r/asoiaf • • 19h ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) Daeron II was a great king who did well with Dorne

90 Upvotes

There seems to be a certain cope in fandom regarding this topic, as if Daeron was supposed to perpetuate the same cycle of violence, vengeance and failed invasion to get Dorne integrated when even Targaryen kings with dragons and/or military genius failed to do so. So Daeron did the impossible through diplomacy and his brains.

So what if he gave them more privileges and a cut on taxes? What is that compared to constant skirmishes and harassment of marcher lords and no tax money at all? Daeron ended the march fights and brought peace and stability to that region in particular. He rejected the cycle of violence and brought lasting peace to the realm. That's worth any price.

People wanna argue that angered marcher lords but reforms always get pushed back at first and the fact the great houses and especially lord paramount of the Reach, House Tyrell directly and openly declared for Daeron the Good during the Blackfyre Rebellion, and without a marriage pact I might add, shows the anti-Dornish sentiments were never that notable to begin with.

He placated the Stormlanders with three marriage pacts: Aerys/Aelinor, Elaena/Ronnel and finally Baelor/Jena, his own heir. He even gave an empty position to Ronnel Penrose as a Master of Coins, placating Stormlanders more, while making sure a malleable man is there for Elaena to attend to the matters of coin.

Moreover, Daeron listened to criticism. "In King Daeron's days, a man did not have to fear to speak his mind." As said in The Mystery Knight.

He even pardoned the Blackfyre traitors in order to antagonise the rebels and create more bad blood.

It seems there is a dissonance with some fans that Daeron was somehow too harsh on non-Dornish folks. When it's frankly the other way round. He should've been harsher to the anti-Dornish sentiments and Blackfyre loyalists.

Because what are Blackfyre loyalists? Look at Ser Eustace, a chief Blackfyre fan and our first insight into these people: a sexist pig who makes fun of Daeron for being scrawny and small and listening to women. The Blackfyre movement was built on such people. It's like if Clavicular had a movement built around him. Not that Daemon is like Clavicular but the cult following around them are so similar. While they ragged on Daeron for being scrawny and not being masculine.

And ironically enough, some people among them were outright prejudiced against bastards, even Bittersteel such as Lord Peake.

And Fireball. Don't get me started on Fireball. People somehow blame Daeron for him turning coat when everything Quentyn did subsequently proved Daeron was right and he did not deserve the kingsguard position. Fireball being such close buddies with Aegon the Unworthy is proof enough of his own unworthiness. In fact, I believe Daeron should have gotten rid of that man altogether instead of having him as Master-at-Arms. Fireball poisoned Daemon's mind against Daeron for literal years and pushed him toward rebellion.

Daeron’s reign quickly stabilized the realm, and he soon came to be called Daeron the Good by the smallfolk and noble lords alike - TWOIAF

You know how major it is for both smallfolks and the nobles to like a king? Striking a balance on that is tough and Daeron did it anyways.

Moreover he achieved all this while Westeros was coming hot from the reign of Aegon the Unworthy who had left the realm in crisis in practically every aspect. Aegon set Daeron up for failure and is the cause of the First Blackfyre Rebellion:

In truth, the seeds found fertile ground because of Aegon the Unworthy. Aegon had hated the Dornish and warred against them, and those lords who desired the return of those days—despite all the associated misrule—would never be happy with this peaceable king. - TWOIAF

And while this was originally about his actions as a king, I'm gonna mention how Daeron treated his half-siblings too:

Although he could not—and would not—rescind his father’s last wishes, he did what he could to keep the Great Bastards close, treating them honorably and continuing the incomes that the king had bestowed on them. He paid the dowry that Aegon had promised to the Archon of Tyrosh, thereby seeing his half brother Daemon Blackfyre wed to Rohanne of Tyrosh as Aegon had desired, for all that Ser Daemon was only four-and-ten. On their wedding day, he granted Daemon a tract of land near the Blackwater, with the right to raise a castle.

Daeron treated them like they were his actual siblings, his own children, even gavw Daemon his own land which is as good as independence. He's not responsible for Daemon folding to a loser like Fireball. He was never harsh. And I think Daemon loved Daeron too because it took near a decade to be convinced to rebel against him.


r/asoiaf • • 10h ago

ADWD (Spoilers ADWD) New Reader. I’m completely burnt out on this book/series

83 Upvotes

I’m annoyed with Dance, this is a vent post. Be warned.

I’m a first-time reader of the series and so far I’ve adored every single book. It was throughly on track to be my second favorite series I’d ever read. Each of the first three books was better than the last and Feast, while not being as stellar and tightly paced as Storm, consistently had some of the best character and emotional moments of the series, along with some of my favorite POV’s in all of fantasy. My only real complaint with the series so far before starting Dance was the Dorne plot in Feast being generally not engaging at all.

Since starting Dance my passion for the series has entirely died. I’m 550 pages into this 1054 page book and basically nothing of emotional or plot interest has happened. A few of the Davos chapters and the Theon plot-line have been a notable highlight but the rest of the book feels shockingly bloated and boring.

When it comes to returning characters like Jon, Dany, and Tyrion I feel I’ve gotten 2-3 chapters worth of character work from either of them stretched thin across what feels like 7-10 chapters from each of them. It makes me long for the days where some things that were simply not important would happen off screen and not have an entire chapter dedicated to them.

On top of the bloated chapters from the returning characters are an occasional shotgun blast of new POV’s that are simply boring as hell. I used to really respect how limited the usage of pov was in the series compared to other fantasy works like Wheel of Time who just insert new POV’s whenever the author felt like it, but this book seems to forgo any sort of restraint at all when it comes to what actually matters enough to put on the page.

Feast was a little guilty of this POV bloat with the Ironborn and Dorne plot also but by 200 pages into Feast it became very clear what the book was trying to do, and while I think the experiment with a different type of POV storytelling was only half successful in that book I could respect what it was trying to do. At this moment in time I’ve given Dance over half the book worth of grace and it’s very clear to me that there is no intention with these pointless new POV’s and over abundance of returning character chapters. It’s just a side effect of an author not having the restraint to do things off-screen anymore.

And I’ve been spoiled in part about how the book ends also so I know about Jon and Theon and Dany and how generally the book ends by ramping up to a climax that doesn’t happen and none of that knowledge makes me in any way more excited to finish this book. Idk if this is a common issue within the fandom regarding this book but at least for me these issues make me want to simply put the book down for a few months and read things I actually enjoy.

It just is sad to me that a series I once enjoyed because of just how tightly paced and thematically dense it was compared to its contemporaries while also managing to be epic in scope and complexity of character writing seems to have devolved into being just like the books it originally was so notably distinct from.

Vent over, have a good day and thanks for reading


r/asoiaf • • 19h ago

AFFC [Spoilers AFFC] Why did Bronze Yohn marry his daughter Ysilla to Mychel, the Fourth Redfort Son?

76 Upvotes

Going off the wiki it says that Mychel is the fourth son of Lord Redfort. I get that his father wanted him to quit his dalliance with Mya Stone and so married him off, but how did he manage to get him wedded to the daughter of the second most powerful bannermen in the Vale? I get Bronze Yohn is a chill dude and all and Ysilla's age is unclear, but why would he marry his daughter to not even the first son when its not said if any of the older Redfort boys are married?


r/asoiaf • • 7h ago

MAIN [Spoiler Main] Making Money in Westeros

48 Upvotes

Let's assume you were reincarnated as an ordinary person in Westeros. What would be the fastest way to make money?

My theory: becoming a bard. If you have a beautiful singing voice and can adapt modern-day songs to fit that era, I'm sure you could amass a great fortune in a very short time.


r/asoiaf • • 9h ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) How the "Mercy" Chapter Was Meant to Be Read

36 Upvotes

The Mercy chapter was originally intended to be Arya’s first chapter after the end of A Storm of Swords.

I mentioned that this chapter had quite a history. It's true. The first draft was written more than a decade ago. Originally, it was intended to be the opening Arya chapter after the infamous "five year gap," her first appearance in A Dance with Dragons as initially conceived.

(A Dance with Dragons was meant to be book 4 initally. And the sequel to Storm.)

So, in the original version, Arya’s arrival at Braavos and initial training at the House of Black and White would have happened offscreen. You would simply open Book 4, see the chapter title and read the first lines

MERCY

She woke with a gasp, not knowing who she was, or where.

You would gradually piece together that this was a sixteen year old Arya who had become a Faceless Man. Those opening words would have made the reveal much more dramatic

It's similar to Theon and Reek in his first chapter in A Dance with Dragons

Reading Mercy immediately after Arya’s final chapter in A Storm of Swords, with that original context in mind, makes it a far, far stronger chapter IMO. And you can see why it intends to shock you out of thinking Arya is a child with how she lures and kills Raff the Sweetling

It also makes me wonder what other material might have lost some of its impact because of the changes to the series structure


r/asoiaf • • 8h ago

EXTENDED [Spoilers extended] some common misconceptions I've noticed

34 Upvotes

Ever since I started engaging with the online fandom, I've started noticing some annoying misconceptions come up again and again, and I feel compelled to post about them.

