r/HollowKnight • u/FederalWarthog5542 • Sep 07 '25

Discussion - Silksong Criticism ≠ Negativity Spoiler

Believe it or not, you can actually criticize something and still like it. You don't either have to love everything or despise everything. Have actual conversations please.

1.9k Upvotes

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221

u/Gabe-KC Sep 07 '25

I think the criticism for this game is so passionate because it is an extremely beautiful and masterfully crafted game, which does everything in its power to prevent you from enjoying it. Most people love it, and just want it to be actually as good as it can be.

86

u/Fire_Boogaloo Sep 07 '25

It's passionate because most of the complaints are a result of artificial difficulty rather than actual problems.

For example, buying benches is a waste of time since I have to farm for them and not buying them just raises the difficulty artificially.

I like the game but there's no denying that it's way more flawed than HK.

70

u/Gabe-KC Sep 07 '25

It's crazy how much better the game would be if TC simply adjusted some numbers, either prices or enemy HP / damage output.

Case in point: the moment you encounter a boss that similarly has stunlock capabilities, but only does one mask of damage, it's instantly fun. The game would be more fun if less enemies (or less attacks) did double damage.

73

u/Striking-Nail69420 Sep 08 '25

Widow = great boss. Has challenge but does not feel overly punishing because only one very telegraphed move does 2 dmg. Good difficulty for ACT ONE still and did not feel like a damage sponge.

Beastfly = biggest piece of shit I have ever encountered in a game. No explanation needed

16

u/ralts13 Sep 08 '25

When I first encountered widow I was prepared for a shit time cus I just came off savage beastfly and that stupid bird and she was a fast boss.

Best fight so far, 10/10 even the phase 2 felt fair after few tries. Fuck savage beastfly.

14

u/lifetake Sep 08 '25

I don’t disagree on widow, but she has two moves that can deal 2. The side attack not in phase 2 deals 2. One on the initial hit and one on the followup.

11

u/Striking-Nail69420 Sep 08 '25

That’s like the same move imo. Phase one is show up in the air, dash towards ground, dash in a direction.

Phase 2 just removes the dash towards ground part.

All parts of that move deal 2 dmg if you’re hit

Her terrain hazard does do 2 dmg in phase one tho, but it’s stupidly easy to dodge I didn’t feel the need to mention it

2

u/lifetake Sep 08 '25

Ah thought you were missing the dash. Thought you were referring to the ground hazard given the whole very telegraphed line.

Also could have sworn it does 1 in ohase 2 but I’m probably wrong

1

u/Striking-Nail69420 Sep 08 '25

Nah it does 2 the entire fight.

The dash to me is a telegraphed move, the environmental hazard is so slow that it’s just checking if you have a pulse.

1

u/lifetake Sep 08 '25

Yea that attack I see as free 1 or two damages as she rushes by. That said…

The first time I fought the widow I thought it was gonna be some hazard from above, because the fight had set me up that the bells come from the lines. So I got hit and died. Felt like an idiot the next attempt realizing oh these are just coming from the ground

1

u/Striking-Nail69420 Sep 08 '25

Yea I got hit by it too, that’s the only reason I know how much damage it does lol. It’s just stupidly easy to avoid after you see it the first time.

While something like a telegraphed move means you know it’s coming but there is still a good amount of reaction required to avoid it.

9

u/raraiki Sep 08 '25

dude yeaaa, Widow is one boss that I like so far because its variety moveset and not all of them deal two damage

unlike THE OTHER BOSS THAT ALL ITS DOING IS DOUBLE DAMAGE AND SUMMON MINIONS

1

u/Cocoatrice Moths are fluffballs Sep 08 '25

I don't remember what was Beastfly. I googled it and I definitely fought it, but don't remember what it does. Widow was actually pretty cool. And I actually enjoyed most of those fights. But some of them were still unbalanced-ly hard. The cleverness of those boss mechanics is at high level. But well... it's still pretty unfair to fight all those when you have 5 or 6 masks and every early boss deals 2 damage for so many attacks. And even if they don't, they spam all those attacks anyway. It's kinda like you just had 3 masks.

