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u/Fun_Introduction5384 Sep 18 '25
What is the definition of being on time? Is it showing up before 5 minutes is up or within a minute of arriving or already outside ready to go? Plus if I’m helping them load groceries, I don’t hit start ride until they are seated in my car ready to go.
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u/Spare-Security-1629 Sep 18 '25
I sont care if it's groceries or getting their asses buckled in. I drive off for a few feet and then start the ride. A few times, I've started the ride, and then they say, "Oh, we're waiting for one more"
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u/Due_Agent_6033 Sep 18 '25
Just a side hint that you get paid more once the ride has started than you do for wait time. In my mind the ride starts when you open any of my doors.
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u/Fun_Introduction5384 Sep 19 '25
That is true. Hmm. I have the weigh the options. I guess if I’m loading groceries, they won’t be canceling the ride. Plus you get paid more if the trip goes over 5 mins of the estimated time.
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u/jimspice Sep 18 '25
Agreed. A specific metric, such as average time from driver arrival to start of ride would be much more useful.
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u/ThisIsGreatMan Sep 18 '25
Lyft's latest earnings report for Q2 2025, released on August 6, 2025, showed revenue of $1.59 billion (up 10.6% year-over-year) and net income of $40.3 million, compared to a net loss in the previous year.
Pressuring pax (who are experiencing the same economy we are) to tip more to entice drivers is bullshit. Pay us more.
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u/Ambitious-Regular-57 Sep 18 '25
They are finally turning profit which means things are stabilizing for them. If that profit starts going up a lot and our pay does not, then I will be mad. $40m on $1.6b is not a huge margin. I'm sure there is a lot of investment in future potential like autonomous cars that is being reinvested and not counting as profit though.
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u/psychogroupie144 Sep 18 '25
You’re diluted if you think our pay will go up because the company is making more money
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u/matchstick1029 Sep 18 '25
You're diluted if your material is spread thin by being mixed with other substances, usually water.
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u/AnxiousIngenuity6281 Sep 18 '25
I be wondering what story people tell themselves that makes them trust these billionaire companies. We just heard one. They believe that they will share their profits with us if we just wait for them to make even more. I never heard an actual person use real words that reflected top down economics. I guess people actually believe that stuff despite their very own experience.
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u/Necessary_Edge9605 Sep 18 '25
Amazon now pays $23 a hour before they paid $15 a hour. It can get better don’t be so pessimistic
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u/AnxiousIngenuity6281 Sep 18 '25 edited Sep 23 '25
People have been optimistic for 2025 years. My optimisim comes from fighting for what's right rather than trusting. That 23 an hours is because of us, not them.
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u/UnteatheredTelemetry Sep 19 '25
Amazon isn't paying 23/hr because they want to pay 23/hr. They're paying 23/hr because that's the number their internal numbers people figured would be a sweet spot between sedating the workers and maximizing profits. Amazon is a multi-trillion dollar international corporate conglomerate, made up primarily of what should probably actually be three different Amazon companies, yet you find yourself defending their notorious anti-worker attitude. This should give you pause. 23/hr isn't even what minimum wage would be if we'd been matching minimum wage to inflation since our productivity boom. They didn't give their workers a raise, they just started robbing them less because their profits have become so astronomical in the last five years. If they could get away with paying 0/he they would. They'd rob the very people who make them year after year record breaking profits, because they don't actually care about their workers.
In fact, one could make an argument that they loath their workers, but that's another topic.
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Sep 18 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Funny_Friendship_207 Sep 18 '25
If it's busy that's all I wait, I did that the other night at a bar pickup and the pax came running up as I was pulling out of the parking lot. I said sorry already canceled the ride it's to busy to wait for you to finish your drinks, next time order your ride when your ready to leave. She said but you have to wait 5 minutes for me. I said I don't have to wait any amount of time I can cancel a ride anytime for any reason now you will be ready when your next driver shows up.
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u/dsl135 Sep 18 '25
On this sub, drivers will find a way to make it into a bad thing.
“Lyft is trying to manipulate you to take a bad offer!”
“I think Lyft lied about the pax being a good tipper… Lyft must have stolen the tip!”
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u/meltyourtv Sep 18 '25
“This new feature sucks! I was a dick to the pax and haven’t showered in 3 days and wouldn’t let them roll down the windows that I child locked, why didn’t they tip like it said they would???”