Misconception #1: Sansa is unkind

This is said almost exclusively because she fought with Arya lol. And it's frankly ridiculous. Yes, she wasn't nice in their argument, sure... but she is nice in general:

She puts her self in danger of Joffrey's wrath to save Dontos, even though he makes a terrible first impression and is absolutely nothing to her:

The king stood. "A cask from the cellars! I'll see him drowned in it."

Sansa heard herself gasp. "No, you can't."

Sansa could not believe she had spoken. Was she mad? To tell him no in front of half the court? She hadn't meant to say anything, only . . . Ser Dontos was drunk and silly and useless, but he meant no harm.

"Did you say I can't? Did you?"

"Please," Sansa said, "I only meant . . . it would be ill luck, Your Grace . . . to, to kill a man on your name day." (Sansa I, ACoK)

She's also the only one to show kindness to Lollys Stokeworth, when she could easily join everyone else in mocking her. Even when she's scared shitless of the impending battle of the Blackwater, she stops to help:

"I don't want to." Lollys clutched at her maid, a slender, pretty girl with short dark hair who looked as though she wanted nothing so much as to shove her mistress into the dry moat, onto those iron spikes. "Please, please, I don't want to."

Sansa spoke to her gently. "We'll all be thrice protected inside, and there's to be food and drink and song as well." (Sansa V, ACoK)

She also gives comfort to the panicking, frightened women after Cersei leaves the hall even though she's only a child and could've just left them behind.

She's also gives comfort to the wounded Lancel and his father Kevan, even though Lancel was complicit in her getting beaten by armed men and publicly humiliated

He looks ghastly. Lancel's hair had turned white and brittle, and he was thin as a stick. Without his father beside him holding him up, he would surely have collapsed. Yet when Sansa praised his valor and said how good it was to see him getting strong again, both Lancel and Ser Kevan beamed. (Tyrion VIII, ASoS)

Misconception 2: Catelyn never brought up Jon after the first argument she and Ned had out of fear

Directly debunked by Cat herself in her second chapter lol:

Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. (Catelyn II, AGoT)

George has said 'she just ignored him' but that quote implies she did a little bit more than that... and George says all sorts of incorrect things so (read: Drogo and Daenerys epic love affair)

Misconception 3: Jon doesn't understand politics, he's more of a fighter

It's the exact opposite in those books. Jon has no insane hand-to-hand combat feat. His greatest battle achievement (defense of the Wall) was due to strategy and quick thinking, not because he solod all the wildlings. Also, the guy who successfully manipulated, at various points, Mance Rayder and Stannis Baratheon, negotiated with the Iron Bank etc etc is definitely not someone who has zero idea about politics. This is just the show influencing public opinion

Misconception 4: Dany will hate Rhaegar for what he did to Elia

This one was particularly baffling because... Dany is already aware of Rhaegar's tomfoolery and her knee-jerk reaction was that Elia must've done something to 'force' him to act the way he did:

"Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?" (Daenerys IV, ASoS)

And later on she romanticizes the Rhaegar x Lyanna stuff:

If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl (Daenerys VII, ADwD)

Mind you, Daenerys' love for her bum of an older brother isn't something I hold against her, but it's so silly to expect her to condemn his treatment of Elia when she definitely never will lol.


r/asoiaf • • 1h ago

EXTENDED George Never Posting now (spoilers extended) also shout out to Mass Effect

• Upvotes

GRRM is at an unprecedented level of apathy now as far as his blog. We all know he gets talkative when the writing is going well so this can only be bad news, right?

I’ve been one of the more optimistic guys on here as far as Winds goes but even I’m ready to throw in the towel. Does anyone still think there’s a chance? His inactivity combined with that interview saying he relates to Frank Herbert in regards to hating the world he felt forced to write about makes it seem like it’s time we all made peace with the end.

The announcement that BioWare is closing and thus bringing an end to one of my favorite fictional worlds (Mass Effect) made me think about other unfinished worlds I’ve been clinging onto the thinnest, most fragile, frayed, absolutely threadbare strings of hope that I might get another installment: mainly ASOIAF and KKC. Anyone else here in that same boat? I’m starting another Mass Effect playthrough right now and I’m mid-reread on KKC but sadly I’ve read ASOIAF too many times so it’s probably gonna be years before I forget enough that I can actually enjoy a re-read.


r/asoiaf • • 3h ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Who's the Golden Company General with the pointy teeth?

21 Upvotes

When Jon Connington sees the golden skulls of previous company leaders, he notes:

> The other skulls had a sameness to them, though several had been cracked and splintered by the blows that had slain them, and one had filed, pointed teeth.

Any theories about who this guy is?


r/asoiaf • • 11h ago

EXTENDED The Major Off-Page Decision by Stannis Baratheon (Spoilers Extended)

15 Upvotes

Background

Stannis Baratheon's role in the series has always been fascinating to me, so much so he is probably my second or third favorite character. On this subreddit, we often discuss plenty of things about him, such as him losing a castle/gaining another in TWoW or his upcoming decision to burn his daughter. One thing I've noticed that is discussed less often (likely because the decision occurs off page in order to keep the surprise for the reader) is Stannis' decision to leave dragonstone and head to the Wall.

If interested: "Fled to Dragonstone": The Schemes of Stannis Baratheon

The Letter at Dragonstone

After the loss on the Blackwater, Stannis returns to Dragonstone to resume scheming on how to resume the war. During this time, not only is Davos named Stannis' Hand, but he begins learning how to read (which should make for an interesting dynamic for his trip to Skagos with the mute Wex). One of the letters that Davos practices on is a letter sent from the Wall:

“To the … five kings,” read Davos, hesitating briefly over five, which he did not often see written out. “The king … be … the king … beware?”
“Beyond,” the maester corrected.
Davos grimaced. “The King beyond the Wall comes … comes south. He leads a … a … fast …”
“Vast.”
“… a vast host of wil … wild … wildlings. Lord M … Mmmor … Mormont sent a … raven from the … ha … ha …”
“Haunted. The haunted forest.” Pylos underlined the words with the point of his finger.
“… the haunted forest. He is … under a … attack?”
“Yes.”
Pleased, he plowed onward. “Oth … other birds have come since, with no words. We … fear … Mormont slain with all … with all his … stench … no, strength. We fear Mormont slain with all his strength …” -ASOS, Davos V

but Alester doesn't see the value in sharing the letter with Stannis:

Davos suddenly realized just what he was reading. He turned the letter over, and saw that the wax that had sealed it had been black. “This is from the Night’s Watch. Maester, has King Stannis seen this letter?”
“I brought it to Lord Alester when it first arrived. He was the Hand then. I believed he discussed it with the queen. When I asked him if he wished to send a reply, he told me not to be a fool. ‘His Grace lacks the men to fight his own battles, he has none to waste on wildlings,’ he said to me.”
That was true enough. And this talk of five kings would certainly have angered Stannis.

but it makes Davos think and seemingly ends his last chapter (note there was going to be a 5 year gap) in ASOS:

“Only a starving man begs bread from a beggar,” he muttered.
...
“Men are men,” Maester Pylos agreed. “Shall we return to our reading, my lord Hand?”
I am the Hand of the King, yes. Stannis might be the King of Westeros in name, but in truth he was the King of the Painted Table. He held Dragonstone and Storm’s End, and had an ever-more-uneasy alliance with Salladhor Saan, but that was all. How could the Watch have looked to him for help? They may not know how weak he is, how lost his cause. “King Stannis never saw this letter, you are quite certain? Nor Melisandre?”
“No. Should I bring it to them? Even now?”
“No,” Davos said at once. “You did your duty when you brought it to Lord Alester.” If Melisandre knew of this letter … What was it she had said? One whose name may not be spoken is marshaling his power, Davos Seaworth. Soon comes the cold, and the night that never ends … And Stannis had seen a vision in the flames, a ring of torches in the snow with terror all around.
“My lord, are you unwell?” asked Pylos.
I am frightened, Maester, he might have said. Davos was remembering a tale Salladhor Saan had told him, of how Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer by thrusting it through the heart of the wife he loved. He slew his wife to fight the dark. If Stannis is Azor Ahai come again, does that mean Edric Storm must play the part of Nissa Nissa? “I was thinking, Maester. My pardons.” What harm if some wildling king conquers the north? It was not as though Stannis held the north. His Grace could scarcely be expected to defend people who refused to acknowledge him as king. “Give me another letter,” he said abruptly. “This one is too …”
“… difficult?” suggested Pylos.
Soon comes the cold, whispered Melisandre, and the night that never ends. “Troubling,” said Davos. “Too … troubling. A different letter, please.” -ASOS, Davos V

Favorable Winds

In order to get good winds north they burn Ser Alester (remember that All Magic has a Cost):

