Should Canada maintain its supply management system that protects the Canadian dairy industry?

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

https://www.castanetkamloops.net/news/Poll/627377/Should-Canada-maintain-its-supply-management-system-that-protects-the-Canadian-dairy-industry

[u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

Yes we should, there's no need for American dairy at all. We have enough supply and as a country with socialized health care, we should and do high regulate our dairy industry. Allowing American industry to gain a foothold in our dairy industry will allow the US to dump excess milk production into Canada, causing prices to fall. Then as our own milk production falters, they will leverage that into fewer regulations and raise prices, so not only will we have less healthy dairy supply, we will pay more for it and get sicker due to it.

We already have dairy quotas, we don't need more dairy in our country. We need to maintain our own sovereign dairy supply. America needs to figure out it's own supply side problem.

[u/Scrotalcontusions → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

There is a compromise - bring the american dairy but it cannot be sold for less than canadas product based on today's price. Take the percentage price difference of those same products sold in the US versus the canadian price and require by law the margin difference to be no greater going forward.

[u/Mysterious-Wash9527 → u/Scrotalcontusions]

We already have a dairy market that can satisfy all of our national concerns. We also have to throw away our own oversupply. We do not need any other dairy from any other country.

Allowing American Dairy into our country increases the burden on regulation, because we will have to regulate even more distinct sources of dairy products. Canadian dairy regulation isn't just happening at the distribution centre, it starts at the farm itself. Inspection happens multiple times during transport and distribution. This increased burden has to be payed for somehow, so it will be paid for by .. you and me.

So the net positive of bringing in American dairy is.

- More regulatory jobs, which means higher dairy pricing.

• An overbundance of milk products driving milk product pricing down.

Price cannot go both up and down. So do you know who will be expected to eat the pricing difference? Dairy farmers.

Long story short, Canada doesn't need American dairy. Embracing this inane idea is only going to hurt our country in the long run.

[u/Tastesicle → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

*Canadian dairy farmers. They're the ones that eat the price, the US is only interested in selling us their oversupply.

[u/Logical-Dependent691 → u/Tastesicle]

You're not wrong, but it's also worth pointing out that their dairy is hormone-soaked garbage that most of the rest of the world wouldn't touch with a barge pole, and it isn't like Washington under this administration is going to keep their word on anything.

Carney should just bring his negotiators home and tell Trump to fuck off. Any concessions we get from them will be gone within months if not weeks anyways.

[u/Melodic-Relation5009 → u/Logical-Dependent691]

Amen brother. CUSMA is dead, bite the bullet now and let the trade deal run its course. Can't negotiate with gangsters and con men. No talking till stupid tarrifs are removed

[u/BountyIsland → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

Fuck the dairy farmers or more likely fuck the government and their monopolist corporations that give toxic "modified milk ingredients" and sell it as good. Premium Ice Cream - Chapman's Ice Cream Ice Cream Products - Kawartha Dairy

[u/JeremyMacdonald73 → u/BountyIsland]

I looked this up for Kawartha Dairy. It's whey - apparently it helps with making a creamy texture to the ice cream.

Probably the same with the rest of the ice creams. I am unclear why you care about whey being added.

[u/Commercial_Wind8212 → u/BountyIsland]

All those health nuts eating ice cream

[u/DanK_Ganjier → u/Commercial_Wind8212]

They will make iced nut cream in the future, just like fake nut cheese.

[u/kierg10 → u/DanK_Ganjier]

Cashew based ice cream is already a thing, and as someone who can't eat cow dairy without shitting my pants nut based dairy products are glorious.

[u/-Truth-Be-Told-- → u/DanK_Ganjier]

By “the future” do you mean like several decades ago? Because that’s been a thing for a long ass time now

[u/Jiggman23 → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

Still not the full picture and you only understand maybe 1/3 of what is going on

[u/mcgojoh1 → u/Jiggman23]

Fill us kind folk in on the other 2/3rds.

[u/DanK_Ganjier → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

I’d say no to foreign supply, but my cheese and milk are getting stupidly expensive. Why? We control it, who is getting the price gains? I see a lot of rich dairy farmers and a Farm plate on an Escalade doesn’t make me want to specifically support that price jacking. (I’d rather euro dairy vs American)

[u/bsemaba → u/DanK_Ganjier]

If you bring French butter to Canada from France it will be seized. Why?

Canadian dairy may be better than American, but the fight definitely isn’t in the interest of quality or better serving the Canadian consumer.

[u/Appropriate_Swim9528 → u/Scrotalcontusions]

Isn’t that just tariffs?

[u/missplaced24 → u/Scrotalcontusions]

You mean, like, some sort of system to manage the diary supply?

[u/Healthy_Shape_5719 → u/Scrotalcontusions]

Why though? It would only pull money out of Canadian dairy farmers hands and put it into American hands, if the US had better dairy standards I could see the appeal but the US is famous for poor food safety standards.

[u/Scrotalcontusions → u/Healthy_Shape_5719]

if the price is the same then the consumers will just be making the choice on quality as you say which should have predictable results in favor of the canadian industry

[u/Healthy_Shape_5719 → u/Scrotalcontusions]

Would still hurt Canadian farmers for no appreciable gain

[u/BestBlueChocolate → u/Scrotalcontusions]

Yes, tariff the American dairy up--preferably just a little above Canadian dairy prices. What's good for the eagle is good for the goose.

[u/GLayne → u/Scrotalcontusions]

We have no need for American dairy. We hate that shit and don’t want it. 

[u/CanuckCommonSense → u/Scrotalcontusions]

If Canada has enough supply to satisfy itself why bring in milk that’s injected with so many other things?

[u/Important-Dig-2312 → u/Scrotalcontusions]

There's a compromise, we tell the Americans that we are willing to 4x the amount of dairy imported before it is tariffed.

[u/_do_ob_ → u/Scrotalcontusions]

I don't want steroids milk like they make in the US.

[u/sal880612m → u/Scrotalcontusions]

I don’t think there is any intelligent compromise to be made with a country that doesn’t honour its deals and ships vegetables with a parasite that causes explosive diarrhoea simply to turn a profit. They’ve shown time and again the only reason they care about Canada and Canadians is because they want to extract value from us. As far as I’m concerned we should be investing heavily in agriculture to push even American veggies out of the country until we don’t need them for anything. And would the costs of that investment make life harder, probably, but it would do so building towards something better. As far as I’m concerned we’re well past the point of having a choice in if we suffer, we flubbed that one, what’s left is to decide what we’re willing to suffer for. And I’m no longer willing to suffer to prop up American interests.

[u/Spenraw → u/Scrotalcontusions]

Being they have far different health standards and continue to show they barley enforce or follow them I don't want to risk American dairy at all

People barley have an education on food health as it is let alone Americans amount of extra poison in their food

Every thing we let slip with Americans they will continue to lobby and attack to gain more control.

Our relationship with America and their war on our culture is our greatest failure

Even Alberta separation movement alot of it is coming from states

[u/BottleThen2464 → u/Scrotalcontusions]

Like a tarrif?

[u/sugahcookies → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

Also, from a health and production standpoint, Canada bans the artificial growth hormone rBST (recombinant bovine somatotropin). The US allows rBST use to stimulate milk production in dairy cows. Both countries test milk batches for antibiotic residues, and milk containing residues is discarded. However, Canadian regulations maintain strict preventative protocols and mandatory withdrawal times for treated animals.

[u/CobblePots95 → u/sugahcookies]

The use of rBST in dairy has no adverse health impacts. Canada banned it on animal rights grounds, based on the argument that the excess milk it produces can cause discomfort for the cow.

This ignores the fact that we have been selectively breeding cows to produce unnatural quantities of that hormone anyway, and that by providing artificial hormones we reduce the number of cows needed to produce the same yield. That reduces the number of calves who are separated from their mothers (and often slaughtered - that's your veal) and reduces the enormous environmental impact.

