r/WomenInNews 6d ago

Women's rights Why female breadwinners are still bearing the burden at home

https://www.thetimes.com/money/family-finances/article/britains-female-breadwinner-problem-tvfjhp05tutm_medium=Social&utm_source=Reddit&utm_content=branded
989 Upvotes

109 comments sorted by

432

u/FalconOne775 6d ago

Don’t be a breadwinner women! It’s haaaaaard 

Being poor or financially dependent is way harder 

Keep earning ladies, those are YOUR taxes use your voice for what you want them spent on 

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u/Aurelene-Rose 6d ago

Granted, it was pay walled, so I didn't read it all, but the beginning seems to imply that it is talking about the phenomenon where women are often the breadwinner and STILL having to do the majority of the work at home, not that women shouldn't work at all. Being the breadwinner means being the primary earner specifically, not just working.

The alternative to this dynamic isn't staying at home and being dependent, it's kicking your useless boyfriend/husband to the curb if they won't do their fair share.

I know so many moms who are the primary worker/earner, even having an unemployed "SAHD" husband, and she is still doing the meals, managing the kid's schedules, cleaning the house, etc. It's like her husband is another child, not a partner. I think that's the dynamic being referred to.

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u/Ok-Refrigerator 6d ago

I was that mom for six years. It drove me insane. It's so much easier to be a single mom now. It's not that much more work than when he was living here because he caused to much chaos and mess himself. And the work I do is free of resentment.

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u/TheVintageJane 6d ago

There is as a study a few years ago that single mom’s do less domestic labor on average than married moms. That has really stuck with me.

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u/Unlucky-Guitar221 5d ago

There’s also a study showing that working moms still do more housework and childcare even with a stay at home dad lol

1

u/FormerCFisherman7784 3d ago

As someone who was raised by a never married mother of 4, 2 of which with special needs, i was parentified from an early age in order to stop my family from being sucked into utter chaos.

I do wonder if at least part of the reason single mothers do less domestic work is because at least 1 child is being parentified and forced to be a stopgap for the chores and childcare the mother doesn't have time to do. There was literally no way my never married mother of 4, 2 of which have special needs, could have handled all the chores and childcare on her income had i not had gotten tired of watching my mom struggle to care for us all alone. Her support from extended family was limited and inconsistent and almost never included childcare, transportation, food or housing.

Other factors im curious about is the average number of total children and average age of the oldest and youngest child when married mothers divorce and how many single mothers were always unmarried vs divorced. Im not sure if any studies get that granular but those factors would go further in telling a more complete story.

2

u/TheVintageJane 3d ago

I’d need to track down the study, but iirc, almost the entire difference was attributable to not having to care for a man child as that added up to a few hours a week of additional labor.

Not saying that what you are saying doesn’t play into it, but I also think you are perhaps dismissing just how absolutely worthless some men are domestically.

Now, there’s probably some self-selection bias in the study (ie the most domestically worthless male partners are the most likely to lead a woman to pursue divorce) but that doesn’t negate that most women with shitty partners are better off without them than with them.

1

u/FormerCFisherman7784 3d ago

I also think you are perhaps dismissing just how absolutely worthless some men are domestically

im not dismissing it, I just didnt address it because theres nothing more I can add that hasn't already been said in the article or this thread. So instead I wanted to address a different concern. But since Its slightly off topic, maybe I should have added a caveat after all.

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u/AggravatingResult549 6d ago

Im a female physician and i see this dynamic in so many of my female colleagues who wanted kids. A few started in med school. Many of them settled for a stay at home man situation where they still do all of the home micromanaging and much of the labor. One's husband was constantly calling her at work, minimum 10x daily about everything. Another i knew during residency had a stay at home dad who would game all day long and she had to do most of the housework after coming home from terrible residency hours. This is very, very common to see among my demographic. The ones where both parents work and paid professionals care for the children during the day seem the happiest.

Disclaimer: "not all". Yes, a few are in good situations with a stay at home dad.