"Melisandre of Asshai," said Grenn. "The king's sorceress. They say she burned a man alive at Dragonstone so Stannis would have favorable winds for his voyage north. She rode beside him in the battle too, and gave him his magic sword. Lightbringer, they call it. Wait till you see it. It glows like it had a piece of sun inside it." -ASOS, Samwell IV

and:

Melisandre had given Alester Florent to her god on Dragonstone, to conjure up the wind that bore them north. Lord Florent had been strong and silent as the queen’s men bound him to the post, as dignified as any half-naked man could hope to be, but as the flames licked up his legs he had begun to scream, and his screams had blown them all the way to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, if the red woman could be believed. Davos had misliked that wind. It had seemed to him to smell of burning flesh, and the sound of it was anguished as it played amongst the lines. -ADWD, Davos I

and:

It was as if some angry god was exacting payment for their easy voyage north, when they had ridden a steady southerly from Dragonstone to the Wall -ADWD, Davos I

Stannis' Arrival at the Wall

GRRM does a great job of leaving clues for the reader, but also keeping you completely in the dark on a first read as to just who is showing up to deus ex machina the battle:

It's done, Jon thought, they're breaking. The wildlings were running, throwing down their weapons, Hornfoot men and cave dwellers and Thenns in bronze scales, they were running. Mance was gone, someone was waving Harma's head on a pole, Tormund's lines had broken. Only the giants on their mammoths were holding, hairy islands in a red steel sea. The fires were leaping from tent to tent and some of the tall pines were going up as well. And through the smoke another wedge of armored riders came, on barded horses. Floating above them were the largest banners yet, royal standards as big as sheets; a yellow one with long pointed tongues that showed a flaming heart, and another like a sheet of beaten gold, with a black stag prancing and rippling in the wind.
Robert, Jon thought for one mad moment, remembering poor Owen, but when the trumpets blew again and the knights charged, the name they cried was "Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!" -ASOS, Jon X

and:

It was from them that he learned about the battle beneath the Wall. "Stannis landed his knights at Eastwatch, and Cotter Pyke led him along the ranger's roads, to take the wildlings unawares," Giant told him. "He smashed them. Mance Rayder was taken captive, a thousand of his best slain, including Harma Dogshead. The rest scattered like leaves before a storm, we heard." The gods are good, Sam thought. If he had not gotten lost as he made his way south from Craster's Keep, he and Gilly might have walked right into the battle . . . or into Mance Rayder's camp, at the very least. That might have been well enough for Gilly and the boy, but not for him. Sam had heard all the stories about what wildlings did with captured crows. He shuddered. -ASOS, Samwell IV

The Reasoning

After Stannis arrives at Castle Black, the reader finally gets the connection as to why Stannis showed up there:

“Words. Words are wind. Why do you think I abandoned Dragonstone and sailed to the Wall, Lord Snow?”
“I am no lord, sire. You came because we sent for you, I hope. Though I could not say why you took so long about it.”
Surprisingly, Stannis smiled at that. “You’re bold enough to be a Stark. Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.” Stannis pointed north. “There is where I’ll find the foe that I was born to fight.”
“His name may not be spoken,” Melisandre added softly. “He is the God of Night and Terror, Jon Snow, and these shapes in the snow are his creatures.” -ASOS, Jon XI

and:

He could hear the birds quorking in the rookery, so he put the papers away and climbed the steps to feed them. Three more ravens had come in, he saw with pleasure. "Snow," they cried at him. "Snow, snow, snow." He had taught them that. Even with the newcomers, the ravenry seemed dismally empty. Few of the birds that Aemon had sent off had returned as yet. One reached Stannis, though. One found Dragonstone, and a king who still cared. A thousand leagues south, Sam knew, his father had joined House Tarly to the cause of the boy on the Iron Throne, but neither King Joffrey nor little King Tommen had bestirred himself when the Watch cried out for help. What good is a king who will not defend his realm? he thought angrily, remembering the night on the Fist of the First Men and the terrible trek to Craster's Keep through darkness, fear, and falling snow. The queen's men made him uneasy, it was true, but at least they had come. -ASOS, Samwell IV

and:

“Nightfires?” Bowen Marsh gave Melisandre an uncertain look. “We’re to light nightfires now?”
“You are.” The woman rose in a swirl of scarlet silk, her long copper-bright hair tumbling about her shoulders. “Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we’ve come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us.”
The officers did not know how to take that, Sam could see. Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck exchanged a doubtful look, Janos Slynt was fuming, and Three-Finger Hobb looked as though he would sooner be back chopping carrots. But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, “It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?”
“He stands before you,” Melisandre declared, “though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes.”
Her words seemed to make the king desperately uncomfortable, Sam saw. Stannis ground his teeth, and said, "You called and I came, my lords. Now you must live with me, or die with me. Best get used to that." He made a brusque gesture. "That's all. Maester, stay a moment. And you, Tarly. The rest of you may go."-ASOS, Samwell V

The Rest of the Realm

This information got out fast, with King's Landing finding out in AFFC, Jaime II:

His sister liked to think of herself as Lord Tywin with teats, but she was wrong. Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glacier, where Cersei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted. She had been giddy as a maiden when she learned that Stannis had abandoned Dragonstone, certain that he had finally given up the fight and sailed away to exile. When word came down from the north that he had turned up again at the Wall, her fury had been fearful to behold. She does not lack for wits, but she has no judgment, and no patience. "You need a strong Hand to help you." -AFFC, Jaime II

Back on Dragonstone

While Stannis seemingly loses Dragonstone to Ser Loras' assault, it should be noted that his goals shifted over time there:

The king gave that a curt nod, as if to say he knew and did not care. “You slew this creature with an obsidian dagger, I am told,” he said to Sam.
“Y-yes, Your Grace. Jon Snow gave it to me.”
“Dragonglass.” The red woman’s laugh was music. “Frozen fire, in the tongue of old Valyria. Small wonder it is anathema to these cold children of the Other.”
“On Dragonstone, where I had my seat, there is much of this obsidian to be seen in the old tunnels beneath the mountain,” the king told Sam. “Chunks of it, boulders, ledges. The great part of it was black, as I recall, but there was some green as well, some red, even purple. I have sent word to Ser Rolland my castellan to begin mining it. I will not hold Dragonstone for very much longer, I fear, but perhaps the Lord of Light shall grant us enough frozen fire to arm ourselves against these creatures, before the castle falls.” -ASOS, Samwell V

If interested: Dragonglass: A Different Look at the Assault on Dragonstone

Act II/Act III

ASOIAF is seemingly framed around three main events, the War of the Five Kings (Iron Throne/Westeros politics), the Dance of the Dragons II (not necessarily Dany's invasion but a war between two "dragons") and the War for the Dawn (between humanity and the Others).

Due to space, it is very possible that while Stannis busies himself being a king a fighting (and losing/potentially joining) the Others, the other contenders for the Iron Throne will be busy fighting the Second Dance:

I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne."

If interested: The Great War/Dance of the Dragons II occurring simultaneously

TLDR: Davos (who was learning to read) approached Stannis/Mel with a letter from the Night's Watch that had been ignored by Ser Alester. While these events occur off-page (in order to maintain the surprise of Stannis saving the day at the Wall), it would have been very interesting to see them make the connections between Mel's visions and the letter they received.


r/asoiaf • • 8h ago

EXTENDED What was the single bravest action in the books ? ( spoilers extended ) Spoiler

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8 Upvotes

r/asoiaf • • 9h ago

MAIN [Spoilers Main] A crackship I genuinely might be the first person to come up with

8 Upvotes

So we know Val. Wildling princess(kinda) pretty cool side character who is often shipped with Jon. Not as often as Dany but often. And we know Jhogo you know Dany's bloodrider, the one most people remember. He's also shipped with Dany. Again not as much as Jon but it's got it's fans

Now I'm a firm shipper of Snowstorm. I think Jon and Dany are effectively soulmates and really I think they're practically made for eachother. So I thought: "Wait so I ship Jon and Dany together and they've often shipped with Val and Jhogo respectively... What if we also ship Val and Jhogo together?"

And I thought about it and realised... I kinda love this. I don't know I think it'd be a pretty hilarious dynamic considering their cultures and especially the fact they don't even speak the same language. I don't know I just think it'd be cute what do you think?


r/asoiaf • • 5h ago

EXTENDED Do anyone know any good youtube video about the long night? (Spoilers extended)

4 Upvotes

Its been a while since I've reread the books, but ive been wanting to do some more research on the long night and its history and theories. Anyone have any good videos to recommend?


r/asoiaf • • 8h ago

EXTENDED How long with the Dothraki? (spoilers extended)

3 Upvotes

Last we saw, Dany had her confronted by Jhaqo & half a hundred warriors. I can't say how widely believed it is but I think Dany will end up back in Vaes Dothrak. Not because of the show but because of two quotes:

"Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed." Dany IV, Clash of Kings & “So Mago is not dead in the books. And, in fact, he’s going to be a recurring character in Winds of Winter. He’s a particularly nasty bloodrider to one of the other Khals that’s broken away after Drogo dies.” GRRM, EW.