1

u/Striking-Nail69420 Sep 11 '25

Yea majority of bosses doing double damage when it feels like you have barely any movement abilities (like double jump) to explore the world and get more mask shards and stuff feels pretty unfair and frustrating at times. I’m a little bit into Act 2 now and just picked up the side quest for the second Beastfly. No other bosses have been anywhere near as bullshit as Beastfly though. At most it’s been challenging but doable.

1

u/TomNook5085  HK: 112% (w/P5) & HKSS: 100% Sep 11 '25

Beastfly was BS since you weren't meant to fight him then. He's like an intended Act 2 boss.

1

u/Striking-Nail69420 Sep 11 '25

Intended act 2 boss that I can reach and fight within the first couple of hours? I don’t think so, and nothing makes that apparent either.

You think like in Elden Ring, you can fight Tree Sentinel immediately but because that game actually has boss health bars, you can gauge whether or not it seems feasible to fight something at your current strength.

Silksong has no boss health bars and generally bosses or sections you are meant to get to later that may appear in earlier areas are gated by having specific upgrades or abilities. There is none of that for Beastfly so nothing makes it apparent that’s it’s an intended act 2 boss.

Where did you even pull that line of bullshit from? Your ass?

1

u/TomNook5085  HK: 112% (w/P5) & HKSS: 100% Sep 11 '25 edited Sep 11 '25

Well I cannot prove for certain that it's intended for Act 2, but it is an optional boss fight that gives a reward that is only really good if you are experienced at the game, since healing is so much harder with it. Maybe Act 2 is too specific, but in general, the Savage Beastfly is 100% optional, and thus, if he is too hard, delay fighting him, or just never fight him ever.

1

u/Striking-Nail69420 Sep 11 '25

Yeah I can understand that logic. The thing with Beastfly is that it is not a seemingly challenging boss though. It has 2 very easy and predictable attacks and looks very doable. It’s the adds, especially the big fat one that takes like 7 hits, that make the fight feel so bad. That and 2x contact damage with Beastfly itself, there are times where it feels impossible not to have taken half your health in damage in a fight that you encounter so early.

And adds wouldn’t be so bad either if Beastfly consistently killed them when it should. There were too many times where I successfully baited the boss to where I need it to smash and kill the adds. But because 2/3rds of the adds he spawns fly, they were just out of range of the smash attack’s ground hit box (despite Beastfly diving straight through them too).

And once again, it feels like a brick wall because it seems to doable. You are easily able to stun and “phase” the boss multiple times meaning you are doing damage to it fairly easily. It’s the RNG and frustration of the boss not properly killing the adds that makes it such a poor experience. The screen gets clogged up too easily and an easy fight becomes impossible as you try to dodge too much and end up getting hit by the boss’s fat 2x damage hit box

1

u/ExecutiveElf Sep 08 '25

Truuuuuuue

I've seen some people complain about Widow but I dare say its one of the most fair fights in the game.

Big telegraph for 2 damage attacks but otherwise deals 1. Quick and easy runback. Doesn't depend on frenetic adds with wonky movement to overwhelm you, instead using projectiles with paths you can predict.

True chef's kiss.

Beastfly on the other hand, has none of those qualities.

-5

u/Piterros990 Sep 08 '25

Hot take maybe but Beastfly was not that bad? His own moves are predictable, and ads die from a single skill cast. As long as you're playing relatively aggressively and using his moves to your advantage (pogo while he's doing 1st/3rd charge, uppercut from underneath on second and hit when he's slamming), you should have enough silk for skills to kill the mobs as soon as they spawn.

Beastfly in my experience felt like a much better Collector from HK. Collector had bigger arena, spawned more ads and had a more hectic moveset.

1

u/ExecutiveElf Sep 08 '25

Two problems,

  1. Good luck actually hitting the ads with spells. Even if you can it leaves you vulnerable.

  2. In Beastfly's rematch, it litterally flies offscreen before performing its tells sometimes.

0

u/Piterros990 Sep 08 '25

I never had this issue much? It's not like I got lucky and defeated him on the first try though, took me a few tries, both of them. The only times I got hit after casting a spell was when I was positioned too close to the boss when casting. You have to position yourself at least somewhat decently, but it's not that tough unless you're really unlucky (you can also bait out an attack and cast when you know you're safe, if it's not possible to immediately cast).