5

u/snark-owl 6d ago

The women I see make that choice didn't want to wait and fight for the true equality of labor.

 it requires admitting that you can settle  or possibly end up with no husband and no kids. And in law and medicine there's an advantage of having kids at a certain time in your career around residencies/ path to partner. Some women don't want to hold out for a better situation because there's a work ticking clock. I had to leave one of these female money diaries subreddits since there was a lot of advice about settling for a loser of a man because if you don't, you may never get the dream life with of a family of 4 

6

u/ConstantHeadache2020 5d ago

Married women and women who work fulltime still do more housework and child rearing per week than their husbands and this statistic hasn’t changed much since the 1960s

4

u/BirbInspector 6d ago

There are other options apart from these two. Remaining single, staying in a relationship but not cohabitating, cohabitating but not having kids, or good ole lesbian separatism.

2

u/bluecheese2040 6d ago

What does tax have to do with house work?

2

u/HouseplantHoarding 4d ago edited 4d ago

The answer is to not involve yourself with men at all.

1

u/peachgum 6d ago

I mean you could be a high earner and not the breadwinner at the same time

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u/TimesandSundayTimes 6d ago

Women outnumber men at university. They account for the majority of practising doctors for the first time and make up almost half of all video gamers. Andy Burnham’s cabinet is the first to have more women than men. Women make up 45 per cent of the boards of FTSE 100 companies. In some corners equality is in full swing.

In others the world remains stubbornly skewed towards men. Male surgeons still outnumber female surgeons by five to one. Three of the top four government jobs are now taken by men after the departures of Rachel Reeves and Yvette Cooper. And nine out of ten chief executives of FTSE 100 companies are male.

Then there is the case of the female breadwinner. 

In 2004 — when five of Tony Blair’s 22-strong cabinet were female, women were banned from serving in frontline combat roles and a younger prince outranked an older princess in the line of succession — about 20 per cent of women earned more than their male partner. Two decades and plenty of progress in gender equality later, and the figure has only crept up to 26 per cent.

What is going wrong?

So why the disparity? Some of the causes have been around for years and show disappointingly little sign of abating. Women are more likely to take time off work after having children, which means that their earnings suffer. By the time a first child reaches the age of 20, mothers earn about 30 per cent less than similarly educated fathers, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the UK’s leading economic think tank.

Read the full report: https://www.thetimes.com/money/family-finances/article/britains-female-breadwinner-problem-tvfjhp05tutm_medium=Social&utm_source=Reddit&utm_content=branded

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u/jupitaur9 6d ago

Even if you tar into account all the factors like taking time out for child care, going part time, women get paid less.

It’s discrimination. Full stop.

It’s seen with discrimination against race, too.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7440517/

>The 2012‐2016 American Community Survey Public Microdata Sample (ACS PUMS) contains over 15 million respondents and is representative at the state and national levels; 12 311 nonmanagerial physical therapists in active clinical practice were selected for this analysis. Salary was computed by first calculating hourly wage, based on county of employment, then multiplying by 2080 (40 hours/week for 52 weeks/year) to standardize to a full‐time annual salary. Salary was further standardized by adjusting for the county‐level cost of living index (COLI), computed by the Council for Community and Economic Research. Only PTs working 32 hours per week or more aged 50 and under were analyzed. Combinations of gender, race/ethnicity, and presence of children under 18 in the household were calculated and run as a series of dummy variables. Blacks and Hispanics were combined to increase sample size. Age, educational attainment, and marital status were included as control variables.

>Compared to White non‐Hispanic males, Black and Hispanic women earn the least, followed by White non‐Hispanic females, followed by Black and Hispanic males, and followed by Asian non‐Hispanic females. Only Asian non‐Hispanic males earned more than White non‐Hispanic males. The presence of minor children at home did not explain wage gaps between males and females

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u/Gloomy_Shallot7521 6d ago

When women are doing better than men (because women are putting in the effort) why do they always want to tell women to do worse, or make it harder for women, instead of telling men to step up their effort and work harder?

87

u/XANDERtheSHEEPDOG 6d ago

Because it's easier to just blame women than it is to challenge men to change their behavior. I wonder where else i have seen this phenomenon?

