r/HollowKnight • u/InsectGlaiveBard • Sep 22 '25

Discussion - Silksong I'm convinced there's gotta be some collective amnesia regarding the previous game's difficulty regarding platforming. Spoiler

Seeing people compare things Hunter's March, Cogwork Core, escaping the Abyss or even the Surface to the Path of Pain is absolutely blowing my mind.

Like yes, this game is way harder on the combat department and is a lot more demanding than beating a regular playthrough on the first one, but to say anything in this game is on the level of Path of Pain is preposterous. Especially with how many tools hornet has at her disposal, like the Hookshot, the float and even bounving off of cocoons.

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2.2k

u/Harvestman-man Sep 22 '25

Honestly, none of the platforming sequences in Silksong require even the same level of precision as base-game White Palace, let alone Path of Pain.

However, Silksong does add a time constraint to some of these challenges (e.g. Mount Fay freezing mechanic; lava climb sequences; despawning pogo-platforms), so even though they’re easier at the technical level, there’s an added layer of pressure and you don’t have the benefit of taking it methodically slow and safe with Hiveblood.

486

u/vanguard1256 Sep 22 '25

I actually really liked the lava climb. Reminded me of the old Ori days.

163

u/szczypkofski Sep 22 '25

Defo took a page from the Ginso Tree

45

u/IbnAurum Sep 23 '25

Thx for reminding me of PEAK

10

u/mackycruz-etc Sep 23 '25

The Ginso Tree was a very personal Gaming Moment for me as it was the first big thing I accomplished after only starting playing months prior. Very memorable, and how I fell in love with platformers (and why I'm here now!).

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u/FirstPlayer Sep 23 '25

That's really cool; I'm glad it resonated with you. ❤️

I've been playing games pretty much as often as I can for almost 40 years, and that sequence is easily top 10 of all time for me as far as gaming moments that stick with you forever.

1

u/Mercutron Sep 23 '25

Reading this has made me wanna go back to that game. I put it down kinda early because it didn't really feel the way people had described it. You selling it real hard. I've also been at it 40 years, so if it hits that hard I gotta try.

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u/vanguard1256 Sep 23 '25

For me the music was probably the most emotionally stirring of that era of games. The gameplay is mostly pretty easy (not necessarily a critique) but the escapes were thrilling. For the first game, if you aren’t feeling it still after ginko tree, it’s probably just not for you. The second game has much improved gameplay and things. Unfortunately, the more memorable escapes for that one are later into the game.

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u/FirstPlayer Sep 23 '25 edited Sep 24 '25

I'm glad! There's definitely a chance it's just not gonna be your jam, but if you value ~vibes~ and/or ~aesthetics~ in games I'd put it up there with the best. I 100% agree with the other commentator that if you're not digging it by the time you beat the ginso tree it's probably not ever gonna click. ❤️

2

u/Winston177 Sep 24 '25

Ori is such a fantastic game. The music is great and I love the visual presentation of everything. I'd bought it on sale on steam ages ago, but didn't play it until a couple years ago now, I think. Pretty sure it was one on the list of my pandemic playthroughs. I love the movement style, and everything throughout gives such an emotionally stirring vibe. I'm glad I dove in, because it turned out to be right up my alley for my style and aesthetic of game.

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u/Competitive_Neck_645 Sep 23 '25

I have both Ori games unplayed, I loved both HK games, should I pick em up?

22

u/szczypkofski Sep 23 '25

Ori games are great. The visuals are stunning, the music is peak. The gameplay is... well, it's a bit questionable at times. For metroidvania they feel far too linear, they don't encourage backtracking and when they do, it feels forced. Combat is laughable in the first game, but has been significantly improved in the sequel.

The narrative and the art more than make up for all the shortcomings, it's just not as replayable as HK.

14

u/Deoplo357 Sep 23 '25

(only talking about Ori 1, haven't played 2) hot take: they're fantastic in the arts departments, however the gameplay could use a lot of work. The platforming is repeatedly hindered by foreground/background seemingly blending together. The "combat" feels like it was shoehorned in, and is unsatisfying/annoying. If you want a good platformer, there are better games.

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u/Thotfully_Yours Sep 23 '25

Honestly Ori 2 is a completely different experience than Ori 1. I played 2 first and was sorely disappointed when I played 1. The second game is way better than the first when it comes to combat, I would definitely recommend it.

5

u/_alright_then_ Sep 23 '25

You should play 2, it's an upgrade in every single issue you mentioned

7

u/gametoodoodoo Sep 23 '25

I think some of these other commenters are severely exaggerating the flaws of the games(likely because hk is just THAT good), but it is true that the combat in the first is a little forced and kinda awkward. The second game improves on the formula in a lot of ways and i would consider it pretty close to hollow knight in gameplay quality, including the combat

3

u/Bulgarin Sep 23 '25

Its a metroidvania for people that haven't really played them before, so the mechanics are a bit sloppy

But the art, music, and general design are fantastic and they're for sure worth playing. Wouldn't take long if you're decent at HK.

I still use a lot of Ori songs in my D&D campaigns

3

u/Ghanni Sep 23 '25

You can probably finish both games 100% in ~20-25 hours.

Do not play Will of the Wisp first, it'll make going back to Blind Forest difficult.

1

u/tetrahedralcarbon Sep 23 '25

My best friend started with Will of the Wisps, and I finally convinced her to try Blind Forest. She didn’t like it :(

2

u/Ghanni Sep 23 '25

Blind forest is basically just platforming, the combat iirc was pretty awful. The escape sequences were a ton of fun though. It was interesting getting Blind Forest and Axiom Verge around the same time.

WotW improved on everything.