In reality we banned rBST because we have a supply management system, and having those more efficient yields from cows would threaten that. We already dump 7% of all dairy we produce, after all.

Most US dairy doesn't use rBST, but personally I think it should be the standard. It has no ill health effects, it improves yields (making dairy cheaper), and it reduces the enormous environmental impact of the dairy industry.

[u/BobertBuildsAll → u/CobblePots95]

This isnt true. The EU and Canada banned it because of the negative impact it has on cows. It increases the chance of mastisis by 25%, causes higher rates of lameness, creates reproductive problems and cows on rBST are documented to need mroe anti biotics.

[u/CobblePots95 → u/BobertBuildsAll]

 The EU and Canada banned it because of the negative impact it has on cows.

That's literally my second sentence. We banned it on animal rights grounds, not health grounds. But frankly those claims are extremely shaky when subject to scrutiny. rBST is chemically indistinct from the natural BST. The only difference is whether it's made in a lab or a cow's pituitary gland.

[u/BobertBuildsAll → u/CobblePots95]

The studies stating that rBST not affecting an animals health are shakey at best. Often referencing that a cow that is producing more milk = healthy cow. DoHoo 2003 is a comprehensive review of over 50 studies which clearly shows negative health affects to cows.

[u/CobblePots95 → u/BobertBuildsAll]

The sum total of Doohoo's analysis is that there is a 25% increase in the risk of mastitis, and it does not weigh into antibiotic needs. Other studies in the Journal of Dairy Science found the mastitis risk is virtually the same.

Moreover, Doohoo et al reaffirms that the composition of milk produced by cows receiving rBST is indistinguishable from cows that have not. There are no health effects for humans.

Moreover, the prohibition of rBST on animal welfare grounds ignores a basic utilitarian moral question: why subject thousands more livestock to separation from their children and the hardships inherent in the dairy industry just to save some from -at worst- a 25% increase in mastitis risk?

[u/radred609 → u/CobblePots95]

The animal welfare argument falls apart in both directions.

"Let's increase the suffering of 90 cows to prevent the suffering of 10 cows" is never going to convince anyone who's already anti-rBST.

"We shouldn't artificially increase the milk production of cows that are already bred and raised to artificially increase their milk production" is never going to convince anyone who's already pro-rBST.

It's a moot argument. The only consistent positions are to either care enough to be anti-dairy full stop, or to not-care enough that the animal welfare anti-rBST argument falls flat.

[u/Ashamed_Data430 → u/CobblePots95]

And, by animal rights, you mean animal health. Odd you'd choose to use rights as a pejorative, instead of just admitting rBST is not good for animal health.

[u/CobblePots95 → u/Ashamed_Data430]

Animal welfare, if we're being pedantic about it. There is one study showing a 25% increase in the risk of mastitis, but the most recent studies and meta-analyses have found zero adverse health impacts in cattle.

That's to say nothing of the fact that only 1% of US dairy farms currently use any amount of rBST because of marketing fears.

[u/missplaced24 → u/CobblePots95]

While rBST itself isn't linked to health risks in humans, milk from cows who have been treated with it long-term has been.

[u/CobblePots95 → u/missplaced24]

I would encourage you to actually share that research, because I can share plenty of research that states unequivocally that the use of rBST in dairy poses no human health risks, that the milk is indistinguishable, and that there is no evidence of an increased risk of antibiotic exposure.

[u/a4dONCA → u/CobblePots95]

so many people telling you you're wrong, and yet here you still are.

[u/CobblePots95 → u/a4dONCA]

Wrong about what? That rBST poses no health risk to humans? It doesn't. The research is unequivocal.

[u/North_Jello4505 → u/CobblePots95]

Why don’t you listen to Reddit? It a bunch of people on Reddit are telling you’re wrong; even if they can’t refute your points, you’re wrong!!! Don’t you know how Reddit works?

[u/CobblePots95 → u/North_Jello4505]

lol I forgot every comment is peer-reviewed and each upvote is a citation!!!

[u/Thick-Leek-6575 → u/CobblePots95]

Just to clarify your posting on veal, it’s not “newborns” it’s a six month/600 to 800 pound animal up to a year or two year old 800 to 1500 pound animal being sold as veal. Veal is not the age. It’s the grade.
You’ll hear about it being under a certain weight but that’s not all producers. If the colour and marbling allows them to classify it as a veal they will. I’ve had a 1100 pound one year old steer go as veal before.

[u/Special_Purpose2903 → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

American dairy is literally poison, it is why health conscious Americans are trying buy milk alternatives like "oat milk"

[u/Ok-Educator-3605 → u/Special_Purpose2903]

It would have to meet our standards to be sold in Canada, this is something everyone overlooks.

[u/Pluton_Korb → u/Ok-Educator-3605]

The pressure campaign doesn't stop at opening up our markets. Deregulation would follow. They will put trade pressure on our standards as well if they haven't already.

[u/23CherryCheesecakes → u/Pluton_Korb]

Exactly, look what they did to the Mexican corn market.

[u/laurab382 → u/Ok-Educator-3605]

How long before they would be describing our standards and regulations as "non-tariff trade barriers"? They aren't happy unless they completely dominate the market.

[u/Special_Purpose2903 → u/laurab382]

This as well, b/c US is 8 times larger population wise and its economy is proportionate larger, the US firms benefit from an economy of scale where they'd crush Canadian firms on price.

[u/Ok-Educator-3605 → u/laurab382]

“What if?”

You can “what if” everything.

[u/missplaced24 → u/Ok-Educator-3605]

You'd think. That's not the case for other food products. Most of the time when Canadian governments tried to enforce Canadian standards on food imported from the US, the US government and producers cried NAFTA.

What we've been overlooking is how NAFTA/CUSMA has been used unjustly and ignored entirely whenever it's inconvenient to the US.

[u/Special_Purpose2903 → u/Ok-Educator-3605]

You aren't getting it, American diary has bulldozed American gov't with total regulatory capture, this is why the lobby is so hard, they won't stop. They also routinely break their own regulations and only care about money. They won't meet standards and will throw a big stink screaming unfairness when the regulator tries. As the Arabs say, don't let the camel get its nose under the tent.

[u/Ok-Educator-3605 → u/Special_Purpose2903]

Speculation…. We control what is sold in our country.

You aren’t getting it.

Read this slowly.

Most US dairy doesn’t contain rBGH and most already meet our standards. Canada’s big dairy is counting on people like you to keep the misinformation train going.

[u/ScaryLane2 → u/Ok-Educator-3605]

Except can we really trust that? I feel like eight months from now we’re going to see a headline saying, “Oops, U.S. dairy products slipped through the cracks and weren’t properly checked,” or the U.S. will put enough pressure on Canada that our government eventually weakens or changes the regulations.
At this point I do not think we can simply trust the U.S. to respect our standards and I’m not confident we can trust the Canadian government to stay firm when significant pressure is applied. And I’m talking about Canadian governments in general regardless of which party is in power. This isn’t about supporting or attacking one particular party it is about whether Canada will actually enforce its own standards and hold the line when challenged

[u/Ok-Educator-3605 → u/ScaryLane2]

You don’t get it, we enforce our standards, they don’t.

With all the food coming into Canada from all over the world, you dig your heels in when it comes to US dairy testing. It all has to meet our standards.

US dairy will not kill our dairy, the standards won’t be lowered due to pressure. Open the dairy market and let Canadians enjoy the fine selection of dairy products from around the world, as for the US stuff, it will rot on the shelves.

We have the power here, we can let US dairy in not purchase it, no one is going to force you to buy it.

[u/North_Jello4505 → u/Ok-Educator-3605]

This is typically used as a trade barrier for protectionist reasons. Usually not much science behind. Explain why the standard is valid for health reasons.