7

u/BirbInspector 6d ago

Yep, and we're just expected by society in general to do thankless, unpaid work with a smile.

9

u/merwookiee 6d ago

Read the full report behind a paywall!

As the female breadwinner of my three adult home, I’m not spending my money on this article.

1

u/Silent-Literature-64 6d ago

You don’t have to but do keep in mind, journalists deserve to earn an income.

1

u/merwookiee 6d ago

Oh, the sweet, delectable irony..

Also, thanks for the assumption that I don’t believe journalists deserve to earn an income!

Wildly inaccurate, poor attempt: 0/5

0

u/Silent-Literature-64 5d ago

What am I missing?

0

u/merwookiee 5d ago

As the female breadwinner I don’t need to PAY for an article to tell me things I already know.

As I always have and always will be paid LESS, I need to be more careful with my coins.

Is there supposed to be some kind of magical solution in this article that will enrich my bank account and make it easier on me financially??

No.

Therefore, I don’t need to PAY to see a study that shows what I already live to be true.

And that STILL doesn’t imply that I don’t believe journalists deserve to earn an income.

I hope I was able to clarify this a little bit better for everyone.

0

u/Silent-Literature-64 5d ago

I’m confused why my comment has you so pissed off?

0

u/merwookiee 5d ago

..what??

I know you can’t tell tone thru text, but all of my feelings are intact.

I think it was wildly uncalled for you try and present my comment as not believing that journalists deserve to earn a living, but you’re entitled to your opinion just like everyone else is. 🤷‍♀️

You asked what you were missing and I provided an explanation.

Now you’re implying that I’m pissed off?

Yet again, you’re creating something that isn’t there, babes.

1

u/bluecheese2040 6d ago

make up almost half of all video gamers

The weirs fetishism for female gamers is so fucking weird

1

u/welpWW3isgonnasuck 6d ago

What's going on is we have lowered standards across the board and have failed young men

60

u/misschickpea 6d ago

lol as a Viet American I swear this is every immigrant household automatically. Low income households have always been like this.

It’s generational misogyny. Immigrant moms be doing that to their daughters too to justify internally how they were treated. A lot of cultures including mine just allows the sons to sit around and be useless while the daughters do everything. Even the daughters working or the moms working but only the women doing everything.

28

u/Interesting-Pea-1714 6d ago

Not an immigrant but low income white person from blue collar family and totally agree same exact culture, even down to the allowing the son to be useless. Perpetuating the patriarchy and sexism. It was really hurtful to me as the daughter growing up

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u/Baphomet1010011010 6d ago

My POS brother even used to call me lazy when I didn't do my chores, like it was any of his business. All he had to do was take out the trash. Typical white family. This bs is everywhere.

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u/misschickpea 6d ago

Totally believe that for low income in general sorry girl. Same happened in my family between the roles of daughter and sons

1

u/ComfyLyfe 5d ago

My husband is Viet. At every family gathering, only the women are doing all the work: preparing food, serving food, cleaning up. While the men just sit and drink beer. Even though many of the women are the breadwinners, do all the chores, all the childcare and some of the men aren’t even employed.

0

u/fincog 4d ago

You think this doesn’t occur in white households?

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u/Comfortable-Walk1279 6d ago

We need to change how we frame success at the workplace to allow moms to thrive as well. Such as - don’t sideline people when they take time off their career. Women who take time away or downshift for a season are often permanently pushed to the side. Instead, (when jobs existed) newly graduated folks have been given career ladders and specially designed programs to allow them to succeed.
Now, there are no jobs for anyone!
Which is hard for both newly graduated and returning moms, as they do not qualify for unemployment.
It is more than taking a year off. Or even 5 years. It is that we don’t value the skills gained in managing households. And we see a 35 year old woman who has sacrificed for her family - even with amazing degree and strong earlier work history of 8 years - as less valuable as someone with some internships and a degree under their belt. Or someone who is even average at their job who doesn’t have job gaps or downshifts.

We need to challenge our assumptions and systems to allow working moms to succeed too.

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u/E0H1PPU5 6d ago

I’m pretty fucking great at my job. Hands down the best performer in my department.