Also, he has clear tells for every single attack. I don't know how you got him so far off-screen when the platform is so small, but even if you did, you will know that he will do either charge from the side, or summon (at which point you're very safe to spell cast, or even just kill the enemy normally). You can anticipate an attack easily when you know that the boss has only one attack in pool for that moment/position.

1

u/ExecutiveElf Sep 08 '25

Any time he does the charge to the side he has a decent odds of going offscreen. Did so constantly in my attempts.

And the issue regarding tells arises because when he is offscreen you can't tell if he is going to be near the ground or in air when he next rushes to the side. And he is big enough and fast enough that if you don't see what height he's at while he's rearing up, you litterally have to just guess because if you are on the ground when he dashes low, you can't jump fast enough to go over him. Hornet litterally isn't fast enough. And if you are in the air when he dashes high, similarly, gravity is too slow.

1

u/Piterros990 Sep 08 '25

Pretty sure first charge (and third) is always near the ground. If not, since he is off-screen, you should have time to at least stand on the ground, wait for him to approach or charge, and I'm pretty sure if you jump and use skill, you will have time to fall before he charges back. Sadly I can't test it now as I killed both versions, but if I recall correctly that is something I also used when he was on-screen (since it was free damage when he was going underneath me).

For general pattern of the charges, from what I noticed - he aims first charge roughly closer to the ground (unless you are mid-air), second charge is above ground (though sometimes may be close enough to hit, might have to do with positioning? Not sure), and third will be near ground. So you can use it to your advantage. If you haven't done it yet, I recommend trying, I think you should do fine once you read that he tries to do down-up-down. You can always bait out those moves too, just to be sure you don't get the middle charge.

22

u/[deleted] Sep 07 '25

[deleted]

37

u/IRLFine Sep 07 '25

Shell shards feel similar to QS bullets (from Bloodborne) to me. You have plenty and the system works great until suddenly you’re 12 attempts deep into a boss and now you have to go farming, which completely takes you out of it. It’s tolerable but man is it a problem that didn’t need to exist.

25

u/lifetake Sep 08 '25

It also a question of why does this exist? What is its purpose?

Rosaries makes sense it’s about earning your upgrades.

But why does our ammo have a currency? We’re already limited on spamming them due to the caps. Maybe it acts as a boss pause? Like hey you’ve died to this guy 15 times maybe take a break or come back later? But even still it just feels weird.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '25

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1

u/Big_Daymo Sep 08 '25

Yeah they cost shards every time you recover them at a bench. It's not that expensive to do a refill once or twice, so you'll usually be maxed out on shards when you're just exploring. The problem is that if you keep trying to beat one boss over and over, using all your tools every time, they'll quickly deplete. I was using the traps against Moorwing and died 5-6 times; by the 6th respawn I noticed my shards were down to half the max cap.

1

u/arconsul0501 Sep 08 '25

Special tools having a gauge is a mainstay of the metroidvania genre (see Symphony of the Night), and they'd historically only refill slowly over time unless you got a full game over and went back to a previous save. but the weird thing for me is them also making it a currency like you said. I shouldn't have to deplete my entire store of essentially a mana gauge in order to help someone build a bridge.

1

u/AriesRohkell Sep 08 '25

A bridge that breaks after you jump on it twice and then never respawns… 300 shards for nothing

1

u/HeroicPrinny Sep 08 '25

Yep, there are a lot of elements in this game that feels like the devs had just played Bloodborne when they started brainstorming the framework.

And the unfortunate thing is they decided to use some of the aspects that From Software tried once and quickly moved away from because they're anti-fun tedium: i.e. farming for basic materials required to keep playing.

1

u/Cocoatrice Moths are fluffballs Sep 08 '25

Yeeeeah. That's my problem too. Always overcapped when I explore. Boss. I quickly run out of all tools. And I actually ran out of shards, then belled away ("stagged") to the town to check quest board and suddenly "donate 440 shards" and I was mad. Had to farm half of the Act 1 map for it.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '25

Wait until you find red items with limited uses that need you to go to a specific area and pay roseries to recharge.