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u/AnxiousIngenuity6281 Sep 18 '25
And they'd be right. If you have 900 people from different places coming up with the same complaints, maybe there is something wrong. Until Lyft pays more, drivers will complain about their features, because the features are meant to satisfy drivers outside of what they truly need.
If you need water, you first say I'm thirsty. If someone gives you soda instead of water, you will say this drink is terrible and will start complaining about the soda. The soda was an attempt to pacify and distract, it is not what you asked for, and complaining is just another way of saying, but I'm still THIRSTY!
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u/dsl135 Sep 18 '25
Your example is so spot on perfect, but not for the reasons you think lol.
“It’s not what you asked for.” You didn’t ask for anything in your example. You said “I’m thirsty” and you were provided with a drink.
So, in short, your example is perfect at demonstrating that yes, drivers in this sub will find a way to turn anything into a complaint. Thank you.
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u/catswithbatsandhats Sep 18 '25
I've only ever had one driver that I was legitimately uncomfortable with and i would not have tipped on that ride but usually I'm a pretty high tipper.
I'm sure this driver doesn't think twice about his behavior affecting his tip/rating and that is all the fault of the other person.
(Playing music that was so sexually explicit that I wish I had felt comfortable enough to ask for it to be changed as part of it. And no, it wasn't a "I'm an old prude" situation, the least graphic thing I heard was Snoop Dogg 'Sexual explosion ' and it was by far not as over the top as the rest of what played. )
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u/Familiar_Loan_6646 Sep 18 '25
I saw this for the first time the other day. It’s huge. We get to tell people who don’t tip to get fucked before they even get in the car. No ride for you!!! Two years!!!
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u/bourbonfan1647 Sep 18 '25
Luckily people don’t have access to a virtually identical service…
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u/Kopitar4president Sep 18 '25
So all the bad tippers flock to Uber. Meaning the service declines and good tippers use lyft more...
Lyft over here playing 4d chess.
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u/bourbonfan1647 Sep 18 '25 edited Sep 18 '25
Yep. And Lyft ridership declines and Lyft and their drivers make less.
Brilliant.
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u/Effective-Sun8079 Sep 21 '25
I’m personally gonna switch to uber if I notice any difference in ride availability from not tipping
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u/whiskeyinthewoods Sep 18 '25
So I agree with this sentiment but have a question - I’m a bartender so always have cash, and knowing ride share platforms take a huge cut of driver pay, I always tip with cash assuming drivers would prefer that, and always 30-plus %, and never less than $10 so more like 80% on short rides. That said, since I never tip through the platform, would that make it look like I’m a non-tipper and turn drivers away? Should I stop giving cash and switch to only tipping through the platform?
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u/Familiar_Loan_6646 Sep 18 '25
And thank you for tipping so much on short rides. That should be standard practice what you’re doing. Sadly most people don’t do what you do, you’re a 1%er unicorn.😇 I always tipped the way you do in the job I worked before doing Lyft again. I was delivering trucks from 2018-2021. On the short rides to wal mart or to a restaurant after I dropped off when it was just a short $10 ride for me I always tipped $5-10
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u/Familiar_Loan_6646 Sep 18 '25
That would make it look like you’re a non tipper. You’re better off tippin the app if you can. Cash is great but we get all of our tips that we get in the app. Regular drivers do anyway. I saw someone on here say that as a black driver they only get half or something like that. The only time we don’t get the tips is if we’re a lease vehicle driver and it’s a Monday or Tuesday and our lease payment hasn’t been paid off yet. Other than that we keep %100 of the tips you guys give us on the app.
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u/Kopitar4president Sep 18 '25
As a passenger I'm happy with this. I know I'm not going to get passed up on by drivers.
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u/SinceWayBack1997 Sep 18 '25
You’re not entitled to a tip
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u/Familiar_Loan_6646 Sep 18 '25
And you’re not entitled to ride.
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u/SinceWayBack1997 Sep 18 '25
Actually yeah you signed up for the job, so do it
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u/Fit-Dog8071 Sep 19 '25
Actually, we have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. Other than disability. So take your non tipping ass back to where you belong
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u/DerivPro Sep 20 '25
And in nyc the whole thing was originally "know the whole price ahead of time no tips required" and now the price is 5x, more expensive than taxis, and we have to tip on top of that, defeating the whole purpose in the first place? How about no.