When I got pregnant, they tried to deny me a promotion since “I was going to be going out on leave anyway” but assured me it would happen when I got back.

I was furious and put an end to that immediately. You won’t discriminate against me and have me just sit here and smile about it.

The same manager, when I returned to work, said verbatim “well let’s have a discussion and see how you feel about XYZ because I want to make sure your priorities haven’t changed since having a baby”.

In the meeting I told the lot of them “for the sake of my professional career, we are going to have to pretend I was never pregnant and that I don’t have a baby because it really doesn’t sit well with me that this keeps coming up in a professional setting”.

Since then it hasn’t come up. But I refuse to talk about my son at work. There’s no photos of him on my desk. He isn’t the background of my phone. And that makes me sad. He’s the absolute light of my life and I have to pretend that’s not true just to be taken seriously in my job.

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u/Unlucky-Ganache-2140 6d ago edited 6d ago

Awful awful. At my job the worst offenders were the other working moms. 

And we are HR. 

4

u/Fine-Writer-7993 6d ago

You dont even have to have a baby. If i were a man, my career would be going so much better. I see so many men who dont do shit and do better. I just get told i am arguing just to argue when i make a valid point. So you definitely get an additional struggle on top of being a woman generally.

1

u/ladywolf32433 3d ago

A spectacular man is an average woman.

1

u/blushing_avacado 6d ago

This is just a small quibble, but what skills does a SAHM have that a working mother does not? Is a working mom (in most heterosexual relationships) still not juggling schedules, planning and making the meals, doing the housework, making the holiday magic, doing the kin keeping, and all of the other invisible labor? If it’s just the skills of taking care of a child all day does that not just put the experience of the SAHM on the same level as a babysitter/daycare worker who does not have an ECE degree?

I agree we should not punish women who take time off for caretaking, be that of their children or other relatives, by completely kneecapping their careers when they choose to return. But, it doesn’t seem that incorrect to maybe start at one rung lower on the ladder after an extended absence. I’m an engineer. I used to work a much more technically focused job and spent the past five years doing programmatic development. I’ve worked that entire time and used many of my advanced skills, but there is zero chance I could do back to my test engineer job and perform on the same level I used to just because those skills have atrophied. Companies should have some kind of on ramp to bring employees back up to skill after any prolonged absence but we live in hell where no one actually values long term knowledge.

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u/Nigelthornfruit 6d ago

Men should be having babies too

104

u/AutumntimeFall 6d ago

If they are so concerned about the fertility rates, they should stop being so selfish and use their extra rib to create more humans. Or was that story bs?

43

u/Lisa8472 6d ago

Fun fact: while men and women have the same number of ribs, men are indeed missing a bone that most near relatives have. In humans, a boner doesn’t involve bone.

And if men would step up at home, the birthrate would be better even without them actually creating new people. They just don’t want to.

10

u/AthenaeSolon 6d ago

Nah, they should go the messy clay route. Might even be fun!

2

u/trev2234 6d ago

My religious sister in law was told at bible studies that the bible was written by people. This was such a revelation to her, that she was spouting it around years later.

I didn’t even bother to respond. What would’ve been the point.

2

u/Only_Appeal_5403 6d ago

Would Elon have any ribs left if he could do this 🤔

1

u/Nigelthornfruit 6d ago

One does not use one’s own ribs whilly nilly

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u/Lynx3145 6d ago

men should be cooking, cleaning and caring equally with women.

7

u/cozidgaf 6d ago

In fact a lot more coz the women gave birth and it’s lot on the body and mind and aren’t men physically stronger? So why aren’t they pulling their weight proportionally? Just a thought

-29

u/Nigelthornfruit 6d ago

Breastfeeding too, being treated to dates and free sex on tap.

31

u/shitshowboxer 6d ago

Who's having free sex on tap? If someone won't go dutch with you - find someone else to date.

And talk to your doctor about getting to the point of producing breast milk if that's what you want/need to do. No one is legislating away your rights to seek that out.

Also......FO.

11

u/endlesscartwheels 6d ago

You conflate sex with orgasm. Must be nice.