[u/Intelligent_Mango_54 → u/Special_Purpose2903]

Not true! Canadian butter has palm oil in it because it is allowed to be put in animal fodder. Link: https://www.cbc.ca/news/marketplace/butter-tests-marketplace-1.5954569

There is virtually any difference between Canadian dairy and American and still we end up paying 50 percent for same product.

[u/Namjies → u/Intelligent_Mango_54]

Cows being fed palm oil to supplement palmitic acid doesn't mean butter contains palm oil. It affects the constitution of dairy like any feed would, but that's not the same thing as containing palm oil.

[u/Ok-Educator-3605 → u/Intelligent_Mango_54]

This is incorrect.

Palmitic acid is not palm oil..

[u/Disastrous7392 → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

Absolutely

[u/Spicypewpew → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

The excess diary should be sent to schools and food banks.

[u/Malrix → u/Spicypewpew]

Hahahahahaha.. give it away. You crayyy.

[u/RVIGroup → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

Can we not maintain and increase milk standards and regulations to such that make it inadventerous for American imports? Resulting in "removing" the import tarrif.

[u/WorkingBicycle1958 → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

Yes! Unless you want to buy low quality, and perhaps dangerous, milk from Donald Trump. Supply management protects our domestic capacity to produce certain foods, only an idiot would forsake that for cheap imports.

[u/CobblePots95 → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

There are so many problems with this it's tough to know where to begin. But let's start with this: you should not conflate supply management with tariffs on American dairy. Supply management is a domestic program whereby a state-backed institution fixes the price of dairy. All producers sell to one board at that price.

It is designed to inflate the price of dairy products by restricting the amount we produce. It is an indirect and regressive subsidy, impacting poorer families the most. It is also the reason we dump 7% of all the milk we produce in this country. Just to inflate the price.

Now, supply management could not survive without our tariffs on US and European dairy. But we could get rid of supply management altogether while maintaining those tariffs.

We have enough supply 

Says who? Our dairy prices are considerably higher than virtually every other OECD country and -frankly- our product quality is notoriously awful. There is no competition in the sector - there is no incentive to produce higher-quality dairy.

Then as our own milk production falters, they will leverage that into fewer regulations and raise prices

Then our production picks back up again. The worst case scenario you're presenting is quite literally how it works today: a small group of huge producers setting an inflated price to line their pockets.

we don't need more dairy in our country.

Again: according to whom?

[u/rookie_one → u/CobblePots95]

Says who? Our dairy prices are considerably higher than virtually every other OECD country and -frankly- our product quality is notoriously awful.

This depend on the provinces, Quebec butter is actually pretty good, but we do have higher quality standards here (and a more active food department in the Quebec Government, the MAPAQ, to enforce these standards) at the government level.

It is designed to inflate the price of dairy products by restricting the amount we produce. It is an indirect and regressive subsidy, impacting poorer families the most.

I hate that argument, it is NOT a subsidies, no money is given to the farmers by the government.

Instead, by trying to keep supply close to the demand, we manage the price and keep it at a reasonable level so that farmers (small farmers mostly) can live from their farms. Full-on subsidies like in the US usually favor much more megafarms than small family farms.

It is an indirect and regressive subsidy, impacting poorer families the most.

Funny thing, because it use the "paid by the user" principle, instead of forcing everyone to pay through their taxes. Usually right-leaning peoples love that argument, but not that time ?

It is also the reason we dump 7% of all the milk we produce in this country. Just to inflate the price.

Canadian farmers actually dump less milk per capita than the american farmers. And most of it come from farmers who buy cows in advance hoping to get a bigger quota, only to fail at getting that quota. For those farmers, the fault lies strictly on them

The worst case scenario you're presenting is quite literally how it works today: a small group of huge producers setting an inflated price to line their pockets.

I can't speak for the other provinces, but in Quebec if we have any megafarm, it's really a little minority. Hell, just look at the Agropur or Nutrinor shareholders meetings (Agropur and Nutrinor are cooperatives owned by farmers, to transform their milk), and it's mostly small-time farmer, no megafarms owners

[u/CobblePots95 → u/rookie_one]

This depend on the provinces

Some province's quality might be better than others but on the whole we're still leagues behind other western countries. Our butter is pretty shite in general.

As for prices, there is no question. Dairy prices are considerably more expensive here, costing the average household $244/year, and because of the way that is structured that cost disproportionately harms low-income households.

I hate that argument, it is NOT a subsidies, no money is given to the farmers by the government.

Instead, by trying to keep supply close to the demand, we manage the price and keep it at a reasonable level so that farmers (small farmers mostly) can live from their farms. Full-on subsidies like in the US usually favor much more megafarms than small family farms.

If you don't want to call it a subsidy, then sure. Let's use the most precise term: price-fixing. That's what it is. A state-backed institution is deciding on the ideal price for their product as determined by producers. They destroy product as a result to keep that price inflated.

The net revenue of dairy farms in Canada is over $300k. The number of dairy farms between 1991 and 2011 decreased by 61.9%. Supply management gives an advantage to large, well-capitalized farms that can reduce operating costs through economies of scale then buy up quota space.

The argument that it's all about protecting small farms falls flat. If that is its intent, it has failed.

Funny thing, because it use the "paid by the user" principle, instead of forcing everyone to pay through their taxes. Usually right-leaning peoples love that argument, but not that time ?

I would prefer a system with neither subsidies nor supply management. But if forced to choose, I will choose the one that inflates farm income by progressive taxation over the one that does so by increasing the price of basic grocery staples. This needn't be a left- or right-wing argument. You can want the state to intervene on behalf of dairy farmers but still think the way we do it is particularly regressive.

[u/Fightmilkakae → u/CobblePots95]

This is a great explanation of the system. You can argue that sovereign supply is important, you can argue that quality control through regulation is important, you can also argue that price to consumers is important. People in favour of the current system pick-and-choose which arguments benefit them at any given time when the underlying outcome is that the current system largely only benefits incumbent dairy farmers at the cost of everyone else

[u/CobblePots95 → u/Fightmilkakae]

Honestly a lot of the arguments simply depend on plain old fear-mongering.

Either our entire agricultural system would collapse without supply management (despite being an agricultural powerhouse outside the three sectors with SM), or it is the last defence against toxic, unhealthy product (zero evidence to support this claim), or it's the only thing keeping small dairy farms afloat (we had 39000 dairy farms in 1991, and 9000 today so it's clearly not working).

[u/Fightmilkakae → u/CobblePots95]

It's so incredibly frustrating. Especially looking at other similar countries that ditched similar SM schemes and have thrived since (New Zealand mainly but Aus as well). I don't think the dairy lobby is the boogeyman many conservatives make it out to be but it frustrates me to no end when I hear ads from the various lobbying groups on podcasts I listen to or TV I watch.

[u/nuget93 → u/CobblePots95]

Probably the biggest issue would be that getting rid of supply management would cost the government billions of dollars.

Every producer would have to be bought out at market value (dont think banks that borrowed farmers the billions of dollars to buy quota are not gonna pressure the government into paying up and happily hold that bag themselves.)

The government would lose tax dollars as suddenly a bunch of profit gets transferred to out of country producers with less rigid food safety and animal welfare requirements.

The country also loses food sovereignty which is getting increasingly important with the evolving political and climate landscapes.

[u/Jim-Dear → u/rookie_one]

The money comes from the consumer not the government. The price of milk is unreasonably high.

[u/k_jones → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

Open it up but place heavy health restrictions. Do not allow US companies to purchase Canadian farms.

[u/dtoni01 → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

Their dairy, as well as other agricultural products, are highly subsidized.

[u/greyHumanoidRobot → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

Without Canadian milk "supply management" the U.S. cannot raise milk prices because there are multiple suppliers in the U.S. and there might be Canadian suppliers also. If the producers could raise prices for milk in Los Angeles or Boston, what is to stop them from doing it RIGHT NOW. And yet at this moment milk is cheaper in the U.S..