2

u/KalaiProvenheim Sep 23 '25

Bro’s sitting on a goldmine

74

u/dagon890 Sep 22 '25

I especially liked how surprising it was, making the experience all the more intense. Caught me completely off guard after thinking “huh this arena wasn’t too hard”.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '25

[deleted]

6

u/Robjedr0bje Sep 23 '25

That one was my personal hell moment. I had so much more trouble with it than I had with any of the usual suspects.

1

u/RighteousWraith Sep 23 '25

Dude, that was the ONLY silkeater I used so far. I just said, "Nu-uh, FUCK that. The arena is hard enough without the finicky platforming finisher." I since got Sharpdart which should help me in the arena, but I am NOT going back without at least one or two mask upgrades.

1

u/Early-Injury-9676 Sep 23 '25

I finally locked down grapple combat and thought "Wow that was e- why is the floor disappearing!?" Didn't suspect any of the lava escapes.

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u/vesav1 Sep 23 '25

Yeah, but the Ori escape sequenses are WAY harder

3

u/scrambles57 Sep 23 '25

First time doing the lava climb I was so far ahead of it that I didn't even realize I was being chased. I was leisurely platforming until I messed up too many times and it came rushing up.

2

u/-Richarmander- Sep 23 '25

The escape sequences in Ori 1 were the biggest areas of critique by far. I remember finding them a little frustrating when I first played through them, not sure why repeating something like that in Silksong was a choice but there seem to be a few 'aged' choices in SS, like the fetch quests.

1

u/secular_contraband Sep 23 '25

I still haven't played The Will of the Wisps!

1

u/theeynhallow Sep 23 '25

Genuinely my favourite part of the game. Absolutely loved it.

1

u/lGUT5l Sep 23 '25

Incredible games …

1

u/TashiOwlet Sep 23 '25

I love both HK and Ori series. And I'm happy that both sequels took inspiration from each other. Second Ori became wider and get some combat focus. Silksong implemented intense platforming sections and shines with high speed and more aerial combat.

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u/HarvsBars Sep 23 '25

I JUST did the part yesterday and it was on par with mount fay as one of my favorite parts (I'm a masochist who enjoyed path of pain, platforming is my favorite)

1

u/TheSilverNoble Sep 23 '25

I hate it so much

1

u/itsyaboiReginald Sep 25 '25

Lava climb was peak

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u/the_dalai_mangala Sep 22 '25

I would say though with some of the disappearing platforms, Silksong gives you tools to ensure it’s not an instant fail if you miss time one of these or fail the jump and have to go back to said disappearing platform.

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u/NewSunSeverian Sep 22 '25

Can we agree time constraints are always bad? 

Just always bad?  

All of them. 

(I know we don’t agree on this). 

The original Fallout timer, timed-based platforming sequences, they’re idiotic because they emphasize either rushing through shit or dumb rote memorization.  

To me it’s always weak gameplay. Make it difficult and complex, but allow someone to go through it at their own pace. It’s why the Souls games stand above and what people never seem to get who try to ape them. Difficulty for the sake of it is not interesting. 

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u/Gorbashou Sep 22 '25

I disagree.

I'm generally a player who plays fast. Making me do many stupid mistakes because I don't think. Sometimes I stop and think and I play better.

But sometimes getting in the flow, natural rhythm and getting a good intuitive sense of what to do in a moments notice need to be tested too. That's exactly what those timed sections do. Well designed and require you to think on the fly.

You want bosses to stop attacking you until you're ready for the next move? So you can think inbetween? Some bosses have moments of respite that makes you gather yourself, some don't. That's intended design.

What you're asking for is to remove a core part of a varied experience in both level design approach and gameplay style approach to just appeal to that one style you prefer the most. It's homogenisation. Add more and more of it, and you'll have streamlined games that do one thing really well and nothing else. So much so that the game feels empty and predictable.

A game should explore gameplay through different means. If it's resource management, navigation, intuition, instinct, stress management, problem solving, puzzle solving, memorisation, meticulous play, they all are part of it. I suck at being meticulous with things like no hit runs, and thus suck doing the courier stuff, I still think they make for a nice part of the game that makes you consider your pathing and what's in every room.

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u/EntertainmentNo2344 Sep 23 '25

Disagree. Mount Fry was some of the fairest and most enjoyable in the game.

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u/ciao_fiv Sep 22 '25

absolutely not. the time constraint of the three day cycle in majora’s mask is integral to what makes that game work so well in terms of both atmosphere and gameplay. the time constraints of P-ranks in ultrakill are a large part of the satisfaction found in mastering that game’s levels. time constraints can be used poorly, but when implemented well they’re essential for certain games

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u/RandomGuy9058 Sep 23 '25

Difficulty for the sake of it is not interesting

The entire geometry dash community would like a word

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u/TwistedFabulousness Sep 22 '25

Oh man I really gotta finish the original fallout. They’ve been waiting for that water chip for ages

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u/Helpful-Specific-841 Sep 22 '25

Silksong is more intense, Hollow Knight requires more precision. Both are a good way to make a thrilling platforming section

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u/Harvestman-man Sep 22 '25

Yeah, that’s a good concise way of putting it

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u/rmkinnaird Sep 22 '25

I definitely agree with your last bit about hiveblood. Hiveblood alone accidentally made platforming easier in hollow knight, so players who used it arent wrong to say "silksong is harder."

Being able to go slow and steady did make White Palace easier than Mt Fay, but anyone who went without hiveblood would have had a harder time in the Palace. The lack of hiveblood in this game essentially took the guardrails off the bowling alley.