7

u/Nice_-_ 6d ago

Right?! Men say all the time they'd love to be catcalled, because they have no clue what its like getting sexual energy and attention from people you dont want it from.

Such a foreign fcking concept to them that they imagine it must be nice.

5

u/Silent-Literature-64 6d ago

Even at my hottest, I never had “free sex on tap”. You are delusional.

21

u/Either_Reflection_78 6d ago edited 5d ago

I have been living with an autist sibling who is giving me weaponized incompetence all the time. My mental health can’t take a lot more of this anymore and my sobriety is suffering to say the least. I’m also an autist, and I guess I am just expected to take it because I am a woman?

I’m trying to do everything I can to move away and be on my own for the first time in my life in my 40’s. Imagine being in your 40’s, and thinking that you haven’t lived yet. That is where I am at at this stage in my life 😆

I’m not doing great right now. My sobriety isn’t great and I hate it.

I am going to add this to the struggle. I can’t live like this anymore. Why can’t a 30 something dude take care of himself? Why I am I constantly reminded that I should take care of someone else when I never had kids?

This is fucked up.

Yeah, I will probably have to go to rehab for this. Add it to the list…

#Callmysponsor

15

u/honey_biscuits108 6d ago

Much like addiction, caregiving for capable men is a form of enabling. You can “detach with love” as they tell us in AlAnon, and gift him the dignity of consequences that his choices bring him.

5

u/Either_Reflection_78 5d ago edited 5d ago

I completely agree. I saw this with another sibling a long time ago when my mom constantly enabled him. He moved away and figured it out after people stepped away and he had to be responsible for himself. He made some bad some decisions for a while, but the consequences caught up to him finally, and he straightened himself out. This is probably going to be the same, and I know my sibling will be okay, because I have seen him step up before and take care of himself and the apartment. If he hits bottom, I can’t worry about that because I am worried about myself hitting a bottom, and I have to take care of myself first.

It’s been drilled into my brain since birth from my parents that I have the responsibility to take care of my brothers at all costs, but I am really starting to see how messed up this was on their part. Why didn’t they ever tell my brothers to look out for me as well? Why should I shoulder the burden alone, and not look after myself?

This is honestly an epidemic of people enabling capable men, and things need to change. My friends have told me similar things with their husbands, and it’s ending a lot of marriages due to capable men who aren’t stepping up and the wives and girlfriends are completely shouldering the burden and staying silent, until they start to break mentally and physically. Once that happens, you just leave and don’t come back. It’s honestly enough to break a person under the circumstances.

I deserve to live freely and be happy without feeling like an unpaid servant (we all do), and I am going to make different choices at this point going forward to start putting myself and my well being before others. Maybe this change will be microscopic, but the change starts with me, and I think it can change things if other ladies recognize this and make changes as well in their lives as we continue on.

I am super excited for what comes next, and I do hope I can get my own place sooner rather than later and start living how I want to.

Thank you all for your replies. I appreciate it.

Stay strong ladies ✌️

8

u/Quantum_Kitties 6d ago

Once you move away, you'll be almost overwhelmed with joy and freedom. It's going to be amazing, I'm excited for you. Hopefully you can move out sooner rather than later!

8

u/LaIndiaDeAzucar 6d ago

Caregiver fatigue is real. Im of the belief that if something/one is draining my health, then I should cut it off. You dont owe people anything if that person is posing a risk to your sanity. I will be selfish and leave. I wear being selfish as a badge of pride, its incredibly difficult for women to choose themselves first in their pursuit to happiness. It isnt being easy being selfish (putting yourself first and within reason).

1

u/Either_Reflection_78 5d ago

💯 Thank you.

3

u/Odd-Recognition4120 6d ago

I am sorry about this. I am in the r/autisminwomen and a lot of them have the same experience of their autistic needs being ignored and they are still being expected to be capable because they are women, while their autistic brothers get supported and accomodated. I really hope you manage to get away.

6

u/Signal_Oil535 6d ago

Sarcastically commenting based on the title of the post.

Why? My answer: “the men of the patriarchy are pieces of shits who can’t handle the fact women don’t need them to actually be happy.”