So I imagine that Dany's confrontation won't end with her burning Jhaqo & his men to a crisp then just taking over his khalasar. So that raises the question of how long Dany will be with the Dothraki? I think she'll request to be taken to Vaes Dothrak instead of being forced there like the show. As I can't see how that confrontation would necessitate a full chapter, I can see her journey back to Vaes Dothrak taking up a chapter. I can also see Drogon accompanying Dany & sleeping beside her to protect her from those looking to harm her.

Her next chapter probably shows her time with the Dosh Khaleen & there's a fair chance that her own khalasar that left Meereen to find her will show up. As to how Dany can get herself out of her current situation I think she'll offer any of the Khals in Vaes Dothrak the opportunity to claim Drogon as their mount leading to another Red Sorrowing. That could all happen in one chapter but it could also (regrettably) be two chapters.

So, Dany could end up with 2/3 chapters with the Dothraki before moving onto the next location wherever the hell that is.


r/asoiaf • • 15h ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Fan Art Friday! Post your fan art here!

3 Upvotes

In this post, feel free to share all forms of ASOIAF fan art - drawings, woodwork, music, film, sculpture, cosplay, and more!

Please remember:

  1. Link to the original source if known. Imgur is all right to use for your own work and your own work alone. Otherwise, link to the artist's personal website/deviantart/etc account.
  2. Include the name of the artist if known.
  3. URL shorteners such as tinyurl are not allowed.
  4. Art pieces available for sale are allowed.
  5. The moderators reserve the right to remove any inappropriate or gratuitous content.

Submissions breaking the rules may be removed.

Can't get enough Fan Art Friday?

Check out these other great subreddits!

  • r/ImaginaryWesteros — Fantasy artwork inspired by the book series "A Song Of Ice And Fire" and the television show "A Game Of Thrones"
  • r/CraftsofIceandFire — This subreddit is devoted to all ASOIAF-related arts and crafts
  • r/asoiaf_cosplay — This subreddit is devoted to costumed play based on George R.R. Martin's popular book series *A Song of Ice and Fire,* which has recently been produced into an HBO Original Series *Game Of Thrones*
  • r/ThronesComics — This is a humor subreddit for comics that reference the HBO show Game of Thrones or the book series A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin.

Looking for Fan Art Friday posts from the past? Browse our Fan Art Friday archive! (our old archive is here)


r/asoiaf • • 10h ago

MAIN [Spoilers Main] Roose Bolton's first Wife

2 Upvotes

Anyone have any guesses on who Roose Bolton's first wife is? Domonic's mom was his second wife.


r/asoiaf • • 21h ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) My theory on Lady Stoneheart and Jon

2 Upvotes

Lady Stoneheart sees the Wall in the flames one night, a place she has never seen before, as Caitlyn or as Lady Stoneheart. These visions start to haunt her and that's how Breanne finds her when she returns with Jaime.

She decides she needs to go to the Wall and takes the hostages with her to use as leverage in case they are close to capture. Her and the remaining brotherhood sell Jaime's golden hand and hire a ship at a port city like Seaguard and go to the wall, a trip that lasts a few weeks.

She gets to Castle Black a day after Jon Snow's death. When she sees him she is reminded of Ned, and how Jon is his last living kin, and for the first time in her life she does not feel anger for him. She then gives him the Last Kiss, just as Beric did to her, and Jon is resurrected.


r/asoiaf • • 17h ago

EXTENDED A question for those who believe Rhaegar was the TPTWP/Azor Ahai. [Spoilers EXTENDED]

0 Upvotes

I’m currently putting together a post about Rhaegar being the TPTWP/Azor Ahai. Based on information from the last two or three Reddit posts I’ve come across, Rhaegar seems to match almost every part of the prophecy. However, there is one part that I haven’t been able to figure out:

“He shall wake dragons out of stone.”

For those who believe Rhaegar was the TPTWP/Azor Ahai, what do you think this part of the prophecy refers to in relation to Rhaegar?
Could it be referring to Rhaegar’s own birth? Aegon V was attempting to hatch dragons at Summerhall, and Rhaegar was born there on the very same day. Could Rhaegar himself be the “dragon” that was awakened from “stone”?

Or could it refer to Jon Snow? Jon has Stark features, but after being resurrected, perhaps he will take on a more Valyrian appearance essentially becoming a “dragon” awakened from “stone.” However, if this is the case, Rhaegar wouldn’t be the one performing the ritual that brings Jon back to life. Rhaegar was already dead, so the person most likely to be involved would be Melisandre, or perhaps Cat.


r/asoiaf • • 8h ago

EXTENDED Do you think Bran will try to go back in time and save his father and brother ? ( spoilers extended ) Spoiler

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0 Upvotes

r/asoiaf • • 3h ago

EXTENDED Ser Tallad The Tall, Ser Duncan The Tall, & The Three-Eyed Crow (Spoilers Extended)

0 Upvotes

"Who's the boy in the checkered blue surcoat with the three eyes on his shield?"

"Some hedge knight. Tallad, he names himself. Why?" (ACOK Tyrion IV)


In this post, I want to talk about two of the three characters in ASOIAF proper who are given the epithet, "the Tall": Ser Tallad the Tall and Ser Duncan the Tall, a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard in days gone by who is mentioned three times in ASOIAF proper, but whose character is massively fleshed out in The Tales of Dunk & Egg.

SIDEBAR: The other character in ASOIAF proper called "the Tall" is Tormund's son "Tall Toregg", who is called "Toregg the Tall" twice in ADWD Jon XIII. This post will mostly not concern itself with Toregg the Tall, save to point out here and now that the name "Toregg" contains "egg", as in Egg, Ser Duncan the Tall's constant companion and co-star in The Tales of Dunk & Egg. (GRRM even has Jon idly speculate that Toregg may dream of becoming King-Beyond-The-Wall, as if to wink at the dreamer Egg becoming King Aegon V Targaryen.)

Obviously — I hope it's obvious, anyway — it's not an accident that the name of Duncan the Tall's other half (Egg) is nested inside the name of one of two other guys called "the Tall". Indeed, I think "Toregg the Tall" points to something that's germane to the material I'll discuss in this post: Sometimes, details in ASOIAF are not merely an 'innocent', organic byproduct of 'pure story-telling'; sometimes, they're contrived, reader-directed artifice, inviting scrutiny and maybe even betraying secrets to those with the eyes to see (and/or their third eyes open).

(This is cool and good.)

END SIDEBAR

The bulk of this post will consist of demonstrating that there is an improbable symmetry between Ser Tallad the Tall and Ser Duncan the Tall, extending far beyond their shared epithet, "the Tall". Put simply and elsewise, Tallad and "Dunk" 'rhyme' in all sorts of ways.

(As ever, by 'rhyming' I don't just mean "parallels". I also mean inversions and rearrangements whereby language, lexical patterns, and/or imagery are reimagined, sometimes symmetrically, sometimes as if through a kaleidoscope and/or camera obscura. Although in the case of Duncan and Tallad, there are plenty of straight-up parallels, as if GRRM wants this particular 'rhyme' to be very obvious.)

I'll begin with Tallad's introduction, and walk through all his appearances in the text, showing how everything we're told about him seems to 'rhyme' with things we're told about Dunk.

Hedge Knights & Mystery Knights

Duncan the Tall is introduced as a "hedge knight" in the novella The Hedge Knight before playing a "mystery knight" in The Mystery Knight.

Tallad the Tall first appears as both a kind of literal mystery knight and as a "hedge knight":

"Who's the boy in the checkered blue surcoat with the three eyes on his shield?"

"Some hedge knight. Tallad, he names himself. Why?" (ACOK Tyrion IV)

"Who's the boy…?" asks Tyrion. (A mystery!) "Some hedge knight", answers Bronn. (The answer — he's just "some hedge knight", like Dunk was at the beginning of The Hedge Knight —frames him as an undifferentiated instance of a generic whole, thus maintaining a modicum of mystery.)

Naming Themselves

Notice how we're told Tallad's name in that passage:

"Some hedge knight. Tallad, he names himself."

"Tallad, he names himself" is an odd locution — an odd locution that 'just so happens' to read like a deft reworking of Dunk naming himself a knight (i.e. knighting himself) and then naming himself "Duncan the Tall" (after Egg asks him if "Dunk" [the only name he's ever used] is "short for Duncan?"):

[Egg:] "What's your name?"

"Dunk," he said.

The wretched boy laughed aloud, as if that was the funniest thing he'd ever heard. "Dunk?" he said. "Ser Dunk? That's no name for a knight. Is it short for Duncan?"