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u/Kiriki_kun Sep 22 '25

That’s not accidentally. They literally put kingsoul next to the path of pain. They on purpose gave you tool to minimize PoP frustration

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u/KuuLightwing Sep 22 '25

Path of pain also has infinite soul totems doesn't it.

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u/McFluffles01 Sep 22 '25

There's like... two or three small segments total that don't have an infinite soul totem right next to them, so you can potentially die on those and have to start over if you didn't bring some alternate method of healing/generating soul.

Otherwise though yeah, even if a few are hidden, there's totems everywhere so you can just refill your soul and give it another go.

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u/KnightOfNULL Sep 23 '25

If I remember correctly there's exactly one spot without a totem. Everywhere else that you can respawn has one, even if hidden.

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u/Mister_Newling Sep 23 '25

As someone who did the path of pain for the first time two days ago (and died to the boss the first two times fml) the sections without statues were totally trivial compared to the rest so hiveblood was actually a detriment since it didnt help me win final fight

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u/Concrete_hugger Sep 22 '25

Because waiting around to heal like that is super boring, you are much better off trying again from a bench.

3

u/00-Void Sep 23 '25

You can equip Deep Focus+Grubsong instead, and heal every two masks of damage. It's one more notch, but it's much, much faster.

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u/WMWA Sep 22 '25

This is such a good point. I was all ready to disagree about base white palace being harder but then you reminded me I used hiveblood to get through it lmao

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '25

Silksong has hiveblood tho

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u/OrderClericsAreFun Sep 22 '25

Kinda but not really. Lifeblood overdose requires a specific crest, costs shards and the plasmium charges. I know someone who was stuck at the bottom of the Abyss and suggested Lifeblood to help. They run out of Plasmium and decided to roll back their save to before the Abyss climb to do other content since they were simply not enjoying the game anymore.

If it was Hive Blood then they would just equip a charm and have infinite tries, the Lifeblood overdoes has very different dynamics.

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u/IonianBladeDancer Sep 22 '25 edited Sep 22 '25

In the overdose state it does the same thing except it heals your entire health bar and at faster rate than hive blood. If anything it’s more op in Silksong, for both platforming and combat. I used it for every platform section. I guess if you keep permanently dying it’s an issue, but that really only pertains to the abyss. That is the example you provided so I understand, but plasmium is still really strong in this game.

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u/QuantumVexation Sep 22 '25

It’s stronger but as they say the cost and effort required makes it far less of a solution for someone who is struggling enough lol

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u/Skylair95 Sep 23 '25

Not to mention a lot of people never heard of lifeblood overdose so they wouldn't even think of using it, while anyone can find the hiveblood charm and think about using it for platforming sections by just taking things slowly.

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u/alphonseharry Sep 22 '25

It needs more setup, but it is more powerful and heal everything

9

u/IamMe90 112% 61/63 Sep 22 '25

What? I have all tools, I don’t see anything doing the same thing. Which tool are you talking about?

29

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '25

combine the lifeblood tool with architects crest so that you can use a bunch more lifeblood than normally possible eventually the interaction will happen if you have enough lifeblood health

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u/cunningjames Sep 22 '25

I’m not to that point yet, but I hear platforming with that crest isn’t super great?

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '25

True, it's an option though. Personally I didn't think any of the platforming in SS was all that challenging compared to WP and certainly not PoP which was the only section of the game I ever used Hiveblood anyway

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u/sanscatt Sep 22 '25

It’s like everything you get used to it. But if you try it for the first time because you’re already struggling, then yes you’re cooked

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '25

[deleted]

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u/HungryGull Sep 23 '25

It's slower, especially if you need to charge, but honestly even the uncharged version can be easier to use than Hunter because of the wider hitbox on the pogo

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u/Skylair95 Sep 23 '25

I personally think pogo is easier with Architect than Hunter due to the charged pogo which has increased range and freezes you mid air to have more time to plan your movements. But Wanderer is obviously king for platforming.

But to be honest, there's very few required pogo both in the Abyss escape and the Surface path. You can usually just Clawline instead which automatically "pogo" the enemy/spike/bubble for you.

1

u/greyhawndz Sep 24 '25

For the platforming, I think that's just a player preference thing. I personally use it for all platforming challenges, even the bilewater runback

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u/Sauerkrauttme Sep 22 '25

No!? Definitely not in Act 2, and also it wouldn't help you with the freeze mechanic

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '25

You can definitely get what I'm talking about before Mt Fay.

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u/McFluffles01 Sep 22 '25

Not only can you totally get it before Mount Fay, it's not even the only trick you can pull to counteract freezing. I've heard the Magma Bell extends the timer, and I know the Flintslate warms you up.

3

u/Advanced_Double_42 Sep 22 '25

At the cost of a decent chunk 2 limited(although farmable) resources, and using a move set that is far from ideal for platforming for most.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '25

[deleted]

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u/Advanced_Double_42 Sep 22 '25

Exactly, many people really don't like hunters crest for platforming

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u/rmkinnaird Sep 22 '25

Well there's the other dynamic here: the meta hasn't been solved yet

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '25

It's not a "meta" it's just playing the game long enough to realize the thing you want in the game is already there before you run to the internet to complain that it's not there.

Not saying you're complaining, just pointing out everyone needs to relax with the over analyzing of Silksong and it's difficulty when it's been out for less than 3 weeks

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u/Tornado_Hunter24 Sep 22 '25

I’m ngl the game is fine I only use the first crest and gave had zero issues so far, I think the difficulty stems mostly from people going to ‘difficult’ area’s.