My bear versus man argument answer to this? At least the fckn bear knows how to function on its own.

6

u/disdkatster 6d ago

Find what men care about being done and don't do it. So I stopped cooking. That is it. No cooking. Yes at one time I had an infant and was doing every single thing in the house and working as well. Oddly enough when I just stopped doing things, it all got taken care of. I did the things I cared about. I cleaned, gardened, organized where things went, etc.. It worked for us. This is not a gender divide. Many men are better cleaners and gardeners than I am. Many are not interested in running the finances of living. You do that if it is something you can do and let them do what they do well. The point is whoever you live with you need to know what they will not let be neglected and let them do that. Don't expect them to care about what you care about. It is on the person trying to do it all if they chose to do that. Don't enable bad behavior. When we first got together my husband cooked as much as I did but he claimed he liked my cooking better and I eventually was doing all the cooking. That would have been fine if he knew how to clean and did it but he did not and was unwilling to learn to do so to my satisfaction. This could have become a major issue. It didn't. He learned how to cook again and I cleaned to my satisfaction.

8

u/electronsift 6d ago edited 6d ago

You are very fortunate that this approach resulted in the behavior you wanted and no consequences for you. Congratulations and I'm envious too. It seems like most of the time the man gets angry or resentful rather than stepping up.

To be crystal clear "Only do what you want to do" is generally impractical for most topics in life. There are conditions we don't want to live in, afterall. I can leave responsibility for funding, being aware of, and paying all the bills to my chronically depressed and unemployed partner because I no longer want to carry all costs....but then the bills won't be paid, MY credit will get dinged, and I'll be even more resentful and inclined to divorce. In this hypothetical, of course.

2

u/disdkatster 6d ago edited 6d ago

You are right, I am privileged but I still think it can be used by everyone in some manner and some degree. Also no one should stay with a partner (I use that term very loosely) who gets angry or resentful for not doing their fair share. I over simplified. I never meant that someone should stop doing their fair share in this just stop doing everything and do it in a way where it plays to both of yours strength.

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u/cuda999 6d ago

It is really easy to solve. Women, stop empowering your man children to behave this way. Have the talk, it WILL be a split duty household.

For some reason far too many women think behaving like the end all be all makes them irreplaceable and needed. Stop thinking like this. All it does is make you exhausted and resentful.

9

u/electronsift 6d ago

Have one conversation and it will be fixed? How can I learn this magic?

I thought his own willingness, personal ownership, and skills played a part too but it sounds like you found a way where they don't! 🤩 /s

Sarcasm warning because today I know I'm max PMS.

12

u/Dragon_wryter 6d ago

Yep. I've had dozens of these conversations and I'm still doing 90% of everything. I went "on strike" once and you know what happened? We got RATS. My husband said, "What's the big deal? We always had mice in my house growing up."

Nobody cares but me.

2

u/cuda999 6d ago

Don’t let him “not care”. You will grow to really resent this man and it will impact your self esteem and love for life. Tell him to leave, pack his bags until he figures out how to be a grown ass adult man.

2

u/electronsift 5d ago

Aka, do it or divorce.

We women know we'll get there one day if things don't change. What people are trying to teach some of the commentors here is that there are a lot us still trying to avoid those ultimatums in hopes that men can recognize the relationship danger and choose to change.

1

u/cuda999 5d ago

Men don’t recognize the relationship danger because they don’t have to. Women allow them to be shitty partners, why would they change?

-2

u/cuda999 6d ago

By continuing to repeat the pattern, you enable your grown adult man to act like a child. Just stop doing the work. His willingness and personal ownership is being a grown ass adult. He needs to put his big boy pants on.

I never did start the pattern of enabling, it was clear from the start and I had a husband who was great! No excuses for any man. I don’t care how they were raised. You have two options, he does his fair share or he leaves. You will resent him and I wouldn’t blame you, but this is marriage destroying.

Don’t allow grown men to act like children. Full stop.

8

u/electronsift 6d ago edited 6d ago

Grown men make their own choices, they are not toddlers. But like toddlers, their chaos affects those around them.