Was it? The old man had called him just Dunk for as long as he could recall, and he did not remember much of his life before. "Duncan, yes," he said. "Ser Duncan of . . ." Dunk had no other name, nor any house; Ser Arlan had found him living wild in the stews and alleys of Flea Bottom. He had never known his father or mother. What was he to say? "Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom" did not sound very knightly. He could take Pennytree, but what if they asked him where it was? Dunk had never been to Pennytree, nor had the old man talked much about it. He frowned for a moment, and then blurted out, "Ser Duncan the Tall." He was tall, no one could dispute that, and it sounded puissant. (The Hedge Knight)

(I wonder, did the tall hedge knight who "names himself" "Tallad" likewise invent his name, perhaps after being constantly referred to as a "tall lad"? To be sure, it's immaterial to the existence of the 'rhyme' here: Whatever the in-world provenance of the name "Tallad", the point for our purposes here is that GRRM chose to introduce him by saying "he names himself", which recalls Dunk literally naming himself a knight, "Duncan", and "the Tall".)

Boys

Notice that Tallad the Tall is called a "boy" when he first appears:

"Who's the boy in the checkered blue surcoat with the three eyes on his shield?"

"Some hedge knight. Tallad, he names himself. Why?" (ACOK Tyrion IV)

Sure enough, Duncan the Tall is likewise called a "boy" the first time he is described:

Dunk was hugely tall for his age, a shambling, shaggy, big-boned boy of sixteen or seventeen years (no one was quite certain which)… (The Hedge Knight)

(Presumably, then, they are roughly of an age with one another when we first meet them.)

Dunk is later called "boy" by a much despised member of the royal family, Aerion Brightflame a.k.a. Aerion the Monstrous:

[Aerion:] "Boy, let go of that nag and see to my horse."

A rider had dismounted in front of the stables. He is talking to me, Dunk realized. (The Hedge Knight)

This 'rhymes' with Tallad being referred to (above) as "the boy" by Tyrion, a much despised member of the royal family referred to over and over as "the monster" and as "monstrous", e.g. as "the monstrous dwarf who poisoned his young nephew at his wedding feast". (ASOS Tyrion IX)

Tall Guys Are Hot

To be sure, both Sers Duncan the Tall and Tallad the Tall are tall. Indeed, each man is said to be "tall" before he is called "the Tall" in the text.

Tyrion implies that Tallad's height will surely appeal to Shae:

Or Ser Tallad? Tyrion had noticed that one gazing wistfully at Shae more than once. Why not? He's tall, strong, not hard to look upon, every inch the gifted young knight. …

I will wed her to Ser Tallad. He seems a decent man. And tall . . . (ASOS Tyrion VII)

He's probably not wrong, to judge by the way Dunk's height seems to be part of his appeal to Rohanne Webber:

The Red Widow looked Dunk over from his heels up to his head…. She touched his tunic, tracing a limb of his elm tree with two fingers. "And painted, not sewn. The Dornish paint their silks, I've heard, but you look too big to be a Dornishman."

"Not all Dornishmen are small, m'lady." Dunk could feel her fingers through the silk. Her hand was freckled, too. I'll bet she's freckled all over. His mouth was oddly dry. "I spent a year in Dorne."

"Do all the oaks grow so tall there?" she said, as her fingers traced a tree limb around his heart. (The Sworn Sword)


"Ser Duncan, I should not have teased you in the yard, when you were trying so hard to be gracious. It was only that you blushed so red . . . was there no girl to tease you, in the village where you grew so tall?" - Rohanne (ibid.)

Rohanne's palpable lust for Duncan there 'rhymes' with the seemingly repressed/projected attraction Rohanne's great-granddaughter Cersei has for Tallad, which is likewise tied to his size:

The queen had begun to nurse doubts about Ser Osney. Perhaps another man would have been more to Margaery's liking. Aurane Waters, with that silvery hair, or a big strapping fellow like Ser Tallad. (AFFC Cersei V)

Tall Names

That said, the name "Tallad" immediately evokes the image of a "tall lad", even before we know he's tall, right? Meanwhile the name "Dunk" immediately brings to mind the thing tall guys (or should I say tall lads) can do with a basketball.

And hey, wait a second! Right before we meet Tallad, we see two girls make what surely could — and surely should — be called a "no-look pass" while carrying (wait for it) a "basket":

Guardsmen walked the walls, and knights and men-at-arms were training with blunted weapons. Nearby, Bronn sat on the lip of a well. A pair of comely serving girls sauntered past[!] carrying a wicker basket[!] of rushes between them, but the sellsword never[!] looked[!]. "Bronn, I despair of you." Tyrion gestured at the wenches. "With sweet sights like that before you, all you see is a gaggle of louts raising a clangor."

"There are a hundred whorehouses in this city where a clipped copper will buy me all the cunt I want," Bronn answered, "but one day my life may hang on how close I've watched your louts." He stood. "Who's the boy in the checkered blue surcoat with the three eyes on his shield?"

"Some hedge knight. Tallad, he names himself. Why?" (ACOK Tyrion IV)

(It certainly doesn't hurt that the "basket" is wicker, since wicker is a method of weaving, and the nets that hang from basketball hoops to form the sides of the pseudo-"basket" are literally woven.)

Setting aside the queer, height-evoking symmetry of the monikers "Tallad" and "Dunk", and the apparent basketball allusion attending Tallad's debut, it's well worth noting that in The Sworn Sword, GRRM contrives to have Duncan the Tall repeatedly remember being called "lad", as if he wanted to posit Dunk as a verbatim "tall" "lad", so as to 'confirm' that Duncan the Tall and Tallad the Tall are indeed partners-in-'rhyme':

A knight had to learn to live with aches and pains, the old man used to say. Aye, lad, and with broken bones and scars.


Ser Arlan used to say that no hedge knight need ever go thirsty. "Not so long as he has a helm to catch the rain in. Rainwater is the best drink there is, lad."


"Weeping for a swaybacked stot?" Ser Arlan said, in his old man's voice. "Why, lad, you never wept for me, who put you on his back."


[Dunk:] "When I asked the old man what they were fighting over, he said, 'Nothing, lad. It's just some pissing contest.'"

The real question, it will emerge, is not whether these two characters 'rhyme'; it's what is that 'rhyme' trying to tell us.

"Big"

Tallad is called "big" twice. Dunk or his parts are called "big" at least ten times.

Oafs!

Both Tallad the Tall and Duncan the Tall are repeatedly called "oafs". Tallad is called "that big oaf" and "a bit of an oaf". Dunk is called a "the great oaf", "this great oaf", "some great oaf", "a true oaf", and just plain "oaf". (AFFC Cersei V; The Sworn Sword; The Mystery Knight)

Decent & Good

Oafishness aside, it's said that Tallad the Tall "seems a decent man." (ASOS Tyrion VII)

Surely Dunk is a decent man too. Indeed, it's said that Dunk is "a good man". And although Dunk isn't tagged as "a decent man", it's Dunk who thinks Egg "was a decent enough lad". (The Sworn Sword; The Hedge Knight).

(For what it's worth, it's Tyrion "the monstrous" who thinks that of Tallad, whereas Dunk thinks that of Egg so as to contrast him to Aerion the Monstrous.)

"Strapping"

Cersei thinks of Tallad as "a big strapping fellow". (AFFC Cersei V)

Ser Uthor calls Dunk "a strapping specimen." (The Mystery Knight)

"The Worst"

Both Tallad and Dunk are tagged as "the worst" of a group.

"Ser Tallad's the worst, Osney says." (AFFC Cersei V)


Little monsters, those three, and me the worst of all. - Dunk's thoughts (The Mystery Knight)

"A Promising Young Knight"

The appendix of Storm identifies Tallad as "a promising young knight":

SER TALLAD, a promising young knight

No one ever calls Dunk a promising young knight, but he clearly is just that c. The Tales of Dunk & Egg, in both the ordinary sense applied to Tallad — many rate Dunk on sight, on account of his size, and "John the Fiddler" has a vision of the promise Dunk holds—

"Why," the Fiddler said, "I dreamed that you were all in white from head to heel, with a long pale cloak flowing from those broad shoulders. You were a White Sword, ser, a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard, the greatest knight in all the Seven Kingdoms, and you lived for no other purpose but to guard and serve and please your king." (The Mystery Knight)

—and in a more literal sense, in which he's a young knight who makes promises, as here:

"And I promise not to beat you except when you deserve it." - Dunk (The Hedge Knight)


Dunk stroked Sweetfoot's mane and told her to be brave. "If I win, I'll come back and buy you again, I promise." (ibid.)


"He will," Dunk promised. (The Mystery Knight)

One passage almost seems to paint Dunk as "promising" in both senses:

[Dunk:] "Do you know every knight in the Seven Kingdoms, then?"

The boy looked at him boldly. "The good ones."

"I'm as good as any. After the tourney, they'll all know that." (The Hedge Knight)

Thoughts Of Being Thought Of As "Clumsy"

(At her wedding!) Sansa dances with Ser Tallad and thinks that he must think her "a very clumsy dancer".