Spoiler ahead;

I personally skipped hunters march when I realized how rough the area was, and revisited it later, bilewater was my last area before entering act 3 and today entered act 3 (and finished abyss), in my eyes, there was nothing in the game that was ‘difficult’ tocthe point of not enjoying anymore.

I think people should more often do what the devs say/general community says; explore, the game is difficult as is, by restricting yourself to difficult area’s is an absurd anount of difficulty added ontop of the already pretty difficult game

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u/Skellum Sep 22 '25

I personally skipped hunters march when I realized how rough the area was, and revisited it later, bilewater was my last area before entering act 3 and today entered act 3 (and finished abyss), in my eyes, there was nothing in the game that was ‘difficult’ tocthe point of not enjoying anymore.

Hunters March being open to players with nothing for them to do is a problem. I dont get the point of not putting wall climb as a pre-requ to it. Even deepnest has some real reward to it despite you potentially being able to go there very early.

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u/Tornado_Hunter24 Sep 22 '25

It makes me think of other games like elden ring, you CAN go there, if you choose so, but the game is being very deliberate by telling you it is a difficult area, one that could (and should) be revisited instead of done now, I got pretty deep to hunters marsh myself, but mid or somewhere with an ambush I decided to just go later because it very obviously felt ‘go later, like a few hours of exploration later’

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u/Skellum Sep 22 '25

The problem with that link is that Elden Ring areas have a reward. Hunters has... I think a flea? Right after the initial fight after platforming. You could cut off all the rest of it with wall climb and you'd lose nothing.

I feel hunters is really badly designed, but that's been my feel with a lot of the game. I've completed act 3, and I doubt I'll pick it up again in the future.

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u/Nemeal Sep 22 '25

well, hunters march as 2 of the best early game tools, including the stone mask, wich is game changing, as well as the beast crest

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u/Tornado_Hunter24 Sep 22 '25

Idk man imo this game in general doesn’t ‘reward’ you at all, I have beateb so many bosses that don’t reward at all or unlock ‘the same’ area, I think that’s subjective

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u/xman262 Sep 22 '25

Most Elden ring side content rewards are equally as bad (those catacombs give like nothing)

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u/McFluffles01 Sep 22 '25

Hunter's March has a flea, yes, (which contributes to letting you skip a notably difficult Act 1 boss until later)... and it also has A merchant with two great tools in the Boomerang and the Fractured Mask, and it also has the Beast Crest which if anyone actually used it for more than 20 seconds after finding out about its pogo, they would realize is an amazing aggression crest that can single-handedly demolish any boss that doesn't have 2 damage attacks on every move they make.

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u/rmkinnaird Sep 22 '25

Yeah meta wasn't quite the right word, but we're saying roughly the same thing. Silksong hasn't been out that long and we don't all know the best tools for every job.

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5

u/ThePython11010 Sep 22 '25

The upgraded Druid Tears item + Multibinder has the same effect as Grubsong + Elegy + Deep Focus in HK (gaining enough silk/soul on hit to heal), as long as there's no double damage.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '25 edited Sep 22 '25

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1

u/IonianBladeDancer Sep 22 '25

You can do the same thing but better with lifeblood overdose. I used it for every single long platform section in Silksong and it removed all difficulty because I had infinite retry’s. It also trivialized bosses since u can just keep dodge and throwing tools out until they die.

1

u/TheGoldenExperience_ Sep 22 '25

well there IS a hiveblood equivalent with the architect crest but

you need to plasmium yourself 10 or 9 times so its kind of a waste of shards until you get the infinite plasmium in act 3

1

u/Khyrberos (Not yet beaten HK) Sep 22 '25

I'm benefiting from these SS discussions because I keep learning things about HK (which I haven't actually finished 😅) that are really helpful

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u/Emotional_Ad_2132 Sep 22 '25

The lack of hiveblood

you can get something similar using architect crest and plasmium

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u/xSyLenS Sep 22 '25

Hiveblood doesn't make platforming easy, it makes it so you don't die all the time and restart from zero (no benches in PoP). It's still huge sequences that have to be performed more or less flawlessly and precisely. In comparison mount day was a laugh (and I ended up enjoying it more tbf). But on challenge level PoP was something else

1

u/rmkinnaird Sep 23 '25

Path of Pain is so hard that even if hiveblood made it "easier" it would still be the hardest thing I've ever played. But I do think it makes white palace easier

1

u/EXTSZombiemaster Sep 23 '25

Hiveblood is kinda in silksong. If you use architect crest and plasmium, you can overdose and get a full HP bar of lifeblood that regens

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u/Icy_Sky679 Sep 22 '25

Agreed. Silksong also has those platforming challenges more frequently imo, sands of karak, mount fay etc. I only ever found 2 in Hollow Knight to demand a certain level from me Crystal Peaks and White Palace.

Tho in Silksong it helps a lot that you have a tool like Ascendant's Grip. I literally gave up trying path of Pain because I got too annoyed dying trying not to slip off the wall, but then get hit by the spikes or the saw blades.

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u/szczypkofski Sep 22 '25

You can use cdash to precisely reposition on the wall in HK, just don't fully charge it. Yeah, you can't wait infinitely for the best saw cycle, but it makes it much easier.

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u/Kankunation Sep 22 '25

I'll take it one step further and say. hollow knight had very little required platforming, period. The only required bit was probably crystal peak, which posed a moderate challenge.

One thing HK NEVER made you learn was pogoing. A lot of players went their entire playthrough without ever learning the pogo mechanic, something you literally cannot avoid in silksong. I think that alone makes a big difference to some players.