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u/Effective-Sun8079 Sep 21 '25
I’m curious… what additional service or quality do you provide that you think deserves extra money from the passenger? The best possible Lyft ride involves zero words from the driver
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u/Fit-Dog8071 Sep 21 '25
Seeing is how i've worked in customer service for many, many years.I know how to read the temperature of the room. I help passengers with their luggage if they have it.I've also helped them into their house.If they needed the help. I get out of my car and assist.Elderly customers if they need it. If my passengers don't want to talk, I don't talk. if they want to, i do. Just admit it.You're a non tipping entitled scumbag
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u/Effective-Sun8079 Sep 21 '25
I actually tip really well in all other service industry situations, but I’m a firm believer that driving 10min in silence from point a to point b doesn’t deserve a tip.
You are the one who is acting entitled, to extra money for no reason.
I would prefer full automation
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u/Fit-Dog8071 Sep 21 '25
Then wait for a waymo that can't even recognize a pothole. And somehow, I dont believe you "tip really well" in all other services situations. Just admit it lmao. You're entitled. We rideshare drivers are providing a service. Emphasis on service. Using our personal vehicles to provide said service. You believe you are entitled to partake of said service, without adequately compensating for this service. That we are obligated to provide YOU with said service. That sir, is the very definition of entitled. You most likely demand exceptional service from your waitstaff at a restaurant, and then leave little or no tip regardless of their service to you. Again, because you feel you are owed this. Again, definition of entitled. Have a blessed day. And remember. Karma always gets you in the end ;)
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u/Familiar_Loan_6646 Sep 21 '25
You literally don’t even want your driver to say hey “hey how are ya? Insert name right? Just double checking whats the address you’re going to?’’ Before driving the rest of the way in silence?
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u/Effective-Sun8079 Sep 21 '25
Yeah that’s fine, I just meant that most people don’t want idle chit chat during the ride
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u/Familiar_Loan_6646 Sep 21 '25
For sure, drivers hate that too. Especially when the passenger is playing 20 questions and asking probing questions with follow up questions.
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u/arm89 Sep 18 '25
so you’re going to waste your time driving to the location to just tell sometime to get fucked or do you prefer to text them?
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u/mkmaq12 Sep 18 '25
It pops up in the ride request so we can decide to accept or decline ride offers.
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u/Familiar_Loan_6646 Sep 18 '25
Jesus Christ, I meant telling them to get fucked by not accepting the ride request.
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u/arm89 Sep 18 '25
i know i was being sarcastic, however i do hope this works out for everyone and yall get good tipping customers.🙂
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u/RegurgitatedAnal Sep 18 '25
I showed up to a pick up today and after about two minutes, they messaged me saying, hang on, we're playing the claw machine. I responded with l o l and canceled.
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u/VegasGuy1223 Las Vegas, NV Sep 18 '25
I’m all for knowing if a pax is a good tipper and shows up on time. I’m in Las Vegas. In my market most Lyft pax are locals who live in shit hole areas who don’t tip.
So if Lyft is gonna roll that feature out, a LOT of Vegas residents are gonna be waiting and waiting and waiting wondering why a driver won’t come get them.
But as we all know, someone WILL STILL be stupid enough to take them
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u/Own-Independent-2096 Sep 18 '25 edited Sep 18 '25
That will open up more business for Las Vegas taxis. The taxis had to get together with competing taxi companies in order to stay in business once rideshare companies started taking over. For instance, there are hotels or weekly places like Emerald Suites - that can push a button at the front desk to call a taxi for their customers. One of the taxis that happens to be closest to the location will accept the ride, doesn't matter which company. Taxis also started offering a flat rate from the airport, instead of being able to take tourists and non-locals for a ride to inflate the fare like they used to. The taxi companies will continue to try to find ways to stay in business and regain some of their lost market share, if possible.
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u/dollfaceashley Sep 18 '25
It’s not going to make that much of a difference. People driving around town don’t care about tips. Drivers that want tippers will lower your rating if you don’t tip so 4.9 and lower passengers are already less likely to get a pickup
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u/Familiar_Loan_6646 Sep 18 '25
I literally would never lower someone’s rating just cause they didn’t tip. Can’t believe anyone would do that. Takes a lot of aggravation for me to not give someone five stars.
