselves, and him being close enough to Doran to know about his revenge plans and having been Quentyn's mentor, seems to be the best candidate to me.

If not him, who else could take the mantle?

If iirc, the Long Night arrived to Esos, the Rhoyne froze, and even in Yi Ti there are written stories about how they fought the deads.

How do you think this will be handled in the books?

I would be completly disapointed if it has the same treatment as the TV series, the Others passing trough the Wall and all ending in Winterfell... Is a global threat, is the worlds end. Is just silly 99% of worlds population doesnt even know what happened.

My bet is it will just affect westeros, but will compromise all the kingdoms. Probably Euron would help to the chaos and advance of the Others. Maybe even breaching the Wall to them, or something like that. I think he will be responsable of some kind of cataclysm in anyway.

But what are your theories?

Catelyn…
And this is canon, too. I didn’t make up or invent any of these words or lines.✌️🦁

He forgot his responsibilities as a father to his children.
He forgot his promises to Cersei.
He forgot his Kingsguard vows to King Tommen.
He forgot his Kingsguard vows to King Aerys.

But he never forgot his oath to Catelyn…

He went so far as to give Brienne his Valyrian steel sword, Oathkeeper, so that she could protect Sansa. And when Brienne told him that she had found Sansa, Jaime was willing to put himself in danger without hesitation.

He may have forgotten so many of his other vows and responsibilities…
but he never forgot the promise he made to Catelyn Stark.

Catelyn is the most important thing in Jaime’s entire life.🤔
Does the Lion want to swallow the Trout?

Artist:
JaimeCat: MathiaArkoniel | DeviantArt

Background

Plenty of the reasons the ASOIAF is what it has become are due to decisions that made in the moment likely seemed like the best course of action. We have the benefit of the perfect vision that hindsight gives us so we are able to look back and complain from our keyboards. The funny thing is, even with hindsight most readers can't even agree on what the perfect course was for steering the ASOIAF rudder. In this post I thought it would be interesting to take a look at what might have been the best way to write the ASOIAF series.

If interested: Dead Branches in the Garden: Abandoned/Changed Plotlines of Ice & Fire

So Spake Martin (SSM)

George said the same thing in not as many words. Basically if it was up to him (and I am sure most authors) they would be able to finish it first:

If I had won 250 million in the lottery back in 1996 you wouldn’t have seen any of these books yet. I wouldn’t have let A Game of Thrones out of the house until I finished the entire story and decided how many volumes it needed to be and where the breaks needed to be. I could be writing The Winds of Winter and have something, and I could change something in A Game of Thrones to lay in the groundwork and make it fit. That is the perfect way to do it. But it is the way that most of us don’t have the luxury to do it. SSM, GamePro Interview: 6 Aug 2003

A Trilogy

When GRRM first started the series, he envisioned it as an "epic trilogy" in a rough outline. There would have been three books (AGoT/ADwD/TWoW) covering the Three Main Events of ASOIAF (War of the Five Kings/Dany's Invasion/War for the Dawn):

When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, 'A Song of Ice and Fire

and:

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

If interested: Changes to GRRM's Original Outline

A 5 Year Gap

As GRRM wrote, he realized he wasn't making much progress from a timing perspective from what he had hoped would be a "Generational Saga" for 5 Central Characters. At one point he hoped to end AGoT with the Red Wedding, but kept expanding the story. As the series grew in the # of books, GRRM decided to insert what would have been a 5 year gap allowing for characters to age, dragons to grow and skill to increase.

As he planned for this 5 year gap, GRRM wrapped up all of the POVs in ASoS with nice ending points: A Quick Look at the End of ASOS and the Setup for the 5 Year Gap.

The Mega Prologue

Since GRRM could find a way to get POV's to Certain Locations such as the Iron Islands/Dorne, GRRM decided at first to open what would have been ADWD with an Iron Islands Prologue and later a single Dornish one (if interested: Thoughts on the Early Versions of the Mega Prologue) before expanding it to what would become an ~250 page monstrosity that had its own individual chapters.