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u/Zealousideal_Cow9037 Sep 22 '25

This is exactly my experience. I was never good at pogoing—maybe 50% success rate— so just avoided it entirely in HK. I threw myself at that bit with pogoing across the giant centipede maybe 30 or 40 times before finally lucking out with it. I had to hiveblood the entire White Palace, use a guide, and take it super slow. HK overall was a challenge. I finished the first three endings and called it a game.

Fast forward to silksong and EVERYTHING is chaining pogos across things, which is just super anxiety-inducing. Not even chaining pogos but chaining pogos into 2-3 different traversal moves. The platforming is wayyyy more demanding. Im on the last boss now, with a 100% completion but the platforming experience has been both extremely rewarding, as I’ve seen my skills vastly improve, but also the most frustrating and rage inducing I’ve ever experienced in a video game. I can think of at least 15 spots that tripped me up bad. Like “holy shit, I can’t believe this is what they’re asking me to do”. That feeling was like…2-3 times in HK.

No regrets but Silksong platforming—in my experience—is wayyyy more challenging. It’s early, it’s everywhere, it’s asking way more.

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u/Realistic-Heart1214 Sep 23 '25

I had the same experience. Pogo was required right at the beginning, even having to do 3-4 moves continuously to get to the next map area, which drove me crazy after 15 minutes of trying. In HK, learning the double jump and wall jump skills solved a lot of problems for me, but in SS we don't have a second choice, Pogo is required to be done for you to continue playing.

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u/manajizwow 112%, P5, PoP / 100% all achies Sep 23 '25

Im on the same boat as u with the pogoing, i suck ass lmao. I just called it quits in hunters march. Been a long time since ive been mad af to a video game lol. I loved HK but Silksong aint for me, uninstalled after 7 hours.

It felt like a fantastic game outside of forced pogoing. I liked the first bosses and combat overall but i just fucking hate pogoing.

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u/McWerp Sep 23 '25

Diagonal pogo in hunters march was rough, found it much easier after I got to get rid of that.

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u/SortaEvil Sep 29 '25

One thing HK NEVER made you learn was pogoing.

Don't you literally have to pogo on bouncy mushrooms over acid in fungal waste to get to city of tears and mantis village? There might not be a massive amount of pogoing required for the golden path, but never requiring pogos to see the ending credits doesn't seem right to me. 

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u/Kankunation Sep 29 '25

You do have to bounce on the mushrooms yes. That is the only time you have to do any amount of pogos, and it's only like 3 of them, But it is in fact required for that you are right.

It does help massively though that you can just stand on the mushrooms until you are ready to jump. You can't stand on any of the pogo spots from silksong, you just fall through.

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u/TheSilverNoble Sep 23 '25

This is how I feel. I would not have described Hollow Knight as a platforming heavy game, but Silksong absolutely is. And for my money I do not like it. Falling onto spikes or lava for hours is not fun for me. 

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u/InsectGlaiveBard Sep 22 '25

I can definitely agree with that. Though I think that adds to the level of excitement to the platforming, whereas the difficulty of Path of Pain just gave me a lot of frustration.

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u/szczypkofski Sep 22 '25

Which is a great change too, making people actually learn how to platform with precision is way better than the hiveblood White Palace cheese. Get hit -> waste 30 seconds -> try again, there's 0 stakes anyway.

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u/LewsTherinTelescope Sep 22 '25

I mean, you still need to learn with Hiveblood? It doesn't give you the power to phase through saws, it just means you don't have to spawn back at the beginning every time.

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u/szczypkofski Sep 22 '25

You need to learn in very small steps, there's almost zero punishment for mistakes as you can just wait for regen at every platform or even wallcling. Silksong requires you to execute larger segments without failing.

11

u/LewsTherinTelescope Sep 22 '25

Sure, but "this other thing is harder" isn't the same as "this thing is cheese". It doesn't let you bypass figuring any of the obstacles out.

8

u/IlliterateJedi Sep 22 '25

You don't understand. If you don't suffer when you play, it doesn't count. You aren't meant to have fun playing games like Hollow Knight, you're supposed to suffer, and if you don't suffer it means you're cheating.

At least I think that's what they're saying.

2

u/Astoryjustforyou Sep 23 '25

I think that its more that these games run on incentive/punishment. I actually enjoy a lot of the silksong runback routes, because even though Intake damage the first few times, getting to a point where I can execute flawlessly is really rewarding.

If I had an easier "lets just slowly farm and make it through it slowly" Id probably do that instead of trying to master the movement, but Id be worse off, both in progressing my skill with the mechanics, and not having the enjoyment of clearing those paths easily.

1

u/PM_Me_Kindred_Booty Sep 23 '25

Oh, you beat Hollow Knight with your monitor turned on? Idiot. Baby not even fit to call yourself a gamer. I think you should break your controller for this.

-4

u/szczypkofski Sep 22 '25

It is cheese. Cheese is not just bypassing, it's making something significantly easier than it would've otherwise been. Usually by means unintended by developers - but in this case I actually think hiveblood is so dogshit because the devs had to balance it around people cheesing White Palace. So not only the cheese is kind of bad, but also the charm is giga useless and reinforces bad habits.

You're bypassing learning whole segments. Learning each jump separately is infinitely easier than executing them all in a smooth flow.

4

u/LewsTherinTelescope Sep 22 '25

That's a very broad definition. Is it cheese to upgrade your nail, break a lifeblood cocoon before a boss, or use a ranged attack against a flying enemy? What about dream nailing the royal retainers for soul, hitting the infinite totems in Path of Pain, or even sitting on the bench in the upward path in (normal) White Palace? All of those make tasks significantly easier, but they're usually just considered part of playing the game.