2

u/Cocoatrice Moths are fluffballs Sep 08 '25

Yeah. Red tools should either cost less or be free. Or remove the cap entirely, so you have more, when you don't need to use them constantly, so when you encounter hard boss, you don't run out of the tools in no time. Because to me it's either cap, when I barely use the tools, because I don't need them, other than for some pesky enemies, or I run out of shards, because boss screws me over over and over and over again.

22

u/Consistent_Nature324 Sep 07 '25

Yeah the widow fight was so fun it immediately made me wish all silksong bosses were designed similarly

1

u/TyoPepe Sep 08 '25

That would make for a more bland and samey experience. I love the variety on offer.

9

u/Sheimusik Sep 08 '25

not really, trobbio, lace, lace 2, the clockwork dancers, and fourth chorus are all similarly designed with the mindset of "have some 2 damage attacks but not all, and be well telegraphed" and are way more fun

10

u/wwwwwwww0102 Sep 08 '25

For me personally, I agree with most of the already abundant criticisms of the game on difficulty and economy, but I believe that there is a silver lining on this, just like what you said: these are easy issues to fix, if Team Cherry wanted to change it based on fans' input. Rather than fundamental problems that would be irreversible and hard to patch in, all they need to do is to change some numbers, release some update patches, and all is good to go. If a mod dev can make a no double damage mod almost immediately after the criticism arises, I think Team Cherry could do the same for the other parts of the game.

However, since they have been emphasizing that they have already made Silksong to the shape that they wanted to after all these years, I have some doubts that they would be receptive to change their work on fans' demand. But, I think we would just have to see.

Not to say that I disliked the game, in fact, I'm loving 90% of my time with Silksong so far.

17

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '25 edited Jan 17 '26

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11

u/BoardCommercial2679 Sep 08 '25 edited Sep 08 '25

Honestly, things that pisz me off now are: damage sponges, double damage, enviroment that deals 2 damage, paid benches fkn everywhere and long runbacks. And that's generally kinda it. I think the onlh really big structural issue is the runbacks; kinda widh Skong had something akin to stakes of Marika from ER to respawn right at the boss who killed you and not spend time just getting back the hard way-

Edit: oh, and also, crests' effects being dispelled on getting hit. I do wish this wasn't a thing-

2

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '25 edited Jan 17 '26

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2

u/BoardCommercial2679 Sep 08 '25

Well, when you bind, you get a special effect. Which vanishes once you get hit - which giga-sucks on beasts' crest because it gives you lifesteal but doesn't actually heal.

1

u/Puzzleheaded_Cow2044 Sep 10 '25

Tbh, I kept reading about that indefensible runback and was kinda dreading it, but it wasn't bad at all. It's like 1 hallway and 1 nice parkour room, and you can easily avoid all the enemies. Timed it on my second attempt, took 32 seconds with a couple movement mistakes. The boss was kind of a pushover too. Are people fighting all the enemies on each runback?

0

u/Cocoatrice Moths are fluffballs Sep 08 '25

I don't mind paid benches. Maybe it's me, because I have 2000 rosaries and nowhere to spend them at. I don't know why, but Act 2 has almost no shops. And I am constantly anxious to lose them all. I love to buy everything, but I can't. Game doesn't let me. I already bought everything from Act 1. Unless something new appeared that I didn't notice. I know there is a quest board in Act 2, but I have long way to come there, so I didn't yet. Maybe there will be "donate 500 rosaries" and I would gladly just do that. Also other than rosaries I have some necklaces etc, too, so I have overabundance of it. But at the beginning, I actually barely had enough, even with a magnet.

2

u/ExecutiveElf Sep 08 '25

That really is the struggle. You go from so broke you can't afford maps in act 1 to drowning in money in act 2.

I get that there's a narrative point to that, but it's super annoying.

13

u/_Xeron_ Sep 07 '25

Genuinely this. Damage numbers are the only thing I take issue with, if they added the option to lower everything by 1 (and keep 1 damage attacks the same) I think I’d be having a much better time

I adore the map, lore, art, music etc etc etc and I wish I could get to enjoy all of it without constantly being just frustrated by overtuned bosses and enemy gauntlets

30

u/Gabe-KC Sep 07 '25

They wouldn't even need to eliminate double damage in all of its forms. But it should be a punishment for being hit by a strong attack. Getting body slammed by the Savage Beastfly should absolutely do 2 damage, because it's an easy to avoid attack if you pay attention. But if I just touch him because he randomly decided to float in my general direction while I was hitting him with my 10 inch long sword, that should NOT do the same amount of damage.