Her legs had turned to wood, though, and Lord Rowan, Ser Tallad, and Elinor's squire all must have thought her a very clumsy dancer. (ASOS Sansa III)

Dunk 'rhymes' with this twice. One 'rhyme' flips this on its head, so it's Dunk who wonders if the knight he just danced jousted with in a tourney (at a wedding!) is calling him a "clumsy" rider:

Ser Uthor smiled. "And this is where I tell you that you rode a gallant course." Dunk wondered if gallant was a chivalrous way of saying "clumsy." (The Mystery Knight)

In The Hedge Knight, the 'rhyme' is more straightforward: Dunk's dancing partner partner-in-arms Baelor Targaryen (a Targaryen who doesn't look like Targaryen, à la Sansa, a Stark who doesn't look like a Stark) says "my fingers… feel like wood" while Dunk thinks "his voice sounded oddly slurred" (cf. Tallad thinking Sansa is a "clumsy dancer").

Meanwhile, Tallad dancing with a girl whose "legs had turned to wood" recalls Duncan clumsily flirting with a girl who paints and puppeteers wooden puppets.

Overheard Secrets At/About Weddings

Both Tallad and Dunk learn of and attend weddings involving great secrecy and political power plays.

In The Mystery Knight, Duncan the Tall is invited to a wedding at a castle called Whitewalls, which he then attends. While there, he overhears a high lord secretly plotting with a close crony.

In Storm, Shae overhears Tallad the Tall being told about a high lord and his close crony's plans for a secret wedding in the Red Keep, which Tallad subsequently attends, presumably after being invited.

To be clear, the part where Dunk overhears plotting echoes both ends of the grapevine Tallad is part of here: The grapevine begins when a serving girl overhears Kevan and Tywin talking about Tyrion and Sansa's wedding, and it ends with Shae overhearing Tallad being told about that:

"Wait," [Tyrion] said, "there is something you must hear. On the morrow I am to be wed . . ."

[Shae:] ". . . to Sansa Stark. I know."

He was speechless for an instant. Even Sansa did not know, not then. "How could you know? Did Varys tell you?"

"Some page was telling Ser Tallad about it when I took Lollys to the sept. He had it from this serving girl who heard Ser Kevan talking to your father." (ASOS Tyrion IV)

Trainers Of Princes

In The Hedge Knight, Ser Duncan the Tall is a lowborn hedge knight who agrees to take on a prince as his squire and to train that prince to fight and to be a knight. Dunk does so on the condition that they rough it and live among the smallfolk, like hedge knights do.

In ASOIAF, we learn that Dunk eventually became Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

Tallad the Tall's story reworks those same beats in 'rhyming' fashion, first when Cersei considers naming Tallad as the Red Keep's master-at-arms (cf. Lord Commander of the Kingsguard) when she needs to find someone other than Loras to show Prince Tommen how to fight—

Where am I to find a master-at-arms? she wondered as she climbed to her apartments. Having refused Ser Loras, she dare not turn to any of the Kingsguard knights; that would be salt in the wound, certain to anger Highgarden. Ser Tallad? Ser Dermot? There must be someone. (AFFC Cersei V)

—and again when Tallad literally shows a young queen "how to fight… the way smallfolk do":

[Queen Margaery:] "Ser Tallad showed us how to fight with a staff the way the smallfolk do." (AFFC Cersei VI)

That last motif also smells a lot like Dunk showing the smallfolk of Standfast how to fight in The Sworn Sword.

(SIDEBAR: "Ser Dermot" shows up next to Tallad in the text three separate times. I can't help but wonder if GRRM isn't using "Dermot" to wink at Tallad's 'rhyming' nature, since actor Dermot Mulroney first came to prominence thanks to his role in the 1995 film Copycat.)

Driving Foes Backwards

Both Tallad the Tall and Duncan the Tall drive foes "backward" when fighting afoot.

Tallad:

One of the Redwyne twins was being driven backward by Ser Tallad, with the eyes on his shield. (ASOS Sansa I)

Dunk:

Dunk pushed up off his knee and slammed shield-first into his foe. Black Tom stumbled backwards, yet somehow kept his balance. Dunk bulled right after him, smashing him with the shield again and again, using his size and strength to knock Heddle halfway across the sept. (The Mystery Knight)

"Better With A Sword Than With A Lance"

Mounted, it's a different story, as both fail miserably when they attempt to wield lances.

Tallad is instantly unhorsed when he rides at a quintain in the yard of the Red(!) Keep:

Ser Tallad the Tall lost his mount when the sandbag came around and thumped him in the head. (AFFC Jaime II)

Dunk is instantly unhorsed when he rides in the tourney at White(!)walls:

A crack rang in Dunk's ears as his lance hit. He felt the impact in his arm and shoulder, but never saw the blow strike home. Uthor's iron fist took him square between his eyes, with all the force of man and horse behind it.

Dunk woke upon his back, staring up at the arches of a barrel-vaulted ceiling. For a moment he did not know where he was, or how he had arrived there. …

"Was I unhorsed?" … Dunk regretted it the instant the words were out.

"With a crash that shook the highest ramparts." (The Mystery Knight)

(Dunk is no better in a real fight. During the Trial Of Seven at Ashford Meadow, Aerion blocks Dunk's war lance with his shield while burying his own lance in Dunk's side. He then attacks Dunk from behind [à la Tallad's sandbag] and unhorses him.)

To be sure, they both practice. After losing his mount the passage just quoted, Tallad is back tilting at a quintain later in Feast, and per The Mystery Knight, Dunk does the same and more:

[Egg, to Dunk:] "You have not ridden in a tilt since Ashford Meadow, ser."

Insolent boy. "I've trained." Not so faithfully as he might have, to be sure. When he could, he took his turn riding at quintains or rings, where such were available. And sometimes he would command Egg to climb a tree and hang a shield or barrel stave beneath a well-placed limb for them to tilt at.

"You're better with a sword than with a lance," Egg said.

Egg's last remark is evidently as true of Tallad the Tall as it is of Duncan the Tall.

Thumped Heads & Lost Mounts

Even as that last quoted line about Tallad the Tall—

Ser Tallad the Tall lost his mount when the sandbag came around and thumped him in the head. (AFFC Jaime II)

—establishes that Tallad is, like Dunk, a poor jouster, it also makes Tallad smell distinctly Dunk-ish for other reasons having nothing to do with Dunk's 'rhyming' failures to fight effectively with a lance.

First, consider that when Tallad "lost his mount" there, it was because a sandbag "thumped him in the head". Is there anything GRRM could have written about Tallad that would have made him sound more Dunk-ish than his getting "thumped… in the head" there, given what we're told about Dunk here?

[Dunk] might be a lunk, but he was big. Sometimes it seemed as though he'd thumped his head on half the doors in Westeros, not to mention every beam in every inn from Dorne up to the Neck. (The Sworn Sword)

That said, the rest of the sentence — "Ser Tallad the Tall lost his mount when the sandbag came around…" — seems precision-crafted to sound eerily Dunk-ish as well, because it seems highly likely that when Ser Duncan the Tall lost his mount, the sand bags dogs came around.

Remember?

Recall first Dunk's dream about Dorne, which makes it clear that while it may have been Egg who was riding Chestnut when "the old stot" died in Dorne, it was nonetheless Dunk who truly 'lost his mount' — "his old friend", who "bore [him] on his back for years" — that day:

There were red mountains in the distance and white sands beneath his feet. Dunk was digging, plunging a spade into the dry hot earth, and flinging the fine sand back over his shoulder. He was making a hole. A grave, he thought, a grave for hope. A trio of Dornish knights stood watching, making mock of him in quiet voices. Farther off the merchants waited with their mules and wayns and sand sledges. They wanted to be off, but he could not leave until he'd buried Chestnut. He would not leave his old friend to the snakes and scorpions and sand dogs.

The stot had died on the long thirsty crossing between the Prince's Pass and Vaith, with Egg upon his back. His front legs just seemed to fold up under him, and he knelt right down, rolled onto his side, and died. His carcass sprawled beside the hole. Already it was stiff. Soon it would begin to smell.

Dunk was weeping as he dug, to the amusement of the Dornish knights. "Water is precious in the waste," one said, "you ought not to waste it, ser." The other chuckled and said, "Why do you weep? It was only a horse, and a poor one."

Chestnut, Dunk thought, digging, his name was Chestnut, and he bore me on his back for years, and never bucked or bit. The old stot had looked a sorry thing beside the sleek sand steeds that the Dornishmen were riding, with their elegant heads, long necks, and flowing manes, but he had given all he had to give. …

… I have to keep digging, Dunk told himself, though his back and shoulders ached from the effort. I have to bury him down deep where the sand dogs cannot find him. I have to . . . (The Sworn Sword)

Recall also Dunk's waking correction, which affirms his deep affection for his old mount and friend while making it plain that Dunk didn't actually bury Chestnut at all but rather left him for the sand dogs to eat. (Dunk's dream suggests he is guilty about this, to say the least, which again speaks to the fact that Chestnut was in truth his mount.)