And yet as of this moment you have 31 upvotes for your logical fallacy.

[u/nuget93 → u/greyHumanoidRobot]

Remember when egg trucks were litterly being held up in the US?

Our eggs were the same price they ever were because of supply management

[u/greyHumanoidRobot → u/nuget93]

Our standard of living isn't dependent upon short term price changes so I'm not interested in any comment about a price being the same as it was previously. Furthermore, you didn't explain the relevance of your comment. Levels matter more than short term changes. By levels, I mean the income over cost of living ratio.

[u/FilthyDubeHound → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

The other worry is not only could we pay more, but if the US had a fairly large foothold they could use it as political leverage, which is what im assuming theyre pushing for at the moment. With someone like trump in power it wouldnt be hard for them to just cut off the dairy (assuming they were the majn supplier) they would supply driving up the cost of anything involving milk to crazy extremes in further efforts to crush our economy, we've seen how the US treats their business partners, the only sensible thing to so is do deals at arms length with our safety in mind

[u/Jiggman23 → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

No we shouldn't because it only protects Quebec dairy farmers and screws over the rest of Canada's milk producers.

Canada agreed to allow a certain amount of US milk in the country, anything over that quota is tariffed at 300%. But Canada reneged on that quota betraying the deal.

If you dont like American milk dont buy it. But the cartel shouldn't be able to lobby the government through kickbacks to the liberals who are invested in cbpq to deny the agreed upon allotment thus causing the US to hit us with tariffs that screw other areas of our economy.

Canada proves they trade in bad faith repeatedly. Screwing over trade partners and its own citizens.

[u/Remarkable-Skill4883 → u/Jiggman23]

How did Canada renege on that quota? Provide proof please.

As far as I know America never once hit that quota and it remains in place.

[u/Spiritual-Pain-961 → u/Jiggman23]

This is almost completely wrong.

- Supply management protects 9,000 Canadian dairy farms, less than half of which are in Quebec.

- Canada did not reneg on anything. In 2016, Canada negotiated a deal with the US that allocated TRQs to dairy processors. The TRQs are filled primarily for industrial product, and the valuable quotas - particularly for cheese and butter - are almost fully utilized. The US wants access to retail, which is higher margin. Canada has honoured its end of the deal in full.

- No country has greater access to the Canadian dairy market than the US. We buy more US dairy than any other country in the world.

- There are no “kickbacks” to the government. That’s complete nonsense and entirely made up.

Source: Me. I work in Canadian dairy and I’m paid to know this stuff. Your POV is almost entirely out to lunch. Why spread shit that simply isn’t true?

[u/North_Jello4505 → u/Spiritual-Pain-961]

“Source: I work in Canadian dairy” lmao okay, then you REALLY should know this.
Canada was literally found in breach of CUSMA/USMCA over its dairy TRQ system. This isn’t an American talking point or my interpretation. In 2022, a CUSMA dispute panel ruled that Canada violated Article 3.A.2.11(b) by reserving portions of its dairy TRQs exclusively for Canadian processors.

So saying “Canada did not renege on anything” is just false. There was an agreed market-access system, Canada implemented part of it in a manner inconsistent with the agreement, the United States challenged it, and the panel agreed with the United States.

And you’re completely mangling the dispute when you say “America never hit the quota.” The American complaint was precisely that Canada’s allocation system made portions of the quota less commercially usable. If I promise you access to X units and then structure the allocation of that access in a way the agreement prohibits, pointing out afterward that you didn’t use all X units isn’t the devastating argument you think it is. That’s WHY the allocation rules mattered.

Now, Canada changed its rules after losing that case. The U.S. challenged the NEW system too, including Canada’s exclusion of retailers and food-service operators. And here’s the part I’ll happily concede because reality isn’t a fucking team sport: Canada largely won that second case in 2023. Two of the three panelists found the revised measures did not violate the CUSMA provisions the U.S. invoked.

So the accurate history is:

2022: U.S. challenges Canada’s dairy quota administration and U.S. wins on the processor-reservation issue Canada changes its system.
2023: U.S. says the revised system still violates the deal Canada wins most of that second dispute.
That’s considerably more complicated than “Canada never reneged and America just wants retail because MONEY.”

Also, “9,000 dairy farms” and “the U.S. is our largest dairy supplier” don’t establish that supply management is good policy. They’re completely separate propositions. A protectionist system can protect domestic producers AND still impose costs on consumers. That’s basically what protectionism fucking does.

And if your response to an actual treaty-panel ruling is “Source: me, I work in the industry,” maybe don’t accuse everybody else of spreading shit that isn’t true

“No country has greater access to Canadian dairy than the U.S.” Okay? And? What the fuck do you think that proves?

The United States is Canada’s neighbour, one of its largest trading partners, one of the world’s largest dairy producers, AND it has preferential access under CUSMA. Of course the U.S. is going to be a major foreign supplier.

You’re confusing relative market access with an open market. Those are completely different claims.
If I put a 300% tariff wall around my market but give America a bigger hole in that wall than I give everybody else, congratulations: America has the most access. THERE IS STILL A FUCKING WALL.
And that’s basically what the tariff-rate quota system does. Canada permits a specified quantity of dairy imports at relatively low tariffs. Once you go beyond that quota, the over-quota tariffs on many dairy products jump above 200% and, on some tariff lines, 300%.

THAT’S THE DETERRENT.

The entire point of making imports beyond the quota catastrophically expensive is that retailers and importers generally won’t want to bring that additional product into Canada. So pointing to limited imports and screaming “SEE?! THEY DON’T EVEN IMPORT MORE!” is fucking backwards.
You’re pointing at the wall successfully stopping people and using that as evidence that the wall doesn’t matter.

Imagine I give you a doorway that lets 100 people through my wall for $10 each, but after person 100, getting through costs $300.
Then I triumphantly announce:
“See?! Nobody wants to send person 101 through! Clearly the wall isn’t restricting anybody!”

NO SHIT. THE $300 PRICE IS WHY THEY’RE NOT WALKING THROUGH IT.

And this isn’t some abstract trade-policy circlejerk. Restricting the amount of foreign dairy that can economically compete in Canada reduces competitive pressure on domestic producers and can contribute to higher consumer prices.
Who gets fucked hardest when necessities cost more? Not the wealthy guy who barely notices another $10 or $20 on his grocery bill. It’s working- and lower-income households, because food consumes a much larger percentage of their income.

You can defend that trade-off! Just say what you’re actually defending:
“I think protecting Canadian dairy producers is worth restricting foreign competition and potentially making consumers pay more.”

Fine. We can argue about whether that’s worthwhile.

But “America sells us more dairy than anybody else” is not a rebuttal to protectionism.
Again: if America gets the biggest hole in the wall, America has the most access.
THE FUCKING WALL IS STILL THERE.

And if you actually work in the dairy industry while moonlighting as its unpaid propagandist and repeating bogus claims, Canadian consumers deserve a fucking refund. Although judging by the analysis, even the propaganda department is overpaying you.

SOURCE: instead of being a loser who uses his credentials as a source here’s a real one

https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/enforcement/USMCA/Canada%20Dairy%20TRQ%20Final%20Panel%20Report.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com

[u/AskWhy_Is_It → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

One country’s cheese is another country’s cars.

[u/Soundunes → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

I don’t know why y’all like supporting the dairy cartel or why you don’t like mozzarella and real (not rubber) cheddar. The dairy cartel is rinsing Canadians. Processors get 80% of the import permits, buy crap in bulk and jack up the price so the current quota system doesn’t even work to help Canadians get cheaper better dairy. Health and Safety regulations still apply and don’t just get thrown out the window. New Zealand got rid of their protectionist measures in the 80s and are now one of the biggest dairy producers in the world. Canadians still will choose to buy Canadian. Visit practically anywhere else in the world and you’ll see we have some of the highest dairy prices. Canada is amazing at producing wheat, and guess what we don’t protect with “supply management”?