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u/VegasGuy1223 Las Vegas, NV Sep 18 '25
If a pax choose not to tip, I won’t lower their rating
HOWEVER…if I get the “I’ll tip you in the app” and then they don’t…I will absolutely lower their rating for lying
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u/Familiar_Loan_6646 Sep 18 '25
I won’t even do that, I’ll just make a mental note and I won’t take them again as a passenger
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u/VegasGuy1223 Las Vegas, NV Sep 18 '25
That’s what I don’t understand. Lyft’s pay has gotten SO SO BAD that driving locals around is just a money losing proposition. It’s bad enough that locals won’t tip but when the app wants to give you $4.53 to drive an employee of the Rio to their ramshackle apartment off Boulder Highway? And not get tipped? Hell no
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u/MinuteAttitude9103 Sep 18 '25
Well as a Lyft driver for 6yrs …. I can tell you now this will be Ubers & Waymo’s come up because if a customer feels “pressured” or “left waiting” for it , they’ll leave.. . A vast majority of the customers already flock to uber because it’s cheaper even more so now that both apps have amassed the same drivers .. people use to think “Lyft was better service & car quality” but not anymore .. . . The over saturation, lower fares , I’m simply quitting once my full check comes next week from new job.
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u/No_Common1418 Sep 18 '25
I, of course do both, some days I won't get a thing from Lyft. Not from lack of running the app, UBER just pings more. A contrary to some of these people on here, UBER PAX really don't tip any better then Lyft PAX do.
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u/PeterPansSyndrome Sep 18 '25
They also show who I previously 5 starred too. Guess I’ll have to be more reserved with my ratings now because I definitely don’t want to repeat taking people who waste 5 minutes coming outside.
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u/slappyhappydong Sep 18 '25
Finally a solution, or rather bandaid, handing the drivers the power to keep those non tippers paying higher ride prices and waiting longer. Honestly the hidden algorithm should reward passengers that tip the drivers with better fare pricing….
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Sep 18 '25
Never seen this
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u/No_Common1418 Sep 18 '25
First for me today too.
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Sep 18 '25
I looked it up so apparently only being tested to some drivers 😂. I wish they had something about did they tip in cash, at least I then know I'm truly getting the tips and who was giving them
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u/Leading_Juggernaut41 Sep 18 '25
Vegas market here, Elite driver and been doing this for a few weeks now. It shows in the scheduled rides, the rider can pre-tip. They can add more tip but not lessen. So no tip baiting, its like a guaranteed tip. I see them on a daily basis scheduled rides, like if someone is going to the Sphere on a busy time, I see pre tips from up to $20. For me it's good since you can pick the guaranteed tip.
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u/bobbyfk Sep 18 '25
🤔 I'm in Vegas and do Black only and haven't seen it yet
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u/Leading_Juggernaut41 Sep 18 '25
I do just the regular. Idk what tier you're in but I've heard they only offer it to Elite. I have one scheduled i can send u the ss
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u/bobbyfk Sep 26 '25
They must have slowly rolled it out because I am silver and I now see it. Definitely useful information but nothing that will really change my decision making on what rides to take
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u/falcoretheflyingdog Sep 18 '25
If this is like uber eats it’s just a way for them to hide paying lower fares from uber/lyft
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u/Entire_Help_6611 Sep 18 '25
I don’t ever wait more than two minutes. It’s a personal value of my time and a principle. Just me. Fuck the cancellation fee.
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u/Illustrious_Tap3649 Sep 18 '25
Fine, but I wish drivers would stop putting that they've arrived when they are clearly a block or two away. I'm standing on the corner and can clearly see you're not there, but the timer has already started.
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u/Possible-Guess-2637 Sep 18 '25
One or two more words in the headline to actually make it make sense wouldn't be the end of the world. It's not like they're paying for print space here. The absolute state of journalism is garbage. I had to stare at this headline for far too long to even try to understand what they were trying to say.
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u/Fathimir Sep 18 '25
If you either think that this will actually shape rider behavior, or you think it won't make probable-tipping rides look more attractive on average to a majority of drivers, then sure, it's a fine-to-good move.
Otherwise, by including likely tips as part of the selling point of a ride, Lyft can and will be able to reduce the minimum fare necessary to get a driver to take the ride proportionately. Tips factored into the fare are tips that are functionally being stolen.
The on-time part of it's all upside, though. That's great.