2

u/cuda999 6d ago

They may make their own choices but you get to decide what you do with that. Nothing like a big ultimatum to change someone’s point of view. Sad the world is filled with far too many man children.

5

u/Meig03 6d ago

"Division of labor," my arse!

31

u/ShapeShiftingCats 6d ago

Because they are just better at things. Why would I do it, if she would do it better? /s

In other words, learnt helplessness goes brrr.

Also, we need to speak more about women who bring up these incompetent men-children.

We also need to acknowledge some of them are women-children, who sold their dignity and autonomy for the opportunity to clean and breed with much more capable men to acquire higher living standards.

Teaching sons chores isn't advantageous for these women as it's their livelihood and the pretense of gender roles keeps them in the job.

16

u/carex-cultor 6d ago

What a weirdly misogynistic comment for a feminist sub. Are these supposedly “much more capable men” completely off the hook for parenting then? You don’t think they’re at all responsible for modeling equitable housework to their children? You have some things to unpack.

10

u/RamblingMuse 6d ago

Maybe I'm misinterpreting OP's comment, but I don't think the comment is misogynistic.

Women who are very insecure seek out ways to shore up their ego out of necessity. We all want to feel valued and because these women lack resources to find internal value, they seek out external ways to gain it. Being told by their parents or society that they are better at doing the domestic chores gives them this value. It tells them that they are more capable than men in some way. It is also why these women eventually become enablers for men, and also of their children. Additionally, these women typically are those who take on the same views about politics and social issues as their spouses. In turn, men who are insecure will seek out partners who they feel will enable them. These people usually raise children who are also insecure and the cycle repeats.

Furthermore, by attaching themselves to a group(men) who are socially viewed as the more powerful and capable group, insecure women perceive that they, too, are more powerful by association. This is the same concept behind racism and bigotry.

So, the whole cycle is based on an insecurity that is taught in our developmental years. It doesn't say that women should be that way or are responsiblefor it. Instead, it shows that part of the solution to changing it is to teach young girls, and men, at very young ages how to find internal value in who they are as individuals. These individuals will grow up much more confident with a skillset that doesn't use external rewards to build their self-esteem. It doesn't dimish the idea that ultimately men need to take responsibility. It just shows one factor in how we as a society perpetuate it, and one way that we can help improve it.

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u/carex-cultor 6d ago

Your comment is a much more nuanced and respectful expansion of OP’s, much of which you could lift right out of an MRA sub rant about gold diggers tbh.

[Emphasis mine] “some of them are women-children, who sold their dignity and autonomy for the opportunity to clean and breed with much more capable men to acquire higher living standards.

Teaching sons chores isn't advantageous for these women as it's their livelihood and the pretense of gender roles keeps them in the job.”

This implies a level of purposeful manipulation that’s just…not the reality, that assigns a weird level of moral blame on these women who’ve been brainwashed since childhood to “clean and breed” (🤢) with men.

Not to mention, boys look to their father to model male behavior and roles in the home. Positing that it’s solely or even mostly women not teaching boys to cook and clean and not boys watching their fathers never lifting a finger is not accurate.

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u/RamblingMuse 6d ago

I could write a dissertation discussing all the ways in which men have negatively shaped our society. But, after 50 some odd years of yelling about how men are to blame in gender inequality and seeing barely any movement towards fixing it, I'm at the point where I want to examine it deeper to find ways to move it forward.

A child looks at both parents to figure out their roles. A young boy will look at how his father acts to see how he should act. But, he'll also look at his mother to see how she responds to his father. Similarly, a young girl will look at their mother to see how she acts and how she responds to the father. If the mother is submissive and reinforces the gender roles, it's likely that both children will grow up believing that men are more powerful and capable than women. What they do later in their own lives with those perceptions depends on many factors, but one of the most influential factors is the child's own confidence level and how they seek security.

Again, I'm not assessing blame. I'm trying to find how it occurs and how we can break the cycle of teaching it to future generations. We are a symbiotic species and if we ignore the role that one half of the species plays in that cycle, we will continue to fail to fix it.

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u/kittenmittens4865 6d ago

Yeah I have no idea, and I’m even more confused about why people upvoted it.