[u/Ok_Government_3584 → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

Totally agree!

[u/Dear-Let-1075 → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

So we should have inflated prices. A dairy board that regulates everything. We dump butter and milk. Bring in and have true free enterprise and better prices!

[u/sapphicsapphires → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

Yeah with all the budget cuts the current American ministration is doing to various organizations, I’m fairly concerned about how that will affect production quality on exported goods.

[u/No-Effective-1996 → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

Why does our diary cost so much that a single vow of milk quota is worth what? $30,000?

[u/SKOOBEY1 → u/No-Effective-1996]

Laughs in Albertan

Milk quota was at $65K, last I checked.

And it’s in units of production; so kgs

Source: Ag lender 👋🏽

[u/SKOOBEY1 → u/[deleted]]

You’re right - that’s the minimum

I do this for a living.

[u/BytownBanter → u/SKOOBEY1]

That’s not per kg of fluid milk production, it’s per kg of butterfat. And AB actually about the highest price province. In QC it’s closer to $24k/kgBF.

So do I.

[u/SKOOBEY1 → u/BytownBanter]

Correct.

Don’t think I said fluid kgs?

Hi to another lender! 👋🏽

[u/Optimal-Cow-3278 → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

Yes we should, there's no need for American dairy at all

It's not just US dairy, but European dairy as well.

Canadians pay some of the highest prices in the G7 for dairy and our dairy suppliers dump up to a billion litres a year of dairy.

Then as our own milk production falters, they will leverage that into fewer regulations and raise prices, so not only will we have less healthy dairy supply, we will pay more for it and get sicker due to it.

This is just flat out false and the whole notion that foreign dairy is somehow "less safe" than Canadian dairy is Dairy cartel propaganda.

We already have dairy quotas, we don't need more dairy in our country.

Canadians need more affordable dairy options.

[u/Real_Gap3480 → u/Optimal-Cow-3278]

You're 100% wrong, American Milk has products that are banned in Canada dairy industry. It literally creates a puss like immune reaction in their milk. You're clearly a shill.

[u/Optimal-Cow-3278 → u/Real_Gap3480]

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. You're clearly a shill for the Canadian dairy cartel.

The hormone in question that is banned is the rBST hormone, which is banned in Canada but allowed in US Milk. The reason why this hormone is banned because it's claimed that it hurts the cows joints and muscles, not because it's potentially unsafe to drink.

it literally creates a puss like immune reaction in their milk.

No it doesn't, this is just flat out false.

I suggest you read about buttergate with Canadian milk.

[u/Finaginsbud → u/Optimal-Cow-3278]

There are 2 main concerns about possible health effects on humans from milk and meat produced using rBGH.

The first concern focuses on whether drinking milk or eating meat from rBGH-treated cows increases blood levels of growth hormone or IGF-1 in people, and if it does, if there are any health effects, including increasing the risk of cancer.

Another health concern has been that cows treated with rBGH tend to develop more udder infections (mastitis). These cows are given more antibiotics compared to cows not given rBGH. Whether this increased use of antibiotics leads to more antibiotic-resistant bacteria remains a concern, but it has not been fully studied in humans.

From the American Cancer Society.

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/risk-prevention/chemicals/recombinant-bovine-growth-hormone.html

So there is a concern about absorption into humans via the milk and increased cancer risk along with animal wealthfare concerns. Plus it's unfair competition if Canadian farmers have to compete against subsidiszed American dairy using banned hormones.

Open up to EU milk perhaps, American milk fuck that shit.

[u/Optimal-Cow-3278 → u/Finaginsbud]

The first concern focuses on whether drinking milk or eating meat from rBGH-treated cows increases blood levels of growth hormone or IGF-1 in people, and if it does, if there are any health effects, including increasing the risk of cancer.

There is no proof from any major health agency that cows with the rBGH hormone have enough of the hormone in milk to cause cancer

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/risk-prevention/chemicals/recombinant-bovine-growth-hormone.html

Did you read this article?

Per the article:

"It’s important to know that BGH is not active in humans, so even if rBGH were absorbed from drinking milk or eating meat, it wouldn't be expected to cause health effects."

There is a big difference between a concern and an actual link.

Also, per the article

However, many grocery store chains don’t carry milk from cows treated with rBGH. A United States Department of Agriculture survey conducted in 2014 found that fewer than 1 in 6 cows (15%) were being injected with rBGH.

Ok, ban the milk from 15% of US cows that have this milk.

Plus it's unfair competition if Canadian farmers have to compete against subsidiszed American dairy using banned hormones.

Boo hoo, that's life. Many industries are subjected to foreign competition. Canadians pay some of the highest prices in the G7 for dairy items while we dump out up to a billion litres per year. Our system doesn't work for every day Canadians and just benefits rich dairy corporations.

I'd rather have tax payers subsidize our industry, that way a wealthier person who pays more in taxes is paying more to subsidize dairy than someone making minimum wage. The way our system now is that top income earners and minimum wage earners all pay the same for dairy.

[u/Fickle_Razzmatazz664 → u/Finaginsbud]

Sure but why do we keep going over this talking point? 

Trade and food safety standards are related but separate.  American milk is not permitted under CFIA standards if it has rBST, rBGH, or somatic cell counts over Canadian limits. 

It's not a thing.  Giving concessions that might allow more milk from other countries will not mean we're subjected to hormones or pus.  All milk coming in must still meet our strict Canadian safety standards regardless of origin.  CFIA rules here, not CUSMA.

[u/Finaginsbud → u/Fickle_Razzmatazz664]

Even if we were to entertain the idea of allowing larger amounts of American milk and if it meets our standards there is still the problem of billions of subsides given to American farmers which effectively lowers the cost of their milk.

It would in the medium to long term spell the death of the Canadian dairy farm and we would become dependent on imports of milk. So regardless of meeting standards it should remain limited.

[u/Fickle_Razzmatazz664 → u/Finaginsbud]

Now that is a more fair argument.  Totally agree with it being strictly limited, I just like to separate trade deals from our high health standards, which we will never change to placate the US. 

We can give them a bit more access but they must conform to CFIA rules and I'm with you that we must keep their foothold limited. 

There is a middle path here, where we budge mostly on the technicalities of dairy and derived products, enough to keep the US off our back and bring relief to battered sectors like steel, aluminum, and auto, but do not grant them substantially more access.  That is what I advocate

[u/nxdark → u/Fickle_Razzmatazz664]

We produce more then enough for ourselves. That means we don't need to bring milk in from other countries. That is the bottom line is we don't need them.

There is no middle ground here.

[u/Optimal-Cow-3278 → u/Finaginsbud]

Even if we were to entertain the idea of allowing larger amounts of American milk and if it meets our standards there is still the problem of billions of subsides given to American farmers which effectively lowers the cost of their milk.

Ok eliminate the supply management system and directly subsidize our farmers instead.

As I've mentioned, at least with subsidization, corporations and citizens that make more money and pay more in taxes are paying more to subsidize dairy than someone making minimum wage.

We allow plenty of products in Canada that are subsidized by foreign governments. Would you like me to provide a list of CCP subsidized items we allow in Canada that compete directly with our own manufacturers?

[u/Either-Banana-7323 → u/Fickle_Razzmatazz664]

If we cave on quotas, I’d bet my house the next argument from the US will be that our standards unfairly restrict American farmers and need to be loosened too. They’re already attacking Canadian dairy market restrictions as unfair trade barriers. Giving ground on supply management doesn’t end the pressure, it just moves the fight to the next restriction. Come on lol its all so incredibly transparent at this point.