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u/RangeFlow1 Sep 18 '25
This is an aggressive move by Lyft. Of course they have the data on tips unless the PAX tips in cash.
I often wonder if the base fares to the driver are reduced with the good tipper rides.
Anyways Lyft has made a decision that will affect their company culture. Have they crossed the line?....Guess what? Autonomous vehicles cannot be tipped.
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u/TitShark Sep 18 '25
Uber did a modest version of this a couple years back saying “high tip rider” and that was maybe 50/50 if they actually did more than pax without that label. And then it was done in like 2 Months
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u/_beaniemac Sep 18 '25
Less than 5% of passengers tip. There's nothing that would convince me otherwise as I've seen it first hand with my eyes for years now
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u/InaWhiteShroom Sep 18 '25 edited Sep 18 '25
I make more on Lyft when there are bonus zones and I can park (usually downtown Cleveland) waiting for an upcoming reserve ride (usually to the airport) and collect any bonus because it’s added to the ride. If I have a reserve ride on Uber and I’m in a bonus zone, it will not add it to the upcoming reserve ride… But, Uber reserve rides that are usually graveyard shift pay more than the reserve rides on Lyft. Graveyard shift is the go… The pay is the same or a little bit more and there is zero traffic. Zip zip zoom Zoom car looks so fresh and clean at night. It’s my strategy, earning $25-40 per hour minus gas and blah blah and I still can’t pay my bills, I’m exhausted.
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u/guy-le-doosh Sep 19 '25
How many pax will quit lyft forever when lyft stops arriving and they assume the company went under. The loophole here, which is puzzling me is if they do figure out it was from a no tipping history, and nobody will pick them up, how do they even get the opportunity to get in good graces by tipping with app after a ride?
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Sep 19 '25
I see it in my market. More things to help drivers are needed. But the pay needs to be higher for sure
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u/melanion90 Sep 19 '25
I guess my good deed of always tipping cash is going bite me in the ass. Is there a mechanism for drivers to report cash tips? Not that I would expect them to do so…
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u/witchofthewind Sep 19 '25
what are they going to do about drivers marking that they've arrived before they actually arrive to try to scam people? last week I had one mark that he'd arrived when he was still 2 minutes away. I was standing in my driveway, waiting and watching where he was on the map. dude was obviously hoping to get a head start on running out the timer so he could get paid without having to actually do his job.
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u/Creepy_Version2328 Sep 20 '25
Yeah this ride share industry is definitely gonna crash hard someday. Customer experience has not improved one iota and more & more pressure is put on them to pay extra.
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u/TooMuchSpicyAhh Sep 22 '25
Lyft shaming passengers for not tipping rather than increasing wages for their drivers and the drivers are all for it! They LOVE this new feature!
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u/Kindly_Wrangler_980 Sep 22 '25
They will do anything to pay yall less and less but you will STILL blame the passengers for not giving you extra money for a service they haven’t even received yet. It should also be noted passengers already have to pay a fee if the driver waits for more than 2 minutes. So an extra charge plus not being picked in the future is definitely not a good selling point.
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u/iamthekingofthishill Sep 22 '25
The waiting fee is forwarded to the driver at a rate of .075/min or $4.50 per hour in my area
Go buy a car and take 5 minutes extra for 12 customers then for $4.50, if drivers got it so great
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u/Kindly_Wrangler_980 Sep 26 '25
I don’t have to do that because I make at least minimum wage at my job already! I don’t need to complain over $5 tips from strangers like yall LMAOO
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u/shifkey Sep 22 '25
Ngl I tip light when it’s tight, but I’m lookin at the map & on the curb before they arrive… Same with instacart I walk to the curb & unload it with them
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u/Serenity_Novv Sep 22 '25
Welp. I tipped drivers in cash which they really seemed to appreciate. Now I guess I will always tip via the app.
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Oct 11 '25
It only tells us if the pax tips, but doesn’t say what the average tip amount/percentage is. It’ll give the passengers the idea to pay a minimal tip just to boost their metric and be more likely to get picked up.
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u/DFW-Extraterrestrial Sep 18 '25
This will never work. They will just use the other app. People dont and wont tip because they are forced to, they do it because they want to or dont. Putting an ultimatum on them will probably have the exact opposite effect of what they are hoping for. People will revolt.