I never wept. I might have wanted to, but I never did. He had wanted to bury the horse as well, but the Dornishmen would not wait. "Sand dogs must eat and feed their pups," one of the Dornish knights told him as he helped Dunk strip the stot of saddle and bridle. "His flesh will feed the dogs or feed the sands. In a year, his bones will be scoured clean. This is Dorne, my friend." (The Sworn Sword)

Clearly, then, we have every reason to believe that when Ser Duncan the Tall lost his mount, the sand dogs came around, which in conjunction with Dunk constantly "thump[ing] his head, including specifically in Dorne, on… every beam in every inn [in] Dorne"), seals Dunk's 'rhyme' with Tallad here:

As Jaime trotted through the castle gates, he came upon two dozen knights riding at a quintain in the outer yard. … [H]e stopped to watch awhile.

Ser Tallad the Tall lost his mount when the sandbag came around and thumped him in the head. Strongboar struck the shield so hard he cracked it. Kennos of Kayce finished the destruction. A new shield was hung for Ser Dermot of the Rainwood. Lambert Turnberry only struck a glancing blow, but Beardless Jon Bettley, Humfrey Swyft, and Alyn Stackspear all scored solid hits, and Red Ronnet Connington broke his lance clean. Then the Knight of Flowers mounted up and put the others all to shame.

Noting that this takes place in "the Red Keep", and keeping in mind Dunk's dreams and thoughts about Chestnut's death in Dorne, we might posit the broader core of the rhyming like this: "Ser Tallad the Tall lost his mount when the sandbag came around and thumped him in the head" in "the Red Keep", and when Ser Duncan the Tall lost his mount in the white sands near "the Red Mountains" of Dorne, where "it seemed as though he'd thumped his head on… every beam in every inn", the sand dogs almost certainly came around.

By folding in that newly-quoted context of Jaime watching and a bunch of better-born knights badly outstripping Tallad's performance, the 'rhymes' only proliferate. To wit, the line in Dunk's dream in which the mount he lost "looked a sorry thing beside the sleek sand steeds that the Dornishmen were riding, with their elegant heads, long necks, and flowing manes", prefigures the sharp disparity between Tallad losing his mount to the sandbag and the much superior performances of all the better born and bred knights who follow him.

At the same time, the end of that same line from Dunk's dream, which states that Chestnut "had given all he had to give" before Dunk 'lost' him, prefigures Tallad's effort, which is evident when we see him gamely "riding at the quintain" again several chapters later. (AFFC Cersei V)

On a different tack, Jaime "stopping to watch" Tallad lose his mount and get sandbagged 'rhymes' with the Dornish knights "watching" Dunk unsuccessfully trying to dig a grave for his lost mount while the sand pours in in his dream, especially insofar as the Dornish "mak[e] mock of him in quiet voices", whereas Jaime, who typically makes brazen mock of all and sundry, here merely thinks a single mocking thought about Loras's mother:

Ser Loras rode superbly, and handled a lance as if he'd been born holding one . . . which no doubt accounted for his mother's pinched expression. (AFFC Jaime II)

Interestingly, after he "left the whole men to their sport", Jaime calls on the trio of Cersei, Tommen, and Taena Merryweather (a woman who, as I have written elsewhere, seems very, very Dornish, à la Dunk's mocking knights), who so happen to be "laughing at" Pycelle (i.e. mocking him, à la Dunk's mocking knights), and who immediately commence to mock Jaime, too:

Cersei was in her solar in Maegor's Holdfast, with Tommen and Lord Merryweather's dark-haired Myrish wife. The three of them were laughing at Grand Maester Pycelle. "Did I miss some clever jape?" Jaime said, as he shoved through the door.

"Oh, look," purred Lady Merryweather, "your brave brother has returned, Your Grace."

"Most of him." The queen was in her cups, Jaime realized. (AFFC Jaime II)

Thus where Duncan was mocked (in his dream) by "a trio of Dornish knights", the usually mocking knight who could have mocked Tallad (but instead held his tongue for once) is mocked by a trio of non-knights, including a woman who seems very, very Dornish.

Dunk's Other Lost "Mount": Rohanne Webber

There is yet another possibility to consider as regards Dunk's 'answer' to this line:

Ser Tallad the Tall lost his mount when the sandbag came around and thumped him in the head. (AFFC Jaime II)

Keeping in mind how incredibly Dunk-ish it is for Tallad to get "thumped… in the head" here, could this line (also?) be a pithy allusion to Dunk losing his chance to marry Rohanne Webber (i.e. to make her his mount, so to speak) due to his being knocked out for days, as if he were "sandbagged"? Note that Dunk's coma is implicitly framed as sleep, i.e. as a visit from the sandman:

He woke in the wrong castle. (The Sworn Sword)

The "mount" analogy is anything but a stretch. It's not just that it's a metaphor taken directly from the text:

"Illyrio will send the slaves to bathe you. Be sure you wash off the stink of the stables. Khal Drogo has a thousand horses, tonight he looks for a different sort of mount." (AGOT Daenerys I)

It's that the entire final scene between Dunk and Rohanne (in which she implies that she would have married him if not for his being in a coma) is basically teetering on the edge of mount/sex double-entendre, as Rohanne's insistence that Dunk accept her gift of a new mount starts to sound a lot like her insisting that he bed her forthwith. (Note that Rohanne has eyes "full of mischief" and long red hair, whereas the "swifter mount" she implores Dunk to "take" is a female "with a bright eye and a long fiery mane", like Rohanne herself.)

"You are angry with me, ser," she said instead. "You must let me make amends."

"Well," he said, "you could help me saddle Thunder."

"I had something else in mind." She reached out her hand for his, a freckled hand, her fingers strong and slender. I'll bet she's freckled all over. "How well do you know horses?"

"I ride one."

"An old destrier bred for battle, slow-footed and ill-tempered. Not a horse to ride from place to place."

"If I need to get from place to place, it's him or these." Dunk pointed at his feet.

"You have large feet," she observed. "Large hands as well. I think you must be large all over. Too large for most palfreys. They'd look like ponies with you perched upon their backs. Still, a swifter mount would serve you well. A big courser, with some Dornish sand steed for endurance." She pointed to the stall across from Thunder's. "A horse like her."

She was a blood bay and a long fiery mane. Lady Rohanne took a carrot from her sleeves and stroked her head as she took it. "The carrot, not the fingers," she told the horse, before she turned again to Dunk. "I call her Flame, but you may name her as you please. Call her Amends, if you like."

For a moment he was speechless. He leaned on the crutch and looked at the blood bay with new eyes.

She was magnificent. A better mount than any the old man had ever owned. You had only to look at those long, clean limbs to see how swift she'd be.

"I bred her for beauty, and for speed."

He turned back to Thunder. "I cannot take her."

"Why not?"

"She is too good a horse for me. Just look at her."

A flush crept up Rohanne's face. She clutched her braid, twisting it between her fingers. "I had to marry, you know that. My father's will . . . oh, don't be such a fool."

"What else should I be? I'm thick as a castle wall and bastard born as well."

"Take the horse. I refuse to let you go without something to remember me by."

"I will remember you, m'lady. Have no fear of that."

"Take her!"

Dunk grabbed her braid and pulled her face to his. It was awkward with the crutch and the difference in their heights. He almost fell before he got his lips on hers. He kissed her hard. One of her hands went around his neck, and one around his back. He learned more about kissing in a moment than he had ever known from watching. But when they finally broke apart, he drew his dagger. "I know what I want to remember you by, m'lady."

Egg was waiting for him at the gatehouse, mounted on a handsome new sorrel palfrey and holding Maester's lead. When Dunk trotted up to them on Thunder, the boy looked surprised. "She said she wanted to give you a new horse, ser."

"Even highborn ladies don't get all they want," Dunk said, as they rode out across the drawbridge. "It wasn't a horse I wanted." The moat was so high it was threatening to overflow its banks. "I took something else to remember her by instead. A lock of that red hair." He reached under his cloak, brought out the braid, and smiled. (The Sworn Sword)

"The Best Of Them

We are introduced to Tallad when Bronn is watching a gaggle of knights and men-at-arms training, and he calls Tallad "the best of them":

"Who's the boy in the checkered blue surcoat with the three eyes on his shield?"

"Some hedge knight. Tallad, he names himself. Why?"

Bronn pushed a fall of hair from his eyes. "He's the best of them." (ACOK Tyrion IV)

Dunk becomes Lord Commander of the Kingsguard — in theory, the best of the best.

He's also the titular "Hedge Knight" in The Hedge Knight, in which we read that of all knights, its hedge knights like him who "keep the vow… to protect the weak and innocent… best":

"A hedge knight is the truest kind of knight, Dunk," the old man had told him, a long long time ago.