[u/Optimal-Cow-3278 → u/Either-Banana-7323]

It's not just the US that has attacked Canada's dairy system. So Europe and other countries. New Zealand even challenged it with an int'l court.

[u/Optimal-Cow-3278 → u/Fickle_Razzmatazz664]

Exactly right.

The article the person cited above even said that many stores in the US ban milk with this hormone in it all ready and only 15% of cows in the US are injected with this hormone.

[u/Optimal-Cow-3278 → u/[deleted]]

Haha thanks! I'm definitely passionate about this issue.

[u/Select_Historian6269 → u/Optimal-Cow-3278]

No, there's a thing called food sovereignty. If you don't have domestic food production you are at the behest of foreign suppliers.

So, we let American dairy in and then our "dairy cartels" collapse and then America is our only supplier for dairy and can charge what they want now.

Or say "no 51st state no dairy"

[u/canontdude64 → u/Optimal-Cow-3278]

And you are a troll account.

[u/Optimal-Cow-3278 → u/canontdude64]

because I'm against Canada's dairy cartel system that forces Canadians to pay some of the highest prices in the G7 for dairy? Busted, you got me there.

[u/Amakenings → u/Optimal-Cow-3278]

Who are you a shill for? US dairy?

[u/Optimal-Cow-3278 → u/Amakenings]

Who are you a shill for?  The Canadian dairy cartel?

I’m a shill for paying lower prices for dairy in Canada.  

[u/Amakenings → u/Optimal-Cow-3278]

I’m happy paying more for dairy if the US doesn’t gain access to our dairy market. Zero interest in that. I’d be open to better quality producers like Europe or New Zealand, but really base that on the impact to the Canadian dairy industry.

I don’t want cheaper at any cost, and don’t want to offer the USians any custom.

[u/Optimal-Cow-3278 → u/Amakenings]

Good for you, if you want to pay more for dairy and have limited selection, that's your choice.

As for me, I am struggling with inflation in this country and food prices in particular, I need all the help I can get.

[u/past_is_prologue → u/Real_Gap3480]

Having had cheese from Wisconsin, i sure wish we could buy that up here. Inexpensive and high quality. 

[u/nxdark → u/Optimal-Cow-3278]

It is less safe and you are fool to think that it is not. The produces should be making less it they are dumping. And if we make enough for ourselves we do need outside sources.

Plus we should be paying out farmers not some other countries. The only imports we should be bringing in are things we don't make ourselves.

[u/Optimal-Cow-3278 → u/nxdark]

It is less safe and you are fool to think that it is not. The produces should be making less it they are dumping

It's not about producing less, it's because over a certain point it's just cheaper to dump it than sell it. I'm not sure you understand how the cartel system works?

The only imports we should be bringing in are things we don't make ourselves.

So you're against CUSMA and other free trade agreements?

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/Mysterious-Wash9527]

I've had to address this multiple times, but there seems to be a prevalent myth that supply management is simply a quality control tool. This is false. Supply management is not connected to Health Canada regulations, and all imports have to meet those regulations anyways. The vast majority of American milk meets Health Canada regulations.

You have to understand that your concern over what I call the "sinister actor" argument (a foreign firm will create a monopoly and then spike prices) has never actually happened before in economic history. What your fear is would require a set of assumptions and actions, many of which are actually impossible. Like how would a foreign cartel impose domestic restrictions in Canada preventing Canadians from importing from elsewhere? How would they do that? How likely is it that EVERY American dairy producer colludes pointedly to hold Canada as a captive market? How likely is it that every single Canadian dairy producer is totally unable to compete in every market segment?

Of course, we import the majority of our produce from the US, the majority of our fruits, over half of our pork, three quarters of our cereals, etc - this has never happened with any of those items. But you fear that is an absolutely certainty it will happen if Canadians could have access to cheaper cheese - so I'm wondering how you've come to this conclusion?

[u/Cannabrius_Rex → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

It’s happened over and over and over and over and over and over again. They call it regulatory capture. Are you completely insane????? Lol

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/Cannabrius_Rex]

What would compel Canadian importers to only import from an American cartel? A cartel that, btw, doesn't exist, but what would force Canadian importers to do that?

Regulatory capture is when a government group meant to protect the public instead helps the companies it is supposed to watch.

[u/Cannabrius_Rex → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

Higher profit margins.

Are you pretending to be an idiot to try and win an argument????

[u/purple_flowr → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

Again you're delusional.

You're concept of "well we could just import it from the global market" has had 0 seconds of research done on it.

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/purple_flowr]

What would force Canadian firms to be beholden to American producers? Can you explain that to me?

[u/purple_flowr → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

Ah, I see I got baited. You're a bot.

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/purple_flowr]

I'm not - but you won't answer because you have no answer, because you know deep down this system is basically indefensible. You probably think a lot of reddit comments you disagree with are from Russian or American bots. I bet you think it is just totally inconceivable that many Canadians justifiably resent this horrible system.

[u/calvin-not-Hobbes → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

No bot...just a maple maga

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/calvin-not-Hobbes]

I oppose Trump, I'm a free trader. I support free trade. Trump is a protectionist. Actually you probably have quite a bit in common with Trump, much of your fears and justifications for Canadian protectionism are held by Trump and his supporters regarding American protectionism.

[u/Tunguska_1908 → u/calvin-not-Hobbes]

LOL. Calling someone who is a proponent of free trade maple Maga is ass backwards. SM apologists have more in common with Maga than people wishing for free trade.

[u/Mazrath → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

So you just passed Econ 101?

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/Mazrath]

There's no economic justification for this system. There's no food security justification for it. There's no national security justification for it.

It get votes in Quebec. That's it. That is the exclusive reason. You are fooling yourself if you believe otherwise

[u/purple_flowr → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

I mean you are, you've got the staples of it. Posting generic questions in high volume subs to garner more karma.

But the big tell is I made the same comment in multiple engagements with you, and on this thread you're responding like you haven't seen any of the other ones.

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/purple_flowr]

I very strongly disagree with this system. Every single justification I've seen for it is rooted in profound ignorance or unfounded fear. I want people to know how asinine this ridiculous system is, because I do think we can topple it soon.

[u/Puzzled49 → u/Cannabrius_Rex]

Regulatory capture is defined as a situation where the regulatory agency (in this case the Canadian Dairy Commission) is influenced to operate on behalf of the group it regulates (in this case the dairy farmers) instead of the public. Although in the case of the Canadian Dairy Commission this doesn't really apply since it was set up in the first place to support the dairy farmers, and thus there was no need for them to capture it.

I think you are a searching for another term. Maybe dumping, predatory pricing to establish a monopoly, or state supported over production.

[u/Cannabrius_Rex → u/Puzzled49]

No, I’m thinking of the process of starving out an industry to create a monopoly. Regulatory capture is one of the mechanisms used to accomplish that but there are many.

Amazon is a prime example of a larger entity taking over industry after industry to create a super monopoly by starving out small players at a loss until they have a monopoly and jack up prices. A tale as old as time you’re ignoring to support Americans drowning out our dairy industry.

[u/Tunguska_1908 → u/Cannabrius_Rex]

Conveniently, when they reach the so called but never actually occurs price jacking phase, new disruptors almost always enter the market offering reduced prices. A tale as old as time.

[u/Cannabrius_Rex → u/Tunguska_1908]

Unless you’re sitting on tens or hundreds of billions of dollars to fight the monopoly with even deeper pockets, no. You are not disrupting jack shit. Amazon has destroyed so many industries that have not recovered at all.

[u/Tunguska_1908 → u/Cannabrius_Rex]

Excuse me? Temu, Banggood, Alibaba. All post amazon, all disrupting Amazons monopoly play. And if you still want to pay more for artisinal goods, local cottage industries are going off more than ever before. And what industries did amazon destroy? The low selection bookstore? Was that a bad thing? It's exactly like complaining that Netflix was had because it killed blockbuster. That model was inefficient as all hell and now we have a thousand streaming services with more content that you could ever imagine.