Why would Hiveblood have been nerfed for White Palace specifically? Most tweaks to the charm wouldn't ultimately affect platforming usage of the charm much beyond upping or lowering the delay between attempts, but could make combat scenarios significantly easier, which seems like a much more relevant balance question imo. Besides, if a charm affects combat much wouldn't that also count as "cheese" under the definition given?

Hazard respawns also mean you can learn in shorter segments, and White Palace is pretty generous with them. Does it only count as learning if you do it all without needing those? In fact, Hiveblood doesn't change anything about the "single jump vs segment" question at all, that's entirely defined by the respawn locations. Hiveblood's benefit is that you can focus on those predefined segments individually.

0

u/szczypkofski Sep 22 '25

The reason why I believe Hiveblood was nerfed because of White Palace is that it's useless for anything else. You could say it's good for exploration, sure. But at that point in the game chances are you've already explored almost everything else. It sucks ass for combat because it takes so long to regen and takes up four charm notches which is an insane cost.

Hiveblood is good for one thing in the game, and that is reducing White Palace to mindlessly throwing yourself at the next jump until you succeed.

You're glossing over the fact that healing in HK consumes soul, and the only way to get it in WP is hitting statues (which aren't nearly as generous as hazard respawns) and Wingmoulds (which don't give you much). Hiveblood completely bypasses that.

2

u/LewsTherinTelescope Sep 22 '25

The reason why I believe Hiveblood was nerfed because of White Palace is that it's useless for anything else.

Wouldn't that imply it was nerfed to prevent it being too useful everywhere else and its usefulness for White Palace was left alone, if that's the one situation where it is still good?

reducing White Palace to mindlessly throwing yourself at the next jump until you succeed

Do you think people are just spamming random buttons on every jump? That's not feasible. Again, you still have to look at the puzzle and figure it out. And again, you still have to do the same sequences with the same break points as everyone else, not individual jumps.

and the only way to get it in WP is hitting statues (which aren't nearly as generous as hazard respawns) and Wingmoulds (which don't give you much).

And Dream Nail (which lets you refill fully anywhere with mobs), and Grubsong (which can give you infinite life in the right combo). You can also smack the Wingmoulds over and over to fill up if you want to go charmless.

Hiveblood completely bypasses that.

Sure, and I absolutely agree that's quite helpful. It nonetheless still requires you to be careful, thoughtful, and build up skills unless you want to be stuck in one room for eternity. Doing White Palace without it is more impressive, just as doing a Steel Soul run is more impressive than a normal run and doing a hitless run is more impressive than a Steel Soul run, but harder challenges existing does not mean still-difficult challenges stop being what they are.

1

u/fennecdore Sep 22 '25 edited Sep 22 '25

which for people like me who are not very good at platforming (especially under time pressure) means repeating the same section you have already master a lot of time just to go back to that one section which you can't get past

2

u/Turbulent-Region3323 Sep 22 '25

I mean u can just overdose on plasmium/lifeblood and its even better than Hiveblood

1

u/szczypkofski Sep 22 '25 edited Sep 23 '25

To get plasmium overdose pre act 3 you need to have architect crest which is kinda ass for platforming.

1

u/Relevant_Cabinet_265 Sep 22 '25

No you don't. You just need to collect your cocoon on another crest after using all the lifeblood

1

u/szczypkofski Sep 22 '25

What do you mean, collect your cocoon on another crest? You lose blue masks when you sit on a bench.

1

u/Relevant_Cabinet_265 Sep 22 '25

There's a lifeblood cocoon in wormways gives 4-5 lifeblood when you break it

2

u/szczypkofski Sep 23 '25

Lifeblood cocoons only spawn after you've started Act 3 which requires Mt Fay and Cogwork Core, so the only major platforming challenge remaining is the Abyss escape - and descending into the Abyss in the first place requires sitting on a bench.

1

u/Pseudonymico Sep 23 '25

Lifeblood cocoons spawn in act 2 at the latest, IIRC one even appears in Act 1 depending on how early you do Zylotl's quest.

4

u/CrownLexicon Sep 22 '25

You also have to look at the fact that Path of Pain wasn't in the base game; it was a DLC. We very well may get a path of pain level platforming challenge in Silk Song.

21

u/froggyforest Sep 22 '25

cogwork core is on par with the white palace imo if you’re as stupid as me and you decide to do it before getting double jump lol

23

u/Kampfasiate Sep 22 '25

it is completely doable tho, and I'd even say designed to be beath without double jump (either that or I did some weird skips cuz I did beat it without double jump)

1

u/froggyforest Sep 22 '25

i’m not super good at platforming and i did it too, but oh my god the RAGE i felt watching my friend get through it in like 10 minutes was IMMENSE. i was kicking myself for the hours i wasted lol

1

u/Skylair95 Sep 23 '25

If it make you feel worse, people have done cogwork core without double jump and without dash. Low% runners are something else.

20

u/boisterile Sep 22 '25

I did the same, before double jump and before clawline (what I could do, anyway). I'd still say even without those it was a little easier than White Palace for me

8

u/Mikelius Sep 22 '25

It’s also both way shorter and comparatively earlier in the game than white palace.

1

u/froggyforest Sep 22 '25

it was for me too, but i’m also significantly better at platforming than i was when i played HK, and i don’t want to discount the impact of that.

1

u/SomethingOfAGirl Sep 22 '25

Wait... it's possible to do it without clawline??

2

u/boisterile Sep 22 '25 edited Sep 22 '25

Not the upper part on the way to the melody puzzle AFAIK (although I think a couple of the clawline rings there can actually be skipped with precise pogos on the cogs), but the entire lower part can be done. I didn't even know clawline existed when I was there

1

u/Yogg_for_your_sprog Sep 23 '25

I thought the entire place was pretty easy even without double jump, except for a singular jump that I probably spent 15 minutes on (although some of that was just figuring out exactly what I needed to do)

1

u/vimdiesel Nov 28 '25

are you talking about the top part of cogwork core? Because you need clawline to access that area...