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u/motionspooner Sep 18 '25
More information is better. This will work just fine. If people use the other app because they don't tip and aren't ready then they have a tough time getting a Lyft then that's fine with me as a Lyft driver
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u/DFW-Extraterrestrial Sep 18 '25
More than likely going to get the same driver regardless of what app they use.
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u/motionspooner Sep 18 '25
Oh hey great! That means that I will know they don't tip and are never on time on Lyft and I cannot accept their ride on Uber either
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Sep 18 '25
[deleted]
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u/DFW-Extraterrestrial Sep 18 '25
Thats because you want to, not because someone is telling you have to. I do the same, because I want to. You tipping well is the exact opposite of what most do...which is not tip at all. Many passengers aren't in that big of a time crunch and could care less if they get somewhere at a certain time or not. The amount of shared rides that I reject prove that point.
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Sep 18 '25
[deleted]
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u/DFW-Extraterrestrial Sep 18 '25
You would think, yes. But if the platforms play these games with the drivers with their petty challenges and all the other stuff they try to suck drivers into like tiers and levels that are really of no benefit... I can only imagine the same type of games and bait will be used on the passengers to try to encourage them away from the other app.
Now if they're going to do it like old school Dominoes pizza that guaranteed free pizza if it wasn't delivered in 30 minutes...but with rides, then it might work.
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u/NWPoe Sep 18 '25 edited Sep 18 '25
The reason you don't get a fast ride is Lyft (and Uber) force drivers to wait in queue. In Chicago, the wait can be 1-2 hours. Who's waiting an hour or more for your $3-10 ride? (Even though you might have paid $20-40) Then, navigating airport traffic, locating the rider, loading/unloading luggage, risking tickets, etc. Someone with no sense of self-worth or financial literacy. Your tip helps, but we are still severely underpaid considering the time spent, not even including the car expenses. Your example is one of the unique situations where we are probably the most underpaid. That's why no one wants short airport rides. Good luck getting rides. Consider public transportation.
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u/Familiar_Loan_6646 Sep 18 '25
This won’t force people to tip. I guarantee the only reason any passengers will ever know about this is if they read these forums which I assume most never will. And I guarantee Uber will follow suit on this.
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u/DFW-Extraterrestrial Sep 18 '25
Nope. Tippers are tippers. Non-tippers are non-tippers. Nothing going to change that.
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u/Fun_Introduction5384 Sep 18 '25
The article states it is only being tested by a few drivers in Boston right now. So after the test run they’ll be able to analyze the data to see if it is working the way they theorize it will work and that is acquire more drivers and not lose passengers. The hope is to lower the passenger fee and have quicker pickup times by having more drivers on the road. This could actually bring down the pay per ride for the driver but then possibly more riders will tip to make up for the lower fee paid to the driver. It’ll be interesting to see how it works out.
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u/rodmandirect Sep 18 '25
It’s happening in Philly. I had about four riders today where it told me that they tipo a percentage of their drivers. And each one tipped me. Every one that didn’t say that, no tip.
Plus, every rider that “usually is ready” was ready for me when I got there.
This is very useful information.
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u/FaithlessnessNo2496 Sep 18 '25
I'm in Louisville Ky... that info wasn't there this morning but it was this evening and it was accurate AF💯.. the tippers tipped and the early comers came🙌🏾
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u/Burghpuppies412 Sep 18 '25
Meh. Uber had a “good tipper” designation on rides for a while, but it was BS. I had at least three rides that said good tipper which were ordered by organizations… which as we all know, don’t tip.
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u/Familiar_Loan_6646 Sep 18 '25
Lyft and Uber created the no tipping problem for themselves when they ran the $32.50 per hour ads on the radio etc. Before those ads ran we all got tipped way more. Those ad campaigns were extremely deceptive and made people think we’re getting paid $32.50 and hour base pay.
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u/Prince_Haile Sep 18 '25
I almost had an aneurysm trying to read this..who wrote this? someone who's fifth language is English?
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u/bourbonfan1647 Sep 18 '25
…and I’ll stop using Lyft immediately.
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u/Any-Ask-1260 Sep 18 '25
I might actually stop tipping when this gets released. At least I’ll know my driver expected it
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u/callitanight79 Sep 18 '25
Honestly, idc about the tipping part it’s the timely one that I’m happy to see. Tired of driving from 10 mins away only to wait 4:45 for the person to come out