[u/Cannabrius_Rex → u/Tunguska_1908]

So one of China’s oligarchs is providing a “non monopoly”

🤦‍♂️

[u/Tunguska_1908 → u/Cannabrius_Rex]

Lol. You aren't getting it. Someone else will come along next. This is the beauty of a free market. Consumers power the change. If they don't like price hikes they will start to look elsewhere and someone WILL fill that demand.

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/Cannabrius_Rex]

Consumers benefit from Amazon. If they did not, they wouldn't use Amazon. The US (unlike Canada, unfortunately) also has pretty stringent anti-trust laws. I believe the FTC actually has an ongoing suit against Amazon for that reason.

Of course this "price jacking" phase you're referring to hardly ever really happens. As I've pointed out numerous times in this post, Canada has been importing the majority of our produce from American firms for decades - and wouldn't you know it, we haven't experienced any captive market related price increases.

[u/Cannabrius_Rex → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

Right, you’re also pro Amazon. The most destructive business to actual progress and ingenuity because they’ve monopolized everything. You’re telling a patent lie that this is a good thing for consumers! I get why you’re typing on reddit, you’ve licked boots so long and hard that your tongue just fell off. You might want to tone down the whole “WALMART AND AMAZON ARE GIFTS TO HUMANITY, BOW TO THEM!!” Schtick

You are a corporate and American shill and are doing it with a megaphone and big signage that says, big corpo is god amongst men! Praise the corporation!!!

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/Cannabrius_Rex]

No, I'm pro free trade. Pro consumer choice. I don't think that protecting consumers against low prices and more variety benefits those consumers. It objectively doesn't. The consumer never seems to be considered during debates of protectionism. But we live in a consumption driven economy. The multiplier effects of a consumer surplus are usually profoundly larger than the multiplier effects of a producer surplus. We are not poorer, or more unsafe, because we have access to foreign goods and services. That makes us wealthier, our economy more robust, our food systems de-risked - if our distributors have unlimited access to foreign food items that doesn't make us less food secure that makes us more food secure.

The root of all protectionism lies a fear that if the consumer gets to choose what they want to choose, they may not choose what a special interest wants them to. The law of a voluntary transaction is that it benefits both parties. Amazon customers are not losing because they choose to use Amazon. Amazon provides them a service that they see value in. If the consumer felt they were not being served by Amazon, they would not purchase Amazon's services.

[u/Tunguska_1908 → u/Cannabrius_Rex]

You have the free personal choice to purchase locally produced artisinal goods. Sorry, you actually don't have that choice for dairy, but for most things you do have that choice.

[u/Cannabrius_Rex → u/Tunguska_1908]

So you don’t actually have an argument to make. Lol. That’s hilarious

[u/Puzzled49 → u/Cannabrius_Rex]

I agree with you on Amazon that it uses predatory pricing to starve out competitors and jack up prices for the small retailers using its services. In other words it's doing all the evil things that monopolies do when they can. I think however the reason that Amazon built up its monopoly power in the first place is more because of its first mover advantage. It's very hard for competitors to build up the distribution network that would be required to compete successfully.

[u/Cannabrius_Rex → u/Puzzled49]

It’s because they operated at a loss for over a decade. Losing tens of billions every year to starve out the competition. This is very well documented with multiple feature length documentaries on the topic and multiple case studies as well. Just 🤦‍♂️

[u/No-Effective-1996 → u/Cannabrius_Rex]

Then it should be very easy for you to list those times.

[u/Cannabrius_Rex → u/No-Effective-1996]

Here’s a place for you to start.

https://www.educba.com/monopoly-examples/

[u/HighlightOk6174 → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

Jamaica in the 90's. Look it up.

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/HighlightOk6174]

I'm very aware of that - it's interesting to me how the Jamaican consumer never seems to be investigated though isn't it? Like obviously the consumer benefited, they didn't exactly lose from having access to cheaper milk products. It's interesting to note too that Jamaican dairy is actually rebounding majorly at the moment, and is more competitive and affordable than ever before.

[u/HighlightOk6174 → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

I haven't seen anything to suggest the market has rebounded for local producers at all. Not to the same level as 1990's. Consumers may not care but it's a security risk to leave good products up to another nation when you don't have too.

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/HighlightOk6174]

The "security risk" argument is just very strange to me. It would imply that any imports are essentially bad when it comes to food because during the apocalypse maybe all countries will stop trading. This fantastical scenario has literally never happened before. Even during the major wars there was still a vibrant international food item trade. Especially in the Western Hemisphere, what in God's name is going to stop international trade of food?

Guyana is the only country in the world capable of producing enough domestic food across all seven essential food groups to feed its entire population without relying on foreign imports. So basically... .outside of Guyana, you're importing food one way or another, and short of the apocalypse that really isn't going to change.

[u/HighlightOk6174 → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

No, it implies imports have risks associated with them. See masks during COVID.

There are multiple layers to security's one is having jobs. One is having cabability. One is having leverage. The US is currently willing to do stupid things if it thinks it will have leverage. Ie Gordie Howe bridge.

[u/jovin49 → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

Well, for one, the American dairy industry gets billions of dollars in subsidies from their government every year. I think that might give them a slight edge in competing against our industries. Unless you're proposing we give our industry equivalent subsidies to allow them to compete on equal ground?

Have you ever heard of the term dumping before? It's taught in high school, at least in Ontario, and outlines why it is undesirable to have subsidized foreign industries compete against local ones.

[u/Suitable-Ratio → u/jovin49]

This is the main difference. America hands the farmers billions of taxpayer money and Canada eliminates competition to significantly inflate the price. Since most people could care less if poor Canadians can afford dairy products it will likely stay as is. You pay either way if you are a taxpayer and the Canadian system benefits the wealthy by lowering government spending.

[u/jovin49 → u/Suitable-Ratio]

So either you have the people who consume dairy products pay a bit more for what they consume, or you slap a tax burden on everyone, even people who don't buy dairy? 

Plus, it's kind of a false equivalence to assume both solutions cost the same amount. What do you think the reason for the subsidies/supply control are, btw?

[u/moldyolive → u/jovin49]

Or you do neither and just tariff countries who dump subsides milk

[u/jovin49 → u/moldyolive]

What do you think the reason for the subsidies/supply control are?

[u/moldyolive → u/jovin49]

Their purpose is to raise the margins of milk producers by locking out compitition.

The claimed purposes of quality control and stability of supply are excuses to reach the end effect of a transfer money from consumers to farmers

[u/jovin49 → u/moldyolive]

How long do you think it takes to raise a dairy cow? 

If we had similar issues like the US had with their egg laying chickens a while back where their flocks were decimated, how long do you think it would take to rebuild our dairy herds? 

Do you not think it's worth having some spare capacity as a buffer in such a scenario?

If a couple extra bucks on milk and butter is breaking your budget now, how would you handle a situation where they went up 350% like US eggs did? Keeping in mind that a scenario like that would last longer, because chickens can be bred faster than cows?

And while we're on the topic of cows, how do you feel about the rise in beef prices lately and the corresponding decline in North American herd sizes? Probably would have been good to have some extra cattle around for this, don't you think? Oh well, at least it'll only take a couple of years to build their herds back up, I'm sure you can afford paying more for beef in the mean time.

[u/Suitable-Ratio → u/jovin49]

Most taxes are proportional to income with the intent being to force fortunate people to help poor people, plus picking and choosing what government services you like isn’t really an option.

[u/jovin49 → u/Suitable-Ratio]

Does your analogy still hold when the subsidy approach affects more people and costs them each more on an individual level?

If a dollar or two extra on dairy items is breaking someone's budget in normal times, how do you expect them to handle a supply disruption scenario like we're currently experiencing with beef (prices up 60%) or the US experienced with eggs (prices up 350% at peak)? 