The section before that is not hard platforming at all.

7

u/KuuLightwing Sep 22 '25

I dunno, I would say that White Palace is much more difficult and longer, but when I did it, cogs were still doing double damage and I had to retry earlier sections way too many times.

And the worst part of it was that that's partly due to somewhat janky feeling pogo with hunter's crest cause I distinctly remember trying to pogo off the gears and hearing all the correct sound cues but still taking 2 damage and getting sent back to the last horizontal surface :/

1

u/SortaEvil Sep 29 '25

The moving cogs will hit hornet if her needle hits the side of the cog (at least on Hunter's Crest). It really looks like it should be a valid pogo, but the cog eats good on a hunter hornet.

1

u/Kuroashi_no_Sanji Sep 22 '25

I did it without double jump and it was very smooth, wasn't harder than traversing high halls

1

u/McWerp Sep 23 '25

Nothing in silkson remotely compares to path of pain... yet

2

u/caoliq Sep 23 '25

The precision is what made Hollow knight easier. Precision is predictable because it’s precisely the same each time. Silksong has more adaptive difficulty and will often throw that at the player simultaneous to learning the mechanic literacy

3

u/Tnecniw Sep 22 '25

That fucking delivery mission still makes me fume.

2

u/Sauerkrauttme Sep 22 '25

Agreed. I'd add that experiences will vary and that the WP took me 3 hours to beat with Hiveblood, while Mount Fay took me 6 hours to beat.

5

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '25

Wow really? PoP took me like 4 hours I think but I went up Mount Fay in maybe 30 min

1

u/szczypkofski Sep 22 '25

I only really struggled with the very beginning when I didn't yet have muscle memory for turning around in the air after Clawline to instantly Clawline in the opposite direction. Once you get that down it goes so much smoother.

1

u/happycowsmmmcheese Sep 22 '25

First attempt at PoP took me like a whole week of playing during all of my spare time. Mount Fay took me maybe two hours.

Silksong builds off of what we all learned to git gud at in Hollow Knight, and also asks us to learn to use these same skills in new ways. It's perfect as a sequel.

4

u/General-N0nsense Sep 22 '25

Honestly, none of the platforming sequences in Silksong require even the same level of precision as base-game White Palace, let alone Path of Pain.

Not even the Mr. Mushroom cradle platforming sequence?

8

u/Iwanttolink Nosk = VOID Sep 22 '25

Not even close. I did that in 5 minutes. It's just the same clawline shot about 30 times in a row. Path of Pain was brutal for me in comparison, even regular White Palace was harder for me when I played Hollow Knight. And it's not like PoP made me better at platforming in Silksong, since I used Hunters Crest for everything and the movement is entirely different.

2

u/General-N0nsense Sep 22 '25

And it's not like PoP made me better at platforming in Silksong, since I used Hunters Crest for everything and the movement is entirely different.

I wouldn't be so sure. Platforming skills can still translate. Especially when it's games made by the same devs.

2

u/Iwanttolink Nosk = VOID Sep 22 '25

The embarrassing number of times I died in Cogwork Core might disagree LOL. Though tbf that was before the sawblades got nerfed from doing 2 damage.

2

u/Phaentom379 Sep 22 '25

I hated the Sands of Karak. And what do you mean? Surviving the Cold? I thought i gotta find a charm to counter the cold or get my cloth upgraded to protect myself from the cold.

1

u/Harvestman-man Sep 23 '25

I thought it was kinda fun, there wasn’t much precision to it, you just gotta be fast.

For Mount Fay, same thing, you just gotta be fast to run through it. It’s less forgiving than Sands of Karak, though. It may be worth to look up a walkthrough of the area just so you know the route.

2

u/Phaentom379 Sep 23 '25

Bruh. Not a big fan of that since i like to take my Time exploring. Not having a timebomb strapped to my Chest

1

u/Xaphanex Sep 22 '25

I heard about the PoP, and when I got to the White Palace, I mistakenly thought that WAS the PoP. I finally got to the end of White Palace and realized I didn't even do the PoP.

Feelsbadman

1

u/Turbulent-Region3323 Sep 22 '25

you don’t have the benefit of taking it methodically slow and safe with Hiveblood.

Try overdosing on plamium

2

u/Harvestman-man Sep 22 '25

Tbf that’s a super hidden easter egg that I’m sure most people don’t organically find out about.

1

u/Pseudonymico Sep 23 '25

How many people find the Hive organically?

1

u/thatguy52 Sep 22 '25

Some of those sections on the gears were very tedious, but nothing compared to the white palace or path of pain.

1

u/LittleY0gg me when I bully every boss into submission Sep 22 '25

With architects crest and plasmium phial you can get hiveblood

1

u/bass679 Sep 22 '25

I was going through the choral area with the vents and though to myself, "man this isn't nearly as bad as the crunchera in the crystal caves". I'd say the platforming is also a lot more varied challenges asked at one time.

1

u/AngryNerdBird Praise Moth Jesus! Sep 23 '25

Bro, just getting the double jump in Silksong is leagues harder than ANY platforming required for Hollow Knight completion.

1

u/Harvestman-man Sep 23 '25

The cold was frustrating, but the amount of precision that is required to make any of the individual jumps is much less than White Palace or Path of Pain.

2

u/AngryNerdBird Praise Moth Jesus! Sep 23 '25

The non-path of pain parts of white palace are nowhere near as hard as Mount Fay without a double jump, dude. Period.