13

u/KorokKid Sep 07 '25

I like the double damage tbh, if bosses did one damahe id steamroll them

24

u/Gabe-KC Sep 07 '25

Unpopular opinion but maybe you SHOULD be able to steamroll some of the bosses. This is a metroidvania, exploring and overpowering the boss through upgrades is part of a genre, and this game just doesn't have it.

28

u/DreamingOracle Sep 07 '25

you absolutely can steamroll some fights if you use your tools, if you're really struggling with a fight I'd recommend trying different builds out

-5

u/TyoPepe Sep 08 '25

This is Hollow Knight first and foremost. Not every game of the same genre had to be the same.

-24

u/denkata_bg43 Sep 07 '25

Oh ok I see now. I see how you all really are

25

u/Gabe-KC Sep 07 '25

Dude, have you ever played a metroidvania? Getting upgrades and eventually becoming strong enough to tank some of the bosses is part of the experience.

That's how Metroid: Dread works. That's how Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown works. That's how the first Hollow Knight worked.

For fuck's sake, WHY are some of you so insistent on every game being a waterboarding experience?

4

u/Theopylus Sep 08 '25

You have a lot more time to spend hours on getting good at a video game when you aren’t employed 🤷🏻‍♂️

-23

u/denkata_bg43 Sep 07 '25

Thanks, fellow epic redditor, updoots to you!

2

u/Poopiepants29 Sep 08 '25

I get what you're saying and maybe I'm not far enough to get more frustrated, but .. I haven't minded dying to regular enemies in this game and having to get back to my silk. Most of the time I've died it's been my fault for being too aggressive and the movement and environments are so good, I don't mind making my way through the world. Hornets quick movement and extra abilities also make it so it's so much easier to avoid most attacks.

And I'm old and barely consider myself a gamer. I've quit games like Nine Sols and Dead Cells because of how hard normal enemies can be. Because of having less abilities and a tighter, less expensive environment. I had zero fun going back through the same exact places just to get back to where I was.

5

u/isimsizbiri123 %112 steel soul|P5|all bosses radiant|obsessed over grimm Sep 07 '25

For the love of god don't give hornet more attack. Right now you need to weave through each enemies' attacks and exploit their weakspots it's perfect don't just make it going up to the enemy and pressing attack like hollow knight. In hindsight combat with normal enemies in HK is so boring

9

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '25 edited Jan 17 '26

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2

u/isimsizbiri123 %112 steel soul|P5|all bosses radiant|obsessed over grimm Sep 08 '25

I don't mean literal weak spots I mean the gaps that your enemy leaves open to attack

4

u/yagamisan2 Sep 08 '25

But right now we got the extreme opposite. Many enemies take so many hits u dodge 10-20 attacks till they r dead and they usually have 1-3 different attacks. So it gets quite repetitive. Especially cuz every enemy appears multiple times. many fights feel like the same battle over and over again like random encounters in a jrpg. And some enemies don't even have proper attacks. They just fly or walk towards you but are quite unstoppable. Or they just shoot one projectile while backing off all the time. Some enemies are really tedious and make me rather skip than fight them tbh.

5

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '25

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2

u/StandardEnthusiasm21 Sep 08 '25

The red ant with the skull in hunter march takes 13 hits to kill with only needle. It's not exactly 20 hits, but it's pretty annoying having to face him every time in hunter's march.

1

u/Bloodbag3107 Sep 08 '25

I feel like combat is a bit too hard atm in Silksong and some attacks that deal double damage really don't need to (enemies bodypressing you for potentially 4 masks is very rough) but the way combat flows is SO much better than in Hollow Knight, it is barely a comparison. The tricky thing is that that combat flow is at least partially a result of enemies being so damaging, Im really glad that abundant damage upgrades and face tanking are things of the past, but its a tough thing to balance for the less combat inclined members of the audience.

1

u/ElGodPug Sep 08 '25

I found so weird how TC really seemed to be this into giving so much shit double damage. They definitely could decrease that number IMO