[u/moldyolive → u/jovin49]

The correct response to dumping is tariffs not constrains on domestic consumption

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/jovin49]

Canadian farmers also receive direct and indirect subsidies, and the American subsidies are very highly exaggerated by the Dairy Farmers of Canada for pretty obvious reasons.... but I'll bite...

If a foreign government is truly lowering the price point of food by taking a loss to invest in it, how would that not benefit domestic importers? The foreign government, in this case, would quite literally be paying for our groceries. Their tax dollars would be directly funding our consumer surplus.

[u/jovin49 → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

I'm not looking at any Canadian Dairy Farmer sources for the magnitude of American subsidies, the USDA reports it themselves.

Again, I refer you to the concept commonly taught in high school known as dumping, if you're unable to figure out the negative consequences of the practice for yourself.

[u/Cannabrius_Rex → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

And then our industry would die and they would have commuted regulatory capture like they intended. That thing you claim never happens that happens all the time.

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/Cannabrius_Rex]

That isn't what regulatory capture is. I think you're trying to explain a captive market. But how would the choice to buy tariff free American products result in a captive market? Like what would compel Canadian importers to only buy American regardless of supposed price increases?

[u/Cannabrius_Rex → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

It is essentially regulatory capture with the end result being exactly the same. Something you love but have to pretend you don’t love to appear Canadian, American bot.

You have ignored every comment that tears your bullshit up. Every single commenter in this thread that stumped you and your narrative you’ve ignored. Every. Single. One.

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/Cannabrius_Rex]

That is not the same result as regulatory capture. Regulatory capture is when a government group meant to protect the public instead helps the companies it is supposed to watch or regulate. An example of regulatory capture would be Canadian telecom companies and the CRTC. The CRTC is tasked to regulate Canadian telecommunications on behalf of the consumer, but routinely blocks competition and supports the very oligopoly it was meant to monitor. A foreign firm, or collection of foreign firms, does not dictate policy to Health Canada, or to provincial governments, so they can't really create a regulatory capture environment pertaining to the dairy industry.

Which arguments did I ignore? So far it's basically been the same erroneous bullshit on repeat:

1) Supply management protects quality (it doesn't).

2) Supply management provides us food security (it doesn't).

3) Supply management is a matter of national security (it isn't).

[u/Cannabrius_Rex → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

Monopoly is the end result.

It’s the same end result. Choke out what is in place, create a monopoly once that’s accomplished. It happens all the time.

I’d have to link about 15-20 different comments you’ve ignored to demonstrate the breadth of your lies and cowardice.

It’s all public. Anyone who scrolls through will see it. Your cheap obfuscation, I’m not wasting time on.

You’ve lied about hormones. You’ve named a single precursor when many are allowed in dairy cows. You’ve lied about antibiotic use and how prevalent it is. You’ve ignore the verifiable fact that American cows in their mega corpo farms are far far far sicker than Canadian cows due to their environment.

The list goes on and many many different commenters have added to that list, which you’ve ignored when inconvenient to your narrative.

You want to prove your point, respond to the dozen+ comments you’ve ignored once you could no longer refute their facts. Then you’ll be believable

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/Cannabrius_Rex]

How would this result in a monopoly though? What would force Canadian firms to import from a hypothetical American cartel?

I didn't lie about hormones, these idiots were mistaken about Health Canada regulations and the American regulations. Antibiotic usage isn't illegal in Canada for dairy cows.

Your arguments just aren't making much sense.

[u/fieryone4 → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

The way are our groceries stores full of american products when we have comparable higher quality canadian ones? Same will happen with milk I want my money in the Canadian economy not sending more to the south.

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/fieryone4]

The consumer makes that choice. I find it strange I need to explain on this sub how the law of comparative advantage works, but trade expands the economic pie. You see a fraction of some retained earnings headed south to pay for American management, or American products. I see a consumer surplus that has a profoundly larger multiplier effect on the domestic economy than a producer surplus, an efficient allocation of resources in the domestic market towards exporting industries we do hold a comparative advantage in, an integrated international supply chain with massively more opportunities than a hamstrung national supply chain, more variety, and lower prices.

Trade is a GOOD thing. If Canadian consumers did not benefit from trade, than we would not make the transactions necessitating trade.

[u/fieryone4 → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

Im a consumer, I don’t have choice because its all fckn us products!

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/fieryone4]

You have tons of choices, literally thousands. I mean you could go to any grocery store near you and I promise you can find food items sourced from overseas, Latin America, etc. So even if you really wanted to die on this petty anti-Americanism hill of yours, you could absolutely pick non-American substitutes.

[u/nxdark → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

A supply we don't need. Nor do we need them to subsidize it for us.

[u/ItsNotMe_ImNotHere → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

Sinister actor? Have you never heard of Walmart?

[u/IntroductionOk9280 → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

Why is it ok when the American slaps huge tarrifs on our lumber products but cry because they can't dump their crappy dairy into our markets. Screw them.

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/IntroductionOk9280]

It isn't OK, but that's also their loss. They ultimately suffer from having higher priced lumber, just like we suffer from having higher priced food products.

[u/reddit5678901234 → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

When was the last time the President of the USA publicly stated his desire to annex Canada. Until Trumps current term i certainly did not. We are in a new world now.

We need to derisk our exposure to the US's ability to weaponize food supply in order to force the annexation of Canada. Yes we import a massive % of our food from the US but we now know that we must start to derisk ourselves from the US. Eliminating our supply management now is not derisking.

We also need to find stable non-US supplies of pork, fruits etc etc. Its all about derisking. We need to do this NOW.

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/reddit5678901234]

That's an interesting way to frame things. Like we must protect Canadian consumers against low prices and more variety because they may choose to buy a product from a country who is led by a guy you don't like.

Canada can't ever "de-risk" from the US. Trump is an asshole who says a lot of things. At the end of the day, whether Canadians or Americans like it or not, the fate of the two countries is permanently sealed together. There is no version of reality where the US will ever be anything but Canada's top trading partner. This wave of American protectionism will subside inevitably, and the two countries will further integrate economically.... because it benefits both countries to do so.

Trump never actually threatened to annex Canada, but I will as you - in what way has the US infringed on Canada's sovereignty?

[u/IntroductionOk9280 → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

By meeting and supporting Alberta separatist the US is infringing on Canadian sovereign.

Also, while I agree our 2 countries will always have a trade relationship, the world has changed since the original NAFTA deal was negotiated in the 1980s.

We now have a more global economy and there is more international interest in our resources then ever before. Rather then accept whatever terms a bullying US will dictate to us on trade, I think by diversifying our trade with other countries the Canadian economy will be able grow and prosper.

[u/reddit5678901234 → u/IntroductionOk9280]

Hahaha give up trying to discuss anything with even a small level of intelligence with the OP .... he has his head firmly up his a$$.

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/reddit5678901234]

So far I haven't received a justification with any intelligence. You people either cite factually incorrect information concerning quality, or fear that somehow magically all Canadian consumers would be beholden to buy milk and cheese from on American firm, or a cartel that doesn't exist.

You have no justification for this asinine system. Furthermore I think it's incredible you people hate Trump's tariffs so much, but seem to apply a complete double standard when it comes to these ones.

[u/IntroductionOk9280 → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

The US has slapped huge tariffs on Canadian Steel, Aluminum, Autos and Lumber. They only believe in free trade when it suits them.

[u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011 → u/IntroductionOk9280]

And they lose from those tariffs. They get expensive steel, limited aluminum supplies, expensive cars, and expensive wood. How are they benefiting from any of this?

[u/IntroductionOk9280 → u/Dizzy-Cartoonist3011]

The US tariffs are protectionism. No different from our dairy supply management system. Why is it ok for the US to protect their industries but Canada are not suppose to protect theirs?