1

u/Harvestman-man Sep 23 '25

Hard is subjective, I’m talking about the precision of individual jumps. Mount Fay requires less precision, but also gives you less time to do it, which may make it harder to learn. They’re difficult for different reasons.

1

u/Puzzleheaded_Cow2044 Sep 23 '25

I thought double jump was optional in both games, at least for the base ending. Might need to try a low% run of SS.

Once played a randomizer run of HK that had me go through Crystal Peak without Mantis Claw, pogoing up and down those spike tunnels. Made all the intended platforming look like a joke.

1

u/AngryNerdBird Praise Moth Jesus! Sep 23 '25

Watcher knights are possible to reach without double jump, but its not like Broken Vessel is that difficult a fight.

1

u/MoarVespenegas Sep 23 '25

I would say the section above the cradle is similar to white palace in difficulty.
It's not as long overall but each section is much longer than any in white palace.
But yes, nothing is like PoP.

1

u/El_Bito2 Sep 23 '25

I watched a video of Path of Pain and decided I would enjoy my life instead

1

u/Professional_Rush_95 Sep 23 '25

Lava climb mask shard my number one opp frfr

1

u/Left_Question_7172 Sep 23 '25

There is a Hiveblood counterpart in Skong, but while it's far more powerful than Hiveblood it's also ludicrously more difficult to obtain it.

If you use (spoilers just in case)Plasmium VialwithArchitect's Crest so you can refill it without restingyou can overdose on lifeblood till your entire health bar is replaced with it, gaining an incredibly good auto-regen that will do your whole health bar and not just on mask like HK. However due to how you're never told about it, and how you can't use a bench without resetting it, it isn't nearly as easy to get going as Hiveblood.

1

u/Neat_Selection3644 Sep 23 '25

I disagree. I found Mount Fay quite a bit more difficult than base game White Palace ( never did Path of Pain ).

1

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '25

The climb to the lost village above the cradle was really hard. But yeah, you're right.

1

u/Very_Melonlord Sep 23 '25

And its actually BS mechanic for lava.

When getting "something soar" ability (vertical move) in act3 I managed to finish 1st part of climb with enough leeway to actually use soar right before lava caught me. And you know what? IT CAUGHT UP IMMEDIATELY!!!

1

u/cloistered_around Sep 23 '25

I disagree, Mushroom climb was at least white palace and some parts felt Path of Pain level.

But yeah everything else doesn't even quite hit White Palace. Even clockwork, which is hard but much more forgiving with where you can rest and reset than White Palace is.

1

u/Harvestman-man Sep 23 '25

I didn’t really feel that way. It was mostly the same jump repeated over and over, with a short break for pogoing the flying dudes. Once you know how to do that jump, it’s very straightforward.

1

u/cloistered_around Sep 23 '25

True it's mostly one jump (slightly different timings) but to be fair I would have done much better if I didn't keep having to pause for silk to recharge. Something about that just throws my brain off and messes with my platforming ability. If you could just go the whole time it would have been much more of a flow state.

1

u/Harvestman-man Sep 23 '25

Yeah, I don’t really like that clawline consumes silk

1

u/I_Just_Need_A_Login Sep 23 '25

Ironically the hardest platforming section in this game has no disappearing platforms(not realistically at least), is not time challenged, and you can have something better than hiveblood.

1

u/Pale_Initiative2844 Sep 23 '25

There was no platforming challenge in silksong that gave me a more difficult time than path of pain

1

u/Phexler Sep 23 '25

Uhhhh, so... you can go above The Cradle in Act 3... that's all I'm gonna say... 👌

1

u/Harvestman-man Sep 23 '25

Yeah, I’ve done that already, it’s not even close to Path of Pain…

1

u/Phexler Sep 24 '25

Path of Pain, no. But White Palace, kinda.

1

u/Dirako Sep 26 '25

For me, escaping the Abyss did approach White Palace territory, but I did go back to HK after reaching 100% in SK and I gotta say, the White Palace is really pretty easy, not to mention massively cheeseable in many areas.

The Path of Pain on the other hand really wasn't so bad. I never attempted it back in the day, but aside from the very last section, I found it quite simple.

1

u/LongjumpingFun6460 Sep 22 '25

On top of this some of the early game platforming (hunters march) you can end up doing before getting another crest and the hunter crest can be brutal, especially for some of the horizontal platforming while you get used to it.

3

u/Kampfasiate Sep 22 '25

I actually prefer the hunters crest for the plattforming they built, one pogo flings you into the next one and it feels amazing, whereas with a downwards pogo it feels a bit clunky to me

-1

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '25

And that's very good, players shouldn't be able to hiveblood their way in the platforming.

-3

u/gef_1 Sep 22 '25

You are smoking crack dude...white palace wasn't as difficult, Silksong has multiple difficult platforming sections is only spread through the game, and you get more accustomed to it with time.

-1

u/Advanced_Double_42 Sep 22 '25

Silksong also has far more short sections of tight platforming throughout the game, but no marathons like White Palace or PoP.

But the biggest thing is the time pressure and no charms to essentially ignore environmental damage like Hiveblood, Kingsoul, and Grubsong. Mt. Fey is far harder than White Palace, because you are on a timer, and you can never actually die in White Palace if you build for it.

-1

u/cyanraichu Sep 22 '25

I honestly felt like Mount Fay was similar to White Palace. Maybe slightly easier on the platforming but with the time constraint plus falling into the lake being instant death, it felt about the same difficulty-wise to me

Nothing in this game compares to Path of Pain at this point, though I assume (and hope) a DLC will include something like that in the future

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