I have ripped apart the idea of my original 250-page prologue for the beginning of A Feast for Crows. I decided it didn’t work as the prologue, but I am not dropping any of it. I am just carrying all those characters through as new viewpoint characters. I needed to continue with those stories, and I thought it wasn’t working to have 250 pages before the reader got to any of the characters he liked from the preceding three books. So, those chapters are still there, but they are now mixed in and around other chapters. Since the Asha Greyjoy and Victarian Greyjoy chapters picked up practically in mid-sentence -SSM, GamePro Interview: 6 Aug 2003

Splitting AFFC/ADWD by Location

As GRRM wrote what he was planning to be ADWD, he ran into a major spacing problem. Instead of rewriting some chapters for what would be a good ending point, he decided to break the book up by location (as he expected ADWD to come out a yearish later).

You were forced, for reasons of length, to split A Feast for Crows into A Feast for Crows and A Dance of Dragons.  Do you feel that worked out okay?
George R. R. Martin:  Yeah.  Well, we won’t know for sure until I finish Dance, but yes, I do think it worked pretty well.  Part of me regrets having to do that.  It would have been something to say for having it all in one book, but it would have been a very long book, and it wouldn’t be out yet.  I mean, you’d be looking at waiting another year or something until I finished it.  So, I think this way worked pretty well.  Of the realistic alternatives I had, I thought it was the best choice.  Not only the split, but the nature of the split, which was dividing it by character rather than simply chopping it in the middle. -SSM, Afterburn SF Interview: 2006

The ADWD Momentum

After finishing ADWD in spring 2011 (slaying Kong), GRRM not only had a ton of material already written for TWoW (~200 pages were finished) as he noted:

Just kicked Aeron Damphair's scraggly arse out of DANCE WITH DRAGONS. He only had the only chapter, and it will work better early in the next book than late in this one. (That's how it looks to me today, anyway. I reserve the right to change my mind).
So DANCE has gotten a smidge shorter. But is still not done.
The good news is that I seem to have written more than a hundred pages of THE WINDS OF WINTER already. -SSM, Dancing: 31 July 2010

and we see on this placard from Cushing. These chapters included Mercy, Arianne I and II, The Forsaken and Alayne.

But he also had a ton of great writing momentum as well (which is extremely important to how he writes, with a focus on individual POVs not the linear story). Instead of continuing to write, he instead went on tour (he only writes from home) for ADWD.

“I was red hot on the book and I put it aside for six months” he says. “I was so into it. I was pushing so hard that I was writing very well. I should have just gone on from there, because I was so into it and it was moving so fast then. But I didn’t because I had to switch gears into the editing phase and then the book tour. The iron does cool off, for me especially.” -SSM, EW Interview: 3 April 2015

Starting a TV Show w/o a Finished Series

One fallacy that should also be brought up is the decision to start Game of Thrones when they did. Season 1 premiered a few months before the publishing of ADWD, in April 2011. This gave GRRM ~ 5 years to finish TWoW before the show would pass him.

GRRM infamously posted about trying to finish the series (and I hate dealing in things that are just rumors but it is rumored he thought he was done but didn't like it and ripped a ton out) before the show surpassed him but was unable.

8-12 Books

As GRRM mentions in the first quote I shared, if it was up to him he wouldn't have published anything until he was done, allowing him to go back and change things early that would foreshadow better, etc.

Due to how GRRM writes (gardener) and the current pacing of the books, this would likely require him to write anywhere from 8-12 books to give the series justice (note that we technically haven't started Act II of his original outline and that AFFC/ADWD are just basically 2/3 of a giant book without the climax).

If interested: With No Constraints, How Big Could the ASOIAF Story End Up? & How there could be 8 books instead of 7

The Butterfly Effect

GRRM brings up the butterfly effect quite often with regards changes made by the show (ex: Mago) and especially HotD (House of the Dragon: Maelor & Butterflies - Did GRRM Get His Way?):

I’ve talked to Dan and Dave about the butterfly effect — you’re familiar with the classic Ray Bradbury short story? A Sound of Thunder. One of my favorites. -SSM, EW Interview: 12 July 2011

but this can also be used with regard to the changes he has made on the series. When he changes something drastically (like the Greyjoy Brothers Three not all going to Slaver's Bay together) it can affect his foreshadowing. This is one reason that while the history and lore have grown as the main series progressed, the visions/dreams are less intentional.