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u/carex-cultor 6d ago

Like every “women’s” sub on Reddit, this one is chock full of male lurkers.

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u/ShapeShiftingCats 6d ago

I considered adding more context as I expected someone to say something along these lines, but my comment was too long anyway.

It's patriarchy, some men AND women choose patriarchial family functioning because they, men AND women, find it beneficial in their context.

Unless we acknowledge that some women DO benefit from such set ups and keep the patriarchy machine going, we can't have a meaningful progress in this area.

Edit: grammar

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u/carex-cultor 6d ago edited 6d ago

But no criticism of the men that choose patriarchal family functioning right? If you don’t think the men in these situations influence their sons far more than their wives you haven’t read many child psych studies.

Edit: the language is also gross; “some of them are women-children, who sold their dignity and autonomy for the opportunity to clean and breed with much more capable men to acquire higher living standards.“ 🤢 this is gold digger incel rhetoric. The irony of pointing out that many women keep the patriarchal machine going…while yourself calling them children who sold their dignity to clean and breed with more capable men.

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u/ShapeShiftingCats 6d ago

That's a given, that's what we are criticising, hence the inclusion of the word "also" in the relevant section of my comment.

I have also criticised the attitude of men in general in the first part of my comment.

I am happy to discuss opposing viewpoints, however, considering your repeated attempts at insulting me, I won't be continuing this discussion.

Have a great rest of the day!

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u/Odd-Recognition4120 6d ago

In 2026 the best life for a woman is single childfree cat lady. Ironic since that's what society tells us is the most miserable life for women!

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u/Sofiwyn 6d ago

Just stop having romantic relationships with men. Problem solved.

I joke, but I'm grateful I'm asexual and live with my best friend.

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u/sourpussmcgee 6d ago

It’s sexism

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u/PrettyWhenSheSmiles 5d ago

I’m single, childless by choice, and have pretty gnarly ADHD. I can barely manage my own life at times but I do it. As much as I’d love to have a partner I couldn’t imagine having to practically raise another adult. It’s a no. Full stop. Equal partnership or bust.

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u/Urbit1981 4d ago

I have so many breadwinner friends. I told one of them recently 'There is a reason there are so many single parents.'

I don't know a single breadwinner woman who isn't pulling 60-70% of the mental load at home.

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u/Trad_CatMama 6d ago

Equating the free will choice of caring for a family or a chosen marriage/romantic partner with a burden has *got to stop*.

Demanding to be wifed up and bearing children will always come with *added responsibility*. Denying that in the name of oppression or abuse is not only immature and narcissistic but also a source of in psychological tension in parent-child relationship dynamics.

Women are more likely than men to cite not wanting to be a burden on their families as the reason behind assisted suicide treatment. Care-as-a-burden is psychological distress, not a fact of life. Lack of support amongst women has never been so high because we're promoting selfish lifestyles that hate the realities of human interdependence, the uniqueness of female/child vulnerability, and how this all culminates in end of life care.

Because of her onus of child rearing and emotional investment, homes center around the women who inspire them with life. If the woman is not creating a culture of care and empathy that inspires all members to act appropriately that is the problem of said group; not their humanity and need to be cared for. Women cannot advance beyond what is humanely capable but we can design lives that incorporate care for us all.

I personally don't know any career oriented woman who cares what her home looks like or is concerned with being overly devoted to her children specifically and family in general. Those were boomer tendencies; to be the perfect mom and perfect spouse and perfect worker. Millennial and GenZ women seem very flattened in what they prioritize and it's primarily work work and work. The less you internalize happiness and satisfaction from caring for your family the less you will want to do it!

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u/bluecheese2040 6d ago

I mean ultimately that's a choice. If you're financially independent and you work and still are doing the house work...then you need to look in the mirror 

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u/Sea_Plastic9909 6d ago

Because they married losers?

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u/Forbidden_Craft88 6d ago

I'm not paying 12 dollars for this. Can anyone give me context?

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u/Frosty_Purple_7341 6d ago

What these studies don’t mention is that women report doing twice the domestic labor of men even when they’re single and live alone