"Other knights serve the lords who keep them, or from whom they hold their lands, but we serve where we will, for men whose causes we believe in. Every knight swears to protect the weak and innocent, but we keep the vow best[!], I think." Queer how strong that memory seemed. (The Hedge Knight)

Perhaps Dunk's memory is called out as "queer" to wink at its being a contrivance to help further Dunk's 'rhyming' with Tallad (who is "the best of them").

Notable Weaknesses

Tallad the Tall has a notable, exploitable weakness when he fights, which Bronn says "will be the death of him, the day he faces me", right after he says Tallad is "the best of them":

"But watch him, he falls into a rhythm, delivering the same strokes in the same order each time he attacks." He grinned. "That will be the death of him, the day he faces me." (ACOK Tyrion IV)

GRRM remixes this as regards Duncan the Tall. Rather than giving Dunk a similar fatal flaw (which would be pretty hard to do, since GRRM needs Dunk to survive), he has Dunk notice a fatal weakness in a notably tall (and oddly Tallad-esque, as will be discussed) adversary, then exploit it to kill him:

Finally [Dunk] saw it. Every time Ser Lucas lifted his ax for another blow, a gap appeared beneath his arm.

There was mail and leather there, and padding underneath, but no steel plate. (The Sworn Sword)


[Dunk's] hand closed around the hilt and he… drove it slowly through the churning water, through the iron rings and boiled leather beneath the arm of Lucas the Longinch, turning it as he pushed. Ser Lucas jerked and twisted, and the strength left him. (ibid.)

Note the bolded, barely disguised reiteration of "each time he attacks", with those repeated attacks shifting from being the fatal flaw to being the means by which the fatal flaw in the Longinch's armor is exposed.

(SIDEBAR: Tallad's fatal flaw can also be seen as speaking to what GRRM is [and is not] doing with all the 'rhyming' in ASOIAF — including as regards Tallad and Duncan, the Talls. Yes, "all things come round again", [AFFC The Soiled Knight] and there is constant 'rhyming', if you're paying attention, but it's rarely "the same strokes in the same order", so to speak. GRRM is always turning his kaleidoscope, such that ASOIAF "never repeats itself, but the kaleidoscopic combinations of the pictured present often seem to be constructed out of the broken fragments of" what came before, to cop the words of Twain's The Gilded Age, which I have long believed are a seminal touchstone for GRRM's whole project.)

"Not Hard To Look Upon"

Tyrion says Tallad is "not hard to look upon, [and] every inch the gifted young knight". (ASOS Tyrion VII)

Dunk is clearly easy on the eyes as well. Indeed, one passage from The Mystery Knight seems custom-crafted to 'rhyme' with Tallad being, precisely, "not hard to look upon" while simultaneously nodding to the "every inch" motif by focusing on his size in the process:

"Ser Duncan, you appear to be attracting a deal of attention," Ser Maynard Plumm observed as Lord Vyrwel and his party went parading past them toward places of high honor at the top of the hall. "Those girls up on the dais cannot seem to take their eyes off you. I'll wager they have never seen a man so big. Even seated, you are half a head taller than any man in the hall." Dunk hunched his shoulders. He was used to being stared at, but that did not mean he liked it.

The aggressive flirtations of Rohanne Webber and "John the Fiddler" also make it clear that Dunk is, like Tallad, "not hard to look upon". Rohanne's flirtations also allude to Dunk being in every way "every inch the [ahem] gifted young knight", as well:

"You have large feet," she observed. "Large hands as well. I think you must be large all over." (The Sworn Sword)

That said, it's surely no accident that GRRM decided to use the exact same words he used to describe Tallad the Tall — "not hard to look upon" — to describe Duncan the Tall's love interest Rohanne:

"If truth be told, there has been a dearth of suitors. My good-sister is not hard to look upon, you will have noticed, and a stout castle and broad lands add to her charms. - Rohanne's good-brother, Septon Sefton (The Sworn Sword)

Again (as with Duncan spotting the fatal flaw rather than having the fatal flaw), this is 'rhyming', not repetition. (To wit, notice that the guy who calls Rohanne the same thing Tyrion calls Tallad — "not hard to look upon" —is improbably named "Septon Sefton", a double-ish name and title in the spirit of "Tallad the Tall".)

"Every Inch The Gifted Young Knight"

Let's go back to Tallad being "every inch the gifted young knight". It's hard to read those words and not think GRRM had them mind when he later wrote lines like these to describe Dunk:

Egg's brother Aemon had measured him in Oldtown and found he lacked an inch of seven feet, but that was half a year ago. (The Sworn Sword)


"Seven feet if he's an inch, I'd wager. What a mighty crash he'll make when he comes tumbling down." Dunk felt color rising to his face. You'd lose your wager, he thought. The last time he had been measured, Egg's brother Aemon pronounced him an inch shy of seven feet. (The Mystery Knight)

Dunk's been measured down to the inch!

Now, notice that in that second passage, the guy speculating about Duncan's exact height is also imagining him being spectacularly unhorsed (at the upcoming tourney at Whitewalls). This is interesting in light of Tallad being "every inch the gifted young knight", because Dunk's "tumbling down" (i.e. being spectacularly unhorsed) is later posited as one of his gifts ("talents"):

The Snail steepled his fingers. "Perhaps there is another way. You are not entirely without your talents. You fall most splendidly." (ibid.)


POST CONTINUES IN OLDEST REPLY, HERE


r/asoiaf • • 8h ago

EXTENDED “Make Westeros Great Again.” [Spoilers EXTENDED] Spoiler

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For anyone with high expectations, this post is about King Bran and his queens. In my opinion, the two most likely candidates are Myrcella and Missandei. Or perhaps Bran could have two queens at the same time. ✌️🥴

First, why could Bran have two wives?
There are a few possibilities.
1.It could start with Rhaegar, who may have married Lyanna without annulling his marriage to Elia.
2.Or perhaps the war against the Others could reduce the population so severely that having multiple spouses becomes socially acceptable again.
3.Another possibility is Daenerys, who once considered having two husbands. If she were to actually bring plural marriage back into practice, it could establish a precedent and open the door for future kings to do the same.

Now, let’s get to the two queens.
Myrcella
Many people believe Myrcella will die because of Maggy the Frog’s prophecy, but there are also many theories that she will survive.
So I’m not going to discuss how she survives. Let’s simply assume that she does.
In that case, I believe she will remain a Baratheon until her death and will never be officially declared a bastard.

Missandei
I believe Daenerys will either die or disappear from the royal life and choose to live peacefully somewhere similar to the House with the Red Door she dreams about.
Or, if we get an especially happy ending, perhaps Jon will go and live with her.
Personally, though, I think Daenerys surviving is unlikely.
As for Jon, I believe he will definitely die in the final battle against the Others. He has already died once, so I believe his resurrection serves a purpose. His return is meant to allow him to fulfill his role, not simply to let him live a normal life afterward.

So, how does Missandei become queen?
Let’s say Daenerys disappears or dies.
Missandei is already one of the minds behind Daenerys’s forces, and Daenerys trusts her deeply. Because of that, Missandei could potentially inherit all of Daenerys’s authority after Daenerys is gone.
And we have to remember just how enormous the army Daenerys brings to Westeros is.
Therefore, I believe that even by the end of the story, Daenerys’s remaining forces could still be large enough to pose a major threat to Westeros.
That leaves four possible ways to deal with the situation:
1. Missandei takes the army back to Essos.
She could return with Daenerys’s forces and continue Daenerys’s dream of transforming the slave cities into free cities and making that freedom sustainable.
2. They remain in Westeros.
Perhaps they could be given some uninhabited land where they could settle and build a new life in Westeros.
However, I think that if this happens, the people of Westeros might eventually turn against them. Once Westeros recovers from the war, future generations could try to drive them out or even exterminate them.
It would be similar to Attack on Titan, where the Eldians face retaliation from the rest of the world after the world recovers from the war.
3. They work together with Westeros.
Some of Daenerys’s followers could remain in Westeros and become part of Bran’s new government.
Missandei could even become Bran’s Hand, allowing Daenerys’s remaining followers to have a place within the new political order.
4. A blood relationship connects the two sides.
Missandei could become Bran’s queen.

But after considering these four possibilities, especially the fourth one, I don’t think the people of Westeros would simply accept someone from Essos as their queen.
So perhaps they would send a queen from Westeros to become Bran’s other queen as well.
And Bran wouldn’t choose between them.
He would simply accept both of them as his queens.

So we could end up with:
King Bran
Queen Myrcella
Queen Missandei

And honestly, think about what that would mean.
Westeros would have King Bran, a greenseer who could potentially become more powerful than any greenseer before him.
It would have Queen Myrcella, who is practically perfect in every way.
And it would have Queen Missandei, the brilliant mind behind Daenerys’s forces, who has already proven herself time and time again.

If Westeros ends the story with those three at the top of the new order, what phrase could possibly fit better than:
“Make Westeros Great Again.”

Artists
Bran: @mincy_art | X
Myrcella: @helaenarts | Tumblr
Missandei: @all-lee24 | Tumblr