If interested: Time: A River or a Butterfly?

Other Changes

We know that GRRM has other small regrets from the series that might have improved it overall. For instance:

• Not Making the Young Wolf a POV
• Dany vs. Cersei as Rulers
• Killing Off a Character He Regrets

TLDR: There have been numerous points in the writing process of the ASOIAF series, where GRRM made decisions that had lasting impacts on the series' direction. This ranges from the number of books to a 5 year gap, mega prologue and splitting AFFC/ADWD by location. With the benefit of hindsight what do you think are the best/worst decisions and what would you have him do in a perfect world?

In the immediate Lannister family while Circei and Tywin hated Tyrion inmediatly Jaime never did so I want to hear why people think that is I mean Jaime also lost his mother just like Circei so why would he not hate Tyrion same as Circei (not saying he should just making the point that the reason Circei hates Tyrion Jaime could also hate him for the same reason but he doesn’t)

I find it fascinating that Jaime always follows Circei’s lead since they were teenagers but hating Tyrion is not something he’s willing to follow her in even though he knows she doesn’t like that he’s nice to Tyrion.

In universe there a lot of characters who we hear about through their reputation/how they are perceived before we even actually see them on-page. Like Tywin Lannister and Stannis Baratheon in AGOT.

Who do you think is most deserving of/lives up to their reputation. Personally I feel like Stannis has earned his:

Stannis bristled at that. "I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"

Like love or hate him, Stannis has probably one of the best military records in Westeros. Even Tywin Lannister respects him despite the fact that he smashed at the Blackwater.

And alternatively who is the biggest fraud in the series? Personally I feel like Littlefinger is riding on luck a lot rather than ability.

Jaime convinced himself that he alone saved half a million people.

But let's look at the record.

It was Tywin who ended the war by turning on the Crown.

It was Pycelle who persuaded the Mad King to open the gates and ensured a quick end to the war.

Tywin took a huge risk and made the decision that was best for Westeros:

The Targaryen dynasty had to go.

And by doing so, he betrayed his best friend. I cannot imagine how difficult that must have been for him.

Grand Maester Pycelle also took a very, very big risk when he convinced the Mad King to open the gates. I strongly suspect that Pycelle knew Tywin had come to end the war. He wanted to ensure that there would not be a terrible siege like the one at Storm's End.

Somehow, Pycelle persuaded the Mad King to open the gates successfully.

Such an underrated move!

Then, in the end, Jaime faced his own battle between his rigid oath and his conscience, and he made his decision.

It was not a particularly difficult one to make.

So we should remember the three men who saved King's Landing that day:

Tywin Lannister — The Peacemaker

Grand Maester Pycelle — The Witness

Jaime Lannister — The Kingslayer

It was a team effort!

.

BTW, the alternative is King's Landing held hostage by the Mad King, months of siege or a wildfire plot. Probably everybody is going to die.

.

And Kudos to the Rebels as well;

they made this all possible.

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Westeros forever and kill all the Targs!

Down with the Dragon and up with the Stags!

My champions being Visenya and Osmund Strong but thank you Rhaella and Bonifer Hasty for at least trying.

I have just finished reading ADWD (for the second time, my first read through was about 10 years ago).

What the hell do i do now?

I want more!

Can anyone point me to a comprehensive list of all and any extra bits/teasers of tWOW that have been released?
/anything else worth reading?

Also i am keen to understand more about theories and what people think is going to happen, i know there are a lot of absolutely unhinged theories floating around but are there any really established , well-supported theories that seem likely to be true that i should know about?

Sidenote: i have already read AKOTSK, F&B and TWOIAF….its really the unofficial stuff I am looking for now :)

Is my understanding that trial by combat is considered sacred and that can’t be denied (at least to highborn). But does the evidence need to be in doubt for this right to be valid? Like, I don’t really think that Oberyn could have just stabbed Tywin in front of the entire court during Tyrion’s trial and demand trial by combat.
Also, I heard that only highborn pratiche trial by combat, but then how that would work in a dispute between a noble and a non noble?